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Secret Garden: Episode 13

by javabeans

Some really nice moments in this episode, and some long-awaited movement on Ra-im’s part (finally!), help mitigate some other bits that I hated. Or rather, one bit in particular. (I really wanted not to hate it, but it’s one of those things that you just can’t bring yourself to accept, y’know?)

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EPISODE 13 RECAP

My absolute favorite part of Joo-won staring down at a sleeping Ra-im is how, when she frowns, he frowns too. Despite his emotional stuntedness and his absolutely inappropriate ways of treating people’s feelings, he’s in tune with her feelings and dislikes seeing her experiencing a nightmare. (Too bad he can’t make the mental connection and see that HE’S the cause of some of her waking nightmares, so to speak, with his harassment.)

When she awakens, they stare at each other and have a silent conversation (their thoughts are to themselves, but form a dialogue) which ends with Ra-im mentally telling Joo-won to come by in her dreams again. And then Joo-won utterly ruins the connection by whispering, “Uh, there’s an empty room next door…”

Ra-im grimaces — men! — and shoves her pillow in his face, but both immediately duck down and feign sleep when Jong-soo enters the room. Seeing Joo-won cuddled up to Ra-im, he drags him away, then settles down on the ground to claim the spot next to her.

Not about to be outdone, Joo-won pretends to sleep-wriggle his way back up, wedging himself between the two. He allows himself a gloating smile and snuggles against Ra-im’s back. One point, Joo-won.

In the morning, Ra-im and Jong-soo head out for a hike together, ignoring Joo-won’s pestering questions. He manages to catch up to them on the trail, though he gasps along and asks them to slow down. Instead, Ra-im suggests upping their speed, and Jong-soo happily obliges. One point, Jong-soo.

At the summit, Ra-im declares that winter is her favorite season because the cold forces you to keep walking to keep from freezing to death, warming the body. Well, that’s optimistic in a morbid sort of way.

On their way down, they find Joo-won huddled in the cold, notably opting for the exact opposite of Ra-im’s hypothetical scenario. He sits and waits rather than moving, his body cooling instead of heating.

Grimacing in pain, he makes a big deal about twisting his ankle, and hobbles along with the aid of the other two. They’re particularly annoyed with the way he leans all over Ra-im, using this as an excuse to slip an arm around her and pat her hair.

Finally Jong-soo has enough and declares that it’ll be faster to just carry Joo-won on piggyback… and miraculously, Joo-won declares his ankle healed. Hur.

Disgusted with his cheap trick, Ra-im delivers a swift kick to the shin. Joo-won protests that he really was hurt, clutching his kicked leg while hopping on his good one… then loses his balance and goes toppling down the slope.

Oska calls Seul’s social-climbing friend to ask her about things he should have frankly asked years ago. I suppose he was afraid to face the possibility that he’d been an ass, as he admitted to Ra-im, and now the friend confirms as much. Seul didn’t actually study abroad with that douchebag, as he’d believed, and had even attempted suicide. The friend advises Oska to hear the rest from Seul, since it’s not really her place to divulge all this. Yes, so discreet of her to share everything but one last detail.

Oska grows teary-eyed as she reminds him that Seul doesn’t have a lot of friends because he’d been her everything. She was always there when he needed her, but he was never there for her. The truth, it hurts.

Seul’s employee confesses to accidentally leaking Oska’s plagiarized song, which is doubly bad for Seul because in addition to making her responsible for this professional gaffe, it also means Oska was right when he suspected her.

As Tae-sun watches interestedly, Oska comes barging in and takes her aside to talk. He doesn’t say anything at first, just fixes his attention on peeling a plate of roasted chestnuts. Seul sits there awkwardly, her anger at being wrongly accused fading since the accusation wasn’t so wrong after all. She admits to being responsible for the song leak, but he doesn’t react much, just keeps peeling.

He offers her the chestnuts, having remembered how she liked them, but she shoots him down — he’s mixed her up with someone else. Oops. Frustrated with himself more than anything, he asks why she ever dated a jerk like him in the first place. He promises to think harder about how he hurt her. (Geez, you still don’t know? You declared that she meant nothing to you — to a guy who you thought she was with for a year — and can’t put two and two together? He gets points for effort, not so much for brains.)

Back to the mountain retreat. Joo-won’s business meeting will keep him behind for another day, so the stunt team heads down first. However, Ra-im isn’t with them; she (reluctantly) stays behind to tend to Joo-won, since he was injured when she kicked him.

Given Joo-won’s stunt about the ankle, Ra-im is reasonably suspicious that he’s faking his injured back, too. As he rests up at his own quarters, he wants her to tend to the swelling, then pulls down his pants (pffffffffft!) to show her the bruise. Ra-im whirls around and squeaks out a protest.

He asks what she did with Oska that other night, and she answers that she went to eat pork skins with him. He grimaces at her pointed comment that he ate it “like a man,” unlike some people.

He insists on taking a walk with her, citing physical therapy, and they walk on in silence. I love that they walk in step with each other, like Ra-im did in his fantasies, and he tells her as much — that he’s walked with her before, back when he kept imagining her appearing before him.

Ra-im looks at him as she thinks to herself:

“Ra-im’s narration: There are things that are thought of as fantasies merely because they’re far away. Starry bodies are like that. Just as it is with people who are too beautiful, they readily disappear.“

The line is a quote from a book, and she continues, thoughtfully:

“In the books that I’d read to find out what he’s really like, there was a passage that had long settled in my heart.”

Joo-won faces her with a smile, and tears start to form in her eyes as she thinks:

Ra-im: “It’s now that I realize it — how beautiful a person he is. And therefore, how far away he is from me. He’ll disappear someday, too, like people do when they’re too beautiful.”

(It’s a beautiful scene… but rehashes a sentiment I’m pretty sure has been shown before. It sorta sucks out the impact of this “revelation” when the point being made is an old one. Although it is nice that we finally see Ra-im’s longing, on a level that’s deeper than a purely physical pull.)

Joo-won barges in on Ra-im while she’s trying to get a handle on her thoughts, pouting and making trivial requests (water, change the TV channel) just to stretch out their interaction. When he declares he’s going to sleep in the same room with her, she’s not having it and tricks him into stepping outside, then locks the door. Indignant, he tries to pick open the lock with a paper clip, unsuccessfully.

It’s his turn to do the tricking: He talks as though Jong-soo has returned, which draws Ra-im outside, at which point he pushes his way into the room. Before she can shove him out again, he pushes her into bed, holding her to him, and tells her firmly to go to sleep.

Ra-im puts up a struggle, threatening first and then pleading for him to let her go. He doesn’t loosen his grip, and eventually she settles down and stares up at Joo-won for a long beat.

After a charged moment of looking at each other — do you hear that crackling? It’s the tension — Joo-won holds her even tighter and starts reciting his old familiar refrain, the one he used to ground himself in reality whenever his feelings (or hormones) got away from him. Only this time, his voice breaks and takes on a desperate tinge as he recites, over and over.

The next morning, they head straight to the doctor’s office after Joo-won wraps his business meeting. Having assumed he was faking his pain, Ra-im is surprised to hear the doctor declare that the injury was fairly severe.

Joo-won’s mother calls Dr. Lee (Ji-hyun) to ask about Joo-won’s medication, ignoring Ji-hyun’s comment about patient confidentiality and shrilly demanding to know the truth. Ji-hyun is spared a knock-down drag-out fight about medical ethics because Mom receives word that Joo-won was injured, and that Ra-im had been with him.

Ra-im has another stunt training session with Oska, who drives her home afterward. However, he recognizes the chauffeured car parked nearby, and guesses what’s happening. Warning Ra-im to stay away until he calls, he hurries inside — where Mom waits in disgust with a nervous Ah-young.

He tries to get his aunt to leave, but like she’s going to listen to him. Ra-im appears at the door (argh, does she not listen, ever?), and that gets Mom’s hackles up. Oska defends her, but it doesn’t help that Mom’s just found the box of Joo-won’s boxers — the ones he “returned” to Ra-im — and she dumps the box over Ra-im’s head.

Ra-im tries to explain about a misunderstanding, but there’s no easy way to explain Joo-won’s sparkly underpants, and Mom rails against Ra-im’s parents for bringing her up poorly, and raising her to mooch off a rich man.

It’s that low blow that lands with her, and Ra-im says with tears in her eyes that it’s true Joo-won likes her, and that she has developed feelings for him as well — but no matter, because she won’t date him now, no matter what, because he’s not someone she’d dishonor her parents to be with. Crying in earnest, Ra-im says that her father was an outstanding person, and demands that Mom take those words back.

Not bloody likely. Instead, Mom spits out that she can do a lot worse. Yeah, I believe you, viper lady. Finally, Oksa loses his temper and forces his aunt out. When he comes back to check on Ra-im, she’s sobbing her heart out, crumpled on the ground with Ah-young attempting to comfort her.

Hearing that his mother paid a visit to Ra-im, Joo-won immediately heads to Ra-im’s house, and then the action school, to no avail. He then confronts his mother angrily, asking her to back off Ra-im.

Mom declares that she knows he’s taking pills, which to her is a Big Fucking Deal — because of how it would look to the world, of course. Nice of her to care about her son’s health, isn’t it? If word got out that the LOEL president was hopped up on crazy pills, it would look mighty bad.

