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Beans of Wisdom: What’s in a name?

This week in Beans of Wisdom…

insa asks in “Team Dramabeans: What we’re watching” (#27):

just a question,
how did you guys move on from a show that disappointed you because you feel like you wasting your time watching it all?
*the healthy way is preferable

I should add the information, it’s when you watched all the episode till the end, hoping to get some feels back so you hang on it but you don’t and you feels really bad for yourself…

pigsnout replies:

Just curse it really hard and let out all your feelings, then pick up something new. That’s the best way.

Nanoo adds:

Watch other show. There are bunchs of other good drama that can make you forget the drama that disappoint you. Try this out 🙂

kanz

I would just curse the show, like GG14Days and GFB, then finally move on with new dramas of course!
I usually watch several dramas a week so one disappointed show won’t deter me to watch any ongoing or upcoming dramas.

 

lunatic4kd’s question in “Jealousy Incarnate: Episode 8” sparks an interesting discussion on names and translations in comment #18:

I must have missed something in the first episodes but I just don’t get why the two moms are suddenly fighting over Palgang (why don’t we call her ‘Red’?). It must be about money, ultimately, because I missed why she was taken out of her stepmom’s house and has to be hidden. This part of the story annoys me because it feels so disjointed….or maybe I’m the one disjointed!

Peeps replies:

Palgang (why don’t we call her ‘Red’?)

Why don’t we call Susan “lily” or why don’t we call Charles “man”? We call her PpalGang because that’s the name she recognises and identifies with, whatever it may mean in English. Even if she’s just a character, it doesn’t sit well that we change her names for our convenience.

It’s like asking an east asian kid, or an indian kid or an arabic kid: “why don’t you have an English name?”

Frankly, I hate it the most when English speaking people go, “wow, chinese/japanese/korean/indian/etc etc names are soooooooo difficult to remember!” or “I can’t pronounce it!” without really trying. And then the worst is “imma call you Elizabeth”.

snailshell:

Discomfort is where you GROW, and people need to be pushed. They do just fine with long-up, complicated European names, but they ‘struggle’ with the so-so-foreign two-syllable (it doesn’t matter how many syllables tbh) Asian or African names. It’s just another kind of racism/colonial thinking, and it needs to be challenged.
I read this a while back (also about an Arab girl), it’s good: http://the-toast.net/2014/01/15/the-names-they-gave-me/

snailshell replies again:

[T]he struggle to have your name respected is real. I don’t think it’s okay to tell people not to be offended when you say their name wrong/decide to call them something that isn’t their name. (see:https://youtu.be/Dd7FixvoKBw)

DF subs are the only ones that translated Ppalgang’s name out, and I really don’t see any good reason for them to have done so, because it’s *not* English. I’d keep the name looking like a Korean name just to make it work in the English, so you don’t end up with an Aerith-and-Bob effect.

If you were really to translate the name out, it works better to go for ‘Scarlet’. People aren’t really called ‘Red’ (or ‘green’, Entertainer) in English, even if it’s technically ‘possible’. And since we’ve arrived at Scarlet…should Scarlett Johansson’s name be translated into the local language for ‘red’ wherever she goes? Should she be called Ppalgang Johans-adeul in Korea? Just because it can be translated?

irmar replies to snailshell:

I fully agree with you. In my country we have many immigrants who choose to adopt an easier to pronounce name. If I meet any, I always make it a point to ask for their real one, learn how to pronounce it and use that.

However, Geu-Rin in “Entertainer” was called Green by the bandmates, and there was this symbolic thing about the green umbrella. So in the show itself there was a wordplay about her name – therefore in that case, and only in that case, I think the subtitlers were possibly justified in writing that.

And LUNATIC4kd comes back to clear things up:

Please know that I meant NO disrespect when asking about Palgang vs. Red. I am actually obsessed with the correct use of correct names. It’s just that I haven’t heard the name ‘Palgang” as spoken by the characters probably because it is going over my head and I am just looking at the subtitles as I see them. I am committed to the correct use and pronunciation of all Asian names – and all non-Asian names. Our names are important! That’s why i was asking – because I wasn’t hearing (or seeing) her correct name! For instances, my real name is Christina – and absolutely NOT Christine – which people lazily use when first meeting me. I will gently correct when possible. So I just wanted to know why we’re seeing the name “Red” instead of ‘Palgang’ – when most drama subtitles tend to try to be correct with the right name.

 

DramaMama writes in “Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 8” comment #40:

On a more general philisophical note, I was struck by the contrast in the reactions of the people to ugly So vs pretty So. I thought how sad it was that people “back then” valued a person’s looks so much that they would throw rocks and mud/poop at someone they deemed ugly. But remove that blemish, and suddenly they are bowing down because that same exact person is now considered worthy. I even shook my head in dismay at how shallow people like that were – looking only at outward appearances.

And then it hit me how I am the same way. I watch dramas and then come on DB to gush over how gorgeous this actor/actress is and get excited to see which pretty faces will be in the next drama. It is the human condition to value external beauty, whether we mean to or not, and oftentimes we choose it over internal beauty. Because I don’t really know the character of any of the actors/actresses I prefer – so most of my judgments are based off of my impressions from their looks.

As one who is not beautiful on the outside, I try, more often than not, to hide my flaws behind a mask or (Goryeon) BB cream. But inevitably, that mask will come off. Hopefully when that happens, folks around me see a positive vision from my internal character, not a menacing one like Su saw at the end.

 

In the same post, Snowy writes in comment #123:

Nice, BB cream was created in Goryeo. I wonder if they’ll put Subway PPL in this drama and how on earth will they pull that off? xD

“Crown Prince, here is the sandwich you want as to-go.” ~CP starts convulsing like the ajumma in Doctors~ -dead- ALL HAIL CROWN PRINCE SO

manquant

Just to remind you, that “ahjumma in Doctors” and Wang Wook’s queen mother is played by the same actress.

I’ll never not remember Subway PPLs as that patient-killing-sandwich hahaha

A refresher…

 

silentbeluga writes about a contentious scene in “Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 9” comment #1.10:

From a narrative standpoint though, that kiss is complete genius. It’s not romantic, so it plays with the viewer’s expectations (who have been waiting for So-Su for a while now) and it accomplishes two major things at once: one the one hand, it makes you feel for So, it really does and on the other hand, you completely identify with Hae Su and you’re horrified. It’s sort of a perfect mash of his period behavior and her modern sensibility, which means that we, the audience, identify with Su immediately, and yet we can’t ignore the layer of compassion and understanding that we developed for So over the course of 9 episodes. I understand her. I understand him. I’m not ok with what’s going on from a personal point of view. I’m totally ok with what’s going on from a narrative point of view. It doesn’t fit my taste necessarily, but it fits both the characters at the same time, in completely opposite ways. It’s the sun and the moon at the same time. It’s actually brilliant. Thank you writer, I didn’t think you had it in you.

 

While Sinjuma shares the complicated process of watching Moon Lovers in comment #6:

In my k drama obsession, this is the first time I have to (1) watch the live international broadcast; (2) read dramabeans recap; (3) watch the web version again for uncut scenes.

But I am not giving it up \^o^/

bips99 replies:

its become like a treasure hunt … figure out which gold nuggets are missing from your basket and then scour the internet like crazy and try to find them

pogo:

I swear, this drama is the most work.

Only for Lee Jun-ki would I do this.

 

The Hye-ji problems continue this week, starting in comment #2 of “Cinderella and the Four Knights: Episode 11.” Gem writes:

No face please show up, please, please. You are the only known fictional character capable of handling problems like Hye Ji while breaking drama dimensions, please come quickly.

Curious:

LOL if W and Cinderella somehow did mix, I dont think we would need No-face. Hye-Ji would diappear on her own (like character without their reason to exist) after Hyin-min rejected her the first time. I mean she seriously ONLY exists to day dream about him so…just waiting for her limbs to start flickering and disappering.

 

And in “Cinderella and the Four Knights: Episode 12” comment #4, PBY writes:

We’ve found our resident emo’s weakness! We only have to put her in a car and she’ll keep driving straight around the globe ;D.
On a more serious note, it shows that her character is extra annoying because she wasn’t given dimension – the only building blocks we got were severe depression, obsession, and needles – not the greatest mix. This tiny flaw of being bad at driving actually made her less aggravating.

 

Samantha Reed writes in “Moonlight Drawn By Clouds: Episode 9” comment #39:

I just love love love how we all come to fangirl together here.
Ever since I turned 30, I thought that fangirly side of me that squealed and talked and screamed to her tv or a book was dead. However, PBG showed up in my life and I have been squeeing, blushing, laughing, since I first saw him in Hello Monster, and that was when he was a psychopath. Now that he’s a swoony swoony Prince there aren’t even ways to measure my fangirling over him.

maryxiah

I think age don’t matter, we will always be fangirls no matter how old we get.

 

Regarding the sign-language confession in Episode 9, Celine says in comment #4.2:

That wordless conversation of OTP got me in the heart once again. There were people around them, but they were in their own world where only the two of them understands what is going on. It was poignant.

michykdrama:

Yes. definitely one of the best scenes. So beautiful.

They say a picture paints a thousand words. That scene was definitely a novel in how to confess love in the most special way possible. <3

and

Oh and I want to add that it was extra extra special because of the way the producer decided to splice in Ra On and Prince Yeong doing the hand sign simultaneously. That was just so meaningful and added that extra little bit of perfection to an already moving moment.

