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[Drama chat] Did they or didn’t they?

We all know dramas like to be coy about characters cozying up to each other (or, at least, they used to be!). But that leaves a lot of room for confusion, and sometimes it can even change the way we feel about the story depending on whether or not we believe our OTP went that extra stretch down the path of temptation.

The example of this that still keeps me awake at night is Just Between Lovers. When Kang-doo and Moon-soo go to that luxe hotel room and wake in their undershirts, are we supposed to believe they took their love to the next level? For me, it’s an important question — because the next thing you know, Kang-doo is leaving Moon-soo behind without a word. While he may be my all-time favorite drama hero (and he may have the excuse of believing he’s short on time), if he really did what I think he did after all that “responsibility” talk, he may also deserve a Halmeoni-style smack in the head.

In the early days of dramas especially, there were countless dramas whose coyness over this issue made me curious. And while the not knowing leaves a lot up to interpretation, the knowing might make me reassess my take on a plot point. What about you, Beanies?
 

Are there any “did they/didn’t they” moments that still niggle you? Would it change your opinion of the story if they did? (Or didn’t?)

 
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I hate when they do it, they let the viewer to interpret. It's so hypocritical... Assume, nom d'une pipe!

I remember in King 2 Hearts, I thought the couple didn't have sex but I think later she was pregnant, so I was wrong.

In Record of the Youth, they showed a hotel scene in one of the promo for the next episode, but they didn't show the scene in the drama. So, it was kinda weird.

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Oh one story that was really weird was in Under The Queen's Umbrella. The young Crown Princess said they did nothing, the CP doesn't remember anything so he believed her (especially since she said she didn't want to take advantage of his drunk condition) , but at the end they did and she was pregnant...

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I thought that one was odd, too. Both seemed convinced initially that they hadn't done anything, but they weren't *that* drunk so a complete blackout made no sense. We see the CP eventually remember some moments, but it was never clear to me if the Crown Princess had any memories of it at all, which is a shame, lol.

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She had memories. But I didn't understand why she lied like this...

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I guess if he didn’t immediately remember, it might of offended her, and thus she lied. Or in a modern sense if she remembered and he didn’t it, it would feel kinda non consensual

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OH MY GOD YES! I wasn't alone in thinking they just slept without hanky panky?! I was so thrown when it was revealed she was pregnant because they definitely didn't end in a place where it seemed like that would happen. She was comforting him as he cried.

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I'm happy that I'm not the only one. I watched this drama when it was airing and I didn't rewatch since (just some scenes). But her pregnancy kinda shocked me because the bed scene would have been enough with them just sleeping together without sex.

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YES to King 2 Hearts, I just watched that. Also, Princess Hours--they teased the viewer and suddenly she had morning sickness.

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🤣🤣🤣. @dramaddictally I felt the Did they or didn’t they? just once in My Liberation Notes and trust me, it left me confused and wondering if I missee something.
Who the hell follows a 3 secs kissing scene with hair blow drying. Talk of the craziest and very confusing Did They or Didn't They? I've encountered.

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I wanted to mention that. I try to imagine they did:)

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As a Makjang, Weekend and Daily aficionado, i simply always assume that they did.

Even if they brushed their pinky fingers for 2 seconds on screen, we all know that leads to a twin pregnancy.

So just always assume that they did.

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😂😂

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Pregnancy by pinky fingers brush!! I love it!!

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Sometimes it's confusing, like the My Liberation Notes example jerry talked about. But I always assume they did it. I think they make it clear if they didn't do it. There's always the flashback or conversation with a friend about how "shy" they are or how they want to take things slow.

I don't have a problem with it. I don't care if they did it or not unless someone's drunk and they make it look like it was the character's most beautiful night ever, even if they can't remember it. I think that's weird, why would someone be so happy about something they can't remember? "I don't even know what happened but I guess I wanted it and I got it. Yay!"

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As someone who says on a daily basis “he needs to be smacked” to Junho and his members, I needed to make a comment here.

