I have come to the conclusion that BTS’s music writers/producers don’t actually know much about music, which is why their songs all sound the same to me. Throughout their career, they’ve been re-using the same beats, instrumental tracks, and techniques over and over so much that it doesn’t come as a total shock to me that their entire latest album went in one ear and right out the other. I had hopes with LY:Tear that they were improving on this front, but this was the worst album of theirs yet in my opinion. The only song that I could vaguely recall after hearing once was Persona, and that was just because it was a spinoff of one of my favorite older BTS tracks.
I’m suspecting that, because all you need to make a decent sounding song now is a computer, a lot of music composers nowadays don’t have the musical background knowledge necessary to venture beyond the formulaic box of what they know how to do on the computer. And, as a result of that, the more songs they make the tighter and tighter that box’s constraints become and the harder it is to create distinctly different music. Anyone can write a hit song pretty easily, but it takes a lot more to be able to create music that’s long-lastingly memorable. I was hoping BTS would be a close replacement for the loss of the one k-pop group I stanned, but it looks like there’s sadly no real comparable alternative to my favorite group after all.
B.A.P. Although in a lot of ways I’m grateful for their fall from the top, some days it really gets to me that there’s no other group just like them. I highly recommend checking them out if you’ve never heard of them. I might post some tracks on my wall soon as well out of nostalgia.
Have you ever listened to TheEastLight? Their music was really different from most groups. They were a band and tried a lot of different styles. I thought their first album was good and their second album was even better. Unfortunately, they’ve also disbanded (?)
**disclaimer. I don’t mean to attack you Hobbakky, I’ve been vocal about my dissatisfaction with this latest album. But I think what you’ve said is unfair on many levels.
I looked up the credits and there are a LOT of external producers this time, many of them big names like Ed Sheeran. If I recall correctly, I didn’t see Slow Rabbit’s name at all. I don’t know how much artistic control BTS’s in house producers were able to exert.
[Well I recommend double checking the credits. I don’t know if what I saw was very credible.]
Until now, the last thing one can accuse BTS producers of, is being lazy on their production. A lot of the music is overproduced in fact. 😅 (But I like it) They may indeed employ similar tricks and techniques but they’ve been working very well so far
It’s also unfair to expect BTS or any other group to replace your once favorite group. Each group is made of different people and consists of different music. A replacement is impossible.
But what really gets my goat is to say all the songs sound the game. 😅 Nope. BTS have a wide and varied discography. Although yeah – if you mean this album, yes they kind of do blend into one another. 😑😑
You’re fine. I knew the post would ruffle feathers easily, but sometimes I just want to post something without writing an essay explaining why. I easily can end up writing novel-like/essay replies so I’d rather wait for someone to complain before I go into detail ^^;
I can’t speak much to the producers comment because there’s a lot about music credits that I don’t fully understand, but I’m getting the sense that even after a song has gone through the external producer the owner of the song still modifies and tweaks it to their liking. I’m not entirely sure though. Either way, when I said music composers/producers I meant it very generally. This actually isn’t a problem that’s specific to BTS. I’m realizing it’s very prevalent nowadays, especially when it comes to k-pop, and I think it’s because of how the music production process has become completely digitalized. In some ways, the reliance on computers has made it much much more difficult to write music.
I’m not accusing anyone of being lazy or that the songs are bad exactly. Like I said earlier, it doesn’t take much to be able to write a good sounding song once you know the formula for how to do so. That’s why pop music is often considered cookie cutter music. Which is fine, by the way, I love pop music and also have a quite a few BTS songs on repeat on my playlist. What bothers me is that their music often comes across to me as being dictated by the computer, which is why I think a lot of the people making their music (and other producers too) aren’t actually educated much in music.
Ideally, when you write a song you would want to start with a vision of sorts of what you want it to sound like and then work to figure out how you can build that particular kind of sound. But the way these computer programs work is that you’re given a blank slate and a candy shop worth of pre-made “loop” options to build up from by dragging/dropping and cutting/pasting. Unless out of the hundreds of thousands of loop options you’re given you find the ones that exactly match the sound for your envisioned song, you would need to compose it yourself completely from scratch. Without a background in instrumental music/music theory, that’s extremely difficult to do. That’s why what often happens is people instead skim through the options until they hit a loop they think sounds cool and then extend it and make that the base for their song, regardless of whether it’s the sound they originally had in mind. And as they keep doing that with every element of the song they add, it becomes that the computer dictates the vision of the song rather than the composer.
@greenfields Part 2 This is why I kept my original post short lol
That’s what I think happens with a lot of BTS’s music and it’s why I think their songs sound the same. I may be more sensitive to this since I’ve taken a class in music production before, but I can really easily pick out the loops and such that they use in their songs so they always sound very computer-generated to me. And then on top of that, it feels like they are very often picking loops from the same “folders” as if they don’t know how to work with anything other than the ones they’ve worked with before. For instance, it’s hard for me to find songs of theirs that aren’t built off of synth beats. Ever since their debut in 2013, I’ve always been hoping they’d utilize more real instrument sounding tracks than electronic, but sadly, more often than not, they seem to favor the electronics.