I love how Ra On unintentionally always manages to move Prince Yeong into confessing his feelings. Previously it was also because she asked him if unrequited love was not worth confessing, and that spurred him to confess the first time.

I love how the 2 of them are so intertwined with one another and how much Ra On affects Prince Yeong, and how they visually showed that in the scene with the hand signs.

 

Jenny notes at #8:

I love that Raon just didn’t give in to the confession. She has this inner struggle where she can’t even live as a woman so how can she love as one? That’s just so poignant throughout and it just really stays true to the drama’s coming-of-age arc.

When she was recalling her mom saying that she can only stop pretending being a boy when she can finally protect herself. Ugh. *tears*

And of course, I love the fact that she is brave enough now to be herself as she wears the hanbok infront of Yeong.

sancheezy:

agree . . . she didn’t just accept him and that gives her moments to be herself by her own decision in the classic thinking,

“when I can protect myself”, isn’t this a very good message?

Flightey Gazelles:

I really love that we were shown her personal and inner struggle. It wasn’t easy for her to come to such a decision. But I loved that it was a choice she made, after much struggle, deliberation and angst.
I also love that she came, not knowing how they will proceed from now on, hell, its still going to be a challenge for them to be together( not even factoring in the marriage). But just like Crown Prince, who was ready to confess his feelings, knowing that there was almost no way their love could ever be (he thought she was a man, plus she is also a eunuch, a servant) but wanted to tell the truth anyway, not expecting any breakthrough or solution, its the same for Ra On. She’s facing her identity, its not going to be easy. Its not some breakthrough for them to be together, but its the truth. Its brave and its open and sincere. I’m sure they will find a way forward… THEY MUST!! Victory shall be ours!!!
That little Princess is so adorable!! I loved her story and was so touched when she went back to open the door her self! It was such a brave step. Say what you want to say, let the words come out. Honestly I just want you to be brave!!!

 

We have another name discussion in Episode 9’s post, at #37, starting with MikoDee:

That last line where he calls her real name was incredibly sweet. Let me bask in their sweet, yet forbidden romance for a second…

O_o, at #37.3:

I think KYJ deserves so much praise acting this scene to perfection. Having lived all her life as Hong Samnom (“nom” itself means guy, dude in Korean) you could see how strange she thought her name sounded pronounced by herself to introduce herself to another person. Like she was thinking “but who is this Raon person? Doesn’t the name sound awkward, even ugly? Does this person really exist?” But when the CP called her “Raon-ah” so lovingly, all her doubts were gone and she felt for the first time how sweet her name sounded and how lovable this girl called Raon was.

And here’s Chandler at #70:

I love that our leads respond to each other’s facial expressions, not just the words they say. It’s part of what makes me feel so much along with them. After Ra-on told him her name, you could see her nerves and uncertainty over appearing as a girl before him cloud her expression. I love that I could see Yeong taking note of all this, and that moment of dawning understanding before he came out with just the right thing to say: her name, intimately. Ahhh, just perfect.

I’m actually really excited to see where this step from Ra-on will lead so I hope they wait on the royal wedding angst until next week or, at the earliest, the very end of next episode. I want a chance to see if claiming her identity as a woman will change her behavior. And, now that she’s onboard the romance, I’m really excited to see how she’ll respond to Yeong’s swoony advances now that she has nothing holding her back.

 

In response to the prince’s “punishment” kisses in “Moonlight Drawn By Clouds: Episode 10,” Apluszee says at #4:

I’d defy the Crown Prince’s order anytime just to get that kinda punishment ?

crazyahjummafan:

I’m surprised at Raon’s lack of rebellion!
CP: “I would like to have my lunch now.”
RO: “No, you can’t.”
KISS

CP: “Pls go to the library and get the books I need.”
RO: “No, I won’t.” KISS

CP :”Don’t let anyone disturb me in the garden.”
RO: “Hello your majesty! I’m here!” Kiss.

I can think of many more ways to disobey him, many times a day!

 

Michykdrama writes in comment #9:

Beanies I am exhausted after watching. I had a whole body work out! This show is pushing all my emotion buttons non stop!

[…]

? Angry Rage Button
This is like a personal button for the useless King- he ALWAYS activates this!
He makes me so fuming mad! He is such a scaredy cat.

To which Chiisan replies:

Pffft I feel the same about the King. He isn’t meant to be a bad guy, he’s just…so incompetent. We get it, he wanted to create changes and failed, hence the paranoia, but in the present state, he’s just a lazy written character who asks his son the Crown Prince the same questions episode after the episode.

Prime Minister Kim: “We don’t like your idea because we no likey you.”
King: “Yeah my son will have better ideas. Son?”

Prime Minister Kim: “The Qing demanded more gifts and stuff.”
King: “What do we do with them, son?”

Prime Minister Kim: “Your son wants to throw away the exam!! The exam!”
King: “My son knows best. Son?”

People: “You’re lame and this country belongs to us.”
King: “Halp mee, son?”

 

In “Lee Shi-un joins My Sassy Girl as Joo-won’s pal,” Littlecat writes a whole show for our favorite dramaland sidekick. In comment #15:

Subong-ie!! I wish Lee Shi-un’s role in W would turn into the role that elevates him to leading man status? Haha, if that’s something the actor wants, anyway – maybe he likes his comedic side-kick niche?

They should make a drama about a comedic side-kick reluctantly elevated to leading man status due to some cosmic behind the scenes mishandling, starring Lee Shi-un.

Plot synopsis: Drunk heavenly being accidentally puts Truck of Doom in wrong place, puts Lead in coma… whoops! They beg comedic-side kick to take over the lead role (or you know, provide some filler content) while they try to fix things. A magic walkie-talkie/mirror/book/tablet/PPL is provided for side-kick and main lead to communicate while they are in different planes of existence.

It takes some time (and a some hilarious shenanigans) for Lee to get used to his new role, but once he gets into it, somehow he starts fixing all the drama that the original lead (his best bro) was in. You know, instead of best bro angsting about relationship/daddy issues alone in his car, ex-comedic side-kick just communicates what’s going on, because he ain’t got time for that dramatic nonsense.

The entire time, ex-comedic side kick just wishes his best bro would come out of the coma, because this lead thing is HARD.

In the end, due to ex-comedic side kick’s intervention, annoying second lead girl gets sent swiftly away, original main lead girl is found to be nice but mostly just friend material. Ex-comedic side kick may have a budding romance, but the true focus is the ultimate bromance between ex-side kick and lead which is solidified by their supernatural adventure together and maybe a birth secret or two discovered while original lead is in the Other world (gasp, could they be actual brothers?!).

 

Layle shares something that is worth pondering in “Shopping King Louis: Episode 2” #24:

I also like that Oska is 40 in this drama. I know people are sensitive about age difference. And I’ve seen countless commentators on DB feeling icky about it. But as someone with parents with 20+ in age difference and nearing 30 years of loyal and supporting marriage, I’m glad that kind of romance gets a chance to be portrayed in dramaland.

seo in guk and ji chang wook, welcome back! replies:

Oh, I’m so glad I’ve read your comment. T___T I’ve also seen many comments on this site discussing the age difference as if it was something wrong. I never replied back, but tbh, those comments really hurt me on a personal level. My parents have an 18-years difference in age. And I swear you’d be hard-pressed to find a more harmonious couple. Of course, they quarrel but I’m 23 now, and they’re still together. It really hurts me to see that outside of my sheltered world, people view their relationship as something to feel disturbed or icky about. People never say things to your face, but reading comments online, I’ve come to learn that the majority of people disapprove, or find it uncomfortable. It shouldn’t hurt me, but it does. Knowing that something I’ve come to admire and treasure so much can be viewed by other people as strange or even disturbing by default.

On a positive note, what I’ve learned from this is that I always try to be open minded with other taboo relationships. I’ve realized ascribing your own prejudice to love and judging it when it’s something so beautiful for the people involved really narrows your understanding. T_T

 

In “Fantastic: Episode 6,” odilettante ends the recap with a note about a certain horrible character:

I suppose I could just refer to him by his actual name, Jin-tae, but that just seems so toothless, like the way you’d refer to a hideous monster as “Steve.” So if someone has any suggestions for an appropriate name for the worst husband in the worst family ever, feel free to let me know!

purplefan writes in comment #4:

Jinpoop would do! Ugh!!! I hate him and his family so much!

To which Sparky adds:

Jin-turd? Jin-tallywanger? Jin-Dick. Yes, that family earns the Worst K-drama family ever award. What happened to the father? Did the evil mother and her spawn roast him on a spit? Or was he so evil, he just descended straight into hell?

Or hanie‘s restrained response in #10:

I have a few in my minds but there is a reminder to stay civil before I add a comment, so, can we sort of change the rating for this thread? My suggestion would require PG tag on it cause that family makes me feeling murderous!
I never so much feels the need to set the whole family on fire and watch them burn while cackling.

ET:

Thank you! I was feeling lonely and criminal, LOL!

For now, I have to be satisfied with Sul sticking out her foot to trip Jin-sook’s man. Last week I wanted Sul to put laxatives for the family’s meals. This week I was thinking arsenic but a quick death is too merciful.

angieya

This family makes me want to pull out some methods of tortures from the Qing Dynasty and considering their state of mind resembles more of Joseon than 2016 I think it’s quite apt. ?

