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Open Thread #256

 

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Noooo! *)@&(@#&*!%#$@#%#*

This is really frustrating... How about those not living in North America and could not access that damn DF site? Is he really not going to continue subbing AM 1997? What do you think could convince him otherwise? I am so sad... T_T

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Sorry, this ought to be a reply to anonymous. Just got so mad that I forgot to press the reply button under comment 49.1.1.1.3

I hope there's an edit button T_T

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Dramafever is saying "fuck them" I guess. Seriously no idea what to do other than downloading dramas and watching them with the shitty subs that are ripped from Dramafever.

There is nothing that can convince him otherwise and there shouldn't be. I support that decision, what Dramafever is doing is just not right. Like I already said, Dramabeans should stop advertising it.

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Not sure I understand - if they have exclusive right to present in certain areas then they paid for that - others are infringing - how is that wrong

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With that logic, people outside of the US shouldn't watch dramas at all. The thing with Mysoju doesn't really bother me that much, I download dramas anyway. It is the thing with dramatic that pisses me off. They actually deleted a personal blog, because the owner was doing better subtitles to a show they are airing.

Dramafever is a scumbag site anyway, when they were starting out, they were actually posting links to those infringing sites and now they are actually complaining to the DMCA about it. They don't give a fuck about the community and dramas, the only thing they are caring for is filling their own pockets.

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No - not what I am saying. They are within their rights if I understand correctly - I was really asking that and if they are its simple - they are not wrong. And then as follow up I say to you - you dont care about Soju but others will and it is same difference. People or sites who want to do it under the table will find a way to continue and I support that as much as I support DF right to act against it. Its the nature of markets. But it is hypocritical to decry someone acting within their rights only when it touches you and say you dont care about a site you dont use. The internet can confuse regional issues but time will sort it out

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Sure, they are within their rights, what they are doing is not wrong legally, but morally.

I wrote that it doesn't bother me, not that I don't care. There is a difference. I can actually see why Mysoju was shut down, it is a streaming website and it is not that new for them to run into such legal problems. On the other hand, it is a shitty move by Dramafever because they were once upon a time like them and were actually friends with that site and others. Now they are crying infringement.

It is clear to anyone with eyes what they are trying to create. A monopoly. It will not stop with Dramafever, next thing you know they will also attack Dramacrazy and make up rules that subbing sites will have to follow, because they could pull the plug on them anytime they want. Too bad that it is not available outside of the US. And I'm really doubting that it will become available worldwide, there is just not enough money there.

Sure, they run a business. But you can run a business in a legally right, but morally wrong way. Those are just shady business procedures, to catch more viewers.

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I get what you are saying - it does seem as though they are using a boulder to squash a bug

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wait -- WHAT? Mysoju is shut down?? Wow... (goes to check)

Whoa...

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wait -- WHAT? Mysoju is shut down?? Wow... (goes to check)

Whoa... not cool...

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Honestly I wouldn't make it so personal. If you check some of the DMCA notices on ChillingEffects.org, the same site you linked to, you'll see that Dramafever, MBC America, SBS International and CJ Entertainment send out notices all the time, and have been doing so for over a year.

There, you'll see D-Addicts, link aggregators to firesharing sites, and much more. A lot of those notices are redacted by ad-hoc companies that often only have a mandate from the copyright holders. (Often it's not the actual holders who are requesting all those takedowns, but it's these companies trying to make a buck.)

I seriously doubt Dramafever made a conscious effort to take down that site, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even know about it. A DMCA would never ask a hosting provider to actually shut down an entire site, but only remove the infringing portions. Shutting down the user accounts was, in my view, the hosting provider's decision and nothing Dramafever (or whomever acted on their behalf) requested.

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Hi passing by. I wasn't going to comment but am now confused. The blogger whose blog has been deleted was taking DF's subs? Or was he making the subs himself? If he/she subbed it how can DF take it down.

I mean there is another site that is still ripping DF's subs and viki's subs ( as soon as they hit 100%). That site is giving me the sh**s. I mean, because I saw people asking them how to rip viki's subs. Personally I am against it as I know several sites are still removing the source of the subs and claiming it as theirs... so I don't get the tirade against DF if the blogger translates the drama subtitles (if he is not ripping them from DF) then why the anger?