But I guess I never asked myself that question because the answer is yes. I wish dramas, people, and the world should stop making sex something sacred and that can only take place if you found your true love and you will be together forever till the end of time. Let sex be something natural that happens when two consenting adults want, even if there is not the purest and most significant love. Let’s normalise sex is healthy and having fun is healthy, and wanting sex and not love is just fine.

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@Eazal. I’m not a fan of their music but what gets under your skin about their music?😊 Junho’s true calling is acting as he is so above the horde of idol actors.

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Junho is not an idol turned actor, he is a born actor. And an idol. When he's on the stage he shines, and when he is with his members on stage is probably the one time he relaxes and allows himself to be just a brat.

What gets under my skin about their music? Oh... if I could explain it... but their music just makes me happy in a level I had never felt about any other music. They have fun songs, dancing songs, touching songs that talk about life and the struggles we go through. I love the wonderful bond they share (although you will hear this from any other kpop fan about the members in the group they love). I can watch their performances non stop for days. They are my happy pill just like dramas are my happy place.

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We still don't know why you wish him and his members to be smacked 😄😄

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Oh, because they deserve it!! Last year we didn't have a single OT6 moment, and it was almost impossible to even have two members together. After 5 years waiting for a comeback, the following year they didn't gave us music or time together. So whenever any of those brats played hide & seek with us I just wanted to smack them!
They have announced concerts for late summer... when will they be? and when? We need to know! I live on the other side of the planet!!
So basically I change mood from protective fangirl to mad fangirl in a minute 😅😅😅😅😅

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Considering how diehard fans are usually portrayed, smacking an idol out of love isn't far-fetched. Kidding aside, Eazal's description about what their music makes her feel is really beautiful. I only know Junho the actor, but happy that he has this side to him as well.

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@eazal 😂🤣 you’re only allowed to squish them ok! I wish they’d announce the concert faster!

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I agree with "born actor. And an idol"

He's just mesmerising as a dancer on stage - so fluid and in one with his body.

There is a handful of Kdrama Actors who never drop the ball for the entire length of a show.

Just recently I finished watching an old classic :

Love Story in Harvard
(the perfect Valentine day watch if you haven't a date that day or a busy evening).

I don't think I have seen a better "romance actor" as him as in that show.

Which made me check out 3 of his other shows:

- Attic Cat (shines as the spoilt brat)
- Which Star Are you from (as a heart broken movie director dealing with loss of his beloved)
- Love (?) Pazzie (as a worker at a theme park)
- Doctors (as a doctor who had to resign amidst rumours from teaching)

Why am I interjecting this thread about Junho acting and "did they / did they not"?

Well Kim Rae Won brings a level of "heat" by introducing elements into the scene that I am pretty much sure is HIS input. Why do I suspect that? Because that stamp is there is ALL his shows.

He manages to make his FLs shine by coaxing the best out of them.

So yeah I wondered the same about Love Story at Harvard.
I thought they DID - at the sea beach after which she disappears. I also thought they must have few other times.
What confused me was the BIG deal (the way the scene was written) made about the "wedding night" - something one sees only when the leads "haven't"

Record of Youth was such a horrid 'tease' - I mean cummon!!!!! WHY DIDNT THEY?!

Same with CLOY - HOW COULD THEY NOT??
Two thirty plus adults locked in her Apartment?! NO?

It was amongst my early Kdrama days when I was little naive about the fact that Kdrama is coy around premarital sex. SO it killed me!!!
Did they do it in her apartment or not!!!

There wasn't even a suggestion of it.

So I was confused.

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I also wondered about CLOY when they were back in her apartment. And it was my first k-drama.

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@dncingemma To really appreciate Junho, you need to see him on stage in a solo concert (such as last summer’s Before Midnight). He writes all his own music and directs the staging as well. He is a dancing dynamo and a terrific performer. Truly amazing. On top of being a born actor!

