@ belleza

“I watch certain shows with cultural filters on”

This is indeed my fun and joy in watching different Asian dramas. Watching KDrama is like eating your warm spicy beef rib soup (rich and favoursome), whereas JDrama tastes like cold buckwheat noodle (quality and healthy but somewhat lacking in favour) and TDrama, Din Tai Fung dumpling (yummy but you can’t eat too much). In fact, I love listening carefully to the Korean to pick up the Chinese words that are used in the dialogue. I am actually very surprised to find that the Korean pronounciation of most Chinese words are closer to Cantonese than Mandarin. Very tempted to learn Korean.

Dang Jang Geum is the ideal Chinese daughter and Song Seum Heon could easily be the Fith Heavenly King, so true!

#148 Belleza — Would you believe that my HS had a Cordy-like queen bee? The zips and ziggers she would throw at people were jaw droppingly funny and cruel at the same time. I’m not a huge buffy fan either. My favorites are Faith, the Mayor, Spike and bad alternative world Willow.

I found the relationship between the Mayor and Faith to be particularly touching in a way that I never felt between Giles and Buffy.

Joss Whedon is really like “my yoda, man”. The show was unbelievable for its depth and quality of writing and is my benchmark for a kickass TV series much like Resurrection is my benchmark for great kdrama.

BTW how are you able to put these filters on while viewing the different country dramas without having lived in the country? For instance I can put my Korean filter on since I’m Korean, have visited Korea a few times and am surrounded by relatives who reinforce the Korean culture lest I should ever forget I’m Korean. In addition, I can put on my American filter which comes more naturally since I grew up here. I don’t think I can do that with Japanese, Taiwanese or Chinese dramas despite having friends who are from those cultures since I’m not familiar enough with any of the countries to understand the cultural nuances. If I watch movies or drams from those countries I often feel more like an anthropologist observing the natives rather than feeling immersed in what is going on.

Edit: “the last 30 minutes or so had been tearing up so badly”…should read “the last 30 minutes or so had ME tearing up so badly.” Jeez. Learn to write, nom, nom, nom.

Ok, so I’ve been reading this blog for almost a year now and commenting for months and this is the first time I realize there’s a “Rant and/or Rave” line above the comment form. *HEADDESK*

@159 Nom Kitteh
This is going to be long *cracks knuckles*

You know, I actually never discussed ZK with anyone before…Or rather, I “talked” with a friend…and by talk, I meant I said how awesome it was, but I didn’t go into details. You did a great analysis and I have to agree with you about the phylosophical aspect of the drama. My main problem is, it started crackish/slapstick-y and turned out to be anything but (both the drama AND the special). I didn’t expect that! I…tend to be a viewer “by mood” in that if I want to watch a silly rom com, I’d watch one and I’d rather avoid surprises, same thing for dark dramas or dramas that you need to turn your brain off/on in order to watch.

Now with Kdramas you more or less know where you stand (ie even the crackiest drama ever is going to insert melodramatic elements at some point so I’m usually prapared for the worse), with Jdoramas lines are a little more blurred, but I’ve never been so caught unawares before, not until ZK. Which hmm I tend to see as a bad thing. It’s actually one of my dramas ever, but…if I had known I was going to end up in tears, I may have saved it for some other time. That said (and God, I’ve gone off a tangent again, sorry), what I meant to say is, I wasn’t prapared for it to be so “layered”.

Hm, Soshi’s vs Tenjo’s love. I do think Knigh’s love was “real” or as real as it could get. It may not have started this way, but when his self-awareness started kicking in and slowly taking over the programming, then everything changed and he -in fact- started being as humanly real he could be. *I* started seeing him more like a human, but I tend to think that self-awareness and the ability to feel compassion and to think for yourself and make decisions, free will if you want, is what makes people “human”. This is fiction of course, but if it wasn’t, I’d totally think Tenjo was “human”: he may have robotic parts, but if he’s “thinking” and has emotions, he ceases to be a machine, imho. In his case, even more so for we had proof of how “human” he is for he repeatedly sacrified himself for the happyness of the one he loved (And another tangent: ACK, this is Battlestar Galactica all over again. I’m not equipped for such indeph discussions anymore!).