Mom says the one bit of wisdom she’s probably ever spouted in her life, in telling Joo-won to go for the relationship if he likes her so much. At his astonishment, she points out that he’s not actually fighting with her over this — he’s fighting with himself.

But if he chooses Ra-im, if he marries her and has children with her, he’ll have to give up everything. Mom may eventually accept the child, but Ra-im will never be allowed one step into their hallowed halls. So if he thinks he can be content with only love to sustain him, by all means, go for it.

Finally! Mom graduates from Mere Plot Device and Angstmaker Extraordinaire™ to voice of (spiteful, malicious) reason.

Joo-won returns to Ra-im’s door, this time knowing she’s inside because he can hear her phone ringing. She refuses to answer the door, and in the morning finds him still outside — he sits in his car, having waited through the night.

Joo-won tries to say something, but he admits he doesn’t know how to go about apologizing. If he’s looking for a break, she’s not about to cut him one — not when this is more proof of his arrogant privilege. Why can’t he do something everyone else knows how to do? She’s forever apologizing, and yet he doesn’t even know how.

Ra-im tells him she has to keep living her life in that space where his mother degraded her and her family — so he ought to leave her to her own pathetic life, and return to his fairy tale. She walks away battling tears.

Meanwhile. LOEL is holding its annual VVIP party that night, which Seul plans to attend as part of her patented Piss Oska Off Revenge Plan.

After spending all day in a broody fit, Joo-won comes roaring up to the action school. Ra-im quickly asks Jung-hwan to say she’s not here, but Joo-won knows it’s an excuse and shouts aloud into the empty gym that she’s a coward for hiding, that he’s hardly even begun, that he won’t give up. That if she’s going to reject him, she ought to at least take his calls to tell him so.

Jong-soo comes up to her and points out that Joo-won has a point, and that hiding is the worst option. She bows her head but doesn’t emerge from hiding, and spends the day hunched in the locker room lost in thought. She reads over the string of texts Joo-won sends her, each worried in tone, asking her to answer.

After sitting like that for hours, she finally makes a decision and heads out, arriving at Joo-won’s compound that evening.

It’s not till she’s outside his house that she realizes there’s a party going on. From outside, she sees Joo-won making the rounds, smiling and greeting his guests, and the scene hammers in her status as an outsider (literally) looking in (again, literally) on the unattainable world inside.

Remembering Joo-won’s reaction to her shabby safety-pinned bag earlier, she glances down at her clothes, so unsuitable for this setting.

She hesitates when Joo-won calls, and finally decides to leave, unseen. However, Oska comes walking up at this moment, interrupting her escape.

He notices that she’s freezing and invites her to his house for a warm drink. He urges her to make her presence known to Joo-won, but she’s feeling self-conscious about her appearance and anxiously declines.

That’s no problem: Oska declares himself her fairy godmother (heh) for the night and calls in a styling team to fix her up.

And so it’s a very different, very glammed-up Ra-im who makes quite an entrance at the party, on Oska’s arm. (Ha Ji-won looks hot, but let’s just say that this moment might have had more dramatic impact had Ra-im and Oska not been wearing the same hairstyle.)

Seul glares — surprised, and also peeved to be upstaged just after declaring her intent to be the queen of every event — while Joo-won looks on in a mix of jealousy and shock.

 
COMMENTS

Is it me, or is the conflict getting really repetitive? I really liked much of this episode, but when you stop to think of what really went down in the big conflict scenes, it seems like the answer is, not much. The acting really kills the moments, whether it’s Joo-won’s viper of a mother being her poisonous self, or Ra-im being torn down by these hoity-toity folks, or Joo-won fighting with himself. But the actual facts of the matter? They’ve been long established and aren’t really changing. Yeah, class differences separate them. We got it ten episodes ago, thanks.

In that respect, Secret Garden has always felt like a bit of an antique, premise-wise — something out of a prior age that has been dressed in modern clothing, but hasn’t actually updated its themes or motifs accordingly. It’s the classic mistress dilemma — the woman refuses to be a kept woman, but the man refuses to marry her because his wife must be his social “equal.”

I get this conflict if we’re talking about, say, 19th-century British aristocracy, or 16th-century Joseon classism, or old-timey fairy tales. But it’s a stretch here in modern times. Chaebol families are the closest Korea has to a modern aristocracy and the thematic parallels generally work, but not perfectly, which is why these increasingly dramatic classist clashes are starting to wear thin.

Warning: Rant ahead. Regarding the bed scene —

This scene makes me so mad, because I’m so conflicted about it and it’s aggravating that I even feel torn because I know I should just hate it outright, but I realize the chemistry is sizzling and our couple is just so damn electric together. But I can’t enjoy it either, because the moment is just all kinds of wrong.

Yes, he’s hot, and yes, I love Hyun Bin — who wouldn’t want to be aggressively courted by him? But the fact remains that in this situation, a man tricks a woman, forces his way into her room, ignores her repeated protests, shoves her onto a bed, and restrains her body while holding her close. True, he doesn’t attempt any further bodily violations… but really, isn’t that enough? It’s already assault. The fact that he’s a dreamboat doesn’t diminish the ick factor for me.

Perhaps you can argue that Ra-im actually likes him, that her resistance fades, that she’s actually okay with it. But she says no over and over, and struggles, and asks him to get off her. It resembles a lot of the “forced seduction” scenarios of old romance novels, the kind of scenes that romanticized rape (hey, the hero got the heroine to like it, therefore his brute force was justified) — but which are, tellingly, no longer considered acceptable.

This is so close to the whole “She was asking for it” argument that gets thrown around, the lame defense of “It’s not assault because she liked it, honest.” I’m just… really, really torn about this moment because I want to like it, in fact I do sort of see the appeal and that drives me nuts. Because I also hate it. The very fact that Joo-won IS so appealing is not a mitigating factor but in fact an exacerbating one — it blurs the lines so that you want to cut him some slack, and that does everyone a grave disservice.

I’m more irritated with the drama itself than I am with Joo-won the character, because it’s one thing for a flawed character to act in stupid ways. But it’s a whole other thing for a drama to put forth this scenario and then romanticize it as sexy and moving, putting an uncomfortable glossy sheen on a situation that at its core is deeply problematic. Even if I hadn’t personally known friends (yes, plural) who were raped by men who claimed after the fact, “I thought you wanted it,” it would be hugely upsetting. Oh, it’s okay to assault a woman if she likes you back? Okay, then. Swoon.

But still: Urg, drama, you just ruined Joo-won for me! He’d been teetering on the brink for a while, but had finally won me over with the awesome watching-her-sleeping scene in the beginning of the episode. I don’t know if I can go back to rooting for him now — you can’t un-sour milk, can you?

RELATED POSTS

Tags: featured, Ha Ji-won, Hyun Bin, Kim Sa-rang, Philip Lee, Secret Garden, Yoon Sang-hyun

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Speaking from a minority point of view here (male).

First off, people are taking the bed scene out of context. It's a romantic/fantasy drama (it's a drama, not real life). It's suppose to be a progression of their courtship. Are we not watching the same show here? In a way, this is how their relationship is progressing...he was holding her (it's an intimacy beyond kissing and SEX), NOT kissing her, or touching her in awkward places, and definitely NOT raping her...Come on, Key Lime could kick his ASS if she really wanted to and she DID NOT even try hard to fight him off (it's how they are playing/flirting with each others). Look at how she stares at him while he is holding her, and he at her (off the chart chemistry). He is even doing his crazy chanting so that things don't go out of control (as a respect to her)...Any way, I thought it was a sweet moment for them.

*This is my first post/comment so I hope that no one is offended...just a guy perspective...love Dramabeans :)

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Finally!! I deffo agree with your sentiments, lol I just wasn't able to express it as well as you did!

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I am 100% "Guy" that totally disagrees with you 100%, you are entitle to your own opinion, and like I stated a bit ago, your post say's very little about the drama, but it speaks volumes about the way you approach life, I just hope that for your sake you are never in a situation where your thinking that "Her no actually meant yes", other wise you may find yourself in the wrong side of the law!!!
: O }

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I wasn't going to reply to this...Mr. 100% "Guy" but this is getting out of control...It's reflecting to the context of the bed scene in the "Secret Garden" drama NOT real life. In my humble opinion, the scene is cute no matters how anyone looks at it. And as for real life, YES...i know NO means NO...so don't speaks like you know me personally

Seriously, i don't think any real GUY have to proclaimed that they're 100% REAL :)

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@Amg1 I think you should stop attacking people personally like you did before, and as I stated BEFORE everyone is entitle to his/her own oppinion, don't make people "bad people" just because they don't agree with you. Please just chill and let everyone comment whatere they want to comment.

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You sucks Amg1 and i am 100% woman. Go away if u dont like this drama. why spreading negative comments?

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Amg1- you are not wrong. Don't let these people make you think that your opinion weighs less than theirs. They don't know where you are coming from or why you stand so strongly on this. They don't know why you are taking this so seriously.

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Amg1 - You're totally right, there is a reason to be squeamish about the scene. She was saying NO, it doesn't matter what her eyes were "saying".

They are romanticizing assault by using the old "no means yes" trope.