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@Eazal: This. I wholeheartedly support your view. Global patriarchy has been consistently and massively harmful/dangerous to women’s lives through centuries of subjugation. With due respect to any beanies who are people of faith, male dominated religions continue to demonise sexuality and sex instead of trying to make the world a less awful place. And each of them continues to insist on controlling women’s bodies to rob them of their agency and bliss so to maintain ‘purity’, ‘modesty’ and other manufactured shackles.

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@dncingemma: Again, every word you said was nothing but the cold, hard facts. As someone who might kind of fit into the beanies of faith category (grew up and continue to identify as Muslim, but not particularly religious), I say organized religions have been the main instrument of the oppression of women and the condemnation of healthy and free sexuality. The people occupying high positions in these institutions are actively harming their own followers by implementing their ultra-conservative values about gender and sexuality just to put, as you do succinctly put it, “manufactured shackles” on their lives. It’s a method of control, pure and simple.

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Spot on! I wholeheartedly agree with everything said in this comment thread! I was brought up as Catholic (I know, I’ve been throughly colonised as am ethnically Indian. But at least I’m not Anglican, sorry not sorry Brits but I hate the British Empire and the stupid commonwealth and your fucking monarchy. Let it die already! But at least we won’t have the fucking Queen’s face in our money anymore. And NOBODY likes Charles so yeah have fun with him I guess. Also for any Aussies out there or anyone else who hates the monarchy this is an incredible link to a video of our First Nations Greens Senator Lidia Thorpe calling the Queen and the monarchy exactly what they are: https://youtu.be/HAJQ_K_CzCE)

Woops sorry for the rant but yes growing up Catholic was a lot. The sexual purity, any sexual urges being considered deviant if you are not married. Also marriage being forbidden for the LGBT+ community etc etc
Can you guess I no longer identify as Catholic? (that said I do still have complicated feelings about it)

For kdramas I guess 50/50. I like to see sexually active women enjoying sex like Bi-chwi from Strangers Again but I can also understand how western media depicts sex in such a male gaze way (think Game of Thrones) that it’s off putting. Hollywood also stopped doing romantic comedies targeted towards women (of course ANYONE can enjoy romantic comedies). Kdramas tend to be or was the place to find such media.

I think for kdramas the romance being the central focus is what a lot of people were/are looking for. For me personally kiss scenes or sex scenes don’t do anything for me unless I fall in love with the OTP first. A lot of American series show the sex first (which there is nothing wrong with) and we get to know our OTP over a gazillion or so seasons.

The only western series I know that currently has sex scenes that feature the female gaze is Bridgerton. I know the show has problems but omg did I want more sex scenes between Anthony & Kate! Literally had to look up smutty fan fic about them haha.

Lastly kdramas might be a great stories for ace people as well. I’m not torn per say I think a woman enjoying her sexuality is a great thing and we need to see more of it. But I don’t want the male gaze either, there were a lot of complaints on how Park Min-young was depicted in Love In Contract which I agree with. If we get more sex scenes from kdramas I want more female PDs. But so far most sex scenes I’ve seen in kdramas are pretty tame, again it could be personal preference or changing attitudes towards sex in general and seeing more sex in kdramas is fine by me. But I do think there is also a place for romantic comedies to not feature it as much for folks who don’t want it

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@linarrick: And, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said. The male gaze has been the dominant lens and it is good to see it challenged and dismantled as much as possible but it is an uphill battle and it is not easy to get there.
The KD sex scenes seem to be tame because of regulatory strictures aka the CENSORS and some cultural hegemonic forces but it is interesting that SK society in RL hardly mirrors the censors vision of the country. I’ve read interesting interviews, articles and even comments on DB by those who are in SK which present a much more flexible perspectives on straight dating. Regrettably, for the LGBTQI folk, it is a different story of the continuing struggle against the lack of recognition for their existence and achieving inalienable human rights.

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@linarrick: HUGE shouts of agreement in regards to everything you said about the British monarchy. Fuck the British Empire, fuck the Commonwealth, fuck the monarchy and especially fuck the figureheads representing it dressed up in their spoils of war stolen from our lands and peoples. The blood of colonized nations is still on those “royal” jewels they call theirs. It’s a source of great shame to me that so many fellow South Asians continue to idolize and venerate that monstrous institution. We have never been freed from the mental shackles of imperialism.