As for Soshi’s love, I may be a little biased here. I must admit, at the beginning and for most of the dorama, I didn’t really see much of his feelings for Riiko. What you said is true: he had problems and all, but he needed Riiko more for his career than because he loved her or because he needed her in a more instinctual way. He was a little jealous, yeah, and maybe he was even attracted, but…oh I don’t know, I could see he was pulled toward her, but it just didn’t *click* for me. Not at the beginning. And even when he found out Tenjo was a robot, his reaction came across as disbelieving in a “omg-how-can-she-love-a-thing-instead-of-me” way than of a devasted man who finds out the woman he loves actually loves someone else (hmm, I don’t know how to explain this. I’m oversimplifying cos my Eng vocabulary sucks): I felt it (Riiko’s loving Tenjo) was more about *him* Soshi than about *her* and her feelings when it was supposed about her really. Does what I’m trying to say make *any* sense? Anyway, in the special it was very clear Soshi loved Riiko so much so he backed down. I actually think Soshi needed Riiko most in the special. LOL, we totally see it differently!

But I have yet another problem with the whole Soshi vs Tenjo thing. And before I go any further, I’m warning you: I AM biased, my cultural background and my past experiences show. In the dorama and most especially in the special (ahah, alliteration!), it seemed the whole point of the story was to oppose love = family (hence the Soshi/Riiko human/human pairing) vs love = no family (and its respective Tenjo/Riiko robot/human pairing) and that the first is “better” than the latter. As if the love between people who are similar was better or more real than the love between people who are not similar? Come to think of it, I have two problems actually: 1)that if you love someone, then it is imperative to form a family cos that kind of love is “right” and good and 2)love between people who are different is wrong (and gah, I might be overanalysing this, but if you squint there might be a message about human & gay rights. Sorry, my a-religious and scifi reader/watcher roots are showing!). Yes, yes, YES, the dorama was most likely not meant to be read this way (I’m aware family is one of the most important things in Japan), and it is just fiction to be taken lightly, but I’m just telling you how I felt while watching it.

I really wanted to see more of Namikiri-san and his creator/creation father/son relationship. That was a great plot point that could’ve been explored, but was put aside to focus more on the love triangle. Meh!

I WILL watch Smile. I didn’t think the subs were out yet? I also want to watch the dorama with Horikita maki and both the series with Fujiki Naohito. ACK, I need a day with 48 hours.

Whew. that was long!

@161 Loved this Open thread!

Denial can be a good thing! *nodnod*

Samsookie@76: I’m not completely familiar with copyright matters but your tangerine analogy – hehe – doesn’t work for 2 major reasons:
1) Tangerines were on private property, onto which our spunky girl trespassed, as opposed to falling off trees and rolling onto a public road.
2) Said spunky girl sold pilfered tangerines, as opposed to just eating them or sharing with friends.

Copying something aired on TV is not illegal, in and of itself. (And fan cam recording of newly-released movies is a completely different story – don’t even get me started). Heck, if that were the case, VCRs would’ve never been able to record, TiVo would’ve never made it to market, and DVR would never exist (well, for viewers anyway). It’s what someone DOES with copied material which crosses the line. Any sort of profiteering is a no-no. However, I am free to buy a DVD, watch it and then pass it around to my friends to enjoy (as we do with books). It’s been a while since I paid attention to the FBI warning at the start of every movie but recall that the wording is very interesting.

Anyway, I absolutely refuse to patronize streaming sites except dramafever. I gratefully accept raws and subs provided, out of sheer generousity, by people more tech-savvy than I. And only wish that I could help expose and burn all the counterfeit stuff here in NYC. Please, please, don’t buy those crappy counterfeit DVDs. As one of my friends said, the horrible subs are enough to turn a viewer against a drama!

Yippie yigh yay minisirloin burgers. Yippie yigh yo minisirloin burgers. Ya!!

Saw the first episode of Shining Inheritance/Brilliant Legacy, and OMG I already got strong Jandi/Jun Pyo 2.0 vibes. Han Hyo Joo’s character is like a rich version of “the weed girl”, right down to that pro forma right hook on snobby Lee Seung Gi. Actually interesting to see Han Hyo Joo get to play a “bright” girl BTW, but you can tell she’s more comfortable with the quieter, more serious bits in the episode. And Lee Seung Gi’s sporting a perm that’s just short of full-on curly. He’s just so . . . SNOBBISH (and frankly he pales in comparison to Bae Soo Bin, who’s a vision of droolworthy gorgeousness worthy of his Jumong days.) The interesting thing about this show is that the undercard of Bae Soo Bin and Moon Chae Won (not long enough in the episode btw) could upstage the leads. This is supposed to be Cinderella story where the mom will turn cruel. But Kim Mi Sook’s acting has such strong authority that . . .I don’t know . . . I think I could see myself empathizing with her too. But, yeah, this is 120% SBS Weekend drama territory . . .starring Jandi and Jung-pyo. Hopefully this is dishy, trashy fun.

