I don’t disagree that the issues I have in episode 9 and 10 ultimately lead to a discussion about the premise itself, and any issues therein.
You are right in that the gumiho characterization of this story requires feeding off humans in a predatory way.

However, I do disagree that the dynamic has been consistent from the beginning: In my opinion, it has got worse, and this is why I have brought it up now, and not beforehand, and this contributes to why I have dropped it now, and not earlier.

I also think that execution of a premise still matters, and that this show had the opportunity to not make its premise worse, or at least treat it differently, which also contributes to why I personally kept watching up until now.

If the premise itself is enough flawed in the first place to call into question why I should’ve started it at all, then that’s on me, and why I continue to consume media of any kind at all.

1. I disagree that the dynamic has been consistent since the beginning, since beforehand, the show obeyed its own magic rules, and only whilst the marble was still in her was her energy drained. This issue WAS addressed, and lead to Woo Yeo removing the marble because he realised, he cared too much for her, to allow her to stay in that energy draining state.

Then the show changed its magical rules upon them getting back together after episode 7+8, and introduced a much more obvious and intense human x predator dynamic, and made it so that he was draining her energy WITH OR WITHOUT THE MARBLE, at a faster rate, and in a way that demanded more physical contact. Prior to 8 he was unaware of and then unwilling to admit his feelings- why should he care that he is draining her energy, he’s not supposed to care about humans. (Note: I am not trying to defend any inherent predatory nature in the initial premise, just trying to point out how it changed.)
After 8 the show ramped up the predatory factor, and only explicitly BECAUSE they are now DATING. Before 8, he did not want to eat her face off, every time he saw her. In fact, one could argue he had no appetite at all, even for human energy, since he seemed intent on not becoming human, and avoiding any kind of relationship with humans that would lead to him consuming their energy. Before Dam, and the marble turning half blue, and before falling for Dam, he wasn’t actually interested in consuming human energy; this was an actual plot point, although the show has yet to come back to it.

And then, after 9 and the revelation of this ~Sudden Appetite~, instead of continuing to treat that like the serious issue that it is, instead of actually having them separate until this issue, (which was imo added for no good reason), was resolved, they treat it like any other rom com obstacle, and have her come back to him, because she “loves him and would not be parted from him”. They treat it as if this sacrifice on her part is somehow romantic, as if it is just like every other...

version of sacrificing your life for love.
But I do not see this as the same as every other rom com noble idiocy obstacle- it’s not a Mother In Law that disapproves of the match, it’s not a physical health issue to be overcome together by basic human communication, it’s not even that either of them got cold feet, or scared due to past insecurities- it’s none of those things.
But it is treated as one. Id est, is overcome as if it doesn’t mean anything, when they actually do need to separate if that’s your plot.
And, it’s introduced via previously unknown information, that has only become canon NOW, at a convenient time for conflict to arise, making it forced, inorganic conflict, to pad run time and create drama for the sake of drama, and not because the story actually requires it.
She’s willingly entering into a heightened predatory relationship, that is only heightened because they like each other, due a plot point that didn’t have to exist in the first place, and I am uncomfortable with the drama seemingly condoning this, and that it felt the need to go there. Not only is it bad writing because it’s contrived; it’s also just deeply disturbing.

I think the factors of-> this only becoming an issue now that they’re dating, that it is heightened and made worse by skinship, that he wishes to have more intense skinship with her because of it, that she initially blames her own prudence as being the issue, and that they get back together in spite of all this-> are enough factors to make this worse than the initial premise.

2. Thus I believe my original comments about execution still stand: I believe there was a possibility for this show to have addressed and executed the original base concept and its issues *without* maximising those issues, making them worse, and then not treating them seriously enough.
And, even if we IGNORE if there is an underlying, fundamental issue or not, the fact still remains that the issues culminated upon themselves to become the worst version of themselves, multiplying until the show became increasingly less palatable. That is still true even IF we do or do not acknowledge any underlying issue.

Why was it palatable up until that point? Because before then it still had a chance to treat that original concept with intelligence and solve it without making it worse.