I absolutely agree with you on the male gaze and depiction of sex in Western media, but I do have a point to add. While there are many people, especially women, who find the dominance of the male gaze off-putting and exploitative, the crowd usually protesting against portrayals of sex are ultra-conservative religious movements. Their objections lie on the very depiction of what they deem as obscenity or the depravity of modernity. Therefore, as much as I would like industries to focus more on the female gaze (Barring their… occasional issues with consent, Bridgerton was a great example!), I don’t necessarily want them to stop representing sex and sexuality onscreen. Improvements must be made, but I think removing all of it would just make it seem like we’re letting those moralizing, religious-fascist types win and they cannot be the ones who win in this fight. The current state of Western cinema is already extremely sanitized and desexualized for the sake of easy money (just look at the endless barrage of superhero movies); more censorship would just make things dire.

Yes to more female PDs filming sex scenes!

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♥️♥️♥️
So nice to find a fellow South Asian who hates the monarchy too! My parents were sad that the Queen died and I was just baffled??? The British Monarchy literally represents the slavery and genocide of not only our peoples but the entire ‘commonwealth’ as well as many other countries. Also the Queen had a pedophile son who not only got no repercussions for his disgusting actions but somehow also still gets security??? I wonder if the British taxpayers are paying for this because damn I wouldn’t stand it!

Also as someone who was once Catholic, I didn’t give two shits when George Pell died. Good riddance! The Church has a lot to answer for as well *sigh*

I agree with you on not stopping the representation of sex. Fleabag is another wonderful series that showcased a woman enjoying sex and didn’t demonise it. She even had sex with a Catholic Priest! Oh lord I shipped them so hard ( probably had to do with my repressed fantasies of sleeping with young 30 something priests or nuns 😁)

So yeah Vatican let the priests be any gender and let them marry for Christ’s sake! Then Fleabag could’ve had a different ending 😭
Also in Fiery Priest Kim Hae-Il & Park Kyung-sun could’ve been canon instead of just flirting…

But sorry back to topic there are other western shows that feature positive sex such as Sex Education. It’s rated MA15+ in Australia, which means 15 years and over can watch it, I do think younger teens can watch this show as well, but it’s a much better rating than the R18+ given to Skins (for my generation) which was about teenagers but teenagers couldn’t watch it…I mean the logic???

The Sex Lives of College Girls is also one I enjoyed ( I do understand the criticism behind Mindy Kaling’s preference for mediocre white boys, it’s a little more complicated than that, but I understand the critique)

I’ve also watched the first episode of Insecure at my friends place and I really enjoyed it but sadly I’ll have to wait until I can afford another streaming service to see the rest it. (Or I can beg my friend for her password but she’ll likely won’t give it to me😅)

So yes there are shows that don’t just cater to the male gaze and I would definitely love to see something like this in kdramaland. Chances are we’ll probably see the sex scenes in streaming only shows since they don’t have to adhere to censorship regulations. Money Heist Korea had a very raunchy sex scene featuring Kim Ji-hoon if any beanies are interested 😉 (It’s in episode 6 😁)

So yeah to sum up I agree with you 100%! And don’t get me started on white superhero movies, I can rant about that for WEEKS! 😂

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@linarrick: The outpouring of grief from everyone, but especially South Asians, after the death of the Queen was so unserious. Like, what are you doing, this lady was literally the head of the British Empire?? And definitely not as the passive, apolitical figurehead she tried to pass herself off as (look up the 1952 Mau Mau Rebellion in Kenya). You still can’t charge members of the royal family with crimes, a concept so archaic and stupid that it should be illegal in the 21st century. So, not only did that woman and her nasty pedophile son never get held accountable for their many crimes, but they still live off of taxpayer money. These assholes are the definition of the word ‘parasite’.

Just looked up who George Pell was and… yikes. If hell is real, that man is burning in the pits.