@nycgirl,

“The zips and ziggers she would throw at people were jaw droppingly funny and cruel at the same time.”

Oh, she and I would have been best friends. Nah, we would have been blood thirsty rivals. “Bring it Cordy!!” “Oh I brought it Belleza” “Ya?” “Oh yaa . . .XANDER get over here!!!”

“My favorites are Faith, the Mayor, Spike and bad alternative world Willow.

I was very upset at Joss about Tara’s death. It’s one of those things about Joss. He never spares the audience and that’s what makes his shows so good, but still that one hurt most of all. I’m still mad at him over it. But I loved Evil Willow and her swift justice on that guy. Just a very visceral and honest response from Willow.

“If I watch movies or drams from those countries I often feel more like an anthropologist observing the natives rather than feeling immersed in what is going on.”

The fun part is when you apply a cultural filter that doesn’t match the exact, original cultural context of the story. For example, when I watched Sympathy for Lady Vengeance from a Catholic Latino/New World Catholic perspective, then all the blood, Saint/Idol imagery, and maternal imagery really spoke to me in a way you don’t read in reviews. (Lady Vengeance would work beautifully if it were adapted in that context.)Same with I’m Sorry I Love You — Lee Kyung Hee characterized men like Miguel Unamuno or Octavio Paz writes about men — solitary, NADA code, and above all, confronting the solitude, the blood bonds, and God as irreducible, indomitable Men.

Some shows also flip on the Hallyudar. One of those shows is Return of Iljimae. For me it’s, for all intents and purposes, a jidaigeki. It’s just so . . .”Japanese.” The way it’s shot (using the long senses to negotiate depth and geometry, natural lighting, emphasis on intimate outdoor spacing, the color motifs), the quiet pacing, the music, the persistent use of voice-overs to both frame story and create a sense of authority, the situational approach to the characters and its somewhat episodic presentation. So, part of me is treating this like a taiga in all its stately delicacy, and I’m really enjoying that.

TW-dramas have been adapting more Korean-style comedies in the past few years (a la Full House.) But I feel what gets lost in translation — and why it’s difficult to sustain just one screwball dynamic through 20 episodes in TW-drama — is that we can’t really use honorifics or its implied heirarchy within the context of private relations. It’s not just rich guy/poor girl; it’s rich guy with an “older brother” or “authoritarian” opposite poor girl with a “younger sister” or “deferential” vibe. There’s just more screwball to screw with in K-drama. Everybody is pretty much on equal footing in TW-drama, regardless of money, and so differences in personality get resolved pretty early. There’s just enough “pride and prejudice” to burn through before the couple meets cute. At the same time, if the female character is older than the guys, you don’t get a “noona” vibe either. I never picked it up during Barbie+F4 MG, but I do with GHS and F4 BBF. It’s not written so much on the script, but it’s there in their dynamic, as it was between Rain and Hye Kyo in Full House.

I tend to watch Korean romances from a soap / daytime drama viewpoint. And the key thing about soaps, which most critics do not understand, is that the most important aspect of storyline is the couple and connection between the couple with audience. Assuming that writers have freedom to do whatever they want with the actors (which in daytime is obviously not true since hierarchy is pretty strong), what you watch are a series of romantic triangles that operate in Narrative Darwinism in continuous, ruthless entropy.

Understanding this is important, because it shapes the discourse of the show. If you ever visited a high-volume soap thread, you’ll of course see a lot of shipping and “OMG he’s so HAWT!!!” posts. However, you’ll also notice something else. There’s an intense preoccupation with the quality of acting and how the characters are written, and both are argued and discussed with an intensity that rivals fanboy arguments over Stars Wars and Star Trek. Why is this? Because soaps survive on the connection between couples and the audience, and acting is essentially about connection between the performance (character) and the observer. There’s discussion of presence, star quality, line deliveries, believability, emotional range, etc. Moreover there’s an intense relationship between actor and audience that follows them after they leave soaps. If you watch Daytime TV Award shows and compare it with MBC/KBS/SBS shows, you’ll notice the same vibe. In most cases, the awards are somewhat arbitrary, but it’s huge fan service and you have audiences cheering wildly for their favorite “supercouples” or leads. Finally, it also creates a situation where, when watching a series of shows or storylines, the conversation invariably focuses on the actors, the couples, and how the story slips into a wider, more far-reaching conversation about that actor’s body of work, your viewer-actor relationship with said actor, and whether the writing presents a progression or regression for that actor. There’s snark; there’s shipping; there’s huge ship wars; there’s intense fondness and connection.