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@ Amg1

Your post speaks volumes about your respect toward ppl perceptions & opinions. Why does 99% of your posts/writings always sound arrogant & superior? Can you try to be open-minded / humble / respect & consider others ppl opinions? Plus, re your older earlier posts, please don’t put words in ppl mouth like YEH haters, amateur etc.

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Wow! how I wish I could have express it the same way as you did, I am a girl by the way, and saw it the same way you did.

By the way "HE IS NOT A RAPIST"LOL. that is such an appropiate name for this post.

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Agree 100%! =D

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Thank-you I mean it's so stupid, it's just a smple show not meant for any harm :) people will say anything tupid to start a lame conversation that ens up being really freakin annoying

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I agree with u 100%...my thought exactly!

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@HE IS NOT A RAPIST
HERE! HERE! Bravo to reason and some more reason!

The real crime here isn't about the so-called insinuated rape "bed scene," but rather about those who have recklessly tied a terrible act like "rape" to the "bed scene!"

For the life of me, even after re-watching the "bed scene" again and again, I JUST DON'T SEE THE ARGUMENT about a so-called insinuated or attempted rape, etc.; It simply isn't there!

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Thank you for all the love you guys have shown me so far !!!!!!

Would you be more comfortable if I was to say that as a 100% male, I do agree that is is within a man's right to "Force a woman in bed, and used physical force to restrain her while she keeps telling the men to stop, and he responds that if she does not shut up he is going to be all over her"?

The fact the you show so much anger towards me does not say anything about this show or about me, but it is a reflection of the way you guys conduct your own life!

Whether be real life or a drama you cannot have your cake and it it, in one hand you cannot say that in real life you agree with me, but in the real of the drama you do not the reason being is that when you guys take this attitude it only makes look "Hypocritical", nut far be it from me to point that out!!!!!
Again thank you for you attention and the love you have shown!!

Your truly, your humble servant Amg1....
: O }

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Please overlook all my misspelled words!!!!!

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Hey Amg1, what r u doing here? 100%# males should watch sports or wrestling. and man you suck!

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Please don't tell someone that they suck just because they have a different opinion.

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Maria, Maria, Have I tell you lately that I love you?

Instead of attacking me personally, and like a "Real Woman" make an intelligent comment regarding why you disagree with me.
But if the best you can do is to insult me, and put my manhood into question, than I will say it one more time, you attacking me does not say anything about my character, but speaks volumes about how you go about making your point and I must say that from where I am standing it seems you "Lack much when it comes to manners", shame on your parents for raising you like that!!!!

Lots of love anyway!!!!
: O}

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well said. exactly what i thought about it but failed to express :) TQ

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I'm a guy and i disagree, Yes we all know that its not real and its a romantic fantasy but there is still something inherently wrong with how they portray the courtship. No is no for a reason, its not No until you grab her till she relents, or No unless you can manhandle her into getting a kiss.

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Att: Amg1 + Maria

First: I think personal attack is not acceptable

Second: brookeeve I agree with you, don’t tell someone that they suck due to opinion differences, it’s bad.

Last: It’s rude to involve & insult someone parents when they have nothing to do with the discussion.

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Bed scene pro or con aside, I would just like to say that I am amazed that men even watch these kdramas, or any drama at all, but I guess Im guilty of stereotyping. Sorry to the real men out there who love to watch dramas instead of sports or history or news as some of us would think they would prefer.

Just curious: what kind of men would watch these dramas? And why even watch if you hate more than love the dramas? I understand females doing that but for men to endure those things, I find that surprising. No need to reply if you find this question too obtrusive of your privacy :-) Thanks, if you do.

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Thanks for the recap JB. You are just awesome for doing the recap so fast even in this holiday season. I agree with you about the conflict being repetitive and the bed scene. I also don't find the things JW did to Ra im to be able to get close to her are cute anymore. I think he became more and more annoying. And where are all the fantasy element now? what does the body swap had to do with the story because this kind of story can be developed even without the body swap. It's episode 13 already and I still don't know why they put secret garden as the title of this drama. To be honest the show became less and less appealing to me. I do hope it gets better though.

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Yeah, I've noticed the whole brute force thing in dramas tends to be overlooked. I can recall a man grabbing a woman's wrist or forearm and dragging her by force in almost every Korean drama I've seen. It's really disrespectful and quite irritating to see that behavior glorified in fictional relationships. I know they set up the whole aggressive courtship dynamic, but the bed scene should not have gone there, especially when they had her protesting so profusely.

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Far be it for me to make assumptions, but I do wonder (after seeing comments about how the episodes aren't available with English subtitles yet) if people would feel more upset if they understood the words Ra-im was saying.

Would it affect you more to see, line by line, her demanding, "Stop, get off me! Get your body off mine!" and then pleading, "Okay, I promise I won't hit you if you just get off me," and having Joo-won return, oh-so-smoothly, "Shush. If you don't I'm really gonna jump you."

??

Any difference, at all, maybe?

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Lol, ok now you're just making me feel guilty...oh maan i'm torn!! But seeing it wo subs gave me the advantage of seeing the way the dialogue was delievered. Yes she was pleading, but in a way that comes across as almost casual. Like she's used to Jwon and his crazy behaviour - if that makes any sense...

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Here's my take on this scene:

The first time i watched this scene without subs or reading Rebel Souls' Transcap
1) i was surprised by the amount of force he used on her, it honestly looked like he was squashing her with his weight
2) she was protesting quite a bit, not really fighting back though

As a result of not truly understanding what they were saying I sort of coughs* forgot about it because of the incredibly charged staring and chanting of kim-suhanmoo...

BUT then afterwards i went back and read the ep 13 transcap and from what ive read

RI did definitely tell him to get off her and threatened to beat him up, and you can tell by her tone of voice that she gave up the threat and tried to compromise with him..

And his response after as translated reads something like this: Stop talking or I'll really jump you..

After i read THAT line i was really disturbed..
.. I'm almost hoping that the line was mistranslated/misinterpreted but from RI's reaction to what he said, she IMMEDIATEDLY stopped talking and just looked at him..
.. and that left me puzzled

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On the other side of things, just some other thoughts to consider:

1) One of RI's most frequent lines is probably: Do you want to die? or Do you want to get beaten up?

and honestly many of the times she has said that those have been empty threats, she doesn't exactly deliver a K.O. every time she threatens to beat him up

2) We can infer that she actually didn't mind his forcefulness in the end... from their staring and how the scene exits with them still hugging, and as well she looks for him in the morning after she wakes up (implying that they've been together all night)

3) the nature of their relationship is err.. aggressive and force is frequently used, recall the changing room scene, the scene where she throws him down repeatedly, and all the times she's kicked him in the shin

4) I personally found the forced kiss from the previous ep? (i don't even remember anymore) worse than the bed scene, she was clearly resisting and VERY mad at him afterwards

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Damn.....Reads like a threat.

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I knew the dialogue before I commented. It doesn't make a difference to me because I took the entire thing in context. From the very first episode where she dropped three guys on her own to every single time she has kicked, punched or body slammed JW. Most of the violent stuff she has done to him was when she was angry and I can't ever recall him punching or hitting her in anger. Yes, this guy is persistent and annoying but he has never done anything abusive and GRI certainly doesn't act like a victim. Lot of things can be questionable on first glance that is why context matters the same way that motive, circumstance and intent matter in judging real crimes.

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I'm not a Korean (nor English native speaker) and I don't want to doubt your translation....however, from some other website with live recap I got completely different understanding of the situation. Which may be completely wrong, of course.

Here goes my vague memory of it:
She says she stops hurting him so much...then she adds she stops hurting him at all. And then he amusingly reacts that if she continues like that she will soon get hurt (in a sense that the logic goes that she soon offers hurting herself).

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ouch! that last line..

I hate the scene even more now.

some people are excusing him that he knows Ra-im likes him.. so what? even so. it was clear she was not ready. she couldn't even look at his skin just early in the morning

it didn't do harm. he didn't touch awkward places.. he didn't attempt to rape her... we all know that!

what he did.. and we are angry about is that he didn't listen to her and held her against her well ..

now if he, instead of chanting that words to distract him at the end, apologized and got out of the room. I would have forgiven him.

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So you don't forgive her for all the times she hit him and he asked her to stop hitting him and even threatened to call his lawyer?

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I think that you are being purposefully obtuse.

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Think what you like. The argument is that he shouldn't put his hands on her after she said no because apparently this drama has been nominated as a representation of how all men treat all women. If it is wrong for one person to put their hands on another, especially after they strenuously object then it should be wrong universally right? Should it make a difference if the intent is to forcefully hug or to hurt by kicking and punching? It's still violating someones rights. So I'm curious why no outrage over GRI's physical attacks on JW.

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Huh, I got it translated by my friend and it was mostly "I won't kill you if you stop" and I read it more as threat-flirting than anything... but maybe that's because I wanted to enjoy it too much...