 

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hi beanies just wanted to say that these always make me laugh or give me actual insight :) thank you!!

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It's funny about the translating names because I've never had a problem with people using an easier English name.
I may be white but my family immigrated from Poland after the second world war. And well, Polish names are just ridiculous.
So they went from being Jadwiga and Janusz to Jack and Jackie. Yes they named themselves after the Kennedy's which is still the most insanely immigrant thing I can think of hahahaha. I don't see what is wrong with having to have two names really. I mean, you shouldn't be forced... but it's not a big deal surely?
And when I was in China I made to pick a Chinese name to be easier there. And my Korean friends use my Korean one. It's just how it goes.

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To each their own. To you, your Polish name may not hold the same deep meaning but to others' names are a direct relation to their culture and identity. Besides, changing your name was a personal decision, but often times when (sorry no offence but I am speaking from personal experience here) White people tend to not even try to learn proper pronounciations and simply DECLARE it that they will call you by a shortened version of your name. The most BASIC kind of respect you can give someone when you meet them is by making an honest attempt at learning how to say someones name. Especially if they insist to be called by their real name. You (not you personally, in general) don't get to tell someone that you are going to call them something else because it is too hard to learn their name. If people are capable of learning and pronouncing latin scientific names or learning to pronouce long German, Polish, Italian, French and other White names then they can learn to pronouce Chinese, Korean, Indian etc. names. Its only fair.

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I am an Indian, I have an Indian name but I have lived in New Zealand my whole life. My name is liteally a single syllable. ONE syllable. It is five letters long, two of which are the same and are sitting next to each other. White people that I work with (who are scientists btw, hence the example of pronoucing latin scientific names in previous comment) will still mispronounce it. How are you (again, not you personally) going to convince me its too hard to pronouce our names when I KNOW these people are perfectly capable of pronouncing the most difficult of scientific names. They are lazy and disrespectful and inconsiderate. By telling me or other Indians (or Koreans or Chinese or Japanese etc.) that our names are too hard, you are telling me that you do not respect me or that you are not willing to respect me. You do not get to take our names away from us because you are lazy or it makes you uncomfortable to work with people of different backgrounds.

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Last semester I had an organic chemistry professor who didn't even try with student names. My school has both a large Polish population and a large Muslim population, and my class was quite diverse, so there were many names he probably wasn't familiar with (including my last name, which people mispronounce 90% of the time). But he wouldn't even try. There was a girl who sat next to me named Xinran, she was from China, and he would butcher her name. Completely destroy it in a new way every. Single. Time. Sure, the class was big (about 80 students) and I wouldn't expect him to have everyone's names memorized, but he never tried, never asked "How do you pronounce your name?". Unsurprisingly, he was kind of an all-around jerk anyway. And both his first and last name were really common, no native English-speaker would ever have trouble with either of them.

Again, he was an ORGANIC CHEMISTRY PROFESSOR. But of course he had no problem learning how to say all sorts of chemical compounds.

Compare that to my freshman year intro to inorganic chemistry professor, who within a month had every single student's name memorized (there were about 100 in the class) and would actually ASK students to tell him whenever he mispronounced our names. I really think part of it was because he had a difficult-to-pronounce last name (he just said "Call me Dr. D") and knew what it felt like to have it constantly butchered.

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Question: was the teacher English? So his names were English? Would non English-speakers have trouble with it?

I'm just wondering if his name is truly universal because I don't think any name is. Like John Smith & Jane Doe would probably be difficult for non native English speakers.

Props to your other teacher. Asking to correct is amazing. Because it's not just going to be the first day of class. It's going to be a random 4 week of school day where he mispronounces it. The fact that he wants help ingraining the pronunciation is admirable.

I have a simple pronunciation to me. But if a person sees my name before they hear it they always get it wrong, just say a name that has a couple of the same letters. But that was always substitute teacher day. My teachers learn it immediately.

I have a hard time pronouncing the most basic English names, don't even get me started on spelling. Even though English is my only language, and I feel so bad when I mispronounce it because it's a struggle they aren't used to.

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In Indonesia names sometimes has bitter and dark relationship with political situation. Circa 1960s many Chinese immigrants and descendants in Indonesia were forced to move out or change their names to more Indonesian-like names.. So basically every Chinese had to (willingly or forcibly) register his/her name in a new Indonesian name. For example "Tan" surname would change to Tanuwidjaja, Tanusudibyo, etc and they kinda have 2 names, their original Chinese name and Indonesian/western. The discrimination against Chinese people was real eventhough your name was Indonesian and you live your whole live here. Nowadays we don't have such policy although discrimination persists and I kinda wonder how their feeling when they were robbed of their name, identity.
Although Shakespeare said "what's in a name" I still think name is really important to distinguish ourselves and to show our identity/culture/roots/country.

Funnily enough young Indonesians nowadays rarely have "real" Indonesian names, they would just borrow names from Arabic/Western/Indian names.

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Many people think my name is hard to pronounce just because it's 8 letters long.. If they bother to break it up into syllables then they would have been able to pronounce it anyway. Personally I hate it when profs ask me if there's a shorter name they can call me by. Err prof, as if I know how to pronounce your name, but at least I tried. Some profs and teachers used to shorten my name whichever way they like which really annoys me.

So far the only people who bothered to learn how to pronounce my name correctly were my French teacher and my Korean teachers. I felt somehow my Korean teachers were able to translate my name into korean to get the pronunciation right.

Now whenever I introduce myself I'll just tell them to call me by my nickname. I bet half of them don't even know my real name.

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No, the issue isn't about having two names or not. If you're fine with it, then good!

My beef is that some people don't even T.R.Y. with the one name the poor person gives them. So the emphasis of my comment was actually "don't really try". Like, try some respect why won't you? That's his/her name, not yours. I know some sounds just don't come naturally and not everyone is talented at multiple languages but if the person never gave one any other name to go by, then try to pronounce his/her name properly.

And I think I should apologise to lunatic4kd. Sorry I came off as harsh but there was absolutely no heat in my words directed at you at all. I really have a problem with tact and it's just super obvious over the net, hehe... sorry.

I just never knew that Red was DF's doing and which was what caused the confusion (never came across that translation EVER) so I was so bewildered to see that question and just... answered in my blunt way.

And GeuRin should just be called GeuRin regardless of whatever running gag or symbolism her name had in the drama. Same argument as made for PpalGang. I was so confused when I kept reading Green on DB back then!

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Adding my apology here too! I was also not harshing on you guys, it's just a topic I generally feel really strongly about (see multiple comments below, lol).

I found 'Green' really jarring in Entertainer, and a mistake to sub that way. Because even if there's a Geu-rin/Green wordplay in Korean, it's based on the Korean pronunciation of the English word, NOT on the native pronunciation, which sounds completely different. Presumably, the majority of viewers using English subs are English speakers, and they're not going to read 'Green' as 'Geu-rin', they're just going to be confused or irritated. I didn't read the recaps, so I wasn't aware that DB also used 'Green'.

The other problem with translating out is that you lose the sense of wordplay and double entendre, which can easily be explained with an aside in the subs, as viki did for Ppalgang (they just added in brackets, 'ppalgang means red' - see? easy!). In Entertainer, her name *wasn't* Green - it was Geu-rin, and there was a play on 'green' because of it. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

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I always prefer it when the subtitles explain context, even if I have to pause to figure out what's going on.

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Isn't the thing that's different with Green is that was a legitimate nickname. If I recall correctly, you can mark when each other character draws closer to her & goes from "Geu-Rin" to "Green". It was the name Green chose or a nickname given that she liked. Not calling her it would be rude.

Maybe the translation affected how I heard it. But I remember multiple times, especially Ji Sung & Ha-Neul calling her Green on purpose.

Which is what I thought they were going for with Red but turned out it was just the translation team.

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Yeah, I lived in Japan for over a year, and my kids/teachers where I taught could NOT pronounce either my first or last name (both European/Gaelic in orgin). They'd try a few times, and then usually go something like "uh....do you have any nicknames?" Haruko was a nickname a Japanese exchange student had given me during my collage days, so I told them they could use that. *shrug* For over a year, I went exclusively by Haruko. After a while, I introduced myself that way. Heck, I still turn around if I hear it! Haha. It didn't bug me - they had a lot of trouble with the letters in my name, and honestly it was easier to respond to an alternative name than listen to my given name get butchered (sometimes I wasn't even sure if they were calling my name or not..). I'm still fond of - and identity with- my other name...as you might have noticed from my username :-).

And I have very strong feelings about my given name. I refuse to answer to diminutive or alternative forms of my name. So it's not that I don't care for my name. But it was given every single person I came in contact with every day trouble. It's a choice for each individual, but personally, I didn't think it was rude of them to ask if I would be okay with a nickname.

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This. My name is Melissa--not Missy, not Melly, not if you want to be friends. I taught English in Russia and Ukraine for five years. However, neither language has the short i sound, so I was always called Ma-lee-sa--which is the name of an herb (lemon balm). People made a big deal of serving me lemon balm tea (chai maleesa).

At first, I tried to correct their pronunciation, but later I figured that, while it might be rude to mispronounce someone's name, it's equally rude to demand someone make a sound that doesn't exist in his language. It was easier for me to go by my mispronounced name or a nickname.