I know crunchyroll, Hulu and DF are not available for subscription where I live. So all these don't really affect me. If I can't find subs, I look for recappers or fan subbing groups. Or just watch raw.

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He created the subtitles himself. Dramafever complained on behalf of CJ to Weebly and they were forced to take it down.

And in every ripped subtitle I have seen there were credits. It is really the only way people outside the US can watch these shows, as many don't get any different subtitles. You might be able to watch them if your korean is good enough, but I'm just not watching a drama via recaps (which frankly is just useless) or raw.

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If he wasn't hosting the videos themselves on Weebly, then Weebly was unfairly intimidated by DF into forcing him to shut down his site. He needs to find another hosting site that won't be so easily swayed by such yakuza-like activities.

Geez, why do people suck so much, hm?

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Made another reply to yours, but guess what, it is "awaiting moderation".

And no, there were never videos or hardsub hosted, there were only .ass files.

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Ahhh ... okay then that's bad.
Ripped subtitles without names... yes we have seen them.When you work on a drama or you're subtitling you recognise sentence after sentence. Plus when you make an error and you see the same mistake in the ripped subtitle it serves them right.
If you're going to reply are you still going to be nameless? Just from a logical point of view,the argument that someone who translates off a raw episode- from a video which is copyrighted to the broadcaster-but the site yanked by DF,doesn't sound plausible from a legal point of view.

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Then the sites you've been looking at are the better ones... but epdrama? That one's one of the most annoying ones...

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Actually, mysoju.com was just a 'portal' that put up links to other sharing sites. They did not house dramas on their servers like DramaFever does, so I believe that they were wrongly targeted for DF's wrath. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't MisterX taking the DF subs, and correcting/adding/enhancing them and then passing that content on to others? Sadly, that *is* a violation and a DMCA notice would have been proper. If he was subbing all by his lonesome and DF sent a cease-and-desist to him/her, then they're in the wrong big time. He should contact the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) to go SLAAP-suit DF upsides the head.

What DF is attempting to do right now is chilling, to say the least. If one of the aggrieved sites does decide to take them on in court, DF is going to have to prove that the stations (KBS/SBS/MBC, etc.) and the various production companies that DF has entered into content broadcast contracts with contain provisions that DF is the ONLY licensed content provider in the United States. And I'll bet ya dollars to donuts that clause is nowhere to be found in any of their paperwork; that ties the hands of the broadcast stations to market their content to other providers because they don't want to show the stink of a potential monopoly while 'promoting' the Hallyu Wave with the U.S. (I'm going to have to ask my friends at Google what their take on all this is...)

Or maybe Korea's just pissed off over the recent Apple/Samsung verdict. Don't blame me -- I didn't work on that litigation!!! :P

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The subtitles from MisterX have no connection to those from Dramafever at all. Those were his subs. I even think, that the one from the first episodes were out before Dramafever picked the show up. I watched both versions and believe me, there was a huge difference to those crappy ones from Dramafever.

I can't really say more to this than those facts that I know from Twitter, so I don't think that there will be legal actions. I feel bad enough about spreading it around here on Dramabeans as it is, as I'm not personally involved. But I do think that people should know about this. This is actually important and will become even more important in the future, because this things will keep happening more as time goes on.

And I really don't think that anyone in Korea is really behind this. They pretty much never gave a fuck about subtitles and Dramafever has been on a takedown trip for videos on youtube lately and did this whole crackdown on Reply 1997 subtitles (Darksmurf has also been forced to theirs down). Maybe the viewership is just not as expected for Reply 1997 on Dramafever...

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I remember DF doing this when FBRS was airing. There was a Korean-American girl who was subbing (since nobody was subbing for the drama at the time) for her sister. She would sub the episodes quicker than DF which irked them and they started taking down her YT vids, etc. DF doesn't give a fig about international viewers who cannot access Viki, DF, Cruchyroll, etc. As anonymus has very correctly stated, they just want to monopolize the market. One thing they cannot remedy is that their subtitles suck donkey balls.