Why is it not palatable anymore? Because it didn’t treat the issue or the concept with intelligence and solve it well; it made it worse.

3. But what happens if we don’t ignore the premise.

What is it about the premise you want to discuss? Do you want to criticise it or defend it? Do you want to suggest it is disturbing from the beginning and discuss why, and then question why one would watch? Do you simply want to discuss it in general? I don’t know.

Therefore, I am going to combine your last statement

“Hence why I don’t think there is a way to discuss their relationship without discussing the premise of fantasy stories with a power imbalance.”

with mine from below,

“… whether or not stories between humans and non-humans (or, for that matter, large fantasy driven age gaps) are fundamentally flawed, beyond execution, for various reasons, and are therefore not romantic or swoony at all, and never can be.”

and pose a question for discussion thus:

Are stories with large fantasy driven age gaps, a fantasy driven power imbalance, and a romance between a human and a non human, fundamentally flawed, beyond execution, and therefore are not romantic or swoony at all, never can be and never should be portrayed as such?

I said I couldn’t be bothered going there, and the reason for that is because I think this question is nearly impossible to answer simply, succinctly, and without farther research and analysis into storytelling in folklore, mythology and religion, over a period of thousands and thousands of years, through multiple cultural lenses, not to mention philosophical, psychological, anthropological, and metaphysical lenses.

But let us attempt something of a response anyway, specifically in relation to your question ““Can you give an example where the age gap was done and you found it tolerable or enjoyable please?” , and maybe something very brief on gumihos in general.

Well first of all, tolerable and enjoyable are two very different things. And I do not think that the reason for me liking the following examples is necessarily directly related to the fantasy driven romances, but said romances all lie somewhere between tolerable and enjoyable so let us progress.

Second of all, in Kdrama or in general?
I have three examples for each.

In the kdrama corner, we have TALE OF THE NINE TAILED, MY LOVE FROM THE STARS, and A KOREAN ODYSSEY: HWAYUGI.
In the general corner, J. R. R. Tolkien has three main fantasy driven epic romances from THE SILMARILLION and THE LORD OF THE RINGS that fit this description:

Melian the Maia and Thingol, Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen:
Tale of the Nine Tailed-> Male Gumiho x Female Human Romance.
My Love From the Stars-> 400 year old male alien x Female Human Romance.
Hwayugi-> Monkey King (god of unknown power and ranking level) x Female Human Romance
Melian and Thingol-> Maia (sub deity/angel/lesser divine being) x Male Elf Romance
Beren and Lúthien-> Female Half Elf/ Half Maia x Male Human Romance.
Aragorn and Arwen->...

... Aragorn and Arwen-> Female Elf x Male Human Romance.

And in relation to the posed question:

Are stories with large fantasy driven age gaps, a fantasy driven power imbalance, and a romance between a human and a non human, fundamentally flawed, beyond execution, and therefore are not romantic or swoony at all, never can be and never should be portrayed as such?

9T- This is on rocky ground. I love this show, but it’s by no means perfect. On the one hand, does not have the typical, traditional energy sucking, flesh eating fox demon elements of the Gumiho myth between the OTP. On the other hand, it is does have basically casual passing pædophilia* in the flashbacks of him with his first love, because he first meets his first love as a child, thus establishing a romantic connection at an inappropriate age. Outside of that (which isn’t necessary for the story so it’s a shame it exists), I don’t think either of the three things listed in the question are inherently issues, unless you REALLY don’t like the fact that he saves her a lot.** Then again episode 9 also subverts that.

MLFTS- This has the same problems as 9T depending how you read the relationship between the ML and the Joseon incarnation of the FL. I don’t think I ever personally saw it as romantic. I can’t remember enough about the main present day relationship dynamic to comment on this to be honest. It’s been 6 years. Sorry not sorry. I had no problems with it when I watched it.