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I agree with you - with some languages it is hard to pronounce some sounds that don't exist in theirs and therefore, it is quite difficult for them to say the words correctly. Especially if they don't have any talent in language learning and pronunciation..

I have no problem learning Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, French Polish or Slovak names - as long as they tell me how to pronounce it right. I always make a point of learning the real name. (I really didn't like those Bobbys and Cicis and Cocos I had to teach in China, but that is what the kids' parents wanted so..).

But, as I was teaching in Korea for some time I learned that it was hard for my students to pronounce my name correctly - with the correct rolling R and long /i:/ sound. My name is Riin and it always came out something close to Lyn. Native English speakers would have to practice the R sound for a long time to get it right, heck, some people in my country can't do it right.. kids have to practice it in the early days..
My Korean colleagues and students would call me 린 and I was OK with it. At first I tried to point out the /i:/ but .. well..

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Exactly. And it happens to a lot more people than you'd think.

I do agree with what some people said about people not trying though. Funny story about that happened at one of my jobs, when a guy with a relatively easy name had it butchered by everyone for apparently years.

He was a co worker when I worked at a very diverse, prestigious university (a top 5 US university). He was Germanic descent and named Leif. Everyone pronounced it Leaf, apparently assuming that was correct but never actually checking with him. And you have to understand - I worked with coworkers of Hispanic, Indian, Filipino, Vietnamese, Chinese, and more backgrounds, pretty much any background you can think of, with the corresponding traditional names, and ALL of those names got pronounced correctly. Finally another German descent co worker put a huge note on the office board that was all " hey guys, Leif may not make a big deal out of it, but you are all saying his name wrong. It's *Leyph* "

Not hard to pronounce at all, but even though the entire office had made an effort to get everyone else's names correct, they'd never bothered with his.

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I totally get what you mean by the name thing. I have an Asian name but I've changed the pronunciation of it in a way where I know it is possible for English speakers to pronounce and it's been that way forever (my name is two syllables, also not that hard) but I have had many instances where people just don't try.

I remember transferring schools and having one of the students at my new school say to me "I haven't heard a name like yours before, so how about I call you Jade?" She meant Jade as in the Bratz doll- because I was Asian. Another incident was a teacher who took an entire semester to get my name right, the entire class actually clapped for a relief teacher we had who got it right on their first try, but this particular teacher somehow managed to add and subtract letters to my name. She did ask me once how to pronounce it and after I explained she started crossing out a letter and rewriting my name so she could pronounce it, which would have been ok, except that was not how my name is said. After explaining to her why certain letters ARE said because of the origins of my name she ignored me in favour of her modified version and even with that lo and behold next lesson we had she went back to butchering my name.

For me, my name is also a big part of my identity (regardless of the minor pronunciation difference between languages) and whilst it's taken time for me to truly appreciate it and my parents decision not to give me an 'English' name I think it's all worked out int the end. It's the lack of effort to understand something just because it appears culturally different that gets to me. I have no problem with people adopting an 'English' name because I totally understand why it would be easier to do so (although it makes me sad to see many of my classmates embarrassed whenever a sub teacher reads out their 'actual' name as it appears on the role instead of their preferred one because they genuinely don't like their given name). TL;DR names are important whether they be given or chosen, just respect that and try to understand that.

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Being a substitute teacher for many years, the pronunciation of names is a real trauma for me.
And now, I read that mispronouncing names is "microagression."
Come on, YOU try to pronounce 25 new names each class period--that's over 125 in one day. Names that are from all different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. I understand having a name that is difficult and NOBODY ever pronounces correctly is annoying--but look at it from the other side. Plus there is the "let's mess with the sub" syndrome that I have to live with. (Karma, really. Because it was funny when I was in middle school.) One time I had a boy whose first name was "Zzyzx." Now, I've driven on the freeway past Zzyzx road, and my mom (who was a stickler for correctness) always said it was "Zizz-zick," short "i's." But when I read the roll like this he said, "it's Zi-zike." (long i's.) Can't win. But I try. (And I try to be kind while doing it. Poor kid. Who'd want to be named Zi-zike?" (And if that's your name and I've offended you, I apologize.)

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Please don't be scared to get a name wrong. Teachers have it hard memorizing 200+ new names every semester. As long as you try and are open to correction, I don't think you should be crucified for being unable to correctly remember and pronounce every possible name out there.

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Call Ppalgang "RED" is like

Call Hwasin "INCARNATION"

-____-

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or call Kang Chul "STEEL"
"INNOCENCE" instead of Soonjung
"FOOL" instead of Hogu
"FUTURE" instead of Mirae
I can think of many other k-drama character names with this kind of problem.

And I guess people will call me "girl" instead of my given name.

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Hi Girl! LOL

But in dramas sometimes names become a pun like Mirae's Choice could be translated Future Choice, Hogu's Love/Fool's Love and that's why the character is given such name to emphasize the title/motif of the character. But yeah of course no one would call Mirae as Future or Hogu as Fool.

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"I... have fallen in love with you, Innocence."

*thousands of drama watchers cringe*

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*Min-ho goes to visit Soon-Yung's mother*

*Min-ho looks her mother in the eye*

*He wipes sweaty hands on butt area of his pants*

*Steals a glance at Soon-Yung standing beside him*

*Looks back at a confused looking mother*

*Takes a deep breath and says...*

"I have fallen for your Innocence and I have come to ask you to give me your Innocence."

*The sound of thunder and the loud rumble from splitting tectonic plates breaks the tense moment*

(I can't actually remember if we were ever introduced to Soon-Yung's mother in the drama. I may have taken creative liberties here...maaaybe)

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"You..SCUM of the Earth! How dare you!" Mother cried.

whereupon, Great Agile quickly leaped over the wall and made a not too grand exit.

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"Yeah, how dare you!" - Drama watchers cried at the confusing turn of event.

Later, when the OTP is now happily married.

"My Innocence is gone." - Soonyoung's mother sighed.

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I am pretty sure I have not watched the drama you mentioned. But, your comment cracked me up! :)

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LMAOOOO! I am Nigerian, and we have a tribe that tends to name their kids the most ridiculous English words : Innocent, Faithful, Goodluck, Perpertual... you get the point.
I know a boy called Innocence, and your comment had me screaming!

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Sky is Haneul right? Imagine if they started referring Kim Ha Neul as Sky Kim.

Which reminds me, I remember there was one time a Malaysian newspaper converted '50 cent' (the rapper) into the Malaysian Ringgit equivalent.

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and my ability of seeing mirae, is telling me that you, all of you will be in the next edition of "BOW" (beans of wisdom)

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Hahaha I saw that too. Rapper 50 Cent (RM1.50)

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Your name is Gadis? It's a pretty name.. I've seen Wanita as a name too

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my friend name is Sukses

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I got confused when the subs I got suddenly translated Ppal Gang into Red (also it annoyed me)

I got even more confused when they didn't translate Hwashin too. LOL.

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Well, gosh - since it seems I started this whole conversation in Jealousy Incarnate (my first time ever in Beans of Wisdom by the way) I would just like to say again that names are incredibly important to me and I make every effort to learn someone's correct name and use it. I love learning Asian Names - and all other names. Our names are our heritage and the more tied together the world gets via the internet, and the more diverse our classrooms get and the more people are traveling to visit other countries, there is no excuse not the make the kind, respectful and civilized effort to acknowledge each other according to who we really are. So when people lazily call me Christine instead of Christina (which sounds as different to me as Ralph fro Robert!) I will let them do it once more before I gently say, "Hi, it's ChristinA" What's astonishing to me are the people who get offended when I ask for the correct pronunciation - as if it shouldn't matter so much to me because the slight difference should make no difference to me AT ALL. At that point all I can do is laugh and accept the fact that I will likely never get to know that person very well. Life's too short. So, Beanies, can someone with influence tell DramaFever to please use Palgang's correct name in the subtitles???

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I went through it, too..

Actually my name has simple pronunciation, even if the writting slightly looks like a foreign name.

One day, out of nowhere, my math teacher in Junior High School called my name using english pronunciation and it sounded totally different and weird. The whole class laughed at it and made fun of it a whole day.. I was really embarrassed and pissed at that moment.

I kinda understand if people confuse how to read or spell my name bcs it's uncommon but still it's annoying. Up until now, people still slightly wrong pronounce my name but I usually let it pass as long as they make an effort.

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About Layle and seo in guk seo in guk and ji chang wook, welcome back! comments on people judging relationships.

Struck a chord with me. As long as you don't harm others, really don't see the point of dooming anyone relationships based on shallow criteria like a number, gender or other, and it used to be race too. I don't have parents with a large age difference. But I have my own form of relationship where I've read comments here deeming it "exotic" or taboo or whatnot. So I won't share, but let's just say it's unusual. So I can relate.

I don't get why something uncommon should be judged, or make others uncomfortable. As far as I know, even common relationships have a tremendously significant rate of failure. So what makes them better by default? Just because they don't ascribe to your idea of what a matched pair should be like?

There used to be a time when people were told not to mate with others from different colors of skin. In many countries, you get judged for it even now. I know for a fact in Asia, you still get pressure to marry someone from your own country/ethnicity, and being Asian isn't enough.

That's just one example. There's so many examples of forbidden relationships in the past. Nobles/commoners. Some of those taboos have been broken, but it's sad to see others still get judged by criterion that are so shallow they shouldn't matter. Relationships are complex. Their success and failures depends on many criterion at once.