Most J-dramas are not written as a soap. Even if it’s a melodrama loaded with plot twists, the plots are treated with a linear certainty with which the characters must abide (which is why Japanese attempts at K-drama are kinda . . . uhhh . . . O_o) That means the kind of viewing experience, discussion and community is also different than what goes in K-drama. Yes, there’s still identification with idols and discussion about acting or characterization. But the most important thing becomes the plot, the details within the story, themes and so on. The novelty and deliciousness of the whole affair.

In that regard, it’s not merely about deconstruction about cultural moires with regards to drama. It’s also deconstruction about how people watch, value, and congregate amongst each other from these shows. What happens is that people who watch K-drama or J-drama monogamously, and then switch over, they experience two things. First, it’s like nothing they’ve seen before and it’s a big shock to their viewing style. And second, when they share their love of drama within the community, they find it radically different too. They might like it; they may hate it; but they’ll have their preferences. Above all, the shift in styles means that it’s challenging to blog about J-dramas in the same way that people want to blog about K-dramas . . .and vice versa. At the same time, it starts to cohere the valleys of diversion between the two different camps (and TW-dramas as well) and at the same time provides contrapuntal threads of discussion in regards to a single show. Which leads to the most crucial question of all . ..

What would Cordy do? Hello!! She’d watch more drama.

@166 Belleza

I know this is not the time, what with the mess of JJH and all that, but I gotta ask: Stars Wars and Star Trek? ^_^ Me? I like ST! *g*

“The fun part is when you apply a cultural filter that doesn’t match the exact, original cultural context of the story. ”

Funny you’re bringing this up now. In one of my previous comments here I mentioned my experience with Zettai Kareshi and how my roots made me see things in it that were probably never meant to be read like that.

Anyway, you know, I’ve never thought of comparing Kdramas to daytime soap operas. I have to admit, I’m a little judgemental when it comes to (Western) soap operas, and I did try to watch a few to see if I changed my mind, but I couldn’t. I was bored out of my mind! And yet, after reading your analysis about Kdramas, I can’t help but agree with you. The connection with the characters, the interest for their love stories or love triangles…everything is all there. How didn’t I see that before? And most importantly, how come I love Kdramas and yet I can’t watch daytime soaps? Hmm.

“Yes, there’s still identification with idols and discussion about acting or characterization. But the most important thing becomes the plot, the details within the story, themes and so on.”

Huh. I’ve just took a few minutes and thought back to all the reviews I’ve read or written and all the discussions I’ve had with my friends and my drama-partner, and…whoa. You are so right! I didn’t even notice we did that. It’s like when we talk about Jdorama or a Kdrama, we watch it with different eyes, we have a different mindset for each “genre” (please ignore my wrong use of that term). It’s not a huge difference, but it’s there. It’s definately a subtle shift, at least it is for me, but I’m so surprised I didn’t see it at all. Thank you for writing your thoughts about this! I really love reading your comments…so challaging and thought-provoking! Thank you!

@ Samsooki : something you said about relationships in the previous open thread (post #202, in fact, if you want to look it over) made me think Que Sera Sera might be a drama to your taste. Due to the nature of the drama and some controversial scenes I’m not sure if you’d dig it completely, but it fits your description of the course of realistic relationships. And it’s awesome — which you would(will) definitely agree with after finishing it. I recommend you to add it to your list =)

@170, Stee-

Wow, you went back to Open Thread 79, Post 202? LOL.

Que Sera Sera scares me, actually. I’ve heard words like “intense” and “not for everyone.”

I have no idea what it is about, I’ve tried my best to avoid pre-conceptions and not read spoilers. But what is life except living? And what is living except experiencing everything we can?

I will add it to my list.

@171, Sere -

Yesterday was a beautiful day, so first we went to an outdoor cafe for breakfast with my wife and my wife’s brother, then we went shopping, then got Korean food for lunch in New Jersey (where there is a sizable k-population), then went Korean grocery shopping (bi-bi-bigs and melona bars for everyone!) then we came back home and then immediately went out again to the golf course and hit some balls, then went to an outdoor restaurant by the shore. By the time we got back, we were completely wiped out, and I fell asleep without watching Temptation of Wife.

A whole day without K-dramas or movies! LOL. I missed 2-3 episodes of Temptation of Wife, but that’s a worthwhile tradeoff.