Hwayugi- I basically just like this cos the Monkey King is a snarky bitch, and I love him. Technically the power imbalance in this relationship is actually reversed somewhat, despite him being the god, because she has a magic bracelet that means she can tell him to do whatever she wants. On the other hand, her character is based on a monk, and practically written like one (not to be the last time the Hong’s do that to a love interest *coughs*), which brings up a whole lot of weird questions on its own when talking about romantic relationship dynamics. Hwayugi is a hot mess. I just like LSG as the Monkey King and Zombie Buja.

MelianxThingol- Elves are… really OP¹ in the Sil², and are debatably on the same power level as the maiar at times, so even though Melian is technically still more powerful than Thingol here, you could also argue they’re on equal footing. The age gap is inconsequential because Elves live forever unless they’re killed and are canonically called Children of [God]³, and Maiar are basically angels with the powers of demi gods. So like. Eh.
(¹Over Powered
²Shorthand for the Silmarillion
³Eru Ilúvatar, but it’s basically the same thing)

BerenxLúthien- Lúthien is… lmfao… perhaps the most powerful elf in all of Middle Earth to ever exist. Age gap- Men of the first age lived a lot longer, and elves that chose to be with humans become mortal and live and die like a human. Nothing really fancy about it, they can literally just choose a mortal life lol.
AragornxArwen is basically the same as Beren and Lúthien minor all your typical Sil drama and the journey to the underworld… (They’re intended to be literary parallels of each other).

(Note: You may have noticed that all the kdrama examples have the male as the Elder, and all the Tolkien ones have the female as the Elder. Whilst you could draw certain conclusions about power imbalances from this fact, I believe the data pool to be inadequate to actually draw anything conclusive, because once again, I think a discussion on this premise needs more research and analysis.)

From these (woefully inadequate) 6 examples at least, it would seem that, and I would argue that execution, worldbuilding, mythos and metaphysics does have a lot to do with whether or not a fantasy driven age gap, power imbalance or species difference is an issue in storytelling.

*The prevalence of Pædophilia in storytelling is its own issue, directly related to the question posed above, but I believe it deserves its own conversation and breakdown, again with more time spent on it. Thus I will not be going into it farther here.
** some people really don’t like concepts where the ML saves the FL all the time. I don’t mind them, again depending on execution. I think farther analysis of this concept and its palatableness to certain people, once more, requires more time and research.

And then we have the Myth of the Gumiho itself, in relation to this question.

- a myth that typically always involves a fantasy driven age gap, power imbalance AND humanxnon-human relationships. It’s also a myth that is, technically, traditionally inherently predatory, since Gumihos in Korean folklore are almost always evil demonic fox spirits that devour human flesh. They’re also almost always appear as women when they take on human form.
But not all folktales about the Gumiho are the same, and modern adaptions range from closely following predominant factors of the myth, to subverting them, to having few similarities at all. Almost all modern adaptions however, involve human x gumiho romances, despite the original myth typically being about demonic seduction more than anything else.

So once again, without farther research, this would imply, that execution of this myth is key.
A juicy horror story retelling of the myth will look wildly different from the most well written attempt at a romantic retelling of it.

However, this subject is difficult, because the myth can be deconstructed in multiple ways, and some of those deconstructions would require their own deconstructions, and I believe it would be very hard to discuss it without the worldviews of participants going head-to-head.

So we’re back to where we began: largely, whether or not any fantasy premise works or not, depends on execution, fundamental writing techniques, worldbuilding, mythos and, ultimately, metaphysics.
Perhaps I have avoided the conflict and kept my responses and conclusions vague, feel free to judge. Perhaps I have opened up a topic that will encourage farther discussion amongst other peers. I genuinely think there are at least 3 thesis worth of content from that one question though.

Two last notes-
I think that any concept, no matter its potential to be told well, can become perverted and corrupt, and that these corruptions will permeate examples for all of time.
And as a general rule of thumb, I do not think that romanticising the demonic, no matter what the myth or story, is a good thing.

