Rain, watch out for that — *thunk!* — glass ceiling
Forewarning: This is a rant. Some facts, mostly opinions.
So the latest Rain/Bi news is that he is newly repped by Hollywood’s William Morris Agency, lending perhaps some legitimacy to his Plans To Conquer America, aka Rain’s Delusions of Grandeur.
I’ve got nothing against Rain and I call his ambitions delusional with no malice — I actually like his songs, think he’s a great dancer, and wish him the best despite not believing much will come of his champagne wishes and Hollywood dreams. It’s just that the guy is so ambitious, so hard-working, that he cannot and will not believe that there are limits.
Yes, William Morris is a big agency. It’s no CAA, but it is one of the Big Three. Some might argue that the Big Three is now the Big Five, but in any case, it’s one of them. Yes, they do represent big Hollywood names like Russell Crowe, Scarlett Johansson, Alicia Keys, etc. You know who else they rep? Struggling no-name actors who play throwaway roles as That Dead Guy on CSI a week after he plays That Dead Guy on Cold Case on his way to playing That Dead Guy on Law & Order: Special Violent Homicidal Maniac Serial Killer Edition. Which is to say: it’s no guarantee of anything.
Rain’s relationship with William Morris may be a big deal for him, but it’s no big deal for them. If he succeeds, they happily take their ten percent and brag about “discovering” the new Asian star. If he fails, they lose nothing. Nobody in Hollywood knows or really cares about Rain right now (and let me tell you, I’d bet money that his minor Speed Racer role will be quickly forgotten), so if he doesn’t hit big, it’s just a drop in their vast star-wannabe bucket.
It feels a bit unsporting to rag on Rain’s ambitions, because lord knows the guy has earned his fame. And who am I to vomit over his aspirations just because he dreams big? But honestly, the guy cannot speak English. You can point to Asian successes in Hollywood (all two of them?) but let’s see: Ken Watanabe was an acclaimed actor in Japan and he speaks English. Chow Yun Fat had a huge acting career in Hong Kong movies and he speaks English. Michelle Yeoh has mad martial arts skills and speaks English. Lucy Liu speaks English. John Cho speaks English (and is funny!). And they all started in Hollywood as The Marginalized Asian Other.
Rain may have put in hours and hours of tutoring and practice sessions but he speaks, at best, an embarrassing hybrid of gangsta Engrishee. And it may not be fair, and it may not be PC, but he’s unlikely to be able to pull off a level of proficiency that’ll get him anywhere near the heights he’s reaching for. It’s unfortunate, because on paper he seems to be the Korean star perhaps best poised for international crossover success — but he cannot speak English. In interviews, he seems so lost and over his head, and his speaking skills and comprehension are not growing much and they are not growing fast.
Some people are just like that. Language isn’t their thing. To contrast, for instance, Se7en seems to be a much quicker study; he actually understands unscripted conversations. Coupled with his decent Japanese speaking skills, he seems to be one of those people who are blessed with verbal facility. Unfortunately for Se7en, he doesn’t have the same status that Rain does — his acting career flopped and he’s not internationally known (outside Asia). He hasn’t had that extra luck factor that Rain has had, being singled out in Time and by Stephen Colbert and such. It’s not that Rain is so much more deserving of Western attention, but he’s had the right timing and alchemy to bring it about. Se7en does seem less brutally ambitious, however — one gets the sense that if he cannot break into the U.S. pop market, he’ll return to his stardom in Korea and be happy with his success there.
Rain, if he is lucky, may land a few minor roles playing the Asian baddie in some commercial flicks and be relegated to the Exotic Villain status. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), I doubt he’ll be satisfied with that kind of marginalization — but he doesn’t seem to get that for all intents and purposes, entree to Hollywood results in just that. Koreans don’t really comprehend the concept of the glass ceiling, because there’s no such thing in Korea. (Well, not for being Korean, that is. Women and foreigners still get short shrift.) But it sucks, and it’s real. To break out of that demeaning pigeonhole requires an excruciating amount of work, with liberal doses of luck and some exceptional skill. Unless he can win over America with his hip-hop dance moves and catapult himself into superstardom via a Zoolander-esque onscreen dance-off opposite Justin Timberlake, I’m not too hopeful.
Rain also requires strong management — which, if we can judge from his World Tour debacle last year, he does not have. How else can he be expected to maneuver the twirl ‘n’ whirl of the Hollywood press machine? He needs more than some junior agent at a Hollywood agency, perhaps a Korean-American who is expected to have an intimate understanding of Korean pop culture and media despite being born and raised in the States with tastes that are much more white-bread Middle American than Korean.
Rain will give a press conference in Seoul on Wednesday to elaborate on the “partnership” with WMA. And if I am proved wrong in my dire predictions, I will gladly eat all my words. Part of me hopes I will have to. Part of me rolls my eyes at that other part of me and thinks, “Girl, which America do you live in? Because the one I live in is one that likes kalbi and thinks Korean women are exotically hot and asks what kind of Chinese I speak.”
Sources: Newsen, Sports Khan
SONG OF THE DAY
Rain - “Still Believe” (jazz version). Remember when Rain did that elaborate BMW ad campaign with its own mini-movie and song? Well, this is the song, in two different styles. There’s actually a rock version out there too, but I think it sucks while I rather like these two — I prefer this one, the jazz, but the lounge version isn’t too bad either (although how is it “lounge-y”? This one’s a lot lounge-ier — loungier?)
[ zShare download ]
Rain - “Still Believe” (lounge version) [ zShare download ]
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Tags: English skills, Hollywood, kpop, Rain, ranty/ravey, singers
hahahahaha!
HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Can’t stand it - need more space to LAUGH OUT LOUD!
HHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
just a touch of brilliance there dramabeans!
hahahahahaha!
i cannot stop laughing at this column.
it’s so perfect - in every way~!
I’m not really a Rain fan but to be honest I feel a bit sorry for the guy. I don’t want to see him fail but not being able to speak English means he will never be as big a star in the West as he seems to want to be. It’s almost like he’s setting himself up for failure, because everything has been so ridiculously overhyped (especially his part in Speed Racer). Not to mention that his popularity in Asia is starting to wane, too.
I totally agree with you re his needing a good manager. If JYP had really intended for Rain to be a “global star”, he’d have started him on intensive English training right from the start, kind of like how SM trains certain people in Japanese very early into their careers.
I kinda feel sorry for him
hopefully he will learn English before he does his crossover 
Good Luck Bi…..
I wish Bi the best. I believe he thinks he will get as far as he wants to, but you are right, his english will be the main thing that holds him back. I admit his voice isnt the strongest , but he is a great entertainer and works hard at what he does. Se7en’s english has improved greatly but I dont think he has the charisma or the ambition. I kinda wish that Minwoo (there I go referring to Shinhwa again) was still serious about trying the US market. His English isnt great either but I think he’s the most talented and better looking of the three.
this cracked me up a bit. I’m thinking the same thing: I doubt Rain will ever acheive a huge career in the US but I do admire him for trying and you know what, sometimes having no ceiling is better than having a short one. I wish him all the best ~ but I have to say there are plenty of Asians that CAN speak English and they can’t break into the big business but we’ll see…
Hey, if Marky Mark and his good vibrations can do it…so can Bi, it’s just too bad he doesn’t have the same level of English proficiency.
I actually don’t like JYP’s attempt at bringing Korean born talents to the US simply because they are easier to influence and mold. He pretty much said it himself in one of his documentaries (saw it a long time ago)…and I just find that pretty manipulative, especially when his very young stars are in America and without their real families. There are plenty of talented Asian Americans who could use JYP’s network but because they will have a mind of their own artistically, he probably doesn’t want to deal with them.
Besides, he made G-Soul work with R.Kelly…a singer who compared his struggles of pissing on an underage girl to Muhammid Ali….and that’s just stupid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSdp_HpzqRs
unfortunately, i have to agree 100% with you javabeans…which is a shame because the guy is very ambitious and does work hard to get to where he is now, and to have something like language be the barrier that keeps him from achieving his goal is really sad…but best wishes to him and hope he doesn’t fall too hard..