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Dear god, how huge is this and how long has this been going on?

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I only learnt about this when FBRS was airing. I don't even tune into DF. I don't like their player or their subtitles. Instead of coming across as pretty b*tches, if they really would've wanted to spread the K-drama love they would be working towards acquiring copyrights so that they can reach out to international viewers. But, that's not never been on their agenda.

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After hearing this, I'm so spitting mad!! Anyone who has a website should be extra-vigilant now, because it's just a matter of time before they start coming after you!!

But DF HAS NO FUCKING LEGAL RIGHT to order someone to remove their content if it was generated under an individual's own artistic license. The problem lies in the Weebly webhosting service folding like a house of cards when someone waves a warning flag in front of them. If anyone has truly taken the time to read a webhosting site's EULAs when you sign up to have a page on any blogging platform, it does say that they have the right to pull your plug if they think you are posting 'questionable content.' MX's content being far from questionable, Weebly is such small potatoes in the hosting world that I'm sure they decided to not fight DF's potential threatened litigation.

If MX posted content on his own domain address that he bought and paid for, then he has every right to go tell DF to go pound sand. He should look into that soon and get back online! Man, he has SUCH a great opportunity for a lawsuit against DF for intimidation and suppression of free speech -- I hope he also looks into that as well.

I am so ashamed for my profession right now. It just takes one bad apple to make me think about changing careers...

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What's really annoying is that he wasn't even forewarned about this. His website just vanished!! :/ Even YT notifies those who violate copyright rules before closing their account. They only went after him since he was subbing AM 1997. They weren't bothered before this when he was subbing gems like ILICDD, AWC, and a bunch of Japanese shows.

By going after other websites DF is coming across as pretty and d-bags. They cannot fathom that subtitles are very important for international users who cannot access streaming sites likes viki, DF, hulu, & CR. They are only closing doors for people who've fallen in love with Korean dramas. With these goings on I've prepared myself that I may not be able to watch Korean dramas when I work overseas in the future. I'm sure I'll get over it. mehhh

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Wow, talk about a shitty movie by DF. I'm personally a paying subscriber to DF, and this just irks of really bad PR, if MX goes and counter sues DF.

Like you said he does have a great opportunity for a lawsuit.

I just hope DF cleans up their act, and stop being the next the big bad corporation that their slowly turning into...

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What artistic license? Subtitles and sharing them are illegal: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/06/are_subtitles_i.php

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That was not me, but another anonymous. I don't think that subtitles should be illegal.

Seriously, how do you watch dramas? It is beautiful for you if you can speak the language, but don't look down on people that can't.

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Nothing to do with looking down on someone. Illegal is illegal and that is illegally stealing intellectual property. People just seem to want to make any excuse to legitimize piracy. People are blaming DramaFever, but that is misguided and misdirected. Blame the Korean companies for not creating a territorial framework for licensing or for making a global website. The Korean companies are spending a lot of money making these shows for international audiences now and they expect to make money from it and then they demand a lot of money for companies like DramaFever to buy the shows or split the revenue. That's business. They have every right to control their property to prevent piracy. Why should DramaFever continue to license the shows if there are free not legal alternatives? The Korean companies are to blame since they let this situation go on hoping to use free and piracy to spread the popularity, but now they realized it has grown into an uncontrollable monster with free illegal sites stealing content anywhere and everywhere. No one is forcing viewers to leech or pirate, that is the choice of the individual, which most individuals are just thinking I DONT CARE ABOUT ILLEGAL OR WHO GETS SCREWED I JUST WANT TO WATCH MY SHOW FREE.

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The international market they mostly makes those dramas for are actually Japanese. There is really not much money made outside of that, maybe some from China, but America? Please...

Europe? The market here is non existing. There is no way to watch dramas legally in this country and most of the world, outside of the US. There is NO way for me and many other people to buy these freaking expensive DVD sets, with unclear content. It is just not reasonable.

And don't kid me with Dramafever having to pay fees that are so freaking expensive. They are making money like stupid because of the viewership and humongous amount of ads they air and don't forget those expensive premium memberships. And that site keeps growing and judging from those recent events they are already getting too big for this little pond. You can't tell me, that they are just doing this for the community. That site is all about money and little passion for the medium they are trying to sell.