-Samsooki

@Sere,

“How didn’t I see that before? And most importantly, how come I love Kdramas and yet I can’t watch daytime soaps? Hmm. ”

Narrative entropy. The longer a soap runs, the more the narrative thread breaks down. Eventually, it becomes ice. To avoid this, you have to bring in new characters, change up the writing team, or do a reboot of the story. Or, you can do telenovelas. Telanovelas are limited-run soaps with complete storylines, and Korean telanovelas run 2-3 months. Part of the novelty with telanovelas is that you can indulge in what-if matchups and compare chemistry between your favorite stars. Which is what we do here.

Also, the fact that 95% of the time, we know who ends up together in the end, also changes how we watch the show. In a sense, K-drama are kinda like the pro wrestling of love.

You guys are love. Seriously!

@Samsooki
I re-read the lessons cos they just won’t stick! *facepalm* I’m still making my way through season 1 of the newbie and beginner levels…there’s just SO much to learn! And believe me, if you knew how my days go by, you’d understand why I’m clinging to Korean. Having something non-health related keeps me sane. My only concern is to keep the interest alive. Heh

@Belleza
Oooh interesting analogy and analysis! I hadn’t really thought much about daytime soap operas, but you’re right! That’s exactly why I’m not interested in them.

May I ask if you have a cultural background -be it studies or whatever- about pop-culture and/or entertainment? Your comments are always very insightful and full of info I’d never even begin to imagine where to get! In any case, chapeau to you! And thanks for sharing!

Out of curiosity, I went to viikii.net to go through the segmenting tutorial found there. I was hoping I could contribute. Now, I am not so sure. I must admit I was technically challenged. Anyway, I am not giving up yet and will attempt again in learning how to segment a video. BUT in the meantime, I am ever so grateful to all you fansubbers out there and can now fully appreciate what selfless fansubbers go through so that other fans like me can enjoy their hard work.

BIG THANK YOU! <3X<3

OK, so I know it’s been days since this thread was opened but reading the word “talk” is too hard to pass up, esp. since I feel I have to vent about my current obsession: Coffee Prince.

I know, I know, it’s been almost two years since this kdrama came out, but after reading BFF recaps here in dramabeans (w/c are great, btw), I came across the wonderful jewel that is, CP. I obsessively finished the series in two weekends (I could have finished it in one, but went to Coachella and finished it up after coming back). I thought the drama was awesome, BFF, as cute as it was, fails in comparison to the acting and the depth of CP’s storyline. I was more of a Jdrama addict, and BFF was the first Kdrama I saw, so there isn’t much to compare CP with… but I thought it was just a refreshing drama that made me feel all sorts of awesome. I laughed, I cried, and felt giddy like a fool — all equivocal to two thumbs up and more in my book! I loved all the characters, main and secondary (even Yoo Joo!). The acting was great and inspired (esp. Gong Yoo — I felt his pain, for realz yo’). The soundtrack is amazing (currently listening to a CP playlist on imeem) and everything holds up pretty well with time.

I’ve read your astounding (I have to think of one more adjective other than, amazing, awesome, astounding, please help me out!) recaps and I thank you for them because I cannot get enough of anything CP-related, and I’m hungry for more. I have been scouring the interwebz for more CP crap, but since it’s a 2-year old drama, there isn’t much to find. The last episode felt a bit rushed, but at least it didn’t suck. I wouldn’t want a series sequel, but I think a movie would be nice (although, I doubt either would be plausible now with the untimely death of Lee Eon, sob).

I have gone to some “Favorite Kdrama” forums and it seemed that a majority of Kdrama fans love “Full House”, I would want to see it, but I’m still feeling kinda protective of my love for CP that I don’t want it to be easily dethroned as my #1 Kdrama. I know, weird, right? It’s only a freaking show!

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. I have been convincing friends to see it, so I could at least talk to someone about it. Thanks for the open thread, I’ve released some of my pent-up obsession (“Hi! I’m Fug, and I’m a CP addict…”). Don’t even get me started with the Gong Yoo obsession, I try not to be much of a fangirl, but sometimes, it can’t be helped. He just gets you with his wily charms. I can’t wait until he gets back from military service, I think he’s a good actor who’s yet to display his acting chops to the world (and not just as a leading-man type). YEH did her thing, and she was great, I loved that they kept her boyish even after they got together and not magically “feminize” her. Looking forward to their future projects. On this note, I should just stop it because I could go on and on…

Thanks again javabeans!

Just saying hello to you all .. Still a bit confused about the goings on here, but I guess I’ll keep poking around.