I always thought he was a decent actor. Perhaps he should go back to acting in dramas, he was adorable in “Full House.” Can’t help feeling a bit sorry for him, he is trying very hard.
A few of my friends ran into Se7en in LA a few months ago. They approached him by asking him (in English) for autographs and were surprised by his fluency in speaking. He told them that he was in LA for a recording, so I’m assuming he’s working on his U.S. debut.
I think he may have more potential than Rain, but like you said, he’s still virtually unknown outside Asia.
Hi javabeans, enjoyed reading this article.
Nevertheless, i wish Bi all the best in his career!
He’s always been aiming for the sky. If not for that, he would not be where he is today.
This is what I think about Rain in my head written down beautifully.
Oh the last line is wonderful. (though I love kalbi…)
It’s going to be hard getting good reception. Though people are becoming more open to Asian culture (especially diverse areas and among the non holy crap borderline White surpremicist teens) like sushi/maki and kimchi, everyone makes fun of Engrish (heck, I do!). People are gonna laugh at Korean rap (my friend does which frustrates me, so I make fun of her back) or pop. I never really liked it when I tried listening the first time (I only really like ballads, soft voices and Epik High due to their lyrics). Anyway, people might be curious, buy it out of curiosity, but in general, his chances are going to be slim. Se7en sounds like he has a better chance. Too bad the timing is just never right.
Hello javabeans,
What an astute observation of the situation! I really enjoyed reading the article
and yeah, I do agree with what you are saying.
Most Americans can’t even tell us Asians apart. “Malaysians? Don’t you live on trees.” *rolls eyes*
I like that part where you said: “…Because the America I live in is one that likes kalbi and thinks Korean women are exotically hot and asks what kind of Chinese I speak.”
As for Rain’s dreams to conquer the world: Ambition and hard work is one thing, but then there are other uncontrollable factors that come into play such as luck and opportunity. Not everyone can have their cake and eat it too, so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
javabeans, loved the last line! it really is too bad that it’s hard for asians to have a real breakthrough in the united states, not to mention the fact that they’re (we’re?) hard to cast. i hope it changes though!
ps for some reason your last line reminded me of a guy whose idea of a pick up line was telling me he tried dog when he went to korea.
I totally agree. Although I’ve never been much of a Rain fan, I still feel bad for the guy. There haven’t been many successful Asian cross-over actors besides action movie stars from China.
And in America, being Asian usually automatically means you’re “Chinese”. Unless you live in the Bay Area at least, where people can actually differentiate between ethnicities.
What made me laugh the most is that whole bit about him having a dance-off with Justin Timberlake. Yeah, that’d earn him some attention, but is some 13-year old Laguna Beach-watching white girl going to want to see Rain dance around shirtless? I think not. Not to say white people, or any American for that matter, is racist - it’s just that the Asian demographic in America is so used to American pop culture, dealing with something entirely new will be difficult.
Now that’d be a fun essay, not to mention time-consuming - comparing the pop cultures of ALL the Asian countries to American pop culture.
hey, awesome post :). I totally love your commentary. And I do agree with most of the things you said here. And I also like rain, and wish him ALL the success in the world, because its obvious– painfully obvious– how hardworking he is. But I just do not think this will work out for him, and yes, his engrish is a huge problem, but even if he did speak english well, I’d have some serious doubts. It still seems like being asain in itself gets you pigeonholed into certain roles. In fact, the ONLY asian woman who I’ve seen playing the role of an integrated american stripped of all asian stereotypes is Sandra Oh in Grey’s Anantomy and Sideways. Otherwise most asian stars, even the big ones like Lucy Liu– are either cast in a martial arts role or as the “foreinger-who-barely-speaks-english” or as “the mean japanese businessman” or as an “asian american trying to stradle two different cultures” or something along those lines. It is practically impossible to land roles that transcend your asian identity; asian people hardly ever land roles in the United States that doesn’t in one way or another point you out as asian. Not that there’s anything wrong with acting in roles that deal with asian issues (there is definitely a problem with acting in roles that uphold asian stereotypes), but when thats practically the only roles avaialable to asian actors…its clearly a huge roadblock. So, yeah, english aside, I doubt Rain would be able to acheive nearly the amount of success he wants. Ha, my own rant there. CLosing my mouth now.
Thanks for this post. An amusing entry. Loved it so much. It is all rounder, critical but in very objective way and most of all spice with witty rants. Did I ever say that I loved dramabeans, javabeans and all others beans so much:)
Indeed, as much as I like Bi for his acting tough all of it never did I finished it, yes he got some talent but I have to admit he can’t speak English very well. Yet. I like the fact that you pointed out about his language barrier and comparison with se7en. It is a fair comparison and very precise to the real fact. I’m not a fan of both of them but in my opinon, se7en is fast learner in language and he can sing better than Bi even in English song. While he is winning in this aspect, Bi is winning in popularity and acting aspect that can be an advance in US market. But his most big constrain will be language. For an artist to be succes in US market has to at least speak English that is how US citizenship will judge the people. I didnt know much about history in US regarding Asian artists entering US market. I have once see Usher come to his performace and went to the stage and Bi gave him a jacket as a gift. Such a sweet man but he need a translator at that precious moment. If he can cater this language barrier well then he defintely got the wheel. The lucky wheel. Whatever it is good luck for Bi, but I hope se7en will making it too. Not a fan for both of them, but my money on se7en. Being ambitious and hardworking is good but has to be realistic too. Just wish both of them the best of luck.
Applause all around for Dramabeans.
You know, if Rain’s English is good enough to read this entry of yours (without looking at the dictionary’s every 5 minutes), I guess not all hope is lost. And you’ve got it all, this guy doesn’t know there’s limit.
Oh, Sarah… You rained on “Rain’s” parade … hee, hee. I have no desire to wish him or any other entertainer ill. I hope that he succeeds in the U.S. But, you’re correct. Reality will set in…
The problem here is not Rain nor his ambitions. It is the fact that U.S. media still consider Asians (and by that I mean all Asians) as outsiders, and it is rare, if not impossible, to find Asian actors (especially men) in prime time shows or even as leads in movies.
HOWEVER, this obvious marginalization of East Asians (they are all martial artists, right?) is not overtly evident outside of the United States, and it makes sense that Rain/Bi (and more importantly his managers) do not understand the extent of this discrimination (and how can they? They don’t watch U.S. tv, music, or movies consistently to get a larger picture of how Asians are categorically ignored). Even U.S. populations do not know the extent of the discrimination.
What is disturbing about Dramabean’s rant is her ACCEPTANCE of this state of affairs. Mocking Rain for his lack of English, saying that THIS is the America we live in (where all East Asians are Chinese and all of the women work in nail salons, are prostitutes, or are just plain erotic fantasies) is to bow down and be exactly the subservient fools that have allowed Asian communities to be marginalized in the U.S.
There are other minorities in the United States who have broken through the glass ceiling, and to do that, one needs to dream BIG and one needs the support of its community. For example, while the Jewish population in the U.S. is only 4% and while the vast majority immigrated during the turn of century (around the same time as the large influxes of East Asians), they have managed to become one of the most power-wielding “minority” in the U.S. Why? The cohesion and sense of its community, granted the cohesion is surreal and almost cult-like.
And in contrast, we have Asian Americans (about 2.5% of the population) who have lived here for generations, and yet have displayed no significant presence in popular culture. Asians are routinely mocked and dehumanized on TV, to no major outcry (if that level of humiliation was targeted at Blacks or Latinos, you’d hear the protests, loud and clear).
Dramabean’s commentary is akin to the roll-over-and-take-the-status-quo that is the problem here.
Rain’s “debacle” is not a debacle of his making. It is the lack of communal cohesiveness, the individual movement that allows one to bring voices from the margins to the forefront.
Dramabeans rant drips of self-hatred, and her stance is that of a defeatist.
I commend Rain for dreaming BIG. If he doesn’t break through the glass ceiling, well fine. Maybe he will push at it enough so that someone else in the future, someone with similarly big dreams will make a crack, until the ceiling finally comes crashing down.