Anyway, I guess this all just goes to say that I’ve learned to stop expecting BTS to grow into the kind of group I wish they would be. I really liked a couple of their earlier albums back in ~2014 so I was holding out hope for them, but I think I’m just going to have to accept that their music just isn’t my ideal. I do still like them as a group though.
Thanks for offering this explanation and insight. I now understand what you meant – and actually agree with you a little. Your original post is too brusque. 😅
Yeah. as far as I’ve seen in videos of their studios etc, there are a LOT of computers. Of the members themselves, Yoongi has a piano and keyboard he uses (I guess?) to compose his music. I really don’t know about any of the others and/or their in house producers. I’m no music person so I look for producer reactions occasionally and a couple have let slip (while making it seem like they love the song but who knows the truth) that “these instruments are not real” or “ah I see now the pattern”. The music is synth heavy, definitely. Especially the titles. Like I said earlier, I think a lot of it is over produced, and could do with a scaling back of the “noise/sound”.
Synthetic heavy is also a major issue I have with kpop. 😅 Can’t tell what’s computer though, and what’s not. But I don’t much like club music.
I do however, as a non knowledgable person, have to say this:
1. Whatever they are doing musically combined with the marketing of the boys is really working. Clearly. 😅 I have to admit it sounds good as well to my non knowledge ears.
2. This came up on my post criticising the latest album, but I do believe (as a result of #1 that) BTS’s producers’ feedback loop is broken. Everything they put out is an instant hit – so perhaps they don’t feel the need to do anything different.
3. I’ve been thinking lately that the magic of BTS lies in the b sides, the solo mixtapes, the collabs, SoundCloud releases and the covers. This is where the raw lyrics that drive my love for BTS lie, together with Suga’s best rap (I’m Suga biased – he does lesser in the titles, especially lately). Think songs like “Promise” (Jimin’s 2018 Dec SoundCloud song) or “Song Request” (prod. Tablo, Suga’s 2019 Jan feature on Lee Sora’s album). I don’t know if they’re computer generated or not – but these songs have definitely touched me.
Q. So you’re basically saying with real instruments they could bring much more variety and life into the music?
Having dabbled in BAP and Youngguk fast creeping up my favourite Korean composer list, it is impossible but I also see where she’s coming from. BAP and BTS debuted around the same time with a similar debut “concept” at least, that style was popular in 2012-2013 and for a time BAP was bigger than BTS. Then I believe there was some kind of scandal (she can correct me if I’m wrong I haven’t followed BAP till recently) and BTS sort of filled the gap that BAP had made, in fact I have seen people comment about the two before, theorising that maybe if BAP and Block B hadn’t had to go through a lot of stuff so early on in their career, maybe BTS wouldn’t have got as big, if they both hadn’t had so many company issues maybe K-pop would look different now. Ofc that’s a pretty big maybe but it’s interesting to note how big BAP and Block B were at one point and how BTS stepped into that gap. I myself wanted a different direction for BTS’ music too, as you know, and I think it’s natural if one had followed them since the 2014 eras to want them to continue in that vein only to them have LY and this… Well…
To be honest though, sad as I am we currently have no BAP as a group, I think I prefer the freedom that BAP and Block B currently have in the music careers over the world wide fame and profit driven production like BTS. :/
@sicarius – the kind of success BTS are seeing has a lot to do with luck. Being at the right place at the right time and grabbing the right opportunity. Musical/artistic ability alone is not what will make for success. As I don’t have musical knowledge, I won’t comment on anyone’s ability or non ability (and instead just appreciate other’s insight) but I can comment on luck. It’s a real thing. BTS are on a pattern of wins. It’s a pattern that’s incredibly hard to come by. It’s unfortunate that groups you think are better musically didn’t make it to this kind of success but that’s how it is. Luck.
You know that I prefer BTS’s music over Block B’s × 100. So there’s no way I can honestly agree that that Block B are better musically. Feel free to call me ignorant, since you have some background in music.
I haven’t heard BAP. On the other hand, I’m glad BTS have been successful enough that their music reached me.
As for creativity, like I said, I do think Bangtan are freer in the other releases. Even their solos during the LY era, particularly the rap line solos and unit songs were very much them. Computer generated or with real instruments, I don’t know – and this is a point I will concede to Hobakky. I wish they would reduce the synths as well, and it’s entirely possible / likely that they’re using the computer & pre-prepared loops. Given the fast pace at which they’re putting out music, stuff like this is probably quicker as well.
@greenfields
Oh no I’m not talking about the ability of any group over another- my point was similar to yours. BAP was big, then they weren’t and then BTS filled the hole because original style similarities. But it was still Luck that it happened how and when it did.
My point had nothing to do with music ability or what I think is better or not, rather style and what was popular and what wasn’t and a reason for why I understand why Hobakky felt the way she does about BTS Vs BAP.