Just want to tell both of you that I've seen comments in here talking about age difference as a minus in their mind. Never replied back. But seeing that you've both been hurt personally by it, I'll tell you here that I giving you moral support. I know how it feels.

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Ppal Gan does mean red, though.

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I guess this has been thoroughly discussed, but...my name is June, which both a name for a person and the name for a month. When people in Spain called me "Junia" like the month, not just saying "June" like my name, it wasn't a problem at all for me :D So if that character has a name which also means the color red, it's cool, and maybe gives you an idea of her parents' temperaments too.

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Well.... I am from South America, but I majored in English at College. Most of my professors were English and Americans and they often changed my name to its English version, the way they are spelled is not so different, but when you hear it pronounced it sounds super different. So when they called out my name, sometimes it took me a minute to realize they were talking to me.

However, I don’t think most people do it to disrespect you or because they are lazy. It's mostly because a lot of foreign languages are hard. Even if you try all your life to learn a language you may never get fluent in it. Spanish (my mother tongue) is hard too, and I know there are sounds in my language a non-native speaker may never get. Like rolling Rs to cite one example. So I think that as long as they try to call me by my name, even if they butcher it, I should feel grateful they care enough to try. I've seen some people get mad over that, but I don’t think is fair to expect a foreigner to pronounce your name like a native speaker of your language.

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" I’ve seen some people get mad over that, but I don’t think is fair to expect a foreigner to pronounce your name like a native speaker of your language."

Respectfully disagree. We're not talking about 'foreigners' pronouncing our names, we're talking about *natives* refusing to respect our foreign, immigrant names (and therefore, identities) because they don't give a damn. As I said in the original comment, it's racism at the root of it. It's watching the BBC news where Fiona Bruce or whoever beautifully pronounces a complex east European name (well done, btw), but mangles a really easy two-syllable Arab or Indian name that someone in her studio is sure to be able to coach her to say correctly. It's Farid's colleagues deciding to call him Fred. It's Professor Dipstick easily rattling off long scientific names in Latin or Greek but being stumped by a short assortment of letters that make the name of someone who isn't white. Like other commenters have pointed out, it's not mechanical difficulty that stands in their way. It's an unwillingness to meet your identity. It says, 'you're not worth my time.' It is disrespect.

The fact is, a new language always takes time. Any of you who are not Korean and have been watching kdrama for a while can attest to this - that at first, you don't understand a thing. But slowly, the sounds resolve, you catch words here and there, the cadence, the sounds that are not in your native tongue, but your ear begins to discern. A name, though? So much easier. One word, I will repeat it for you a thousand times. Just try.

But most people don't, and won't, and if you correct them or try to help them, you're held to blame. That Key and Peele sketch is not just for laughs - it's a mirror of the real experiences we have. Please do read that toast link too, because I think Tasbeeh's story, apart from being beautifully eloquent, nails everything about the non-white experience of identity in white-majority countries, particularly English-speaking countries.

I don't think we should 'make it easy' for those people by giving them easy alternatives. On a basic level, that's just enabling, and it disrespects their ability to meet you in the middle. Let people come halfway. That's as far as we all need to go.

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@snailshell This was beautifully put and if after reading your comment people are still asking "Well, what's in the name? It's just a name." then it is simply willful ignorance. Not really surprised by the comments saying "I am surprised people are taking this name issue so seriously" because when we discuss racism we are always ALWAYS met with the "Oh get over it. By bringing up racism you are creating division. You are in our country and that is just how it is." But why?

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It's just another iteration of the black lives matter/all lives matter thinking. Maybe we need to say Ethnic Names Matter? (All names matter! or...no names matter?)

A little bit of me dies with each comment that says it's no big deal. It is a big deal. It's a big, big deal. If it's not a big deal, then goddamn just pronounce it properly and then it's not a big deal. My name has letters that don't exist in English, and I don't expect English speakers to get it perfect - I accept the nearest equivalent. But goddamn TRY. I want to see you listening, saying it back to me to check we're good, getting it as right as you know how to. I will do the same for you. And if, out of affection, you shorten my full name to a loving nickname, I don't mind at all. I'm not a churl. But I know when I'm being disrespected, and I do. not. accept it.

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Also, colonialism:

You will take what you're given and you will say thank you. You will have your name taken away from you, and you will say thank you. You are lucky to be here, so goddammit, say thank you.

Signed,
Your Colonial Overlords

PS, don't forget how awesomely we ripped away the identities of thousands (millions?) of African whom we also enslaved, raped, murdered and otherwise disenfranchised and dehumanised in every possible way. Names? They didn't even need their own when their owners could give them better ones!

...and that is why it all matters, even a name.

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But really, some people do not have the physical ability to pronounce names correctly, and then some people do not have the mental ability to remember correct pronunciations even after multiple attempts/days/months. This is really and truly truth. I've seen some of the most loving people I know live this difficulty. I myself have studied phonetics and I know what it takes to make a sound that is not in your language (I train singers in Italian/German/French/English) and for some people it will literally take a year to train an unfamiliar consonant or vowel combination.

All I'm saying is, it's probably best to give people the benefit of the doubt with names, instead of jumping to the conclusion that they don't care because they are racist/colonialist. If they really are racist, it will manifest pretty quickly in their other actions/words.

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It's funny, I just read this article the other day.

http://qz.com/775492/what-minority-students-hear-when-white-teachers-mispronounce-their-names/?utm_source=atlfb

I think it makes a good point. It's not so much a matter of perfectly pronouncing the name the first time, or even any time. It's the attempt to do it correctly, the mindfulness given toward someone's identity, and the willingness to listen and not just write it off. You're not mad at someone who's making an honest effort and failing--you get mad when someone says the equivalent of "Eh, it doesn't matter," and just calls you whatever they feel like.

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i am okay when the people in question chose a new, easier to pronounce name, because it's their name, their choice, and that means they identify with whatever name they chose. and sometimes, having an easier name really do makes your life easier in general. i have a 4 syllable name that is 1 word and cannot be shortened without it being awkward and the amount of repeats i have to go through each time whenever someone asks my name is plain annoying. that's why most of the time i just ask them to call me by a shorter version i chose myself and i am okay with it

what is not okay is when other people forcefully call you something else other than what you've told them just because it is easier for them.

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I totally understand where you are coming from and I agree some of it may have a racist slant.

But I think you must consider that different people have different language aptitudes and also that the language brain is mainly developed very young (I think below 7 years old).
I'm Asian and I was exposed to Chinese, hokkien, Malay and English. So I have no problems pronouncing the syllables for these. But I absolutely butcher European names. My tongue can't move right to make the sounds correctly. And I realize that also of my Caucasian friends can't pronounce Chinese names correctly- it's almost comical how I pronounce it for them, and they repeat it back to me, and it completely sounds different, but they just can't understand why. Lol. Of course there are the exceptions, and this isn't an excuse not to try to pronounce it correctly.

And I think as the person butchering the name pronunciation, sometimes it's embarrassing to keep saying someone's name "wrongly". So maybe that's why they "substitute" something else.

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It's a fair point, michykdrama, but I think the power dynamics in your case are different, related to actual mechanics rather than racism. Finding a name hard to say, or messing it up because it's difficult for you despite trying, is not the same as refusing to acknowledge it. (Also, don't beat yourself up about those name! They deserve a bit of mangling, lol.)

The situations I've described and experienced, on the other hand, are directly linked to racism rather than mechanics. The thing with racism (and sexism) is that it's all about the balance of power, which is why you will hear statements like, 'reverse racism/sexism don't exist.' Which is true, by a particular definition (I do not want to spark a debate about this - anyone who's interested can google it!) - racism and sexism basically mean that one party gains advantage over another based on the currency of race or sex. Therefore, there can be no such thing as 'racism against white people' or 'sexism against men', because the balance of power is still in their favour overall. (...I might have made a mess of this definition, so someone better versed in this stuff, please say it better!)

On the language point, brains are smarter than we think. I've taught Arabic to grown adults (Americans who've only ever spoken English) - a language where more than half the letters have no English equivalent whatsoever. They do fine. It just takes practice. Which is really my point: everyone can do it, we just all need to give each other a chance!

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when you were talking about difficulties while pronouncing European names I remembered this vine https://vine.co/v/inxjrXZOQtb

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Sorry if I offended you somehow. I just shared my personal experience in relation to the topic being discussed. My truth is not an absolute and it just relates to how I felt when put in a situation similar to yours.
Thing is, I've been lucky enough to never experience Racism in my environment. Our country is mostly homogenous, there's not much diversity (much like in Korea up until recently, I understand there's more diversity now in the big cities)

So my professors who were American and British were foreigners here, brought to teach in a foreign College. I felt like cutting them some slack, because I could imagine that their daily lives were difficult enough, trying to get by without knowing Spanish. I never expected them to get my name right, and was just happy with them at least trying. Also never felt they were not interested in learning it. They did try, but sadly some never got it right. Like someone below said, not all of us have the same ability to learn a new language or new sounds foreign to our language, and I am more of the mind of being tolerant than demanding everyone to know how to correctly pronounce my name. But again, that's my point of view, based in my situation and life experience.

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What @layle and @SIG and JCW welcome back ( whoo that was a mouthful ?) said is certainly worth pondering about. I can't help being a bit annoyed when people discuss couples with significant age difference with disgust. If you have a problem with on screen portrayals of those couples then you would definitely be prejudiced against them in real life. And that is a problem.