What I do know is that some Asian chick in the U.S. mocking “Engrish” ain’t gonna be making any cracks in the ceiling. So whatever.
Like I said, I want him to succeed. But Rain’s lack of English skills are a huge hindrance even were the glass ceiling a myth — whether I point out his clear linguistic deficiency using sarcasm or without makes no change to his language barrier in the end.
Where have I said that nobody should try to make inroads in the uphill struggle? I’ve merely pointed out how Rain’s put himself in a situation with inadequate preparation and unrealistic goals.
Bravo sarahbeans bravo!~ (quoting from Bulhandang hahhaaha) this was an awesome post. Those facts are definitely real, true enough not everyone realizes that glass ceiling concept too. I agree with dee, that JYP couldve helped Rain with fluency issues and language wise. Also, like rocketfuel i dont think JYP really is that could of a manager I feel he has not all good intentions with a mix off tainted beliefs.
Nothing against Bi/Rain, I do some of his stuff and he was cute and all. But things is, American pop market is different and Bi/Rain’s appeal to Koreans and Asian the whole sexy shirt of thing may work im not so sure elsewhere. Good luck to him though. But yeah reality hits, it hits hard.
I really think Se7en would work better in the US market, fluency, good looks, talented too. I love his songs, he dance and write music and YG people can definitely bring good stuff out. I hope he does persue his career there, and id love to see him do well. Maybe now isnt his time, but sure enough if it comes it would be good. But Im sure Se7en is the type who can be happy even with Asian success. I also hoped for Minwoo, cause i know that is his dream. He’s talented not only singing wise but also writing/composing and choreography. That’s a plus.
@ Dreamer: Well, i tend to agree in some points you stated here. Well to begin with i dislike prejudice, negative outlook and discrimination. It is totally unfair treatmeant for human being and we should treat human being all as the same. As sad as it be but it is the real world we have here. On the other hand, this post indeed not a negative insight yet to be practical in a way. But i loved your point that highlighted that if Rain can’t break the ceiling he will crack it a bit and someone else in the future will crack it more bigger. He open the door. It is come from different persfective and point of view, while Sarah post is all about practicality on his career and realistic view of it, on the other hand your insight is a wise opinion of overwhole world issues. I like both.:)
Btw: Sarah, your english was extremely good. I always learn new vocabulary from your posts. Thanks a lot for that.
I’m actually a big fan of his. I love his dramas, his songs, his dance moves, and from the little glimpses I’ve seen about him, he seems to be a pretty decent guy. However, I cannot help but pity him over his excessive ambition to conquer US. It IS great to be hardworking and ambitious, but just as you said, he is reaching for something so high and he’s already been bragging about it too, yet he is not equipped and prepared with all the things he needs to have, namely: English (as much as I hate to have English as some sort of standardization, up till now, and especially to go to US, it is a standard), good management, and well, English. If he’s not so gung ho about popularity and actually cares about his artistry, he would’ve cultivated his acting and singing skills, instead of resorting to all means and ends just to get into Hollywood.
Having said that, Bi’s drive to break into US market has to be applauded, tho. His strong determination is what made him the star he is today. And while I do think that some things are just out of reach, I actually believe that his efforts would be rewarded, if not with huge success, then at least he’d gain a small US fanbase, no?
ETA: I’d like to say a couple of things about the business of Asian stars getting into US. I understand how Hollywood is THE IT in entertainment industry all over the world. To be recognized in Hollywood is metaphorical Nobel for entertainers. Thumbs up for those Asian who could succeed in US. However, I actually respect Asian stars who stay true to their roots, instead of trying to impress other culture. Jackie Chan is probably the most popular Asian stars in Hollywood. Yet he’s still reduced to playing clowns, without improving his acting skills at all. Like Bi, Se7en, and Minwoo; they are all great performers. I just hope that they would not have to sink so low just to get that Hollywood recognition (Particularly, Minwoo, who I’m most familiar out of the three and as I’m just blown away by his talents-the guy is just a bundle of talents-. He’s amazing)
Both RAin and se7en are my favourite korean singer…I really hope that Rain will be successful in his upcomnig movie speed racer but i have a bad feeling that it won’t happen. When i see the sneak peak of the movie i didn’t get all excited about it and it seems like i won’t be watching it cause i always watch movies that can make me interested in them. As for se7en, the progress of his upcoming US album is almost done and he done a lot of preparation in order to m ake his debut a success, and ppl are start to notice him in the US. PPl are coming up to him and asking him for autograft…Anyways, all the best in both of them!!!
in spite of my concerns that bi/rain’s big ass ego was getting in the way of his perceptions of reality & thereby commercial success.. secretly i’m fond of the guy & i for one would love to see a korean entertainer make a name for himself on an international level.. & although change is slow to come around in america in terms of ethnic & cultural sensitivity (”chinese, japanese, dirty knees” taunts from childhood still ring in my ears) it does seem that with the increasing diversity here people are becoming more aware of the asian presence in the US.. although he doesn’t necessarily represent the identity of the asian american, i’m still rooting for him to succeed
same goes for se7en.. show em what you got boys!
Bi is an ambition addict. Nothing wrong with that in the least bit. You’re right, Bi’s comprehension of English is like my comprehension of Korean, very 1st grade at best, at least from my experience of speaking with him. I do wish him well and secretly hope (the fangirl in me) that he’ll be the one to bust open the American entertainment industry doors for Asians as Ricky Martin did for Latin entertainers. And if not, I hope he’s able to hold his head high at the attempt and not wallow in it’s failure.
ha ha ha ha ha!!!
That last punch was funny. But in everyway you are correct. Am not korean and I think it will be great if any asian will make it and fare better like Jacky Chan did.
As for performers, I can remember some asian americans hitting it big as part of a group act, not solo - the likes of: Fil-am’s being part of the group Black eyed peas and Sugarbabes. There’s the exemption of Enrique Iglesias, who I know has Filipino descent ( Mother’s a Filipina) but he is born with a renowned father Julio Iglesias and with similarly enchanting voice and good package - talent/looks and management, thus the popularity.
If rain makes it, then I will feel good for him. I’m not his fan though. I appreciate his dance prowess and acting ability, for what I’ve seen so far. I like his speaking voice but am not particularly inclined to like his music though.
I think he has a bigger chance in the music industry, maybe playing on the novelty of singing half-in english and half in korean. I think it’ll be a lot harder for him to break into Hollywood without the English. A dance-off with JT would be fucking brilliant. BRILLIANT.
Wow, javabeans, you’ve certainly ignited some heated discussions. Good for you, even if you had to do it at Rain’s expense. I’m not one of his fans, but if he has a dream to conquer America, go for it. However, like you, I’m a realist, and it’s kinda like Daniel and Goliath. I’m rooting for the underdog, but perhaps in 50 to 100 years from now we may see a more diverse U.S.A. I’m from Canada, and I’m familiar with everyone spouting how they respect diversity, but in truth, there’s still a lot of racism and ignorance. If he’s really sincere about furthering his music career in the west, he should show some respect and learn to speak english properly.
Look guys - i adore RAIN - and i have him to thank (and FULL HOUSE) for beginning my better understanding of spoken Korean -
And I’d get a huge kick out of meeting him - he’s got a great private personality..
BUT>>>>>>>
I am laughing because I know the agency and the people involved - so i guess more than anything I’m laughing at that - dramabeans knows what I’m talking about - i’ve spent a decade of my life working at one of the Big 5 agencies - and dramabeans is SPOT ON - in her shmockness!
What I’m wondering is when did the whole “Engrish-speaking” Asian become a staple in American media?
If you take a look at this James Shigeta clip which was back int eh 50s (?) I’m surprised they allowed his role to speak fluent English.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aLw0D2CxcVI
this column isn’t nearly so much about Rain, as it is about Hollywood and in particular the Big 5 agencies - I’ve worked for one of the Big 5 for over a decade - and what dramabeans is commenting on is US - not U.S. - us, the ridiculous little backroom deal makers at agencies - her column was tame compared to the way the cutthroat agents will tear RAIN apart - and try to REBUILD him into something “American” - that’s what makes this column funny and tragic ! !