Thinking back on it I think it would have been better if Ra-Im HAD overpowered him and then trapped him there or something... I would be very happy if that happens later, since I've always been under the impression that she's the real one in control - the master of the overenthusiastic Joo Won puppy =D Hopefully it'll be like that later! I was really liking this drama and don't want to dislike it because of this, but you raise a good point =/

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I haven't watched the scene yet so I can't say anything much but I would think if Ra-Im continuously said no without stopping for longer, Joo-Won would have eventually let go. Another thing is, I think calling it romanticizing rape is a big stretch from a hugging scene. I know he's pushing her down and not letting her leave but that is a far cry from pushing her down and violating her. I think the scene might be taken in meaning further than what it is but that is my own opinion which might change when I actually watch it.

And with the whole class conflict, it is dragged on quite a bit. But I totally understand why it exists so much in this drama because it exists in society even to this day. Maybe not so much class but definitely social standing. I hope they don't continue putting all the focus on this issue but I do think it needs to exist in the drama.

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And I thought I was the only that hated the bed scene!!!!!

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delivered*

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Thank you for the recap, javabeans!

I would have loved to see Jong-soo piggyback Joo-won. (would be nice to see piggyback rides for guys in kdramas)

I've noticed the repetitiveness a few episodes back (and the number of coats that Ra-Im owns ), but there really is something about this drama that makes me addicted to it despite its flaws. The big picture is a bit thin but the individual scenes are pretty solid for me. And I'm glad that there are no substantial machinations for some evildoer to take over LOEL (Mr.Park is more of a comic chaarcter). Nor are any of the secondary leads trying to scheme in underhanded ways to get with RI or JW or so in love with one of them that we bleed our hearts out. (Watching Lovers in Paris now. I'm squealing over Lee Dong Gun's character, but I can't be happy for the main couple because the sad shadow of SooHyuk's unrequited feelings is making me upset with them for being happy). the secondary characters are likable enough (even Seul) for me to not think the scenes are wasted. I love how their lives don't revolve around the main characters.

I am a bit apprehensive abt the future episodes. Hated-parents-deadset-against-the relationship angst and I-was-involved-in-your-father's-death angst are things I don't like in dramas, though the "I-was-involved-in-your-father's-death" is just speculation.

And man! Ha Ji-Won sure can cry!! I saw a crying scene from Hwang Jini and my tear ducts were set off within 2 seconds. I only ff-ed through the mom scene because it is something I can only bear watching once (so waiting for the subs) cuz the mom is so hurtful.

As for the bed scene, it was only vaguely disturbing to me. If some male acquaintance did that to me, there would be a part of me that would ring alarm bells since I heard acquaintance sexual assaults/rapes are more common than being raped by strangers. However, ever since episode 1 when Ra-Im went with Joo-won after he said "Oska wants to see you" and went into a hotel room with him- I am able to suspend rationality.

I think the bed scene was mitigated by 1. good acting (joo-won never felt threatening or angry or trying to prove something in this scene. from the context of the drama, i knew it was JW being dumb again) 2. the playful humor that went on before which sets a lighter tone for the bed scene and 3. the touching moment when Ra-Im looked at him.

I've tried a few of the old-skool romances where rape was condoned (can you believe there was a time when publishers actually demanded rape scenes? I'm glad romance novels have evolved since then.), but I don't think this is anywhere near that. in those novels, it felt like the dirtbag "hero" either 1. is mad that the heroine disobeyed him and is trying to prove his authority or 2. thinks he knows that this is what the heroine secretly wants but is afraid to ask for and therefore views it as some sort of altruistic move on his part (*gag*)

I'm more disturbed by Joo-won's mom's reaction to Joo-won taking pills. It sent a chill up my spine because it is an accurate reflection of how mental illness is so stigmatized in asian culture.

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Yeh, the mothers reaction was slightly concerning to say the least! I mean damn the woman is cold!

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Wasn't the scenario more like watching a couple rolling around as if they were wrestling/gaming? I just can't associate the scene with such heavy feelings, so far to even call it "rape"? I mean, really?

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I think you misread my point, or perhaps you're responding to someone else, but to clarify: I did not call it rape. I don't think the scene is rape, or almost-rape, or that Joo-won had any ill intent. I don't read any negative intentions in the scene, or in the characters. But that's also part of what I have issues with.

What I DO have a problem with, as I mentioned in my ending comments, is when dramas use these scenarios to illustrate a romantic, playful, or amusing beat. One that completely ignores the message it's sending or, worse, pretends that it's not casting a pretty light on what IS unwanted sexual attention that does qualify as harassment at least, and probably assault as well. There's a huge problem in Korea with sexual harassment and confusion about what constitutes consent -- popular dramas romanticizing a man forcing himself on a woman (but he's so cute! Of course he'd never really hurt her!) do nothing to help that.

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JB, This is one of those instances when I agree with you 100 %.

As you know I am a guy and this kind of scenes drive nuts!!!!

I cannot agree that his actions were harmless, the fact that a woman clearly says not once but many times "NO" should be enough, for him to stop, the fact that he even issue a threats is even worse!!!

Thank you again for standing your ground!!!!

: O }

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Yep, sorry it was in response to what someone else had labelled it as (should have made that clear!).

And I agree with your point on a more holistic level with regards to how the scene could be read. Had to replay the scene several times to see where others were coming from, lol but I got there.

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I 100% agree with you. Plus, scenes like this encourage the idea that as long as it's NOT rape, using your superior strength (ok, i know there is debate about who is stronger, but, let's assume HE is) to do whatever you want is ok. Which I 100% oppose.
Actually, it brought to mind a scene from BOF, where he tried to force a kiss on the girl. The scene disturbed me until (I thought) you see him recognize her distress and stop, and he seemed to feel some self loathing for his actions. (granted, BOF has tons of problems. I'm talking an isolated scene here ^^;;). I would've liked this episode a LOT more if JW had shown some regret over the stunt he pulled, and left the room.

:D I tell my little brothers that it's just like spiderman and superman- with superior strength comes greater responsibly. And that if I ever here of them pulling any crap I'll beat the stuffing out of them, I don't care who's bigger ;)

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JB, agree with u 100%.
Although I love this drama especially the acting of lead actors, I hate the bed scene and struggle whether rooting for this drama anymore (I try to close one eye and cut this scene in my mind).

Actually, since episode 1 JW forced himself landing on RI to the ground, this drama had told us that it's not so impossible MAN wins WOMAN during physical fight even though she is well-trained stunt women like RI. Or, u might say this drama's non-sense that RI just side-kicked JW easily and successfully a min ago. But, in real life, I believe it could happen. That's also why the bed scene made me feel so uncomfortable.

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Hi Javabeans, thanks for clarifying further your point about the bed scene. I have not watched the episode yet with eng subs or even raw so Im just going by the recap here.

I completely agree with your concern about this scene. And we are not talking about rape here but about a man and a woman developing feelings for each other, and who we believe would end up together.

Sadly we do not find scenes similar to this just relegated on-screen but they occur also in real life albeit talked about in hushed tones. Sometimes it is just verbal but other times the threats also contain physical abuse in different forms/levels.

It perpetuates because the relationship between men and women is like a power struggle which worsens/becomes ugly especially amongst people lacking in maturity. If it happens in real life then it is not surprising to see it depicted in film/media.

H/ever this does not excuse the writers/producers of Secret Garden to further give license to such actions as admissible even if the actors are so darn cute, sexy and lovable. In fact, it makes their responsibility even greater because it makes the acceptance of the message behind this scene more palatable to less discerning audience esp the youth.

The danger of popular culture/media espousing this kinds of messages is that the subtle acceptance of this message by both the potential abuser and abused may lead to the actual crime of rape and other related forms of sexual abuse.

Im not sure if my mind will change about this after viewing the actual scene with english subs....

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Ah ep 14 made me so happy with the way the plot was moving... people who were worried about things staying the same and *spoiler* lack of body swaps *end spoiler* will be happy...

But I'm afraid that something that people have predicted is going to happen... regarding JW's accident and RI's father... but I still have hope based on how things have been going so far... this could be amazing...

In regards to the bed scene - I've always thought that Ra Im could always overpower JW... and both of them know that... so I didn't see it with the same connotations at all, I saw it as just a playful thing on JW's part... and in ep 14 in one scene he kind of makes up for it (when his 'advances' are... not as guilty as one would think...) Also it's kind of like a nod to what we could see happening in other scenes when they're staring each other down... of course the end destination of bickering would be the bed... but yeah, if Ra Im wasn't so independent and they didn't have the type of relationship they have, I would be totally uncomfortable as well... but I buy it here...

I guess the main reason I don't mind is that I love that JW is so in love and dependent on her that at this point I'm don't mind scenes like that one...

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Thank you for the recap.
I was sooo hoping the rant wasn't about the bed scene and I get where you're coming from but...

I think that situations like it happen in almost all dramas but no one says anything. Its always "sexy fun times"(if I've read correctly). Just because this happened on a bed its assault? What about public arm grabs, forced hugs, voyeur tendencies and alley snogs? I'm not saying the scene doesn't give pause but I think its pushing it to label one thing this, and another that because of locale. Also there is the issue of discomfort and fear.
In reality its all about how you feel in a situation but in drama, isn't it about the way its presented? The scene wasn't sexual at all. They have sexual chemistry sure but there have been countless other scenes that were more justifiable for JW taking liberties that would make me get a restraining order. I think that is why its hard to be outright affronted.