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opinions on this can be weighted by context, surely. Seeing one's parents' and grandparents' happy marriages as a child might be very different from how you'd feel about a twenty year difference between your own eighteen year old daughter (or son) marrying someone who's close to forty.

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I tend to lurk, but I had to comment.

"about a twenty year difference between your own eighteen year old daughter (or son) marrying someone who's close to forty"

I think that's the whole point of the discussion we're having. The information you gave is just numbers. 18. 40. 20.

The problem here is that people tend to see those numbers, and write whole stories about it without even being told more, or know the people behind those numbers. As someone discussed below, people's emotional maturity differ vastly even when they're the same age.

Yes, it won't work because difference in generation, maturity, and more in some cases. It's not a match for many because of various and complex personality reasons where age factors in. But numbers alone should not give those ideas.

Sure, that 18 & 30+ could not fit because there is a generational and maturity gap. The problem here is that should not be assumed automatically. People are all unique and stereotyping the compatibility of two people because of their age shouldn't happen.

Like all relationship, difference in political views, values, tastes, hobbies, etc could affect a relationship. Those can, but are not necessarily be affected by age, religion, culture, background, etc. But like race and religion and background should not be considered by default as incompatible like it used to be in the past, the point here is age alone is not a good factor enough.

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woooow.

I luurve ur comment.

So many good points. Haha.

Ancient people used to absolutely forbid love between aristocrats and bourgeois people. And we all know about white people not allowing interracial marriages for a long time. Or how people could get killed for marrying someone from different religion. Protestants and Catholics could not marry. All under the name of incompatibility or whatnot.

I think it's fair to say that those can be natural barriers enough for a relationship. If a relationship can't occur because of them, so be it. It's a whooooole other matter to impose your own prejudiced barriers on people as law, or sometimes, as effectively, as parental pressure. If the relationship works despite those barriers, or if those barriers do not significantly impact the relationship, then the only "real" barrier here is other people's prejudice. Ironically I want to add. Haha.

In short. Tooootally agree with other commenters here. I've seen so many comments saying that either someone is too young to know what they want, or something like a 7 or 9 years difference (not even 10+) makes them uncomfortable. *pout* Totally puzzles the heck out of me. You might not be the most mature at 18, but some have the ability to know exactly what they want even at 18. Sometimes out of life, sometimes out of love. ;) Why should your prejudice prevent them from spending their life with someone they love, and share their day with them, and grow old and mature together with their loved ones? Seriously. People think just because they can't do it, means others can't either. Hiiing.

Frankly, you don't have to be mature in all aspects, just in the one that matters. They could be bad at other things. If people know what job they want early, then good for them. They should do that job. :D If they know what they're good at early on, great, let them develop their skills. If they know what married life they want, that's even better if you think about it. That just means they are going to spend more years in blissful marriage than you. Hahahaha. And say they get divorced. That just means they have more experience to start another one earlier than you. They might even get better at it than you. Think about it.

So glad Dramabeans staff decided to gives this topic some serious discussion. Thanks loads. Mwuah.

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I agree. Personally I think the age difference doesn't matter, as long that they're both adults/of legal age.

I was reading some comments elsewhere saying that pairing Kim Go Eun and Gong Yoo for Goblin would be weird cause 'they look like a uncle-niece pair' but then news came out saying that Kim Go Eun is dating Shin Ha Kyun, who is older than Gong Yoo...wonder how these people would react to this news?

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I can identify with Insa - I find it hard to move on from a kdrama without completing. I guess its not just the time but also emotional investment you put in to some characters. Generally kdramas tend to stall around the halfway mark. 9-13 episodes is sufficient for simple romcoms. Why drag things out 16 -18 -20 episodes? Is it just the economics of production?

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Touching on @DramaMama's point regarding our judging on internal appearances and the reactions of the people in SH at So's new face, I struggle with that same conundrum as well. Am I not the same as the people that ridicule So for having a scar then accept him as a hero without a scar, due to my undying love for LJK's face?

I think what separates us from those past ideals, is that we while we love to love hot people, we never put down people that we don't find attractive or that look "different". You can see over at the comments for SH that we find it totally ridiculous to shun and judge So for his scar. It doesn't make him a good or bad person, and we obviously realize that. You never see us commenting "Oh I can't believe that person was cast. He/she is waaaay to ugly to play that part. They clearly don't deserve any of the love they get." We accept and love people with differences.

I think it's completely fine to fawn over people we consider attractive, as long as we don't push other down for not fulfilling our own standards of beauty. Not everyone finds Lee Sung-min hot (after Missing, c'mon y'all). Does that make him any less hot to me? No. I don't find Ryeowook (Super Junio) to be hot. Does that him make less hot to someone else? No.

Moral of the story: Love who you love, but accept everyone!

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Also, I think a good number of the people we fawn over are actually not classically beautiful. SIG, for instance. When first seeing him in Reply 1997, I didn't think he was good-looking at all. But as I got to know him in the drama, I fell in love (drama love-- you know what I mean) and I can't fall back out. So now when his hair's sticking up every which way and he's wearing an ugly tracksuit and ketchup on his face, I still think he looks great. Same for Lee Minho for me, and Doojoon and Lee Jongsuk and Lee Junki. They struck me as not good-looking at first and then by force of their charisma and personality they are gorgeous to me.

Of course there are guys that you can't argue are beautiful, like Bogummy and Song Joongi. :-)

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"We accept and love people with differences"
"Love who you love, but accept everyone!"

Yes! Love this!
We need more love and acceptance everywhere.
As they say: One man's meat is another man's poison anyway.

Besides it makes me happy to think that because of our different tastes and preferences, there is probably someone out there who thinks we are beautiful for who we are and what we look like when we just wake up, warts and all (ok maybe not warts, but you know what I mean). Because nobody is universally deemed to be "the fairest of them all" by everyone anyway.

Even Bogummy and SJK have their detractors who don't think they are beautiful (Yeah I think its Blasphemy, but they exist! haha.)

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Completely agree " it's ok to fawn over people we consider attractive " . And I don't think we beanies are all about looks. So many beanies have mentioned Kim Sam soon as one of their favourite dramas and she was probably one of the not so good looking heroines ( not the actress, I believe she deliberately put on weight for this ). So we do root for the characters and not just the looks

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I thought I was about to read the discussion about Ppal Gan's mothers and their issue, because I felt it's disjointed too. But I got a name discussion instead. Didn't know it was a 'big' issue here. (I prefer they didn't translate the name though. It confused me. everytime I read the subtitles."who's red ? A new character?" LOL)

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My grandparents have 14 year difference. And they live for a pretty long time together until their passings.
I personally find such gap really nothing much to squirm about. I just wanted to say that there are some viewers in which they are fine with the large gap difference, but not when one couple has one person not legal (as of age). I think that gets a lot of people rifle up about. Then there are folks that end up applying that age gap difference dislike to one couple where both are legal. Like one case with a younger male and a way older woman (I forgot their names but there is a story of an elderly woman and a young man before) where the commentaries... were so negative. This age difference when it comes to love varies and so does the opinions. Isn't really straightforward like I thought. Just sharing something here. I do find the issue of age to be hard to say and should not be a criteria to account for love, but it's something that people aren't accepting as much because there are cases in which there is an age difference for two people but it's not out of love (forced marriages or sold off... which sadly does happen) which really goes to making the age thing more negative than it was before.

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Completely agree wit snailshell. I live in Africa but on traveling to the west/ English speaking countries, it was always expected of me to know how to pronounce names of others or complex cities but difficult to pronounce my name. It is enabling the disrespect to mk it easier to give an English name than to give ur real cultural name which is ur identity. Every1 has a right to be identified by their name.

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Personally, I am fine with the age gap difference in the real world and in dramas like Last Cindirella. I absolutely love Shinohara X Miura.

Sorry if you don't understand. I don't speak English I just know how to read it

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No, your comment is written well. I understood it. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

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Shakespeare said "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." And that is true. But a rose is an inanimate object.

As a teacher, I try to live by Dale Carnegie's philosophy, when he said to "Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language." To me, this thought trumps Shakespeare because most people really do care. It just comes down to kindness and respect for the other person if I take the time to learn his/her name and try to pronounce it properly.

That being said, I appreciate it when the recappers (or even subtitlers in some cases) share what the names of various characters mean - it seems that kdrama writers often choose names that have meaning within the context of the story, even if it is simply humorous or sarcastic. As a non-Korean speaker, it is nice to be in on the joke or to understand the writer's point in choosing a certain name for a character.

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DF actually translated a name? Why don't they translate all names? I would watch one such example just for laughs.

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Idk if this is the one your thinking of, but BoF Nandi translates to grass or close to a homonym for the proper word grass, right?

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Jan Di? I don't know Korean but I'm simply translating from the Chinese characters. Yup, it translates to silk grass. Is that what Gu was chewing on?

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Lol, I don't know why my phone autocorrected that. I've written Jandi so many times.

I really wish they called her sick grass in the subtitles. It would make 24 eps a little easier to handle.

*but not be entirely respectful which is where the conversation is coming from.

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^silk

Goodness gracious!

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Sick grass is funnier. Autocorrect has a sense of humor.

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Gu as in Gu Jun Pyo?