Rain has as good chance as anyone - but at what cost?
He’s a great performer - i adored him in FULL HOUSE - I’m a fan -
however, it’s possibe that Rain’s 15 minutes of fame has already come to him by way of Stephen Colbert’s parody - remember IMITATION is the greatest form of flattery. Colbert was imitating Rain - translates intoColbert’s flattery - NOT the other way around. He wasn’t dissing him - he was giving him props ! It was a compliment to Rain. but when Hollywood’s finished re-making him - we may not recognize the Rain that so many love and adore. That’s Hollywood - he’s a product in their hands now. Let’s see how much fight Rain has in him to keep his idenity/persona in tact.
I hate to admit it, but I think every doubter of Rain’s American debut is absolutely founded in their doubts. I am kind of perplexed at how many “foreigners” think they can make it famous here. If something about Hollywood appears diverse… WAKE UP! because it totally isn’t. The average American taste is pretty flat and close-minded (mind you, AVERAGE; I don’t think everyone is like that obviously).
And I feel kind of SAD that Rain is trying to make it here, because I don’t see a point. It’s basically a set up for failure. The American music market has seen so much. Some bad, but there are also a lot of fluent English speakers that are great, so why would they want someone who speaks broken or accented English? I mean, Rain is good singer/dancer, but I wouldn’t say he’s out of this world.
I guess I just think that he should stay where he isn’t above his head.
@ rocketfuel : I got to agree at your point. JYP try to mole everyting and anyone
due to the fact whoever they think can be mold. But check this out. A new young man joined JYP agency. He is born and raised in US who can speak English fluently, can plays a piano as well and look like come from an educated family. Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO_R2q1y9-Y. J
Just wondering why K Entertainment nowadays actively producing music involving young boys/girls. To be more precise the question is why everyone want to be celebs these day? Better focus with education first for me. Like Tablo or any other artist and produce a good music and a real one later. Or if capable do the same both at the same time.
@ Liz : Haha.. Living on the tree, Gotto kidding me. I’m Malaysian too but born in US. Living on the tree? It will be only the monkeys and ‘orang utan’..XD
@ canyayasis : Gotto loved your comments. Definitely true. Read between the lines and think out of the box. The 5 agencies just full of strategy, business and politic. We go to be really clear about that. I’m not fond of his take out shirt tough it is no doubt is hot but I believe he is a decent man in his private life (thanks to you for make it more believable). Just all the company strategy is just a pity to this decent man future but if he willing to take all the risk and joined the lines I just wished all the best. Omg, I dislike politics in business and taking advantage of others benefit but that is what real world are. Just wanna ask out of curiousity, the 5 is SM, YG and JYP is all I know. What is the other 2? Sorry, I’m newbie in K Music and all of it started with dramabeans.:)
CAA (Creative Artists), ICM (International Creative Mgmt), WMA (William Morris), UTA (United Talent), Endeavor.
You cracked me up big time with the “..embarrasing hybrid of gangsta Engrishee..” part. You brutally honest and so witty in your article
Thank you. I finally understand why there are Rain personality haters out there. It was only last week that I found the strength to watch Full House and Love to Kill. For his looks and meager talent, I have been surfing the net for more info on him. It is only now that I realize that his supposed worldwide popularity is but hype from his EAST Asian fans.
I appreciate all the comments. What I was responding to, which one of the posters above me is crystallizing well, IS the fact that in the rant Rain’s art was diminished to “embarrasing hybrid of gangsta Engrishee.”
Many of you laughing, in my opinion, were laughing at Rain’s expense and NOT at the systematic racism that pervades U.S. popular culture. What we should be raging against is the machine that makes a mockery of people with talent and that sees the other as a genuinely dehumanized other.
Furthermore, being fluent in English is not going make things any easier for Rain, so that argument is a specious. There are many “Asian” men with perfect English who have failed to “cross-over” to the U.S. market. But then there are many African and European actors and singers who have failed to cross over. But in the case of Asian men, the issue is more insidious. The reality of the matter is that ASIAN MEN have been and are marginalized in U.S. media, and if cast, are categorically represented as villains, buffoons, martial artists, etc. Worse, they are consistently emasculated.
BUT buying INTO this mindset is a problem, and I feel that the rant posted (and the following laughter that followed) demonstrates one buying into this enslaved mentality that Rain cannot make it big in the U.S. because his English is not good enough or that he is mock-gangsta. That puts the blame squarely on his shoulders, and we should instead be supporting him while railing against the real evil–the corporations that make and break people.
canyayasis, I too have worked at imprints of these “talent” agencies, and they create EVERY ONE. It won’t be just Rain. That is what talent agencies do to everyone who walks through the door. That is not Rain’s fault nor is it an indication of his naivety. Thus mocking him misses the point. The problem is with the system (Look, Gong Li’s big break in the U.S. was in Miami Vice.)
I can tell you one thing–and maybe your experience was different–I rarely saw an Asian brother walk through those agency doors. The reality is that Asian men don’t even GET to step inside these agencies. So the fact that Rain or anyone for that matter is signed by these big agencies is kudus to us, as a people.
I really appreciate this conversation, and especially javabeans for being gracious enough to engage with me and my points.
Anyway, if any of you is interested, please help out at http://www.aaja.org/news/mediawatch/ .
No, this is not a spam site. I hope it is okay to post this here. If not, feel free to delete it.
I admire his ambition. The american music, television and movie industry is certainly tough. Especially since it is dominated by caucasians, however in recent years I’ve found that television and movie casting is more diverse than before. Although it is rare to see asian actors and actresses, muscians etc in leading roles. Which is a shame because there are plenty of talented people out there who would do an awesome job. I think america and other western countries thoughout europe, australia etc should be introduced to more asian television dramas etc so lots of people can see more than just some of the better and artistic films out of asia. Eg House of Flying Daggers etc. I myself came across korean dramas a few years ago purely by accident on youtube and I’ve been addicted ever since. Some of my friends found it strange at first, others didnt think much of it and surprise surprise I found out one of my friends had been watching them for years. But once I made all of them watch full house they have become fans of asian dramas and films ever since.
Failing to be fluent in English will ABSOLUTELY get in Rain’s way. It’s faulty logic to assume that because Asians with perfect English failed to cross over, English will not at all help in the equation. English isn’t the only component but it is CRUCIAL when wanting to break into an English-speaking market. To say it won’t affect his chances is an incredibly reductive argument. I completely disagree that believing Rain is shooting himself in the foot by launching into Hollywood with severely limited English skills is, as you called it, “enslaved mentality.” It’s common sense.
On my side of the world it’s way past bedtime -
but a note to DREAMER
- thank you, you’ve made my point for me -
they (the agencies mentioned and those not) make everyone - everyone.
I don’t know what you would categorize as an “imprint”
CAA, ICM and WMA would be difficult to duplicate - it’s not the numbers, it’s not the address that i was referring to.
and as to your comment:
“The reality of the matter is that ASIAN MEN have been and are marginalized in U.S. media, and if cast, are categorically represented as villains, buffoons, martial artists, etc. Worse, they are consistently emasculated. ”
I believe that the gentlemen Daniel Day Kim, beginning his 3rd (or is it 4th) season on the hit T.V. series LOST - might disagree with you.
And since Vancouver, B.C. is the 2nd largest location for U.S. productions and they cast 80 percent from Canadians - let’s not forget to blame Canada too. and I guess blame England also.They started it all taxing our tea.
Good discussion and comments on this. I’m not trying to pick a fight.
Goodnight to all.
Speed Racer’s clip was crap, so I wasn’t going to watch it. And frankly, if he really wants to come out into American film, I wish he’d gone for something less…. shitty.