As a drama viewer I don't believe that many writers "intend" for us to believe certain characters(the ones we're supposed to like and root for) to actually be human (in certain ways) and therefore take things to a level of sexual assault. I don't find JW any worse than most men on television as a whole, because they all abuse women in some way (mostly sexual) but its always deemed as misguided love and intrigue.
JW is a self-centered, condescending, obnoxious, overbearing, mentally unstable, pompous, classist stalker, but do I still find myself drawn to him as a character, yes. I hate it, but its true. That's what makes me put him and scenes like this where it is ....in a drama.

Ra-im said "No." That's also true, however, she has the ability to get rid of him(physically) and she never has. I've been thinking about this over and over throughout the last few eps when she should have backhanded him, or high-kicked or pinned him, but she didn't. God knows, I would have! He's grabbed her wrists and she's struggled but given her occupation and training, etc, she could get the upper-hand and break free. However, there must be a reason she hasn't. I would like to believe its because she doesn't want to hurt him and desires to remain feminine in his eyes. She doesn't want to evoke fear in him because though he may annoy her and make her nervous by stirring her sexually and spurning her to think deeper about herself and others, "she" doesn't fear him.

Also there is another thing drama fans... why is there never discussion about the abuse by women on male characters? Like Jini's constant and uncalled for shin kicks in Plan B(i)?

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I'm going to go real world here for a moment (and probably making a record number of comments for me on a single episode, but I'm a mean old obasan and that scene irked me)

My sister is a karate black belt. Once upon a time, there was another woman from her dojo, a blackbelt as well, who was attacked and raped. Back at the dojo, she was taking some verbal abuse from her senpais about not beating the crap out of the guy. A firm and complete stop was put to this by Master Kim, who had been a POW in Japan in WWII and knew quite well what survival was and that she had done all she could.

To quote him "are you alive?"
"yes"
"then you succeeded and I'm proud of you."

Never EVER assume that being proficient in a martial art means she can take someone at any given moment.

And the reason we complain is the person says "get out..." you get the hell out. Other person says "no" you stop. This is what, in general, we have spent the last 30+ years trying to impress on people. You try watching that scene with a teenager and then having to say "yeah, Binnie is cute, but child, no means no and stop means stop"

We may cringe at the wrist grabs (and at least SG has had each side wrist grab, which is different) but this scene, particularly with the dialogue - she IS telling him to stop - is very very close to going beyond the pale.

The ONLY reason it doesn't go beyond the pale is that he does stop.

I will now go drink some tea and eat some stollen and ponder 30+ years of trying to get those simple concepts across.

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beautifully put!

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Again you did say "real world" right?
I never meant to imply that women aren't harassed "in the real world" regardless of their physical strength. What I was referring to was the differences between what the "drama" is saying(through character interactions and reactions-regardless of age) and what we mask as ok because its a drama. The wrist grabs, stolen sleep kisses, unbearable bear hugs, and blatant harassment aren't just cringe worthy but again.... its a drama. I wasn't trying to get "real world" on anyone.

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Sorry for saying this, but I found your comments on this episode harsh. Is it necessary to be so critical of the bed scene and how you now see JW as sour milk!? Most people (like myself) love Secret Garden and wants to read your recap. For me, I am here for the 'feel good' and 'escape reality'. But I have to say I finished reading your recap with a sour feeling.

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Wow! I thought the same thing!!!I was so scare to post what you did,because I thought I was going to be attacked left and right!!! this does not mean I don't respect JB because I would be an ungrateful bit**, but this post made me sad, even worse were the comments that were comparing the scene to a rape scene Wow!!I am hurt.

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@Viv and @DRAMAADDICT4ever

My dear lady's I can assured you that this is not the first time we have discuss this and many other issues like this, for us the ones that do like like this scene we eventually move on, not that we change our minds but we do accept each others point of view, I know that the subject is a very difficult one but we can still enjoy the "good" parts of the show as a whole!!!!!!

: O }

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You're not the only one feeling this so should we think about this so-called forced seduction during the coffee kiss? How about when he forcibly manhandled her into the woman's dressing room? Are you calling every drama that does the same type of scene also? Sexism abounds everywhere yes even still in America trust me when i say on my job every year we have a sexual harassment workshop do you think it penetrates some men and women on how not to behave with each other no it doesn't but to call this scene a forced seduction wow i'm left speechless by your reaching here. I have to ask when have these dramas stop being enjoyable for you because you and GF seems to nit pick on each drama not measuring up to your criteria of what you deem a great work. Are we watching Shakespeare? Or are we just looking for a little escapism from our everyday reality that sometimes is harsh, not pretty and not in anyway make believe. Granted life does imitate art and art does imitate life sometimes. Can we not just enjoy a show instead trying to put a forced category, or beyond WTF where did get this opinions or trying to compare it to another drama or a character how he or she should react in it? Is this too much too ask?

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Escapism is one of the many reasons I watch dramas, but it is not the only one. I hope I speak not only for myself when I say that THE reason why I read Dramabeans is because I want to know what JB's, GF's, and other wonderful readers' opinions are. Isn't that the point of a blog and online community? I can't say I agree with everything JB, GF, or other readers say, but I certainly appreciate hearing what they think and I've definitely changed my mind about some issues because of what they've written.

Long story short, I don't think JB or GF are nitpicking, they're simply telling us what they think and feel about the dramas they're recapping, and that's precisely what I love about Dramabeans. :D

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Here's where i consider it nit picking during SKKS several people called GF on trying to compare it too the Coffee Prince why not just enjoy the show and not expect the same reaction from the male lead as in the one she was trying to compare it too. Her response was i don't see why i can't compare it to that it the same trope. Her response came off totally on the defensive so now should i ask her every single drama that uses this same type of plot should we compare or hold the main male lead to the lead in the Coffee Prince? If we do wouldn't that get after awhile tired and passe? This is what i consider nit picking because while i didn't see the Coffee Prince the main male lead in SKKS his response was in line with her personality and i felt she was trying to make this characters reactions should be like another's reaction in a different drama.They have both done this for several dramas where it gets to the point of nit picking and not just enjoying the drama because the premise hasn't just been set up by not only the writer herself but their individual responses in their recaps to certain characters and their reactions or descriptions on how they felt watching a scene.

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You make an interesting point. I disagree with you, but I still think its interesting. Frankly, during the 'recap' portion of the post, I thought JB really let the whole bed scene slide. It wasn't until the 'comments' section that I saw her tear loose with (what I think was a well deserved tounge thrashing). Then again, the comments are the last bit, aren't they? So they tend to carry more impact. Then again, its a pretty set format, so comments usually come last, no?

Only thing I can suggest is maybe skip the comments (especially when the recapper hints so heavily in the intro that she was upset?). I really enjoy the recaps too, so I hope you find a way to read them so you get the most enjoyment out of them.

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@ teapot i'm seriously getting to the point of where a lot of others who told me about this website just to let it go too much nit picking and negativity.

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Oh and I wanted to add that I think JW's forcefulness with her is really part of the plot. The director is a better match to her in a lot of ways but he is so...inactive. GRI clearly has no romantic feelings for him and I think part of it is because he is so passive with her.

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*popping in from lurker-dom*

I just wanted to say "THANK YOU" to JB, for expressing exactly what I was going through regarding the bed scene, conflicted emotions and all. Perhaps it struck me as all the more pertinent as I had only today read a fabulous write-up on Shakesville about Rape Culture in today's world. I understand that that wasn't what the character intended to do, but the fact that it was implied/followed the set-up and scenario of an assault situation leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

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first thank you for the recap.. i really longed for it since yesterday... i watched the episode unsubbed XD

uhm.. the bedscene. while watching i didn't took it too seriously. just thought 'whoo jw what are you doing there?!' but didn't questioned any further because of the sexual tension and the kinda light flow..
i still think i can be forgiving because of all the circumstances: she perfectly able to kick his ass if she really wanted, their always been violently relationship, his playful mind, their sexual attraction to each other and so on...

but now since i read your recap and the comments, i have a bitter aftertaste with this episode... btw i didn't like the forced kiss either.. hope the show will get on its right way...

at the party: omo she looks not so well here. ok but not gorgeous..the dress is really not suitable for her body.. or is this just me who realizes, that this makes her even shorter. hair would be perfectly fine if oska would wear his not the same. but the makup is really pretty :-)

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Amazingly, I only had eyes for Ra-Im in that last scene where she's all glammed up, and somehow did not notice Oska was sporting a similar do. I'm pretty sure Joo-won felt the same way.

Regarding the bed scene, I was slightly disturbed as well when he initially pushed his way in and threw her on the bed. I'm not trying to give him slack but I think he can tell Ra-Im is softening toward him. Perhaps Ra-Im's protests were a reaction to her steadily increasing attraction to him leading up to that "revelation", and her immediate impulse is to push him away (physically and emotionally) before that wall of rational feelings she's built around her crumbles. And he, who is in tune with her feelings, knows this and clings tighter. If anything, he's taking a bit of a gamble with her since he knows she could knee him where it hurts, scratch his face, or poke his eyes out (though the drama wouldn't show anything that violent). She was certainly close enough and has never hesitated before to kick him when he's provoked her.
*submits her two pennies*

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I've been thinking a lot that whoever's been orchestrating the execution of these "forceful" "scenes in question" in the past few eps may haven been watching a bit too much of those Thai "slap and kiss" style dramas...and if I wanted that I won't be watching K drama. Just saying.