@sicarius – I see. Since the discussion is framed in the context of Hobakky’s words “BTS’s producers don’t know how to make music” and that using instruments makes for better sounding music (see below, well, growth and long lasting memorability) – I misread your comment.
But in other words, you do think that the way Block B produce their music is different from the computer heavy in K-pop?
@greenfields I think Block B uses a lot of older music influences, namely versions of jazz fusion, and simple percussion beats I can only assume come from 90s hip hop, which automatically means more “real” instruments for the former, and just less everything for the latter, being especially noticeable in their B-tracks.
Zico has said himself he draws inspiration from that a lot and you can hear it in his work.
I’m not saying they don’t use computers or digital loops but not many of their songs are heavy on the oversaturated synth, and less and less so now. I don’t even think they have an EDM song at all. They have a lot of other weird stuff, but not, in my opinion, many if any, songs like Hobakky is talking about.
You might disagree- because certainly their title tracks are not calm, but HER has 60s rock influences, Jackpot jazz, Very Good classic rock and metal, Nillili Mambo classical and classic rap. So… yeah in short, I do think it’s different than most kpop.
Mostly because of Zico, but they all tend to write older styled songs, with the occasional exception.
Zico co-wrote Psy’s I Luv It for example- the demo version he wrote is much more retro than the final. Guess which version I like more.
The short answer is yes, I do think using more real instrumental tracks would definitely provide great growth and better long-lasting memorability for them. I have questioned year after year why they don’t experiment more with other instruments and now I think I realize it’s because they actually can’t. By the way, by “real instruments” I mean the sound of the individual track in the music file, not necessarily that they need to all learn to become a band. Those keyboards you see in studios are MIDI keyboards and can be used to write any instrument, including percussion, without having the physical instrument plugged into the computer.
The thing with synths is that they’re the easiest “instrument” to work with because they lean more towards “noise-maker” than musical instrument. It’s the kind of track where the only way you can mess up with it is by over-using it. Often a lot of people new to writing music do something EDM or club sounding for that reason. I remember the professor in my music production class literally put together a synth-based song in 5 minutes on the first day to demonstrate to us just how easily you can make a song that sounds like it could be on the radio with literally zero prior music experience.
If you think about it, it makes sense that if you’ve never played the guitar or piano before it would be very difficult to compose a song from scratch using that instrument. Similarly, if the only music theory you know is the 3-5-4 chord progression used in pop songs and you’ve never studied about time signatures, different rhythms, counter-melodies and such, it would be very difficult to write a song in a style that differs from that format you’re familiar with. That’s why I said I don’t think a lot of these writers and such know much about music. They may be experts in what they specialize in, but don’t have enough other fundamental music knowledge to be able to experiment outside of that box.
To be fair, you are right that they are very good at what they’re doing. Although anyone can make a hit, it takes a great amount of skill to be able to do so consistently. But, sadly, being a “hitmaker” doesn’t necessarily mean you are a great PD or composer if you’re always making the same kind of hit, right? I feel like Map of the Soul might be a sign that BTS is coming up against a wall in terms of musicality because of that weakness in music production skills. And with the pressure to keep producing albums that would be hits in the mainstream U.S. music scene, I imagine it’s not very likely that they are going to take the time and risks necessary to attempt to create a hit in a new style that they aren’t confident in.
“But, sadly, being a “hitmaker” doesn’t necessarily mean you are a great PD or composer if you’re always making the same kind of hit, right?”
I’m with you. Artistic ability =/= success. Luck has a lot to do with it. Its that undefined “x” factor where you’re in the right place at the right time with the right people and the right opportunity comes along and your rightly grab it and go on to do the right things with it, and that develops into a cycle.
It’s interesting that you say that the way they make their music is similar. How I wish more people with knowledge broke down music for laypeople. This doesn’t take away my love for them, but I want to understand what it is I’m consuming/enjoying. If they’re taking “shortcuts” of the kind yours taking or if they’re horrible people – these things matter since I’m giving my time and energy.
I guess for you it’s something similar to what I (as a lawyer) feel when I watch legal dramas. 😁
Hear hear.
One of the biggest reasons I find it hard to really like any newer K-pop at the moment is because of how little real instruments are used. And it’s why I keep going back to say… Block B’s music for me in K-pop anyway (BAP for you maybe) because of the lack of synth and computer generated loops. It is unbelievably refreshing to hear a guitar after so much digitally processed music.
Not my favorite album either. And I’ve read that lack of time and different collaboration may have been the cause. Time because they just finished their tour a week ago. Or it’s possibly because the album is supposed to be lighter in concert. I don’t know.
But what I do know is BTS wasn’t asking to be the replacement of your stanned group in your heart. If you like it, you like it. If you don’t, you don’t.
Same as you, I also believe the songs are not memorable. This album will not get them Grammys, if that’s what they are still aiming for. I do think that marketing has come into play more with this album, rather than the songs themselves.
After SNL performance, I am excited to see them live at their concerts next month.
I also disagree with your very first statement. Give them at least some credit. They would not have gone this far out without know how to make one. They would not even make it out of South Korea if they don’t know how.