And even if they are doing business, that shit they are doing are really shady business procedures. Suffocating their competition like that is just wrong. They were once upon a time actually not unfriendly with that part of the community and there are actually fucking ads on d-addicts, a torrent site. And now they are crying infringement, while still being in a business relationship with them. And look at WithS2, what ads do they run? Dramafever over the whole place on many illegal sites. What the fuck?

They are not doing this out of the compulsion to spread the love or doing the right thing morally, but for their own pocket. They don't care if what they do is hypocritical or just plain shady, as long as they get their precious money. How is that any better than the "thieving" fan that has no other option?

Sure, there is an option. Stop watching dramas and punishing those evil people making subtitles that make it possible for people to enjoy these dramas. It would solve your problem, there would be no market at all.

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If it was just any thieving fan as you say, outside the licensing territory with no other choice there, they should blame the Korean companies for their territorial licensing model and not having a global site (limiting DF and other sites to certain markets only in the hopes that other markets will spring up for them to get more money from new licensors). The US market is small because it's new and because piracy is destroying it. Who would want to pay for DVDs or support the legal avenues when most people think illegal sites like MySoju is legal? Watching shows at illegal sites like that benefits no one, the producers of the show are not getting any revenue. That's not competition. That's stealing. How can a company compete with free illegal? They can't.

I agree with your thoughts on DramaFever in some aspects, but no one said they are angels nor are they saving the community. That's business and capitalism. They are providing a valuable service and people are watching it, and even paying for it. If people don't like it, they don't have to support it or they can start up their own company and try to do better (GOOD LUCK starting a licensing business).

What you describe is a natural evolution of a business model. Legitimate businesses don't materialize out of nowhere, especially in this situation where so much piracy and an illegal community powered the initial spread of Korean Dramas. It is not so easy to separate a new business from having to deal with or interact with other elements of the community.

There is no room to criticize DramaFever on morality, given most throwing stones are supporters of illegal piracy. Whether or not there is a market is not dependent on the fan, that's dependent on the producers who spend the money to make these shows. But most fans don't seem to care about anything other than WAHWAHing that the illegal MySoju is gone and until they get their DAMN dramas. That's intellectually dishonest. If people want to pirate that is their choice, but let's call it for what it is and not make excuses that fandom is saving the industry when it's hurting it since less people want spend money on dramas anymore that they think is all free anyway.

As Barbarella said, you are blaming only DF, but it's actually the Korean companies who are working to remove illegal sites. Companies like SBS MBC KBS are sending out many DMCA notices. Now that DF is growing, of course it will become more of their legal arm. They have that right, it's their show.

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In response to Anonymous, comment #53.1.1.2.7

Quote: "If people want to pirate that is their choice, but let’s call it for what it is and NOT MAKE EXCUSES THAT FANDOM IS SAVING THE INDUSTRY WHEN IT'S HURTING IT since less people want spend money on dramas anymore that they think is all free anyway."

I'm sorry, but what you've just written invalidates everything you've said. Clearly you know nothing about the Kdrama industry. The Kdrama industry is flourishing like it never has before. According to the Korea Creative Contents Agency, the export of Korean dramas is on a rising curve from $105 million in 2008 to $107 million in 2009 and $133 million in 2010. And export sales have continued to increase exponentially. In 2012, the broadcasting rights for Love Rain were sold to 12 countries, to the total of 115 billion won and the broadcasting rights for The Moon that Embraces the Sun were sold for 200 billion won. Sales from export contracts at East Asian content markets have increased by 7.5%.

How can you say that the "fandom is hurting the industry"?? Without the fandom, there is no industry. I'd really like to hear you try to explain how fansubbing hurts the industry, when it freaking opened the doors for kdramas to overseas markets. Anonymus is absolutely right in condemning Dramafever for trying to dictate fansubbing. I can't believe you support Dramafever in shutting down blogs that offer fansubs.

I'm not entirely sure why you're so passionate about defending Dramafever and condemning illegal streaming/dling when I'd bet my bollocks that you illegally stream/dl as well.