I think it just means she's very resilient and can grow anywhere despite one's best efforts to exterminate. I remember the significance of her name because Meteor Garden had the same. She owns her name when she decides to stand up to the bullies and snobs at school who try their best to get her kicked out.

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I think the problem with age gap is that it's human nature to be a bit limited in your thoughts by your own standards or limitations. It's where lots of prejudices stem from.

If u think about it, it's such a narrow way to view the world though. Cuz people, and the world itself are really diverse. What doesn't work for some really work for others. But people tend to think that what doesn't work for them doesn't work for others either.

I see plenty of people thinking if you're young, you can't know much about love. But just like there are people whose intelligence will never be much their whole life, and others who are already geniuses when young. Or people who are overweight and people who are naturally, even over-humanly athletic.There are people whose maturity reaches them early regarding social skills, or compassion, or love. People develop differently from each other. Some people still don't understand much about relationship all their lives, some people find love early. Some people have never even have a girlfriend/boyfriend past their primes, and some lived a happy marriage life early. It's rather narrowing to think that a specific person can't know or understand what love is because they're young in age. There could be other reasons to object, such as immaturity in character. But youth itself does not preclude understanding about love, or the ability to love. Demanding that they delay it without understanding their level of feelings is unfair. You never know with life. Some people die really young. Or something else could happen. Why should you delay things in life, when life is short and you only live once, when you are sure that's what you want. And that it's what makes you happy and fulfilled.

And I notice people tend to label older men dating younger females as perverts. I can see where it applies to certain cases, but I know many real life examples where such is not the case at all. And where the relationship is much more loving and warm than many other "conventional" relationships.
People already find so much difficulty finding their significant others. Imagine how much more chance at finding love would open to you if you didn't limit yourself by age. If you find your match at life in terms of maturity and character, why should age restrict you. BS I call.

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Omo. You speak my heart.

I've seen men in their 50s who still behaved like frat brats, and young men in their 20s who would put those husbands to shame, given how loving and considerate they are. Sadly, I speak from family experience. Lolz.

Same here. I think it's unfair to judge another's relationship by your own standard. As you put it so succintly, people are so diverse that what doesn't work for you can work for plenty others. ^^

Age is an issue bc pple think that if you haven't experienced enough life, you can't know enough to properly love, or have a successful relationship. You might regret your choice later. However, as said you. Not all people are equal. Some are smart cookies. XP And some are more adept at love and knowing what you what from it than others. If you can vote, go to the army, and go to prison at the arbitrary number of 18, you should be given the chance to show that you have lived enough during those 18 years to know what you want out of love. Damn it, that's what you should do.

Hey, people know what they want to be, what their dreams are as early as in their childhood while others still don't in their 30s. Some people know what they want in a relationship early. If it makes them happy, what right do we have to comment on it.

What you said about life being short (and sometimes tragically too short) to stop yourself from loving someone just bc of age if you find the right person early on is spot on. Why do you have to limit yourself on the most beautiful aspect of life? Why not experience it for as long as you can? Plenty of people start late in life, and still get divorced, and more. :X Others start early and are still successful regardless of "experience."

It honestly bugs me so much that people can't accept someone who is legally an adult from entering a serious relationship just bc of their age. That might not work for you, but who is to say their maturity on that matter is the same as yours. >.( I'm only one of the few who were supportive. Makes me mad when I bout it. Now, all of them are fawning on how blissful their life is as if they didn't gossip and made it worse in the first place. People. Urgh.

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Why did my comment get cut? T_T

Is it the site's problem? Or my computer? I'm changing to my laptop to try.
I will not retype everything, but for clarification, I was talking about my cousin who got married when he was close to 19 to an older woman. He's in his 11th year of marriage know, when so many pple doomed it from the beginning and made it hard on him. It's why I'm taking this subject so personally. But he knew what he wanted, and would not budge from it, and showed those pple. :D His marriage is relationship goals for me. Breaks my heart when pple made it so hard on both of them during years. As if marriage wasn't hard enough.

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I think I know why my comment got cut. :D

It's because I used the brackets. Duh. XD Admin, if you can find the original content and restore it if it wasn't cute in the orginal format, that would be awesome. ^^ Otherwise, too bad. <3

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I couldn't find it :(

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On the subject of native English speakers mispronouncing names of people from different cultures, as a Native English speaker myself, one of my greatest embarrassments/fears is meeting people with *different* names and being *expected* to know how to pronounce them. Usually I just smile and ask straight up how to pronounce the individual's name but sometimes that is not possible, and also more often than not the individual says their name very quickly and I just stand there saying, um, sorry, could you please repeat your name? Cue embarrassment all around.
My point is, many native English speakers try to pronounce different names properly but since the names are often so different to what we are used to hearing, it takes a lot of time for us to get them right.

However, if your colleagues (or people you spend a lot of time with) are still not getting your name right - that is plain rude.

Finally I see that a few commentators are saying, if xyz can pronounce Latin properly then they should be able to pronounce xyz languages easily too. That is untrue. Latin is extremely easy for English speakers to pronounce. Why? At least 50% of the English language is either Latin or is based on Latin words. This means that we already know how to pronounce Latin! Furthermore Latin is even written in the same alphabet as is English and is also a very phonetic language (i.e. it is spelt exactly how it is pronounced). So when a Native English speaker sees a Latin word, by and large he/she should be able to pronounce it with little trouble. Conversely if a native English speakers says

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See, your discomfort is your own issue to deal with. If that is your one and only issue then it is just selfish. Instead of yourself, think how that other person will feel everytime you mispronounce their name. You being embarrased once while asking the person to repeat their name is nothing over the discomfort they will feel long term if you keep mispronouncing it. The point isn't that Latin is easy to pronounce because it is written in English. Seriously, do you think when we spell our name for people or when a teacher sees a students name on a roll call, it is written in that student's mother tongue? No it is written in English. Using English alphabet. So that is a weak excuse.
You asking us to repeat our name a few times actually is much appreciated as it shows that you are willing to give me the same respect that you expect. Please, from now on overlook your own embarrassement and keep on TRYING to pronouce the other person's name properly. No one expected you to know all the hard, difficult to pronounce English words from the day you began speaking. You learn over time by repeating and learning to maybe spell and sounding out the letters. Furthermore, the issue isn't that you might be saying it wrong AFTER TRYING to learn the proper way but the issue is you BUTCHERING it without asking the person to help you pronouce it properly in the first place. Clearly, you are already doing it right by asking them at least once so this discussion isn't really aimed at people like yourself.
I wish I was discussing drama and not this lol I think I will try to stop here.

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@curious
As a person who is bad with names (my memory for all names is terrible, I will remember your face, but I always have trouble remembering names), I just want to say that it is precisely because we know names are important and should be said correctly, that the embarrassment exists.

It isn't because we don't care, or can't be bothered, or only care about our own embarrassment, but sometimes I have other things on my mind- like carrying on the conversation in a semi intelligent manner- that names eludes me. Also, if it isn't a name that I am familiar with, say, in a language I don't speak/hear often, then I can't spell/remember it phonetically because my brain just can't process it.

And I am embarrassed because I don't want to call you wrongly or sound stupid in front of you because of the way I say your name. And I may need to ask more than once (or twice or thrice), which still makes me seem like a uncaring selfish person who can't even remember something as "simple" as a name.

So yeah, @Tanya I feel you and get where the embarrassment comes from and really it isn't personal against the person whose name we can't say or can't remember.

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@michykdrama
Thank you for articulating so beautifully the point I tried (and failed) to make.

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I think the confusion of names is because we completely aware that this is South Korean drama, means they used Korean names, so it does feel weird when they changed the name,

It's like calling Red from Shawshank Redemption: Ppalgang,

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I am finding this conversation on pronouncing names properly fascinating, particularly due to timing. You see, this week, I've been having fun going back through the archives and listening to all of the old podcasts from back before my Beanie days.* And every time Javabeans or Girlfriday say the name of an actor, I have no idea who they are talking about. Now I have been watching kdramas and reading Dramabeans obsessively for 3 years now, so it's not like I am unfamiliar with actors' names or the way Korean sounds. But somehow in my head I have been pronouncing these actors names with a decidedly American accent and cadence, and don't recognize them when they are pronounced properly without the benefit of subtitles. I kept having to pause the podcasts and puzzle it out with context, or by going back to the website to see the liner notes. And then saying the actor's name properly over and over in my head and hoping I would recognize it the next time it came up. And also that I would not revert back to my Americanization once I saw it in print again.

So, yeah, I'm part of the problem. At least knowing it means I can work on fixing it? Because I do agree that pronouncing someone's name properly is basic curteousy.

*Side note to any DB Staffers who read this comment: Podcasts #5 and #15 are dead links. I don't know if you still have them available to reupload --it has been several years-- but if you do, I would be interested in listening to them.

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"And every time Javabeans or Girlfriday say the name of an actor, I have no idea who they are talking about. "

This! I remember rewinding the latest podcast a couple of times because I couldn't catch the name Lee Minho or Minho as they said it. I knew Minho was at Kcon but still the way I heard JB and GF said his name sounded nothing like it. LOL. Glad I am not the only one :)

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I would like to respond to 2 different items being discussed. 1) Age differences for relationships. 2) Names.