There’s a lot of different factors that resulted in Map of the Soul ending up the way it did, my post was based off of one particular aspect that I’ve been noticing for the 5-6 years with BTS. You can see my reply to greenfields above for more of an explanation for why I said what I did.
There are a lot of reasons to like BTS and there’s nothing wrong with letting this album grow on you. I’m sure their concerts will be great and I hope you enjoy them. It’s just that for me personally, I’ve reached the conclusion that no matter how many tries I give BTS they just aren’t likely to ever completely live up to my expectations for them. They were in many ways the one k-pop group with the most similarities to my favorite group, but it turns out they’re not similar enough to provide the same kind of satisfaction for me.
Kind of sad this article doesn’t really mention Block B who I see as game changes in bringing Hip Hop back into K-pop too, and a link between Big Bang and BAP, given that they debuted in 2011 (their 8th anniversary is today yay), but then I also see Block B as more of a parody group than “socially conscious”, often making statements via what is almost satire than direct commentary and obvious concepts, and they have I would say more of a sideways effect on K-pop than direct stylistic influences like everyone mentioned here so it makes sense.
Anyway this article is basically exactly what I was talking about in my comment above about BTS filling the BAP hole.
Aw, I remember Block B! They were another one of my favorites music-wise, but I didn’t really click with the group itself (and now Zico has ruined it for me…). Block B has a lot of really fun songs though.
I got somewhat lost in the flood of comments lol but I did want to add one more thing for you @greenfields Everyone uses loops and computers in their music. That’s just the direction music production has taken now. I don’t want you to think that BTS are cheaters who use shortcuts or something when actually everyone uses the same shortcuts. It makes sense since in-house producers for entertainment companies write several albums a year because they normally have multiple groups to write songs for and they need all the help they can get from pre-made computer loops to be able to push out the amount of songs they do in a year.
The difference is that a skilled and knowledgeable writer will know how to hide and embellish the loops in a way that makes them much less obvious to the listener. Generally, when you hear the same ~4 measure pattern repeating almost non-stop for the entire duration of a song, which tends to happen a lot with BTS’ songs and pop songs, it’s a sign of weak writing. Does that mean the song is bad? Not at all. The song can still sound great and be addictive to listen to, but if someone’s writing dozens of songs and they all follow the same pattern it can be a sign of the writer’s limitations.
Although it sucks that B.A.P. had a terrible company, they are actually very fortunate to have been a part of TS and to have gone through the trials they did. They were exposed to a huge variety of music styles, built up relationships with a multitude of different songwriters, and ended up learning a great deal in the course of their seven years as B.A.P. under TS. It ended up being a good experience for them overall and the caliber of their solo releases lately is proof of that, in my opinion.
This is the one aspect that I think BigHit is failing BTS. The boys aren’t being given enough opportunities to work with different styles and people that can teach them more about songwriting. Instead, RM and Suga are steadily being molded into the next Pdogg or Bang Shi Hyuk kind of “hitmakers” and that’s putting them way behind the curve when compared to other idol producers like Zico and Bang Yongguk. Fortunately, I think this is merely a problem of lack of education. Zico and Yongguk have their fair share of amateur sounding songs, but they were fortunate to have been introduced to great songwriters early on in their careers that helped mold them into the songwriters they are today. I’m sure BTS has similar potential, it’s just a shame that this far along into their careers they’ve shown less growth compared to their peers.
Thanks for this clarification ^^ I didn’t mean cheaters and did use “shortcuts” lightly. But I’m enjoying reading your views & I wish I had an agreement/supplement/counter haha. If a more verbose reply comes to mind, I’ll type it tomorrow morning. Just wanted to let you know I read it, thanks! 😊
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Hobakky
April 13, 2019 at 8:40 PM
I have come to the conclusion that BTS’s music writers/producers don’t actually know much about music, which is why their songs all sound the same to me. Throughout their career, they’ve been re-using the same beats, instrumental tracks, and techniques over and over so much that it doesn’t come as a total shock to me that their entire latest album went in one ear and right out the other. I had hopes with LY:Tear that they were improving on this front, but this was the worst album of theirs yet in my opinion. The only song that I could vaguely recall after hearing once was Persona, and that was just because it was a spinoff of one of my favorite older BTS tracks.
I’m suspecting that, because all you need to make a decent sounding song now is a computer, a lot of music composers nowadays don’t have the musical background knowledge necessary to venture beyond the formulaic box of what they know how to do on the computer. And, as a result of that, the more songs they make the tighter and tighter that box’s constraints become and the harder it is to create distinctly different music. Anyone can write a hit song pretty easily, but it takes a lot more to be able to create music that’s long-lastingly memorable. I was hoping BTS would be a close replacement for the loss of the one k-pop group I stanned, but it looks like there’s sadly no real comparable alternative to my favorite group after all.
RaOnAh loves Jay B 💚
April 13, 2019 at 8:46 PM
Who is your favorite group?