As for the English, hopefully someone will give him a crash course in it that will make the “Engrish” go away. Don’t hate me for saying it, because this is most often true, but nothing puts off an English speaking person more then when someone with quite a lot of scenes can’t bloody well speak your language to the point where you have to either rewind or pay extra close attention to something that may or may not be plot worthy. You don’t know how many times as a cashier, I had to stop other customers from being rude to someone just because of a language gap. (Frankly I feel if you can’t speak the language yet in a different country, you can at least bring a friend that knows more then you along while shopping but that’s my personal opinion)
It’s like being in line in the grocery store watching a cashier have to decipher what an elderly lady wants because she can’t speak English past “bag”, “money”, “What’s this”, “can’t understand” and “thank you”.
I tend to let that annoying factor go if, despite the language barrier, they can at least act well, but at times it’s a trial of my patience. I’m not trying to be mean but if people are paying $20/movie (including food cost folks, I know tickets don’t cost that much) the least they can do is make sure they can be understood. I would expect the same of an English speaking actor/singer going to Korea for a job. It’s just rude to that nation if your audience has to decipher what you say every line.
Sorry for the rant, it’s just my work ethic.
Thinking again, i found a lot of new vocobulary in dreamer’s comment and make my mind become more critical in a good way of course and a healthy way for exercising my mind. Thanks for sharing the tought here anyway.
I think personally most of us is not ‘mocking’ per say. But more to critical in cynical method but supportive way of judgment. I think it is fair enough. lol. I don’t know things so much yet I respect all ethnicity, religion and races. Due to the fact I just live in US for a while and come back to Malaysia is maybe make me ignorance in some points. What I can say is they is no definate answer or absolute possibilty in world entertainment. Despite all the assumption we make here some based on the fact another is merely an opinion, it is nothing but an objective view that lead to the conclusion we have to wait and see the result later.
We wish him all the best in anyway. I personally didn’t sense any ‘mocking’ or ‘negativity mindset’ in this article. Yet, what I found here is some rare attitude in blogger’s profile that make me respected and adored this site so much no to mention to the site owner as well. Despite the differences we shared, the civilized action on both parties is what we have to keep it up. Nonetheless, the fact that English is important nowdays is something that we can’t denied either it is in Entertainment world or not. Or it may effected your career or not. US is the dominant country whether we like it or not. I didn’t like US government per say but there is no doubt English is first world language these day. I hope the best for Rain. It is his life which he bravely take the risk either it will make him good or vice versa. Hopefully he can improve in learning the language or if not, wish him all the best in anyway. I really do wish him the very best. Good luck Rain.
In addition also, I strongly believe he can survive in either way. He is the man you know.:) Life is full of risk and it is definetly a learning lesson. Only hope that world view will change for good. Really!
“and we should instead be supporting him while railing against the real evil–the corporations that make and break people.”…. - Dreamer
It’s a shame we can’t just support our fellow asians without having to insult them…
In response to all the commentary that’s been floating around, I’d like to defend the fact that I don’t consider Javabean’s rant as representing a “defeatist” attitude. Th fact that she’s being realistic doesn’t necessarily mean she’s being pessimistic over his hopeful cross-over. She even stated herself at the end of the blog that she hopes she’ll be proven wrong.
Neither is it an attack on his character. Honestly, and I’m sure many can agree with me, he’s being a bit overconfident with this whole campaign. Nothing wrong with being optimistic, but he can’t expect to establish a strong American fan base if his English is limited. The national language of America is English. That’s not being racist, that’s just how it is. The only reason foreigners like, say Daniel Henney, are able to make it big in Korea without knowing Korean well is because of the allure of Westerners in Korea, as well as other Asian countries.
American culture doesn’t necessarily show a specific preference of wanting all our actors to be home grown, but we expect them to be familiar with our social norms and cultural style.
@ Erica, I can understand if you find the article offensive, but it wasn’t an insult to Rain at all if you think about it more in depth. Regardless of whether or not she’s being sarcastic, she’s just being honest.
And on a final note, just because you doubt someone doesn’t necessarily mean you’re expecting them to fail, or rooting for it to happen for that matter. Even if I hadn’t read this blog, I’d still doubt Rain’s possible cross-over, not because of the fact that he is ASIAN, but because of his unfamiliarity with American culture and the language itself. (His affiliation with American Hip Hop doesn’t encompass an entire culture.)
“Struggling no-name actors who play throwaway roles as That Dead Guy on CSI a week after he plays That Dead Guy on Cold Case on his way to playing That Dead Guy on Law & Order: Special Violent Homicidal Maniac Serial Killer Edition.” &
“Unless he can win over America with his hip-hop dance moves and catapult himself into superstardom via a Zoolander-esque onscreen dance-off opposite Justin Timberlake, I’m not too hopeful.”
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! BRAVISSIMA, Sarah!!! You kill me!!! I may need a second post like canyayasis for the non-stop laughing. I’m glad I didn’t read this at work today.
“Girl, which America do you live in? Because the one I live in is one that likes kalbi and thinks Korean women are exotically hot and asks what kind of Chinese I speak.”
~ That reminds me of when I was little, the other kids asked, “Are you Chinese or Japanese?”
Neither.
“Huh?”
That was in the pre-1988 Seoul Olympic days. It’s gotten better since then.
Btw, what’s with the ‘Korean Girls in San Jose’ ads by Google? That sounds creepy. I can just imagine the gross, sleezy men with Korean-girl fetishes (30 miles away!). Eeewwww…
Now that you’ve fixed your ‘cuppa of joe’ quantity options, should I be testing it out?
How many years was Chow Yun Fat a HUGE star in Asia before he made it in Hollywood? He even had a huge cult following in the U.S. for many years before he was finally cast, as a villain(?), in a mainstream movie (I can’t remember which one it was). Same thing with Jet Li.
Some may think that Lucy Liu has “made it” but she needs to learn how to act first. Daniel Dae Kim needs to learn how to speak Korean so that Koreans can actually understand him (I stopped watching Lost, but his American accent when trying to speak Korean in Season 1 was almost unbearable. He did improve a little in Season 2, though.) And John Cho is riding his fame on the comedic Asian stereotype roles (but he IS hella funny, I must admit).
Remember the Margaret Cho sitcom back in the 90’s? How HORR-EE-BLE was that? And
I used to *cringe* at the non-Korean actors trying to speak indecipherable Korean in M.A.S.H. episodes. It is getting better for Asians, but there’s still a LONG WAY to go.
I remember seeing or reading an interview with Thandie Newton once. She said that she had moved to the U.S. and tried breaking into Hollywood when she was younger but gave up because no one wanted to cast her with her accent. — Beautiful and talented Thandie Newton???? With an English accent????? WTF????? Now, look at how many British actors have come to the U.S. (too many to count). It takes time, and it’ll take a lot longer for Asians to make it, too. Maybe Rain will be one extra pebble added to the stack of pebbles, so that someday, the wall will eventually crumble under the sheer weight of them all.
Interesting editorial javabeans. You know it’s a great post when it sparked this type of a response. It’s ironic that we are passionately discussing the “glass ceiling” phenomenon in a year where we are entertaining the reality of a non-white-male-non-Protestant presidential candidate. Albeit it’s a non-Asian candidate… but nevertheless a significant coincidence.
I think the above heated comments underline the pervasive frustration many Asian Americans have internalized regarding our lack of representation in other areas besides the entertainment industry. I do agree with Dreamer that Asian Americans have failed to form a cohesive voice in the community. It’s the lack of banded brotherhood that have prevented us from making a voiceful presence in a country in which many of us are highly regarded, educated and respected.
But i completely agree with javabeans in her comments regarding Rain’s inferior English skills. I totally give him credit for his bravado, ambition and effort. That is never a bad thing. However, the criticism here is about his poor preparation and limited understanding about the underlying mentality of the US entertainment culture. His ignorance of these basic facts speaks poorly for him as a person, let alone an entertainer. To not come even armed with elementary English is insulting to other Asians (or Asian-Americans) who are trying to break into the entertainment business. Rain’s effort may not break any Hollywood’s glass ceiling; but may in contrast, support their false misconceptions of Asian Americans. Those which javabeans aptly mentioned above. I agree- success in the entertainment industry is equal part flash, substance and luck. Though was never a fan, I do wish Rain lots of luck in his quest. I also hope Rain realizes that a healthy dose of reality and humility DO soften the fall, even for the mightiest among us. And failure should not be disregarded but learned from.