4. There is an implication in your questions about why one started this at all, or why one kept watching, if the issues apparent in ep 9 and 10, were also there at the beginning.
I have already argued that we did not know where the show was going to take the premise before it aired; we did not know in what direction it would go. I have also already argued that I think the execution of the premise still matters, and that I think the issues got worse over time.
But just to reiterate, personally, from what I knew about the show before beginning it, said premise of predatory issues were not apparent, and I continued it from the first couple of weeks, after it became more apparent, because I wanted to see what they would do with the premise, where they were going to take the world they set up, knowing that I had the out of dropping it, if it became unpalatable for myself.

I also think the reasons different people watch things are their own, and those reasons can be as complex and as flawed as a show itself. We’re only human.
For example, I watched all of The Crowned Clown, and I disagree with that show in every fundamental way possible. I also watched all of Vincenzo, even though it was apparent from like episode 4 I had fundamental issues with it.
I do try not to watch shows that I dislike the premise of in the beginning, but sometimes I still start shows in spite of that, for OTHER reasons; the actor, to see where it will go, to fill in time, as a coping mechanism, as a distraction, because I’m bored, because I don’t have anything else to watch, because I need to unwind, because it might be mindless, because I want to try it out.
And sometimes I FINISH shows in spite of that; to shitpost it, to hate watch it, to write a 4000 word essay on it, for other people’s entertainment, because I’m a masochist, because I have nothing else to watch and I hate more things than I enjoy, because I used to be bad at dropping… etc.

Whether or not these reasons for watching are in anyway justifiable, is between me and the confessional booth.

Total word count: 2944

Upvoting for the mention of Tolkien in this essay. 😁

Sic, you could also add Idril Celebrindal (elf princess) and Tuor (man/princeling). Also Elrond (half elf/half elf) married Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn (elves). Again the female is the "higher" being.

Men and elves are kin though, with the elves being the elder children of Iluvatar. I'm not watching this drama, but the relationship between gumiho and human you describe sounds more like a Sauron/shapeshifter & Woman relationship. (Now I'm wondering if Sauron ever had a crush on anyone).

There is however the whole cultural dimension of the gumiho myth, which you highlighted, and which we must consider as well as comparing it to other myths like Tolkien's. Good luck with your comparative literature research project?

@wishfultoki I was gonna mention that Elves and Men (humans) are the first and second Children of Ilúvatar respectively and are therefore romantically compatible, but I thought that might add too much extra info or be too confusing for people who have not read the Sil, or do not understand Tolkien's worldbuilding and lore. I had already info dumped enough about that already. lol
It also still comes under "it works because of his internal metaphysics" which I covered anyway.
Any seducing on the side of Melkor and Sauron was almost certainly of the demonic kind lmao, and most likely lead to mass human sacrifice. *coughs* The Fall of Numenor *coughs*

Good luck with your comparative literature research project?

Lmao yes uhm thanks 😂

There’s two discussions happening here.

One is whether or not stories between humans and non-humans (or, for that matter, large fantasy driven age gaps) are fundamentally flawed, beyond execution, for various reasons, and are therefore not romantic or swoony at all, and never can be. This requires much deeper critical and philosophical analysis than I can be bothered going into right now.

The other is if you dislike the concept in the first place, why would you watch it.

If we ignore No. 1 for now, then I personally don't mind romances between humans and non-humans, and I also can tolerate a fantasy driven age gap, *depending* on its execution, and the writing behind it all. (For example, is it going out of its way to show them falling in love with one as a child, or is it doing anything else to make the gap seem worse?)

Which is the key thing for me here.

Episode 5+6 made me think this show was actually self-aware about said age gap and relationship dynamic in a way that was funny and entertaining, although it never did anything to address it seriously; episode 9 and 10 threw all of that self-awareness out the window and refused to acknowledge the questionable subtext the latest serious conflict was based off, in anything other than a throwaway joke, implied it would simply forget about it all next episode as if it had never happened, and added multiple other dimensions to the dynamic that just made it even more concerning and/or unethical. I don't care if he's not ACTUALLY her professor, masquerading as one is arguably just as bad, especially when it is not necessary for either conflict or development. I'm not even going to comment on the predator thing.

It was at this point it ceased to be just about the age gap or the species.