1) My grandfather was about 20 years older than my grandmother, but they had a really loving relationship until his passing when my mother was about 8 years old. My mother stated that they really loved each other and the age didn't matter. So, as long as the couple is legal age or hopefully wait to become intimate until they are physically mature enough for that situation, then the age is not the problem.

What I mean mature enough is relative I know, but I just don't know the proper way of saying it without sounding condescending or contradictory. It is something like they should maybe wait til they were about 16 or older or legal age in the area, but not really younger than that. The reason is more for physical safety and the chance of pregnancy (in certain relationships) that would physically harm them if they start being intimate at a younger age.

So it is not really about an age gap, but a health issue, since I would say the same thing if they were the same age, etc.

2) About names. My 1st and 2nd (middle) names are French even though I am not French in any way and my last name is Polish, but it is really short (4 letters). I have Hebrew names that I never actually use that are hard to pronounce even by me. So I get every variation of spelling and pronunciation of my names.

In California, growing up, almost all of the students were from Mexican descent. Then I moved to Texas and had some foreign exchange students and took Spanish. In college I took French and Japanese. I then started watching Chinese and Korean dramas.

In my current job, I have read birth certificates and names of thousands of people by now and I know that I would not be able to pronounce some of them. It is not from lack of trying or a form of discrimination, it is a lack of being able to get my tongue around the syllables. I try not to pronounce the names if I don't have to when talking to people on the phone in order to not mangle their names by mistake.

Don't get me wrong. Watching dubbed shows is painful due to the mispronunciation of the character's names. Watching subs that translate some of the names is just as bad. But, in some cases, asking to pronounce it multiple times and not being able to alone should not make the person angry if the person cannot say it.

Yes the person should ask how to pronounce it and try. But getting angry at them for not being able to fluently state it even after trying multiple times is also selfish in it's own way. We need to be able to let some things go. Our names are important and it is not right to force others to lose their names or to not have a name, but in order to co-exist with people different than us, some leeway must be given.

So, all I can say is to try to help the ones who want to try and then let them call you something else in the event they cannot do it.

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No one is really asking for fluency right off the bat, though? Like, if you see the name "Seo-eun Eom" on a sheet of paper and don't know how to pronounce it, that's fine. But if I introduce myself to you and give you the pronunciation, but you decide it's too hard to remember and say "Yeah, no, I'm just going to call you Sunny," THAT'S problematic.

On the other hand, if I decide that instead of my real name* I will go by Sunny, it's fine for people to call me that. As someone with a name that looks difficult on paper, I understand when people butcher my name. I don't mind if they say "How do you pronounce that?" I've spent lots of time coaching strangers on the phone/at the bank/in stores through my name, and I don't mind. Honestly, most of the time, people with difficult/~ethnic~ names realize that others will have trouble with their names. But it's not really asking so much for others to respect the names we introduce ourselves with. Even if you don't pronounce it perfectly at least TRY

*Seo-eun/Sunny isn't actually my name; just an example :)

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Yeah, and some people change there names for reasons beyond simple pronunciation issues. My friend Brianna, who I met when we both worked in Japan, usually goes by Brie. Unfortunately, "Bree" was a common fish in the area we lived...so she introduced herself as Brianna. Saved her from a lot of confused looks and inadvertent giggles.

A friend I met in freshman year had immigrated from Korea in middle school. She went by Sunny. I asked her what her given name was, and which she'd prefer. She hesitated over even telling her given name - I can't remember the exact name, and certainly can't spell it, this was 10 years ago - but what I do remember is that when said at a normal speed it sounded amazingly like "bit*hy". Yup. Probably not how you want to introduce yourself in middle school, I'm sure. She said that her name had a very bright/cheerful connotation in Korean, so she choose the name Sunny. I could tell she liked her Korean name, but totally understood why she'd use - and be happy with - an alternative/new name.

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Also, to add about names.

It is not right for the people who didn't try to just call you something else, true. But, can you honestly state that you can fluently say every name you see written down or that you hear in a show? Can you truly state that you have never had trouble saying someone else's name, ever?

There are some children who cannot pronounce their own names. There are some parents who give their children nicknames because they cannot spell or pronounce the name they gave their child. I have seen it.

Not every name or word can be pronounced by everyone. People learn to speak growing up and at a young age have the ability to say pretty much any sound, but they lose that ability as they get older. I cannot trill my r's so I had trouble in Spanish. I cannot change pitch for Chinese. I haven't studied every language, so the English literation ("translation" or "pronunciation" using English letters) that we are given would be pronounced differently without me knowing that unless the person tells me themselves.

Languages that use different writing systems do not always get changed into English letters the same way and some cannot really be changed, so a close approximation is given instead. Many people would not know how to pronounce a name or word without someone pronouncing it for them slowly and in context first. And even then may not be able to say it correctly. Ever.

We must be open to learning new things and should not be treated badly when we try and possibly fail. I know people from many countries that I lived near, went to school with, and work with. They have just as much trouble with English as I have with their native languages sometimes. I give them that leeway and just ask them to repeat it if necessary.

That is all we can do if we want to co-exist with other people.

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I agree with what you say. Some people may struggle pronouncing your name, but it'd be wrong if they didn't try at all. I have a friend whose name is written as Toua, most people would pronounce it as Tu-a, but it's actually pronounced as Za-o, so if she didn't clarify people would have just called her Tu-a. Name can be a sensitive issue because we identify with the name we grow up with, I actually used to really hate my name because it sounded so common and old-fashioned, but now that I'm older I learn to appreciate it more and I get offended if people don't call me by my name, it'd make me feel like they're calling me names.

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I love the Shi Un potential drama!

On the serious name discuss, I was annoyed and confused. Fine the parents named her the word for red. But that's that. It's her name. When DF translated it, I was like they never translate names. My volume was low at first so I was like is her name "Red", in English? Which wouldn't be that strange. Then I heard Ppalgang. My confusion went though the roof. Why translate her name when most Korean names are a phrase or a word? Why not translate Hwa-shin? Is it a word or slang for Jealousy?

I don't mind names being translated in a different setting. Like if you move or you're traveling. I prefer transliteration so I can keep my name. But translating to keep my meaning would be important to me too.

Like with Scarlett it would be strange if she was just in Korea for work, like they were for Avengers 2. In that setting I say call her by name unless she asks if there's a translation and she wants to use it.

If someone moved to SK with the name Scarlett, Red, Magenta, Burgundy etc and asked to be called Pplagang, I wouldn't force their born name on them. But if they just moved without a suggestion, I would prefer them just keeping their name and our side working on pronouncing it.

To me, enough practice you'll get it. That's how I can say Spanish, African, French, Korean names I thought I would struggle with. Some I did struggle with for quite some time and still say wrong occasionally. But guess what? The people always answer.

I'm team transliteration because I think it's cool. My name is Rina and I transliterated it into Korean & Japanese. It's translated into Hebrew because it's a real name for girls. But I didn’t translate the meaning for Korean & Japanese because that's not what I wanted.

Names are strange. Every one can form their own opinion of what to be called in a foreign country. Hopefully if people can't say it, even with practice, the person can find a name they feel something for and suggest that instead of random people trying to name you when people already did. The only one with that power is you.

Age difference is getting annoying. I am a fan of ahjussi romances, noona romances, oppa romances, ahjumma romances, chingu romances (my parents were 5 months apart, no age to use to power play there). As long as both parties know what they are getting into and what they want to get from it, let it be.

Romance levels, financial levels, status levels, in-law levels, give & take levels, etc and their affects: should be decided by the couple together. If they are happy with it, no one else gets a say.

Instead of talking about the potential power play of any kind, let's hope that both parties are mature enough to be in a relationship. When you're not mature enough, using anything you have over (power play) and lack of confidence (reverse power play), is possible with any age romances. All 5 romances mentioned have that potential, maturity makes it...

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Maturity makes it disappear.

I had 32 characters left. I checked, I swears it!

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Hwasin is incarnate. Jealousy is Jiltu

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Thanks. Idk why I thought I was the other way, lol.

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Speaking of names.. Can I call Jin Jung Seok as Jin Sang from Drinking Solo? It is his real name right?

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As a person who has never left the place I was born in (I am really hoping to visit Korea someday though), I have had no difficulty in other people names and no one has called my Name differently. So, I find the names discussion fascinating especially because I have never thought of that before. This is what I love about dramabeans, it exposes me to stuff that I would have never thought of before with my limited experience in the world like the difference in age not being a barrier to love for some people, the thought about external appearances. It brings together thoughts from so many people in different parts of the world, that I feel like I have a greater understanding of life. Though the love for dramas is what brought all of us here, dramabeans is so much more than just discussion about dramas.

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Names are as much their phonetic sounds as their meanings. People identify with the sound of their name as it is called out.
And if someone wants to take another name for whatever reason, that should be their choice.
For example, my name means "star". But if people randomly called me "Byul" I wouldn't like it, because despite the meaning, that's not my name. However, if I went to Korea and said my name was Byul to make it easy for others it would be fine, because that's how I'm choosing to identify. Its all about a persons ownership of their own identity

I think dramafever just made a wierd and incongruous choice to translate Ppalgangs name. Its not as bad as swapping out all japanese names for american ones as has been done in official manga translations *shudders at the travesty*

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The rememberence of Jimmy Kudo and Rachel Moore flashing through my mind. They have a beautiful name and yet have to give it up accordingly. I am slightly bleeding inside for Shinichi and Ran.

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