@hjk: “are u chinese or japanese?” …. same here. Sadly, still gets the same question asked up till now!
javabeans… another well written post… i must say that you took the exact words out of my head of what i think of Rain’s “quest” in hollywood… i completey agree with everything you said…
Also… i know that this might sound soooo nationalistic of me but honestly why the need to succeed in hollywood? isn’t his stardom in his own country, or in asia if i might add, enough? caause i personally think it is… i mean… his hollywood quest is just too farfetched for me and if years of striving towards that “quest” have already proven really futile for quite a long time now, why the need to squish yourself into the world that does not take you in… its just for me sooo pathetic… sooo wannabe… why not do your crafts in the place which accepts and appreciates your efforts warmly… it doesnt make you any less of an artist…
moreover… really what’s the big deal of thinking that making it to the US is making it big… i dont think so… hello people… the country is going through its recession… its on its way down…. hahahaha no offense meant peace
Thanks, dramabeans
A well written and objective post = )
I have to agree with you, America is a very tough market, even for American artists to reach mainstream status. I wish him luck in his endeavours, along with Se7en and BoA who want to cross over.
I was trying to imagine a dance off between him & Justin Timberlake. I think they should have Usher join in too.
se7en and boa have a better chance at crossing over because they aren’t spreading themselves out too thin doing stuff that they aren’t really ready for….like acting. Se7en learned his lesson and now he’s just focusing on what made him famous in the first place….dance & music. Bi is trying to do too much, but if he just focuses on acting (which he’s not bad at) and nothing else…he should have a few gigs before he leaves for the Army. He’ll find work but he won’t make any major impact on the US market…because there’s nothing for him to make a huge impact on. He’s not like Michael Jackson where people will witness something never seen before…..he’ll just be there. I actually don’t understand his urgency to enter America anymore unless he just wants to be in Hollywood films…and if that’s the case, he’ll achieve that. However, it would be a complete surprise if he gets enough of a following to actually be considered a success here.
I’d soon watch a film with Leonardo Nam, Grace Park, and Sung Kang before I go see a movie with Bi simply because he’s in it.
p.s. I do hope Pharrell gets to work with Boa…that would be an interesting sight to see.
@tealeaf - Luckily that was only for 3 years of my early childhood when I lived in an all-white area (which is now filled with Asians), before I moved to a more diverse city (which is now filled with Koreans). It IS really irritating to get the ignorant “r u Chinese or Japanese” question (I haven’t gotten it in a really long time, and even now, I usually only get other asians asking which ethnicity I am merely out of curiousity). It’s like asking a French person, “Are you German or English? [...because I'm an idiot who doesn't know world history or anything that pertains to life outside my tiny bubble].”
@#17 ter,
Yeah, that was the first thing that I noticed about Sandra Oh in Grey’s Anatomy - just a female doctor with emotional issues who makes me laugh hysterically, not the ‘token’ Asian on the show. I thought the same thing with Daniel Dae Kim in Angel and Grace Park in Battlestar Galactica.
Last year sometime, I noticed that there was a slew of commercials (in the Bay Area — maybe to cater towards the demographic?) that aired within the same few weeks with mixed Asian/Caucasian couples. There was a car commercial and a healthcare commercial, and I can’t remember the rest. But they were done in such a ‘matter-of-fact’ way. I had to applaud the advertisers ability to relflect the real world. You still don’t see many mixed African-American/Caucasian commercials, even though there are many mixed families living in the U.S., but maybe that’s because of the possible backlash from African-American community (? I don’t know).
@#34 Kess, what a cool clip on James Shigeta.
hjk,
Actually…I have a problem with those commercials because they would have an Asian female with Caucasian male. It rarely shows an Asian female with an Asian male….like as if it’s not acceptable for normal for it’s white consumers. I found it annoying.
When I was little (six years old or so), I used to want to ask any Asian person I saw if they were Chinese or Japanese (I probably picked it up from television), but I didn’t know any better. Once Mom told me it was rude to ask and that it would probably offend them, I stopped. When I started learning about geography, I figured out that there were more than just Chinese and Japanese people out there! I felt really stupid for ever wanting to ask anyone that question.
Anyway! Java, I agree with you about Bi needing to know English. As much as I’d love to see him succeed, it’s not gonna happen unless he becomes more fluent. He probably won’t be taken seriously if he doesn’t. In fact, if he doesn’t polish up his English, he’ll most likely become a subject for the asshats that live here to mock, if anything.
To go off on a tangent… America’s full of people that want foreigners to learn our language, yet most of us refuse to learn the languages of the places we want to visit. It’s ridiculous. (If I ever go to South Korea or Japan, I’m going to try to learn the languages first… I’ll feel totally lost, otherwise.)
Oh… I just remembered, didn’t Bi do a concert in Atlanta, GA last year? Atlanta’s only six hours away, but the concert cost way too much, so I couldn’t go. I think there were a lot of delays and stuff, too. Did the concert ever happen?
rocketfuel, I see your point of view. Ten years ago, I’d have found it pretty annoying, too. But since I, myself, am in a mixed marriage (and have many friends in mm’s, both in Asian woman/Caucasian man AND vice versa Caucasian woman/Asian man), I’m just glad that there’s SOME advertising/casting of Asian in recent years. (I’m with the ‘anything’ is better than ‘nothing’ view when it comes that, since the ‘anything’ in this case doesn’t portray Asians as ignorant non-English speakers, martial artists, brainy nerds who wear glasses, etc., just ordinary people like everyone else) Did those commercials air in other parts of the country, too?
#45 Toya I find your post really distasteful and rather insensitive. I bet you and your friends talk about the incident you described using the phrase “ching, chong, ching”. Not everyone can speak English properly, no matter how hard they try, because English is a difficult language to learn. My mother who has lived and worked in the US for over 30 years still has a hard accent and has problems with sentence structure. She is very independent, so she wouldn’t bother asking one of her kids to go shopping or the movies with her just because of the “language” barrier. But you bet your last dollar, she can understand everything you say.
As for Rain’s success in Hollywood…it might happen, but it won’t be the way he would envision it. He does not have a unique quality/talent that would appeal to the American public. Like other Asians in cinema or tv, he will be offered very small , stereotypical roles.
Dreamer, the lack Asian cohesiveness is the mistrusts amongst our own race. I grew up hearing how the Chinese are greedy and Koreans are wife beaters, etc. I wish it wasn’t so, but that’s reality.
*cough*…. http://www.kollaboration.org/show.php *cough*
Some of you are overdramatizing this in a big way. Of course it’s hard to make it in the US as a minority race member with insufficient English, but isn’t it the exact same way in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?
Non-Asians in Korea are frequently cast as villains, English conversation partners or sexy blonde exotic vixens, and it’s the exact same thing in Japanese entertainment. That’s right, whites in Asia are typecast in the exact same roles Asians in the US are, to the t!
It’s not the evil US, it’s human nature.
I agree with you completely.
I hope the best for Rain…but I don’t see anything big happening for him.
I found myself growing angry at the way you mocked his high ambitions. Rain might not be capable enough, but maybe he will be able to do this. And the way you said it made me believe you meant to say nothing can be done about the status quo. OF COURSE something can be done. That’s why we need people like Rain. Little by little, the glass will shatter, not just by one people, but by many many many. I get mad when you sound as if you will just accept things the way they are.
I’ve noticed Asians, most of them, either believe they are not a part of the US–that’s it’s totally separate from them–or those that relinquish all claims to their heritage and community. We’ve been here for a long time, and yet there’s still nada representation from Asians. Why is that? It’s because no one has big dreams, no one speaks up. Either because they don’t want to be categorized with those “Fobs” and be considered one of those “outsiders”, or because they feel as if nothing can be changed and it’s none of their business. The civil rights movement started when the blacks realized it was they BELONGED in America–no one had a right to kick them out or demean them–and spoke against the injustice. But from what I’ve seen, it feels as if no one wishes to break the glass, or to even believe they belong here. *laugh* Isn’t it funny? How all minorities have had some clashes, have argued against unfairness, yet we’re the ONLY one that has not done A THING?!