Hobakky
April 14, 2019 at 7:05 AM
B.A.P. Although in a lot of ways I’m grateful for their fall from the top, some days it really gets to me that there’s no other group just like them. I highly recommend checking them out if you’ve never heard of them. I might post some tracks on my wall soon as well out of nostalgia.
RaOnAh loves Jay B 💚
April 14, 2019 at 9:14 AM
I have heard of them. I watched JB’s episode of Celebrity Bromance with B.A.P. Youngjae. Youngjae used to be a JYP trainee so he and JB are friends.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 4:35 PM
I second this. Disbanded though they may be BAP has amazing music.l and concepts. Bang Youngguk’s latest album is truly amazing.
RaOnAh loves Jay B 💚
April 14, 2019 at 4:42 PM
Have you ever listened to TheEastLight? Their music was really different from most groups. They were a band and tried a lot of different styles. I thought their first album was good and their second album was even better. Unfortunately, they’ve also disbanded (?)
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 6:14 PM
Yeah please post tracks. I haven’t heard any BAP.
greenfields
April 13, 2019 at 8:51 PM
**disclaimer. I don’t mean to attack you Hobbakky, I’ve been vocal about my dissatisfaction with this latest album. But I think what you’ve said is unfair on many levels.
I looked up the credits and there are a LOT of external producers this time, many of them big names like Ed Sheeran. If I recall correctly, I didn’t see Slow Rabbit’s name at all. I don’t know how much artistic control BTS’s in house producers were able to exert.
[Well I recommend double checking the credits. I don’t know if what I saw was very credible.]
Until now, the last thing one can accuse BTS producers of, is being lazy on their production. A lot of the music is overproduced in fact. 😅 (But I like it) They may indeed employ similar tricks and techniques but they’ve been working very well so far
It’s also unfair to expect BTS or any other group to replace your once favorite group. Each group is made of different people and consists of different music. A replacement is impossible.
But what really gets my goat is to say all the songs sound the game. 😅 Nope. BTS have a wide and varied discography. Although yeah – if you mean this album, yes they kind of do blend into one another. 😑😑
greenfields
April 13, 2019 at 8:52 PM
Same* not game.
Hobakky
April 14, 2019 at 5:59 AM
You’re fine. I knew the post would ruffle feathers easily, but sometimes I just want to post something without writing an essay explaining why. I easily can end up writing novel-like/essay replies so I’d rather wait for someone to complain before I go into detail ^^;
I can’t speak much to the producers comment because there’s a lot about music credits that I don’t fully understand, but I’m getting the sense that even after a song has gone through the external producer the owner of the song still modifies and tweaks it to their liking. I’m not entirely sure though. Either way, when I said music composers/producers I meant it very generally. This actually isn’t a problem that’s specific to BTS. I’m realizing it’s very prevalent nowadays, especially when it comes to k-pop, and I think it’s because of how the music production process has become completely digitalized. In some ways, the reliance on computers has made it much much more difficult to write music.
I’m not accusing anyone of being lazy or that the songs are bad exactly. Like I said earlier, it doesn’t take much to be able to write a good sounding song once you know the formula for how to do so. That’s why pop music is often considered cookie cutter music. Which is fine, by the way, I love pop music and also have a quite a few BTS songs on repeat on my playlist. What bothers me is that their music often comes across to me as being dictated by the computer, which is why I think a lot of the people making their music (and other producers too) aren’t actually educated much in music.
Ideally, when you write a song you would want to start with a vision of sorts of what you want it to sound like and then work to figure out how you can build that particular kind of sound. But the way these computer programs work is that you’re given a blank slate and a candy shop worth of pre-made “loop” options to build up from by dragging/dropping and cutting/pasting. Unless out of the hundreds of thousands of loop options you’re given you find the ones that exactly match the sound for your envisioned song, you would need to compose it yourself completely from scratch. Without a background in instrumental music/music theory, that’s extremely difficult to do. That’s why what often happens is people instead skim through the options until they hit a loop they think sounds cool and then extend it and make that the base for their song, regardless of whether it’s the sound they originally had in mind. And as they keep doing that with every element of the song they add, it becomes that the computer dictates the vision of the song rather than the composer.
Hobakky
April 14, 2019 at 6:28 AM
@greenfields Part 2 This is why I kept my original post short lol
That’s what I think happens with a lot of BTS’s music and it’s why I think their songs sound the same. I may be more sensitive to this since I’ve taken a class in music production before, but I can really easily pick out the loops and such that they use in their songs so they always sound very computer-generated to me. And then on top of that, it feels like they are very often picking loops from the same “folders” as if they don’t know how to work with anything other than the ones they’ve worked with before. For instance, it’s hard for me to find songs of theirs that aren’t built off of synth beats. Ever since their debut in 2013, I’ve always been hoping they’d utilize more real instrument sounding tracks than electronic, but sadly, more often than not, they seem to favor the electronics.
Anyway, I guess this all just goes to say that I’ve learned to stop expecting BTS to grow into the kind of group I wish they would be. I really liked a couple of their earlier albums back in ~2014 so I was holding out hope for them, but I think I’m just going to have to accept that their music just isn’t my ideal. I do still like them as a group though.