Yah I agree the story needs to move on from the class difference coupling opposition to address all those carefully planted seeds n the plot that has left the audience speculating like crazy in the past 10 eps. We've past the half-way point and as much as the writer would like to keep the suspense, i would iike to see these ideas flower over time instead of dropped or wrapped up in hasty fashion in the last 2 eps...

Loved loved the walking scene tho.

Thanks for review JB :)

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I LOVE that you point out the stifling patriarchy/sexism in this drama--I always feel conflicted about kdramas and how they portray women's heteronormative submissive role in society blah de blah...

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You can't un-sour milk, but you definitely can make cupcake with sour milk. Tastes delicious too.

I completely agree with the bed scene. It made me quite uncomfortable watching the scene knowing in normal circumstances, the brutality is downright wrong. It's kinda disappointing when I feel like Secret Garden feels more like an adult drama, than say, PK or BOF where the brutality just makes you roll your eyes. Here I can't roll my eyes, but instead it makes me irritated enough to just skip the whole scene.

... I have a feeling Girlfriday is going to like the next episode xD

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You can’t un-sour milk, but you definitely can make cupcake with sour milk. Tastes delicious too.

heh, i like this(: hopefullyyy Joo-won will somehow majorly redeem himself &Javabeans (and the others who hated the bed scene) can make something sweet with her(their) sour milk [:

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lol I said that about chocolate cake earlier lol

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Ah, sorry, I didn't see it x) My bad!

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agree with the bed scene rant... felt somewhat uncomfortable and unfitting even as a viewer. BUT... it's a drama, and dramas sometimes do not seem to make sense, so I'm letting this one pass.

I'm hoping the drama gets its plot jumpstarted soon... its getting a bit draggy and slow... doesn't mean i don't like the drama, I'm totally loving it! and the recaps! Thanks~!

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Calling it almost-rape is really not kosher. I don't think JW would ever force himself on RI, The "forced" kiss from ep 11was not meant to be a sexy scene...she was angry with him for what he said to the director and he was angry with her for saying she's gonna start liking the director as a man...plus there was a great rebuke from Oska when he came upon the scene. I've no doubt Ra Im can put Joo Won in his place...

I guess there is a fine line and I can see where this can be uncomfortable...they are pushing the boundaries but I don't get the impression that Joo Won would go as far to really do the unthinkable. He can be a bastard but not a rapist.

My favorite scene is the cabin bed scene the closeup acting of Hyun Bin and HJW was heartrending...loved that he frowned when she frowned....that scene was just too sweet for words...and the way he looked at her.

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totally agree with you here on the bed scene. When I watched it, I was thinking "daaaang... this doesn't look kosher at ALL!" I realize they want to make it a point that Joo-won just really really wants to have her in his arms like a pillow.... but sigh, they could've done it better. She DID say no, many times.

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seriously?? i think you're just being a friggin feminist out of noway...

this is a kdrama.. and nobody would have that thought in my mind unless they're sick in the head...

gosh.. i hate this kind of people ...

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and by the way, don't think that this peoples here really believe you ...

they just try to kiss your fat*ss so that you can continue translating drama for them..
so they dont have to wait for the subs..

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trolly troll is trolly.

go play elsewhere.

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People,please!!lets not attack one another.
Although I did not agreed with JB this time because I love this drama so much and enjoyed every single scene on this episode, I don't think it is appropiate for you to attack her personally.that is just rude,you should be grateful she does this recaps for us,because she clearly does not have to.

If you did it intentionally to spite us , don't waste your time and energy,and do something else.

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I am loving this drama so far, and have always enjoyed watching Hyun Bin's acting. This is the first time I have seen Ha Ji Won and she is doing a great job. I also appreciate Javabeans and girlfriday's wonderful recaps of the drama, because it allows me to "see" what happened in the episodes without having to wait for the subtitles.

Regarding Joo Won's actions in this episode, I will say that I respect everyone's views here and mean, in no way, to disparage them. But, in my opinion, I have to say that I'm giving the guy some leeway (as a character in drama land).

Up till now, his actions if taken from a "real world" view have been stalkerish. No ifs, ands or buts. If Ra Im was a real woman who disliked Joo Won, she would have gotten a restraining order by now and would have had him jailed for violating that restraining order. Period. But all Ra Im does, after protesting, is to give in and forget. Joo Won, who we all know has some serious issues, would, I think, understandably push for more, wondering how far he can get. So, I don't blame him for pushing and pushing. He hasn't run into that brick wall yet. In Kdrama land that works, because even Ra Im forgives him for his questionable behavior. I take my cue from the character herself.

Unfortunately, these types of actions are always romanticized in dramas (I've seen it happen in South Asian dramas/movies, as well), and class issues are still a big thing in these dramas. Romance novels have both class issues cropping up, as well as forced seduction that goes all the way. And this is commentary about contemporary books. Seeing it happen here didn't really surprise me, and I've come to accept it as the accepted (albeit twisted) view of expressing affection/possession/jealousy, etc.

Personally, when I view dramas and read books, I like to measure the actions of the characters based on the world they inhabit, but only as long as what happens in literature/dramas doesn't get too far from what I consider right or wrong. So, while I dislike what Joo Won did by real world standards, I'm willing to let him get away with it in Kdrama land because Ra Im lets him get away with it.

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Great perspective-

How does the action play within the fictional world that is is set--that is a good criteria of judging characters.

Now it becomes an issue if people use dramas to learn social norms and might mistake reel life behavior for real like behavior.

Perhaps there should be a warning that no-one under 50 who doesn't know how to behave morally should watch these dramas.

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its becoming more and more like cinderella, except there are no ugly sisters, and the prince charming is just pathetic.. hahahah...

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I agree with the bed scene analysis... it's a perfect example of the "no means yes" stereotype.

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You have become very harsh Javabeans. why smashing the drama over just one scene? we merely get 4-5 good dramas in year.cant believe the negative comments this drama getting after just one scene. l. why u people only looks for negative in everything? SORRY

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Lol I hardly call that being harsh, just a difference of opinion, and a valid one at that! It's all a matter of perspective. Though I don't agree (wholly) with JB, it certainly gave a lot of food for thought with regards to the portrayal of key issues. Thanks again for your recap JB, damn well appreciate it.

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I don't think too much about implications of things in dramas, because I've never been a person to go out and repeat what I see on screen. I know that kdramaland ≠ real life, but if I think about it enough, I do start to wonder if dramas reflect social behaviors that exist or if dramas make it seem ok, and thus create certain social behaviors. (But maybe that's just a what-came-first,-chicken-or-egg endless cycle kind of thing.)

I can't decide whether I should feel really uncomfortable or just write it off as another example of his Joo-won-ness: after all, he has been forcing himself into her life this entire series. I mean... we can write off his previous persuit of Ra-Im (which honestly, guys? Seemed really stalkerish. It's supposed to be romantic or something, maybe? But it's just him stalking her. Not cool, man.), but not this? Double standard, much?

But you said it yourself, jb. He's emotionally stunted. He's almost like a kid: still in that ego-centric way of thinking. It's always about him, and, like a kid, he can't express himself on a level of emotional maturity that we might want to see.

Conclusion: still don't know how to feel.

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I think many of you are overreacting to the bed scene, hence forgetting the characters involved:

1. Ra Im is not somebody who lets herself be harrassed by him: she is a stunt woman and could just punch him if needed. She knows it, HE knows it, we know it. It's not as if he jumped onto her knowing she would surrender to his overpowering male strength!

2. He didn't even try to kiss her, for pete's sake! His hugging her is in line with his usual panzer behaviour. If he were the type of man who accepts a "no" for an answer, we wouldn't have the drama to begin with.

3. We, the viewers, are somehow forced to see the whole scenario through Joo Won's eyes. From the very beginning, this story enfolds mostly in his mind and this is the main reason why many of us are rooting for him despite his undeniable faults. We know that he's falling in love even before he does, hence wait for the truth to be revealed to him as well as her.
I'd say the director/writer/actor did a great job in portraying this particular character, because they managed to make him judged not by reason but by emotion.

4. The above said also explains why Ra Im's silent confession comes somehow new to the viewer. We know that she is attracted to him, but this is the first time we are directly confronted with her felling, instead of his.
I liked that a lot.

Personally, I found this episode beautiful on many levels.

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@ R: you nailed it!

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absolutely agree with you ^^

2 thumbsup R

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@R. Agreed! well said!!!!!!!

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Agreed 100% finally someone with common sense!!!!!

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All execellent points R.

@DRAMADDICT4ever, glad to know you also share the same thought, I was crushed after reading the negative recap yesterday and had to say something even though I know I would look ungrateful. We rarely get a very entertaining/quality drama these days, SG is what I personally have been waiting for, and my way to truly enjoy Secret Garden is to not judge and criticise.

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The way this argument is panning out reminds me of the scene in 'Que Sera Sera' episode 9, hardly forgettable. I read the recap for that episode by Javabeans and you seem more upset with JW's behavior or handling of Raim more than when Taejoo almost RAPED Eun Soo and this situation in 'Secret Garden' WAAYY LESS INTENSE'

Find it interesting is all...