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Wow, I had no idea any of this was going on. I mostly watch on DF or Viki, and sometimes with DSS.

Are the DF subs really that bad? I've noticed a few odd translations and issues, primarily that they don't translate text, but I don't speak any Korean, so I have no way of verifying their accuracy.

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anonymous, that's all well and good saying that Dramafever are not doing anything wrong. But, the problem is, Dramafever is only available in North America and seems to show no inclination to operate in Europe despite claims to the contrary. So, what about those of us in Europe? Are we expected to just slink off and forget about dramas? I am no advocate of piracy, but when there are no legal channels available for me to purchase drama then I will go down the piracy route. Give me the opportunity to purchase the product, and I will quite happily pay. Reading the Korean Herald and Times they frequently claim that hallyu is becoming more popular in Europe. How si this happening? Courtesy of the illegal sites as the opportunity for legally purchasing doesn't exist. If, as you say, the Korean broadcasters are behind this, all they are doing is killing any chance of hallyu really getting a foothold in the European market. What a wasted opportunity.

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dramafever subs are often boring. the wipe the translation clean of the cultural linguistic quirks that are particular to the Korean language.

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I don't really watch AM1997 with subs but I do download MisterX's subs because of the additional inputs. I might have missed something. I understand his subs are slow because they actually take time to be done. I know he picked it up first, if I'm not wrong.

Plus not everyone I know will be able to understand the drama without subs. How am I supposed to share the drama to them raw?

At this point, I am so tempted to inject malware into DF's servers and bollocks up their whole systems, render their HD's and backups inaccessible.

I. am. this. close. to being immoral along with them.

But then is it worth it. Probably not. Not gonna stoop that low.

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a more simple retaliation: ddos attack :)

errr... i hope no one thinks i'm serious... we're all just ranting right now. chances are we'll just forget about this and move on. unless they start cracking down on chinese sites and torrents. then i will be seriously p'od. and oh yeah, i'm still one of those people hung up on megaup1oad's shutdown

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It's not a monopoly. No one is stopping other companies or competing licensors like Viki. You're confusing lack of companies who want to invest in this risky business for a monopoly. And who could blame them, with all the people here crying about supporting their leeching ways, who would want to start a Drama licensing business like DramaFever or Viki has when the fans don't want to support the show and prefer to steal it by watching it illegally or free from illegal sites?

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They are killing their competition, they are getting there. Just wait a few years...

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All this talk about websites getting shut down makes me nervous for viki... is Viki in trouble? I hope not!! :( Please say no Please say no Please say no Please say no Please say no

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Will somebody go read the fine print of those sites?
Viki is available mostly in the US- you lucky residents you- the Korean dramas they broadcast?The videos are given directly from the content providers-virtual files.They are not taken from the ripper groups which uses TV cards.Those video streaming portals which uses ripped subtitles especially those from viki and DF subs, those are the ones in violations of copyrights.Correct me if I am wrong those of you on OT who are more up to date on intellectual property definitions.DSS subs are given not ripped.
Besides just for info for those who always say one can only get viki access if you're in the US- just read would you how to get access.Chances are some of you are multilingual and can translate.

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Ergh.All this talk is too stressful on a Sunday morning.Going to see what Panda and Hedgehog are up to this morning.Yay for Korean dramas.
Has anyone been following May Queen?I haven't had time yet and wondering if I should skip the childhood sections. Thank you.

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I've been watching May Queen. The childhood section is okay. The interaction among the kids is mostly interesting. The adults seem to be doing the same kinds of things over and over - there is little forward action on that front. I like watching the kids, but I'm definitely ready for the adult cast to show up. I think they'll appear in next week's episodes.

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Thanks.Okay will watch the get the gist but won't pay too much attention.Only there for Kim Jae Won anyway.

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Ok.. I have Nowhere else to say this that will understand my fangirling excited little heart more than here cos nobody in my real world would give a hoot.

EEEKKKKSSSS!! JUNG IL WOO is going to be in kl on the 23rd Sept!!!! I AM GONNA MAKE SURE I WILL BE THERE!!!