Yes, we knew about the age gap and the species going into the show, what we didn't know about was what they were going to add to that or do with that, or how they were going to treat that.
Turns out, how they were going treat that, was to take the concept in potentially the worst possible direction, adding fuel to the fire till the initial concept was no longer tolerable; the execution of the idea, and the underlying writing was just bad, if not downright disturbing.

Ergo, I for one, dropped it.

As for why other people are watching it, there are a myriad of potential reasons. They can answer for themselves. As a recovering shitposter and ex-hate watcher, I can assure you that some of us just get a kick out of analysing things we hate, even if it’s not necessarily healthy. Masochism is a hell of a drug 😉

@panshel @lynnb The answers to your questions is elaborated by @sicarius . Sicarius has articulated my thoughts exactly.

I enjoy fantasy/ fantasy-romance stories. In fact, my first Kdrama was "High school love On" that aired in 2014. There are flaws with that drama both offscreen (like the age gap between the leads) and onscreen (like the bad acting of the two male leads who are idols), but I love the drama, all the actors and still would recommend the show to other Kdrama newbies. For me, it opened the door to Kdrama world <3

Coming back to MRIAG, I was enjoying the drama prior to episode 9/10. What is not there to like about it? It has a strong female protagonist with principles, all the people surrounding her, be it her family or friends are adorable. It has the "comedy" element that is always lacking in dramas, labelled "rom-com". Everyone starts a drama, continues it, likes it, fangirls over it , till it reaches a tipping point, after which they start questioning certain things which were far easier to ignore at the start. I am continuing to watch it, as I'm not the one to drop shows midway after investing so many hours. I need a closure.

Thank you for responding, but I think I'm still a little confused. The SLs are not in the same place in life. She's had multiple adult relationships and experiences. To the point that she was acting as a mentor for the SML in his relationship. I'm thinking that their age difference is more palatable because her character is not written to be mature nor particularly smart (as you would expect from someone who is 700+). Which then begs the question, will the main character's relationship become more palatable if he were to suddenly become human? Would that put them on more equal footing?

In which case we come back to issue no. 1. above.

@lynnb, I agree the 2L's are not in the same place in life. However, there is more equity in their relationship. It is not just one sided. In the 2L's relationship it more like a normal older woman/younger man dynamic. Where obviously she has dated more and had more life experience, but he knows the world from a fully human point of view. So he knows and understands about the world more than she does. They come to the relationship able to teach one another things, grow, and be better together. In the ML situation, it is completely one-sided. He literally has all the power, so much so she still hasn't brought herself to call him by his name. She literally calls him Elder. He has made her a bit of a kept girl. The equity does not exist. There is no balance at all in their relationship. Also for me the age difference thing is negligible because again I can't and don't hold supernatural characters to the same conditions as humans. If he were a 30 year chaebol, I would still have issues with his character.

@kafiyah-bello I guess I struggle to see the 2Ls as any different or as a normal noona romance relationship. I recognize that she is new to human life, but as she is written as the one constantly giving the ML advice on how to deal with humans, and we've been shown that she has had many previous romantic relationships with humans I find that her relationship with this college age boy to be imbalanced as well. He doesnt even know what she was (that she became human by sucking the life out of other humans) or the fact that she had 700 years worth of life and relationships before him. (For example, had he known this would he not refer to her as an Elder the same way the FL does to the ML?). She has two of the most common things that would create a power imbalance in a relationship: Knowledge and wealth. In the show the balance I guess is supposed to come from the fact that she's not "smart", but other than her ignorance of idioms she is shown to be very wise. She's everyone's relationship guru. Maybe I'm just sensitive to this comparison of these two relationships. Where one is considered okay and the other harmful. Because my society ignores power imbalances and grooming when it comes to older female younger male relationships.

@lynnb, I understand. I just disagree. Most society's ignore power imbalances with older women and younger men. I just don't see that to be the case here. There is a drama that is doing that, that I am refusing to watch, but I personally don't see that here. We will have to agree to disagree here. 😊