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No, the scene in QSS was unequivocably bad behavior, and I don't condone it at all. I especially hate how it played out in the following episode as well. But the difference is that QSS didn't portray his actions as romantic -- it was ugly, and mean, and thoroughly reprehensible. Nobody thought it was hot or sweet, and nobody defended him for it -- that was the point. It didn't candy-coat it or try to show that it was okay because she loved him back. The situations have similar threads, but aren't actually dealing with the same issue.

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So I guess we are ignoring the fact that in the real world a trespass by someone we love is often different (and more easily forgiven) than one by a stranger? Because its totally inconceivable that two actions can have different meanings based on the the person doing them. Bleh, this double standard is so frustrating, this is my last comment on this issue.

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The almost rape scene was ugly, but what almost made me quite Que Sera Sera wasn't that scene but the scene afterwards when Eun Soo kisses Tae Joo like everything's forgiven. The aftermath was played out way too lightly. At least in Secret Garden, Ra Im is still not agreeing to the relationship despite her attraction to Joo Won. I think that says a lot more about how "forced seduction" doesn't work out. Ra Im is attracted to Joo Won, and if he wasn't so forceful with her, I think Ra Im would have had a lot closer relationship with him.

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"I think that says a lot more about how “forced seduction” doesn’t work out. Ra Im is attracted to Joo Won, and if he wasn’t so forceful with her, I think Ra Im would have had a lot closer relationship with him."

Yes, thank you. I think that was the point that I just couldn't overlook and completely agree with JB. I can't just blanket the issue based on one scene from one drama and say they're all adding to the problem and this one is no different. Nobody is arguing against "no means no", but I think the question we're asking is this: does the scene/drama somehow contribute to the the sexism and chauvinistic attitude in our society? Are we so conditioned by drama romance that, like pigs to the slaughter, we don't know the difference between fiction and reality? It varies from viewer to viewer because we all have different experiences and education.

No, it hasn't affected me as greatly as it has to JB or the way I'm going to watch this drama, but I think it's great that she's bringing this forward from this episode and open up this intellectual dialogue. A lot of recap writers simply gloss over the deeper, touchier subjects, fearing that it may put a "damper" on the experience.

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I got the sense that even though the actual scene in Que Sera Que Sera was ugly and reprehensible, they actually ended up portraying it as "romantic" and "hot" and "made it okay" by the next episode.

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Exactly!!!!!!!!!!Thank you for pointing that out(^^).

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Javabeans,

Please do not dislike Joo Won too much. I think his actions during the bed scene were a lot better than what Tae Joo (from Que Sera Sera) did to Eun Soo in the scene from episode 9, but I think you liked his character in the end.

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Oops, I did not know that TrueBelle already posted about this.

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lol I think all the people who are firing up at you completely miss your point. Kind of like you're RI and they're JW now isn't it? Miscommunication through and through.
On a different note, what you said (about the social class clash being rather outdated) makes me wonder about the reality in Korea. My professor who married a Korean adoptee refuses to go to Korea with him (as he is going to be a professor there for a few years) because growing up in Japan and being an expert in East Asian Studies, she told me she understands too well how hard it is to be a woman there and how even harder it is to be an adoptee that returns. Don't know if its always true but she said adoptees are looked down upon because its assumed that they were from poor families, thats why their parents gave them up.
If there is such a stigma about economic backgrounds, I can see why social class difference is always a hot topic in dramas. People must care about it for dramas to make a fuss about it, no?
I was also thinking, rather than the trite parental disapproval conflict, maybe we could have a more organic conflict like, he likes French cuisine she likes pig skin; he likes tacky flowery tea cups she likes beer mugs lol and the clash comes from who they are, how they grew up and how they view life. But maybe that's too realistic and won't make much interesting angst for viewers :D

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I don't know where to begin...First, I'm a HUGE Gardener fan and a loyal reader of Dramabeans but for the first time after reading your recap, I'm left with disappointment and sadness. Of course, I'm forever grateful to you for taking the time to recap our drama addictions. But, I feel it's irresponsible knowing that you have a HUGE following and to make a statement that can stir such an uproar between your readers. For the people that love "Secret Garden" and tune in to read your recap about the show itself are left with a sour milk aftertaste also...

:( :( :(

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Javabeans is simply offering her opinion, which is all she's ever done or said she'll do. I'm not sure what is irresponsible in expressing an opinion on a TV show in a calm, reasonable and mature manner. We're all adults, and we can all understand that other people will often see things in ways that we may or may not share. I appreciate that Javabeans and the other commentators of this site share their thoughts, whether I agree with them or not, because they make me think and I like that. Thanks guys!

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I am a huge Secret Garden fan as well,and I follow it everywhere,chloeblogspot,soompi,viki,dramabeans....you name it.Anyways,on this particular episode everyone was praising the drama so much!!and for some it was the best episode so far(me include).

Obviously I expected the same reaction in this post,like it has been so far,but as soon as JB commented how much she dislike the "bed scene",mostly everyone seemed to agree with her(Like everything she says either good or bad they agree with her),some even compare it to a rape scene,and how much they hate it?seriously?

Sight!!!
Anyways,to me this episode had so many good scenes and made me laugh,cry,and squeal like a little girl, so no matter what anybody says, I love every scene included the "bed scene",it is my best episode yet

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JB first sentence, I thought had an overall positive note:
Some really nice moments in this episode, and some long-awaited movement on Ra-im’s part (finally!), help mitigate some other bits that I hated.

So the nice parts that she liked were so good they made the badish parts less bad.

And she also says she still likes Joo Won, despite the scene, right?

And, I think, future JooWon will help mitigate even more.

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Am I the only one who cried when JW was reciting that chant during the alleged almost-bordering-on-rape/sexual harrassment scene?? It's like he couldn't believe she was staring right back at him (with love shining in her eyes) & not struggling anymore; he probably thought it was just one of his hallucinations - just IMHO, but how sweet is that... To the dude's credit, he just wanted a snuggle... & u'd think Lime would have been able to easily shove him off anyways, the girl IS an athletic stuntwoman.

I dunno... this drama just has too many damn-I-gotta-replay-that moments to make me dislike it for that 1 scene. & I'm not even a Binnie shipper! In any case, THANKS JB for recapping & starting this interesting debate ;P I promise ep 14 will weave its magic wand & un-sour all that milk.

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I have no problem with the bed scene. i really enjoyed it.

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Of course not.. you love me.. you just dont realize it.... but you will

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Can u leave everything for me? because i cant be with u as long as your mother is there.

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Yah Gil Ra Im! ... I'm getting there... can you not love Hyung so much? Aigoo

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YAH!!!! ... don't put words in my mouth!!... Of course Ra Im will stop that nonsense with hyung

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And somehow you thought that this cosplay shit would be cute in this situation? Not here. Not now.

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Back the fuck up... there needs to be some sort of levity in this thread... your comment isnt needed either

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@Effy, this is the most enjoyable moment on this post, so please if you don't like it, just don't read it.

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@ RaIm and Joowon.

Thanks for the exchange. Glad to know your love is going strong.

I actually appreciated the break from the strum and drang.

@effy-- But I respect your right to feel differently.

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I'm with Effy. While I agree that this thread could use a little levity, the above exchange seemed out of line to me. For a lot of reasons this episode, and even more this comments, have struck a really deep chord with people, and the cosplay just felt wrong. BUT I respect your right to disagree, and heck, decide on your own whether or not to read my comment.

We Yumi - thanks for respecting disagreement and sharing your own opinion!

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First, thanks for the recap! (as always ^^)

Second, I completely agree with javabeans about the bed scene. A lot of the comments are about how the scene should be taken in context (i.e. Ra Im had the strength to kick Joo Won out, but she actually liked him, so everything was okay). But I think that any argument like that, taken drastically further, can become the "she deserved it" argument ... which is never, in any context, okay. Also, the point Javabeans is making isn't about how the scene affected the characters, but about how SG's portrayal of it makes force and chauvinism seem almost fine.

Note: I love SG, and my grades in school have accordingly suffered ... but I still hated the bed scene.

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LOL, my grades too!

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Is the fact that I'm so won over by that 'bed scene' proof of me being too brainwashed by kdramas? Never saw the issue until I read your comments. But..how true....

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No I think you and me both were entirely blinded by RI and JW's end all be all chemistry, i must have replayed that scene tons of times without noticing this bigger issue

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i feel guilty to not have seen what the bed scene insinuated... i mean i did feel some discomfort seeing him lock her up like that with his body but really, i WAS distracted by their chemistry. i don't really know, because i obviously still don't think it was as bad as you thought of it ;__;

but hopefully the brilliant episode 14 will change your thoughts? i think joo won more or less redeems himself in there?

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Aww don't feel bad hun, people interpret things differently, i know I was WAYY too giddy atm (over the moon that it was finally the weekend) to notice it myself

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Touche JavaBeans, I see your point : ) Love your recaps BTW.
About the whole "No means Yes" thing being romanticized, it is truly awful and I do see the trend in KDramas for guys to be a bit overbeairng.