I need to see for myself is that skin for real? is that nose for fake? if he smiles, will this ahjumma buckle at the knees? And if he winks, will I need CPR?

any malaysians out there going with me?

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Oops. Did I breach some protocol not introducing myself? Hi everyone!! First time on open thread.. Was a little intimidated cos it felt like everyone knew everyone here already and so it was easier just keeping mum.

Am ahjumma age by kdrama standards and got into kland by way of ojakgyo brothers last year and haven't looked back since. Am pretty slow with my kdrama watching cos once I like a drama I can rewatch it to death. I prefer to watch the current ones that catch my heart cos its too exhausting for an ahjumma to marathon too often.

Real life is basically work, gym, social life with relatives and friends and a lot of retreats to k land :)

I often read our k actors saying this so am gonna use it too.. Please love me .. Haha

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Welcome Enz!
I'm afraid you're a bit late this week to have much interaction, OT is mostly active Friday and Saturday. :)
That said, nice to have you with us. If you come by often you will spot familiar names and new ones, that's how it goes! Feel free to call yourself unni if you prefer that to ahjumma. lol! If not, nice ahjummas are always welcomed at the party.
See you around!

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Thanks mystisith! Yours is definitely one of the familiar names here. Yes I def prefer unni to ahjumma, here and in real life.

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So I was going through Gaksital withdrawal like the next normal/sane person (laughs bitterly) -- or so I thought. Instead, I found myself actually going through Shunji withdrawal -- or a PKW withdrawal to be more exact. It's like "That awkward moment when you realize you've fallen for the villain instead of the hero in your favorite drama or tv show"

Anyway, because of so-called withdrawal, so far I've seen:

** Chuno (eps 16-24)
- PKW joins the 'Chuno' cast pretty late, but has quite an interesting role... And yes, since it's PKW, he does do the role justice.
-I was amused to find Konno and Koiso (the actors) in Chuno as well.

** Story of a Man (skipped around episodes here)
-- Again, PKW nails it as cute, autistic/stock analyst expert. It was weird seeing him in a non-villainous role for once
-- The chubby Angel Club manager and village Hothead Deuk Soo are in it. Deuk Soo's in it for like 2 mins, but I thought it was nice seeing Gaksital cast members in other dramas

**War of Arrows
-PKW's short role in this moderately successful is also villainous but tailor-made for him because it was quite similar to the role of Shunji -- maybe a little bit more evil. His character actually attacks a defenseless, but high-spirited girl (Moon Chae Won). Also, kudos to the cast for attempting to deliver dialogues in Manchu

**My Tutor Friend 2
--Probably the best part PKW has played that is non-villainous. He didn't have much to do in Uhm Tae-Woong's "Never Ending Story" but here he is the main lead and he does get the girl. And while at first his character may seem like the irresponsible, jerk type -- not everything is what it seems :) Another one of PKW's enjoyable performances.

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why did you skip around a story of a man. I've only watched it once and I can't seem to return because of park yong ha's passing and what could have been thoughts- so I only remember a few things. I know I'm always a story first actors second person so I don't understand why someone would skip around.

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Haha, I have no intention to finish A Man's Story/Slingshot as I am already drained by Gaksital and was just looking for a little PKW therapy. Turns out he was so adorable in A Man's Story in the first handful of episodes and in the end. That was enough to satisfy me and reassure me that PKW CAN act no matter what part he is given. He just seems to always know what is asked of him given his roles. He's the Johnny Depp of Korea -- so versatile and such a mixed bag of surprises!

I may go back and watch A Man's Story entirely someday (not anytime soon or this year), but I've read Javabean's recap for this drama when it first aired and so I know how good it's supposed to be. It's from the same director as Gaksital so how can it go wrong? :)

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Thanks Anabanana,

for sharing these and your input. PKW was always my favorite (acting wise) in Gaksital, he really was. I found his acting to be nuanced and subtle and not as loud (at times) as Joo Won (I think JW is good, but he is not PKW) :-).
I am glad someone feels the same way I do about PKW :-). Thanks also for the description of his other works. I will check them out.

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DramaFever Hwaiting!

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