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 7:07 AM
Thanks for offering this explanation and insight. I now understand what you meant – and actually agree with you a little. Your original post is too brusque. 😅
Yeah. as far as I’ve seen in videos of their studios etc, there are a LOT of computers. Of the members themselves, Yoongi has a piano and keyboard he uses (I guess?) to compose his music. I really don’t know about any of the others and/or their in house producers. I’m no music person so I look for producer reactions occasionally and a couple have let slip (while making it seem like they love the song but who knows the truth) that “these instruments are not real” or “ah I see now the pattern”. The music is synth heavy, definitely. Especially the titles. Like I said earlier, I think a lot of it is over produced, and could do with a scaling back of the “noise/sound”.
Synthetic heavy is also a major issue I have with kpop. 😅 Can’t tell what’s computer though, and what’s not. But I don’t much like club music.
I do however, as a non knowledgable person, have to say this:
1. Whatever they are doing musically combined with the marketing of the boys is really working. Clearly. 😅 I have to admit it sounds good as well to my non knowledge ears.
2. This came up on my post criticising the latest album, but I do believe (as a result of #1 that) BTS’s producers’ feedback loop is broken. Everything they put out is an instant hit – so perhaps they don’t feel the need to do anything different.
3. I’ve been thinking lately that the magic of BTS lies in the b sides, the solo mixtapes, the collabs, SoundCloud releases and the covers. This is where the raw lyrics that drive my love for BTS lie, together with Suga’s best rap (I’m Suga biased – he does lesser in the titles, especially lately). Think songs like “Promise” (Jimin’s 2018 Dec SoundCloud song) or “Song Request” (prod. Tablo, Suga’s 2019 Jan feature on Lee Sora’s album). I don’t know if they’re computer generated or not – but these songs have definitely touched me.
Q. So you’re basically saying with real instruments they could bring much more variety and life into the music?
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 7:07 AM
Synth*
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 7:09 AM
But I stick to my point of not hoping you’ll find a replacement for the group you’ve lost. That’s…I think…Not possible.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 4:52 PM
Having dabbled in BAP and Youngguk fast creeping up my favourite Korean composer list, it is impossible but I also see where she’s coming from. BAP and BTS debuted around the same time with a similar debut “concept” at least, that style was popular in 2012-2013 and for a time BAP was bigger than BTS. Then I believe there was some kind of scandal (she can correct me if I’m wrong I haven’t followed BAP till recently) and BTS sort of filled the gap that BAP had made, in fact I have seen people comment about the two before, theorising that maybe if BAP and Block B hadn’t had to go through a lot of stuff so early on in their career, maybe BTS wouldn’t have got as big, if they both hadn’t had so many company issues maybe K-pop would look different now. Ofc that’s a pretty big maybe but it’s interesting to note how big BAP and Block B were at one point and how BTS stepped into that gap. I myself wanted a different direction for BTS’ music too, as you know, and I think it’s natural if one had followed them since the 2014 eras to want them to continue in that vein only to them have LY and this… Well…
To be honest though, sad as I am we currently have no BAP as a group, I think I prefer the freedom that BAP and Block B currently have in the music careers over the world wide fame and profit driven production like BTS. :/
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 5:59 PM
@sicarius – the kind of success BTS are seeing has a lot to do with luck. Being at the right place at the right time and grabbing the right opportunity. Musical/artistic ability alone is not what will make for success. As I don’t have musical knowledge, I won’t comment on anyone’s ability or non ability (and instead just appreciate other’s insight) but I can comment on luck. It’s a real thing. BTS are on a pattern of wins. It’s a pattern that’s incredibly hard to come by. It’s unfortunate that groups you think are better musically didn’t make it to this kind of success but that’s how it is. Luck.
You know that I prefer BTS’s music over Block B’s × 100. So there’s no way I can honestly agree that that Block B are better musically. Feel free to call me ignorant, since you have some background in music.
I haven’t heard BAP. On the other hand, I’m glad BTS have been successful enough that their music reached me.
As for creativity, like I said, I do think Bangtan are freer in the other releases. Even their solos during the LY era, particularly the rap line solos and unit songs were very much them. Computer generated or with real instruments, I don’t know – and this is a point I will concede to Hobakky. I wish they would reduce the synths as well, and it’s entirely possible / likely that they’re using the computer & pre-prepared loops. Given the fast pace at which they’re putting out music, stuff like this is probably quicker as well.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 6:04 PM
@greenfields
Oh no I’m not talking about the ability of any group over another- my point was similar to yours. BAP was big, then they weren’t and then BTS filled the hole because original style similarities. But it was still Luck that it happened how and when it did.
My point had nothing to do with music ability or what I think is better or not, rather style and what was popular and what wasn’t and a reason for why I understand why Hobakky felt the way she does about BTS Vs BAP.