Even if Rain doesn’t succeed, it’s a step in the right direction. I wish with all my heart that he’d be able to do this, and achieve some success, for Asians in America, and also for Asians everywhere else, so that they have the respect and representation they deserve.
This guy is Asia’s best shot ever. (I know he’s Korean, and I’m not lumping everyone together. I am simply saying, with the US’ view as it currently is, he will have to be the representation for ALL of us as they wouldn’t look at him singularly anyway. Look at Sandra Oh or Lucy Lu. They’re known as the “Asian actresses”, nothing else, right?) He has the determination. He’s willing to work for it, and he’s got talent to back it up. His not knowing English will be a setback, and I do think it’d be easier for him if he was Asian-American instead. That being said, I am a huge supporter of Rain and though I know it will be hard, I’m not too proud to hope. I’m not being overly optimistic by any means. I do know there’s a huge percent that he won’t be able to do this. But I am not laughing at his dreams either. He’s the only one that’s really been able to dream so far, and to go this far, and at this point, I’m rooting for him with all my heart, and I really do believe there’s chance he’ll make it through. Even if he doesn’t, I won’t be mocking him either.
I wish Javabeans would also do so.
Miki, have you ever visited Allkpop or Popseoul? Javabeans’ entry was civil and tame compared to those overexaggerating gossip sites.
I have to agree with Clarice (#62) in that this type cast happens all over the world and not just in the U.S. The biggest difference though is that U.S. media is more widely distributed world wide then any other country. While ‘we’ know that these stereotypes are obviously misleading, other parts of the world and of course certain parts of the U.S. base their reality on these misguided typecast.
Like many of the other posters, I also agree with Ms. Javabeans’ rant about the difficulties that Rain will be facing with his English skills. My only beef is that I don’t like Rain (I must be one of the few people/minority males here that didn’t like ‘Full House’) and to me, if someone were to represent Korea or Asians in general, Rain would definitely not be it. That doesn’t mean that I want him to fail utterly, but I can definitely think of other diverse individuals that would make a more positive statement for Koreans and other Asians.
@ Dreamer
I don’t think you make a fair comparison of the Jewish successfulness in the U.S to any other minority for the following reasons: 1) The vast majority of Jews (especially those in powerful positions) are still Caucasian. Being Caucasian in the U.S, even though your religion is Jewish, does have social advantages/influences as compared to Asians, Latinos, and African Americans 2) They do have a strong cohesion, but that can be contributed by the thousands of years of being persecuted by other groups. I don’t think that any of the other minority groups mentioned can say the same thing.
Also, Blacks and Latinos do have their film unfavorable arch types just like Asians. You can’t seriously tell me that you don’t see it in TV or movies of what these other groups are ‘Typically’ characterized as. I took several Latino film studies class in college and I can tell you that Latinos in U.S. films did not have a favorable characterization for MANY years (dating back to the 1920’s). Even today, the stereotypes are similar to Asians in that they placed into a cookie cutter mold. My question to you is where is all this protest that you speak of from these groups? They are most certain being humiliated (sometimes by their own doing) but I don’t recall seeing/reading these loud and clear protests that you think Asians are failing to do. I can definitely still flip the channel or watch a movie that places them them in these stereotypes as well.
Should we take a laissez-faire ish attitude? No, but we definitely can ignore some of the obvious facts and issues either.
This is a question: Has Rain/Bi experienced the Colbert Bump? I mean most people who have appeared on that show did
Miki, Javabeans said she would gladly eat her words if she’s proved wrong. Doesn’t that mean anything?
We need more people like Javabeans. I’ve had enough of Korean media reports (I think he only reads these ^___^) that report glowingly of Rain no matter what he does ><.
On the other hand, there are over-the-top gossip sites who slam/mock him relentlessly.
So, Bravo to Javabeans for presenting an objective and balanced view.
@ Miki: I don’t think you’re being fair when you’re placing the blame on Asians because you’re essentially saying that WE (Asians) are the reason why there’s still lack of representation of Asians in the media. For the lack of a more graceful way to ask, but are you kidding me?
No one has big dreams? No one speaks up? Way to demean the entire population of Asian Americans living here who have both those ambitions but have been ignored and disregarded because of circumstances they cannot control.
@ Miki, I agree with the post above; you can’t simply put the blame on the Asian-American population for not “stepping up” and fighting for recognition in comparison to other ethnicities. On the contrary, I find that the Asian-American community - especially where I live - very strongly fights for recognition of our cultural roots and practices. Sure we’re typecast - but if you’re not white and have below-level acting skills, it’s more likely than not that you WILL be typecast. That’s just the industry for you, and acknowledging this fact doesn’t necessarily mean we (or Javabeans for that matter) are blatantly accepting that. It’s unacceptable, but I recognize that it’s true.
Neither would I outwardly state that Sandra Oh or Lucy Liu are simply known as “Asian actresses”. On several occasions Sandra Oh and been commended for her amazing acting skills, and on a side note, yeah it’s acknowledged that she’s Korean - just as much as any other actor/actress from a foreign country. The media is always pointing out that James McAvoy is Irish, or that Nicole Kidman is Australian - what’s wrong with the industry pointing out that you’re Asian?
“It’s because no one has big dreams, no one speaks up. … Isn’t it funny? How all minorities have had some clashes, have argued against unfairness, yet we’re the ONLY one that has not done A THING?!”
Once again I find these horribly inaccurate generalizations. I can’t help but disagree, along with the fact that voicing a personal opinion doesn’t necessarily make it “mockery”.
“Non-Asians in Korea are frequently cast as villains, English conversation partners or sexy blonde exotic vixens, and it’s the exact same thing in Japanese entertainment. That’s right, whites in Asia are typecast in the exact same roles Asians in the US are, to the t!”
I agree! Does anyone remember that first episode of My Girl where Lee Junki is having some affair with - what was his name? Carlo? Mario? There were a couple of sleazy looking white women that they typecast in My Girl as being one of the many conquests of Lee Junki’s character.
If we were to remove the race card from this discussion, can many of us honestly believe that Rain’s talents alone will enable him to excel in the competitive US entertainment world? I still believe that this post’s original intent is to point out the necessity of knowing your environment and your capabilities. I applaud Rain for his fearlessness and wish him lots of success. Honestly, that does not force me to turn a blind eye toward his limits. Change cannot happen if the foundation is not set. It is premature to envision world changing acts when he has not even mastered basic English skills. I wish that Rain would slow down and reevaluate his game plan. There is nothing wrong with that, is it?
Lastly, I’d love to see that glass ceiling come crashing down in my lifetime. Hopefully by someone whose success resulted from neither race nor skin color, but from his/her own abilities. Being an Asian (-American) should only be a footnote.
Just to add on, because someone mentioned this earlier, there have been some successful Asian cross-over - not necessarily cross-overs, but Asian foreigners who’ve made it big in America.
The only notable one that comes to mind are the Black Eyed Peas, (because I’m Filipina, they’re the only ones I can really think of.) whose two MC’s were born and raised in the Philippines. They’ve even released popular tracks documenting their struggles, which became popular singles released in America.
Most Americans these days speak, “an embarrassing hybrid of gangsta Engrishee.” The fact that they go out of their way to affect this popular bit of nonsense is much more a hinderance to the natives than it is to foreignors who should be saluted for putting forth the effort to learn a tongue so unnatural to them. As a teacher, student, and citizen of the United States, it has been my privilage to know and work with a great many peoples from all corners of the Earth. Talent, conviction, and perseverance are the keys to success. The Beatles didn’t speak a word of Japanese and somehow still managed to sell millions of records and thousands of seats to an appreciative and loyal audience, repeating the same success globally.
If being fluent in the language meant a thing in this country, we’d have all been happily unaware of the “words” nucular and penintula.