However at the end of Episode twelve we saw how both Raim and JW have this unspoken connection, they can communicate without saying nothing at all, and being a viewer of a TV series, and knowing how our heroes and heroines think and feel is what made that scene not as awful as some have interpreted it because we do understand our characters and they have the ability to communicate with each other on a non-verbal level as we saw when they were conversing within their heads.

In real life, no one is a mind reader and NO definitely means NO !!!

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thanx for the recap...i've to wait for at least 4 days for the subtitles to be ready but i'm grateful because at least there r someone who willing to provide the translation

i couldn't agree more on the repetitive scene..don't get me wrong..i love this drama soo much..more then Mary Me Mary...but it took ages for thing to progress..

n i know that they had switched again in episode 14 *sigh*
now i have less time to enjoy cool joo won trying to win ra im's heart

it's different feeling to see joo won in ra im's body trying to do that :(

thus i hope the switch doesn't las long.Please..
i really hope u can do the recap for episode 14.. gosh..how i wish time move a lil bit faster ..thanx!

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Our characters aren't well-drawn, and the plot is dragging:

Ra-Im: cute, poor, uneducated, stoic, loyal, and fun-loving.

Joo-Won: handsome, rich, educated, self-centered, rude, and neurotic.

What does he know ABOUT her that would make him fall so desperately in love with her? He thinks she HOT! He keeps trying to hug her, kiss her, hold her, anything physical. Wasn't it just a couple of episodes back that he was telling JS he was going to have breakfast with her after sleeping with her?

She knows that he's a kook. A rich kook, but an arrogant, unfeeling kook. They don't spend time together other than when they are arguing. I am not buying this 'relationship,' there is no basis, it is K-Drama fantasy all the way. So the "hold still so I can kiss you," and "relax here on this bed with me" are more adolescent K-Drama fantasy images. Nothing more. They really don't even move the plot along.

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Maybe your opinion will change after the ep 14 subs come out?

RI finally gives her answer to Joo Won and Joo Won actually says (in front of people) exactly what he loves about her so much. It's a breakthrough scene really.

Just wait a liittle longer!

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In real life, joo won would have had a restraining order slapped on him a long time ago.

I enjoy the character and I think Hyun Bin wrings a lot of humanity out of Joo Won, but I find a lot of his actions cringe worthy, and downright despicable sometimes. Also, I'm not the type of girl to swoon at the dominate alpha male thing which Korean dramas in general utilize far too often.

Joo Won's actions are wrong, and I wish the drama would be more self aware of this and make his character flaws a bigger plot point instead of playing it like a grand romantic gesture which it's not. It's like the writers know JW comes off like an almost rapist stalker, but wave it off and take the easy way out portraying it as romantic.

It would be much more interesting to see Joo Won eventually realize that what he thought were romantic gestures actually drive Ra Im away instead of what we will eventually end up with, in which Ra Im becomes like every other kdrama heroine who says no but secretly means yes. I hate the message that sends to girls and honestly it's just played out too many times before to be interesting.

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Why couldn't he be like "I'm just going to lay next to you and watch you sleep. we can put pillows between us." ;) I'm dreaming again.
I see your point jb. these situations shouldn't be romanticized and made to look good. If only Raim took control and beat the crap out of Joo won and then kick him out of the room. I dislike seeing her being dragged around by JW all the time. sigh
20 episodes repetitive conflicts cant be helped. isnt it the same with most dramas? at some point in the middle the story just stop moving or become slow. conflicts, plots get recycled then it picks up and the end. Even so I would not want it to be cut shorter just because I like Hjw and Hb too much. With only 6 episodes to go lets hope the story get moving. :)

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I totally agree with Javabeans' rant on the bedscene.
A No is always a No.

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Hyun Bin 's acting is super, the conversation between JW and his mum, his eyes was red and slightly wet. He was truly hurt.

Oska is protecting and taking care of Lime, like a big brother.

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wow consideration the varied (& oft intense) reactions, i did hesitate before deciding to give my 2cents. dont know if it matters but being a guy & all, i didnt see any issues with the bedscene. sure its classic JW zanyness & i can surely understand ppl misunderstand if its the only scene they saw. however we all know that this is a rather "physical" relationship to start with esp when it was RI that gave JW a shin kick to begin their courtship. i dont think anyone shouted assault then - jus sayin'.

im prolly gonna get heat & grief on this but me & my better half have somewhat of a physical relationship too, in the sense that we play, wrestle & then some even in a non sexual context. i have on many an occasion held & hug her even when she struggle against it sometimes in playfulness while others when she's in angst and/or anger. in any & all of these moments & actions, she's totally free to confront me after to express her unhappiness or unease with any & all of my actions but i've yet to hear any dissatisfaction on this issue atleast. indeed, if anything its my lack of similiar "attentive-actions" that irks her. dont know if mayhaps, RI & JW share this particular type of relationship - jus sayin'.

to be honest its RI's constant rejection, both mentally & physically, of JW's (admittedly asshated) advances & antics that have me cringing cos i feel for the guy. i mean has the guy has shown any other women 1/100th the interest that he's giving RI. gee instead of dumping on JW, think of why he doing it esp when its soooo outta character for him! man the dude almost seems pathetic...all for the some love & attention from RI. can we not see that JW is head over heels, over the deep end (as in Mariana Trench deep!), truly madly deeply in LOVE??!! THIS FROM A GUY WHO'S BEEN AS EMOTIONALLY LOVING AS A SEASLUG! as someone who has been hit by the Lov-at-1st-Sight Thunderbolt, how can i not but empathize with JW's actions/antics? mind you im not excusing him but trust me in saying that things arent as clear & obvious as it mite be to others - jus sayin'.

as far as sexual harrassment goes, RI has been free to take appropriate legal actions from the get go. if anything RI's always been the one incontrol & JW the lost puppy. is it only me or is RI's actions (or lack of rather) saying something too - jus sayin'.

now that i've said my peace (& have my flameproof suit on), i hope we can all take everything in context, chillout & enjoy this extraordinary (to me atleast) entertaining drama.

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Again from a guy POV, I totally agree with you...just love the drama & enjoy the Show :)

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I am a girl and completely agree with you(^^).

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^ Word.

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the trouble with k-drama is they are lazy. if it works just keep on using it over and over again. That is not only in this drama but really most K-drama you get the felling..didn't we just do that scene last week feeling.
The same story line repeated the one step forward two steps back it like a traditional dance you can only watch in k-dramas.

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I agree with the bed scene. No means no. I am just not liking JW character anymore. I like him at the beginning but he is just not taking any responsabilities for his actions. Hopefully he does in the next episodes. And I am still feel cheated because the whole body swapping thing business just wasnt used to its potential. After they were back to their bodies they were still the same. Thanks for the recap.

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JB, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to both you and girlfriday! Thanks for your wonderful site, which has provided so many of us with countless hours of great recaps, fun, and insight to our shared love of Asian dramas! You two are the absolute BEST!

Wow, what a great discussion about this episode and, in particular, the bed scene. I really respect all the non-troll opinions and emotions regarding that scene. It's certainly a sensitive issue and one that should be taken seriously. It has just as much to do with respecting another human's wishes, as it does with safeguarding that individual's safety and well being.

With that said, I cannot adequately or sufficiently express just how important context and intent are, as far as this issue is concerned with this bed scene. As a 50+ yr old father of two beautiful daughters in their early twenties, I take "No Means No" and the safety and well being of my girls(and wife) very seriously.

But, honestly and with respect, I didn't feel even a twinge with this bed scene. The scene could have(and should have) been handled a bit differently. But at the same time, I feel that the twelve previous episodes have given me some understanding to the characters of Joo-won and Ra-im. Joo-won is a man riddled with flaws and quirks, seemingly due at least partly to his chaebol upbringing and an apparent traumatic accident in his past which is yet to be explained to us viewers. His initial interest and budding affection for Ra-im turned him into something of a stalker...but Joo-won's never shown us any reason to feel wary of Ra-im's safety when he's with her. To the contrary, whenever he's had physical contact with her, he's shown amazing gentleness, tenderness, and sweetness. The bit of wrestling(that could/should have been directed toward a stronger sense of mutual playfulness) notwithstanding, the bed scene was no different...Joo-won held and hugged Ra-im with the same very high level of gentleness, tenderness, and sweetness.

Ra-im has proven to us repeatedly in earlier episodes that she's a badass force to be reckoned with...when she wishes to be such a force. She could very easily and handily beat down Joo-won and serve him his ass on a platter. There were even comments in earlier recaps, wondering why and how Joo-won could defeat Ra-im's protestations and resistance by simply grasping her wrists. Simple answer- because on some level, she really didn't mind his advances.

I do agree in principle with JB that the show shouldn't dress up that kind of scene to make it seem okay for a man to ignore a woman's repeated wishes for him to stop what he's doing to her. But, in the context that Joo-won's character has been drawn and presented to us, thus far, I think it's okay to allow him a bit of leeway in his somewhat awkward attempts at physically expressing his burgeoning love for Ra-im. Besides, I think all the shin kicking, flipping, wrist grabbing, and wrestling, have become an integral part of their mating dance. ;)

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well expresses.

Context is everything.

And the drama set up the characters and the scene well to indicate she was not in danger.

Joowon is often played as less physically sound than RaIm, and in addition they threw him down a mountain to incapacitate him more than usual.

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