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 6:26 PM
@sicarius – I see. Since the discussion is framed in the context of Hobakky’s words “BTS’s producers don’t know how to make music” and that using instruments makes for better sounding music (see below, well, growth and long lasting memorability) – I misread your comment.
But in other words, you do think that the way Block B produce their music is different from the computer heavy in K-pop?
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 7:03 PM
@greenfields I think Block B uses a lot of older music influences, namely versions of jazz fusion, and simple percussion beats I can only assume come from 90s hip hop, which automatically means more “real” instruments for the former, and just less everything for the latter, being especially noticeable in their B-tracks.
Zico has said himself he draws inspiration from that a lot and you can hear it in his work.
I’m not saying they don’t use computers or digital loops but not many of their songs are heavy on the oversaturated synth, and less and less so now. I don’t even think they have an EDM song at all. They have a lot of other weird stuff, but not, in my opinion, many if any, songs like Hobakky is talking about.
You might disagree- because certainly their title tracks are not calm, but HER has 60s rock influences, Jackpot jazz, Very Good classic rock and metal, Nillili Mambo classical and classic rap. So… yeah in short, I do think it’s different than most kpop.
Mostly because of Zico, but they all tend to write older styled songs, with the occasional exception.
Zico co-wrote Psy’s I Luv It for example- the demo version he wrote is much more retro than the final. Guess which version I like more.
Hobakky
April 14, 2019 at 5:00 PM
The short answer is yes, I do think using more real instrumental tracks would definitely provide great growth and better long-lasting memorability for them. I have questioned year after year why they don’t experiment more with other instruments and now I think I realize it’s because they actually can’t. By the way, by “real instruments” I mean the sound of the individual track in the music file, not necessarily that they need to all learn to become a band. Those keyboards you see in studios are MIDI keyboards and can be used to write any instrument, including percussion, without having the physical instrument plugged into the computer.
The thing with synths is that they’re the easiest “instrument” to work with because they lean more towards “noise-maker” than musical instrument. It’s the kind of track where the only way you can mess up with it is by over-using it. Often a lot of people new to writing music do something EDM or club sounding for that reason. I remember the professor in my music production class literally put together a synth-based song in 5 minutes on the first day to demonstrate to us just how easily you can make a song that sounds like it could be on the radio with literally zero prior music experience.
If you think about it, it makes sense that if you’ve never played the guitar or piano before it would be very difficult to compose a song from scratch using that instrument. Similarly, if the only music theory you know is the 3-5-4 chord progression used in pop songs and you’ve never studied about time signatures, different rhythms, counter-melodies and such, it would be very difficult to write a song in a style that differs from that format you’re familiar with. That’s why I said I don’t think a lot of these writers and such know much about music. They may be experts in what they specialize in, but don’t have enough other fundamental music knowledge to be able to experiment outside of that box.
To be fair, you are right that they are very good at what they’re doing. Although anyone can make a hit, it takes a great amount of skill to be able to do so consistently. But, sadly, being a “hitmaker” doesn’t necessarily mean you are a great PD or composer if you’re always making the same kind of hit, right? I feel like Map of the Soul might be a sign that BTS is coming up against a wall in terms of musicality because of that weakness in music production skills. And with the pressure to keep producing albums that would be hits in the mainstream U.S. music scene, I imagine it’s not very likely that they are going to take the time and risks necessary to attempt to create a hit in a new style that they aren’t confident in.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 6:08 PM
👏👏👏👏 you read my mind
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 6:11 PM
“But, sadly, being a “hitmaker” doesn’t necessarily mean you are a great PD or composer if you’re always making the same kind of hit, right?”
I’m with you. Artistic ability =/= success. Luck has a lot to do with it. Its that undefined “x” factor where you’re in the right place at the right time with the right people and the right opportunity comes along and your rightly grab it and go on to do the right things with it, and that develops into a cycle.
It’s interesting that you say that the way they make their music is similar. How I wish more people with knowledge broke down music for laypeople. This doesn’t take away my love for them, but I want to understand what it is I’m consuming/enjoying. If they’re taking “shortcuts” of the kind yours taking or if they’re horrible people – these things matter since I’m giving my time and energy.
I guess for you it’s something similar to what I (as a lawyer) feel when I watch legal dramas. 😁
Which is your favorite group?
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 6:33 PM
(to clarify – I don’t mean that BTS were only lucky. There’s talent, effort, perseverance etc all there.
But the scale of success they’re seeing – that’s a factor of luck)
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 4:40 PM
Hear hear.
One of the biggest reasons I find it hard to really like any newer K-pop at the moment is because of how little real instruments are used. And it’s why I keep going back to say… Block B’s music for me in K-pop anyway (BAP for you maybe) because of the lack of synth and computer generated loops. It is unbelievably refreshing to hear a guitar after so much digitally processed music.
drawde2000
April 13, 2019 at 10:38 PM
Not my favorite album either. And I’ve read that lack of time and different collaboration may have been the cause. Time because they just finished their tour a week ago. Or it’s possibly because the album is supposed to be lighter in concert. I don’t know.