I don’t thing that it’s the same comparison there robbo4. As much as I would like to think, the Korean language is not widely spoken as English. Also, English speaking cultures like the U.S. and U.K. have always been more widely distributed/accepted world wide then any other language. How many other non-English speaking entertainers have had as much success as the Beatles? People like Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Rolling Stone, etc… had huge followings world wide. Can that be said about an entertainer who spoke another language? You’ll probably find very few, but still the point is that it’s not the same thing.
With that said, to break into this media monster machine, you’re typically going to have to know the English language to make. It’s not impossible, but the odds aren’t that good either.
Can the singer/performer/actor RAIN break through in America - not anyone else - but Rain/Bi? That’s the question as I understand it.
I think English is the least of his worries -
2 years ago - the Academy Award went to a song and singer from the Motorcycle Diaries - the song was in Spanish - it didn’t win a foreign language award - it won the Academy Award. Al Otra del Lado de Rio
Of course the next year - the song of the year at the Academy Awards was
“It’s hard out There for a Pimp.”
So language and style are clearly up for grabs.
What grabs the audience attention is definable for about 10 seconds.
Can RAIN compete - it would only take ONE SONG - in any language for him to break through.
In the 1960’s all kinds of Grammys and Awards went to Brazil 66 - they were from South America. Again, NOT foreign language awards - straight Grammys.
In the 1980’s Christopher Cross won the Oscar AND some Grammys - including best new artist - he was privately considered so frumpy and dull looking - his managers refused to let him be SEEN in public - they let his MUSIC speak for him.
the song…”the THEME FROM ARTHUR” “when you get caught between the world and New York City…”
RAIN’s got looks - and with ONE song - he’s in.
doesn’t matter what his country of origin is or what his language is.
I’m only speaking about RAIN - because that was what i understood the topic to be.
Richard Harris - RICHARD HARRIS - the old, old now deceased British actor - smashed through the American Charts with MacArthur Park - won all kinds of awards. It was the SONG.
All RAIN needs is a great song - he can sing it in any language - history proves that.
Oh yeah, and I think to get the Colbert BUMP - you actually have to BE ON THE SHOW. Which is what I’d be screaming to his new agents.
We’re all reading this - while we wait to see if Huckabee is going to win the Virginia primaries - HUCKABEE!!! A conservative that wants to bomb us back to the dark ages of morality -
Huckabee - ! WHY?
The Colbert BUMP!
Mike Huckabee went on Colbert’s report last week and gave Stephen all the credit . Who knew who this guy was?
Never underestimate the value of ONE GOOD SONG …
and NEVER underestimate the power of the Comedy Channel…
I’m still only thinking about RAIN - one good song, one good part - one 5 minute segment on the Colbert Report and the discussion about RAIN and what he woulda, shoulda, coulda will be moot.
Paris Hilton was on Happy Sunday wearing a Hanbok last weekend - no one gave her a hard time about language.
Clarice– I see so many people making that exact argument — “it’s not just the US, its true in EVERY country.” I used to make the same argument, but I realized this kind of thinking didn’t sit very well at all because its so incredibly defensive. If we were talking about a caucasian actor trying to make it in korea, of course there would be a glass ceiling there, and it would deserve the same amount of criticism. But that’s a whole different conversation; right now we’re talking about the United States, and just because Korea or some other foreign country does the same thing doesn’t justify or in any way excuse the glass ceiling in the US. Nobody’s singling out America and labeling it EVIL; we’re just discussing an unfortunate and stupid reality that exists here, and the fact that its prevalent in other countries doesn’t make it any less unfortunate and stupid in this country, period. Its not an attack on America, and its not supposed to be a “SO? YOU DO IT TOO! YOU DID IT FIRST!” kind of argument.
And, plus, somwhere along the way I realized the US isn’t Korea or some other highly homogenous country where its still common to see people stop and gawk at the sight of foreigners. The American population is the most diverse in the world (actually, I don’t know that, but atleast ONE of the most diverse). A huge chunk of the minority population in the US are 100% American, whereas in korea nearly the entirety of the minority populations are foreigners. So I expect to see less of that kind of ignorant “there’s us and then there’s them” depiction of minorities in the US, because minorities ARE PART OF “US.” Koreans get to see themselves as normal integrated people in Korea, and I don’t see why I shouldn’t expect to see Americans like myself depicted as normal integrated people in my own country (example being Sandra Oh). Unfortunately, it doesn’t get reflected in the media often enough, which makes it seem as if all asians are foreigners or somehow separate from “normal” Americans just because they’re asians. It may be the case that your race determines whether you’re korean or not in Korea, but thats definitely not the way it goes America. And we’re talking about the rule, not the exceptions.
With that said, Bi obviously isn’t an American and definitely not an english speaker, so I don’t have high hopes for him. I mean, Americans themselves have a hard time enough making it as it is when they’re asian. With that said, I hope, like Javabeans, that I eat my words.
As many a lad band and David Beckham will tell you, you do not arrive in the States as a pop star; you arrive as merely pop. America exports its pop culture, because it prefers not to import it.
Racial politics aside, why would I put up posters of Rain if I grew up on Justin?
ha ha, paris hilton. actually she’s not such a great example because they might be nice to her to her face but all the press about her in korea is negative. like she’s disrespectful and rude and stuff. some people like her but most of the public opinons are negative
@ 60
Well, allisgood, that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it, but please do not make insinuations that I am racist. That is crossing the line. Just because I get annoyed doesn’t mean I treat the person with any less respect then I do anyone else. And no I don’t have friends that make those joke, I did have a coworker that did and he was Chinese himself.
In addition I also said I have the same mindset for an English speaking person going to a non-English country for a job. It’s not me hating on whoever the hell you apparently got it in your head I supposedly hate.
I personally would not go to Japan with little knowledge of Japanese and expect the job / populous / world to treat me kindly. It just doesn’t work that way. We may wish it did, but it doesn’t.
@canyayasis: “Paris Hilton was on Happy Sunday wearing a Hanbok last weekend - no one gave her a hard time about language.”
Please read baffomet’s post: “English speaking cultures like the U.S. and U.K. have always been more widely distributed/accepted world wide then any other language.”
I’d like to point out an article from last year, which still applies today:
Missing: Asian-American pop stars
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/04/news/singer.php
I can’t find another article that was related to this too.. It was also well written.
Syall - that is a great article! thank you so much.
I’ve passed it on to my music friends - well articulated article.
re: Paris - i just found her presence on Happy Sunday really ODD!
as they wrote - she is someone who is only famous for being famous -
It was a strange booking for ANY SHOW on ANY continent!
But i stand by my personal experience in L.A. that the right song - can break through any ceiling.
alynizzle, i’m all for dramabeans being honest but then honesty laced with sarcasm is equal to being insulting.
All I can say at this point is, I LOVE this post. My thoughts exactly, but you phrased everything so nicely and coherently.
alynizzle: Sarcasm + honesty =
http://popseoul.com/category/rain-bi/
http://www.allkpop.com/index.php/tags/tag/bi
@Baffomet: “I don’t think you make a fair comparison of the Jewish successfulness in the U.S to any other minority for the following reasons: 1) The vast majority of Jews (especially those in powerful positions) are still Caucasian. Being Caucasian in the U.S, even though your religion is Jewish.”
This is patently untrue. Most Jews - do not consider themselves “Caucausian,” which is the foundation of the creation of Israel (land of Semites) - as well as Irish Catholics who immigrated to the U.S. came into the country facing tremendous xenophobia (from predominantly Protestants population). They managed - a mere 1-2% of the population - to assimilate by changing names (1930s-1960s Hollywood being a classic example) and by even getting nose jobs (NY constituency, especially). Also many other cultures have suffered from centuries of discrimination as well, so I doubt if cohesiveness is an obvious by product of this.
It seems - and I am happy about it - that my comments have sparked a discussion about how we view ourselves. Yes, I have glanced at PopSeoul and have had my stomach churn with disgust at their fluff. If I want bitchiness, I prefer Perez Hilton. What I found offensive about Dramabean’s post (and the subsequent laughter, and almost salivating glee over Rain failing that followed) is the ‘I am American and I know so much more about Asian delusions about cross-over ’cause we all know that “X” (Rain or whomever) has not a chance in hell and will probably fall on