But what I do know is BTS wasn’t asking to be the replacement of your stanned group in your heart. If you like it, you like it. If you don’t, you don’t.
Same as you, I also believe the songs are not memorable. This album will not get them Grammys, if that’s what they are still aiming for. I do think that marketing has come into play more with this album, rather than the songs themselves.
After SNL performance, I am excited to see them live at their concerts next month.
drawde2000
April 13, 2019 at 10:52 PM
I also disagree with your very first statement. Give them at least some credit. They would not have gone this far out without know how to make one. They would not even make it out of South Korea if they don’t know how.
Hobakky
April 14, 2019 at 6:53 AM
There’s a lot of different factors that resulted in Map of the Soul ending up the way it did, my post was based off of one particular aspect that I’ve been noticing for the 5-6 years with BTS. You can see my reply to greenfields above for more of an explanation for why I said what I did.
There are a lot of reasons to like BTS and there’s nothing wrong with letting this album grow on you. I’m sure their concerts will be great and I hope you enjoy them. It’s just that for me personally, I’ve reached the conclusion that no matter how many tries I give BTS they just aren’t likely to ever completely live up to my expectations for them. They were in many ways the one k-pop group with the most similarities to my favorite group, but it turns out they’re not similar enough to provide the same kind of satisfaction for me.
greenfields
April 14, 2019 at 8:47 PM
So @hobakky & @sicarius – thanks for the intro to BAP. Honestly the more I learn about Kpop the more fascinating (& murky) it gets.
http://seoulbeats.com/2019/03/bringing-hip-hop-back-to-k-pop-a-retrospective-on-b-a-ps-career/
It’s honestly too bad this group was under what sounds like a shitty company.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 9:38 PM
That is alas the case with a lot of talent. Bad timing, bad management and shitty companies kill a lot of groups. And a lot of my favourites…
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
April 14, 2019 at 9:47 PM
Kind of sad this article doesn’t really mention Block B who I see as game changes in bringing Hip Hop back into K-pop too, and a link between Big Bang and BAP, given that they debuted in 2011 (their 8th anniversary is today yay), but then I also see Block B as more of a parody group than “socially conscious”, often making statements via what is almost satire than direct commentary and obvious concepts, and they have I would say more of a sideways effect on K-pop than direct stylistic influences like everyone mentioned here so it makes sense.
Anyway this article is basically exactly what I was talking about in my comment above about BTS filling the BAP hole.
Hobakky
April 15, 2019 at 7:26 AM
Aw, I remember Block B! They were another one of my favorites music-wise, but I didn’t really click with the group itself (and now Zico has ruined it for me…). Block B has a lot of really fun songs though.
Hobakky
April 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM
I got somewhat lost in the flood of comments lol but I did want to add one more thing for you @greenfields Everyone uses loops and computers in their music. That’s just the direction music production has taken now. I don’t want you to think that BTS are cheaters who use shortcuts or something when actually everyone uses the same shortcuts. It makes sense since in-house producers for entertainment companies write several albums a year because they normally have multiple groups to write songs for and they need all the help they can get from pre-made computer loops to be able to push out the amount of songs they do in a year.
The difference is that a skilled and knowledgeable writer will know how to hide and embellish the loops in a way that makes them much less obvious to the listener. Generally, when you hear the same ~4 measure pattern repeating almost non-stop for the entire duration of a song, which tends to happen a lot with BTS’ songs and pop songs, it’s a sign of weak writing. Does that mean the song is bad? Not at all. The song can still sound great and be addictive to listen to, but if someone’s writing dozens of songs and they all follow the same pattern it can be a sign of the writer’s limitations.
Although it sucks that B.A.P. had a terrible company, they are actually very fortunate to have been a part of TS and to have gone through the trials they did. They were exposed to a huge variety of music styles, built up relationships with a multitude of different songwriters, and ended up learning a great deal in the course of their seven years as B.A.P. under TS. It ended up being a good experience for them overall and the caliber of their solo releases lately is proof of that, in my opinion.
This is the one aspect that I think BigHit is failing BTS. The boys aren’t being given enough opportunities to work with different styles and people that can teach them more about songwriting. Instead, RM and Suga are steadily being molded into the next Pdogg or Bang Shi Hyuk kind of “hitmakers” and that’s putting them way behind the curve when compared to other idol producers like Zico and Bang Yongguk. Fortunately, I think this is merely a problem of lack of education. Zico and Yongguk have their fair share of amateur sounding songs, but they were fortunate to have been introduced to great songwriters early on in their careers that helped mold them into the songwriters they are today. I’m sure BTS has similar potential, it’s just a shame that this far along into their careers they’ve shown less growth compared to their peers.
greenfields
April 15, 2019 at 12:46 PM
Thanks for this clarification ^^ I didn’t mean cheaters and did use “shortcuts” lightly. But I’m enjoying reading your views & I wish I had an agreement/supplement/counter haha. If a more verbose reply comes to mind, I’ll type it tomorrow morning. Just wanted to let you know I read it, thanks! 😊