Fleabag and the Hot Priest!!! They’re one of my favourite OTPs to this day, I love them so freaking much. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church would rather sanction the widespread abuse of children than allow the freedom of their clergymen. Well, I suppose it is more difficult to control people when they’re not repressed.

A show I watched recently that had excellent depictions of sex was Normal People. It felt raw, realistic and genuinely intimate in a way that didn’t feel exploitative or too male gaze-y. It also stars the wonderful Paul Mescal who’s an absolute fave of mine.

Thank you for the information on Money Heist: Korea, I will be putting that to good use - Kim Ji-hoon is so fine!

As for the topic of superhero movies… *sigh*. The funny thing is I don’t even dislike watching some of them when I turn my brain off - I just hate how they’ve come to dominate our media landscape. The genre is oversaturated and it’s killing indie/mid-budget cinema. (As you can see, I can rant about it for weeks too lmao).

This comment got a lot longer than I planned lol. I hope your friend shares her password. It’s so refreshing to find another South Asian person with more progressive and sex-positive values.

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I’m so glad someone is pointing out how depictions of sex and sexuality are so sanitized in dramaland (and I’d argue, across film and tv around the world). It’s always treated as this secretive and forbidden thing that you don’t engage in unless your partner is your soulmate and that’s always been frustrating to me. Sex should be fun! Whether you’re having it casually or with a longtime partner, its fine to have it and no one should be shamed for it. Every once in a while I see comments on this site bemoaning the increasing depiction of sex and healthy sexuality between drama couples and how it’s a “sign” of kdramas becoming “westernized” and it makes me want to rip my hair out. Thank you for being a rational voice on this platform.

Also yes, Junho and the boys should probably be smacked for their antics. The audacity of these men!

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@ladynightshade: I’ve reading missed your wonderful comments. You are spot on.

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A bit of my soul for an edit button. This device continues to embarrass me.

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@dncingemma: Oh, I get your struggle. An edit option would do wonders for many of us.

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Thanks for your support, specially on the smacking part 😂

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When people bemoan westernization, it sounds like the implication is that doing things that benefit the welfare of its people is anti-korean and that koreans themselves don't have any agency over social progress and pursuing happiness.

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To restore my faith in humanity, I always assume they did :) unless they wake up with overcoats 😅

May be dramas should add a subtle check mark at the bottom if the deed was done, so there is no confusion.

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LOL. Yes please with the check mark. If they are not gonna show anything, let us at least be confirmed.

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Waking up in overcoats doesn't actually make things more clear all that much, as demonstrated in Bride of century)))

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😂😂 It was SO COLD in BotC that although I have rewatched it many many times, the first thing I always remember about it is red noses and large overcoats😄

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Not too cold, apparently)))

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There are ways to generate heat 😄

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I think that Bride of the Century woke up in overcoats in bed the morning after their wedding.

The coat thing is RIDICULOUS!

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EXACTLY!

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The first thing that came to mind was 'Pinnoccio', the 2014 almost-sibling romance between Lee Jongsuk and Park Shin-hye (a favorite series of mine, BTW). In one scene the female lead makes a quip (in front of her father?) about how tall and gangly the male lead is, about having unnecessarily long appendages.

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Not siblings, fake uncle and niece. Also a favorite show of mine.
In the version I have watched the subtitles specifically say unnecessarily long legs. But who knows.

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Go watch the first episode of the recent series 'Hit The Spot', just to offer a contrast. It's likely to make you better appreciate K-dramas' usual chaste longing looks and discrete scene transitions.

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You chose an extrem with Hit The Spot. I'm pretty sure, we can find a way without falling in the extremes.

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Also HIT THE SPOT was dramatically a waste of time. What really is needed is something in between as you said. While it was not the best K-drama of all time LOVESTRUCK IN THE CITY at least made the sex part very clear- other Kdrama writers should have learned from it.

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A Hundred Million Stars in the Sky............Kidding!

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In Strong Woman Do Bong Soon, after the night of the piano kiss , the ML asks FL if she slept well with a suggestive smile. I do wonder if things went far , or it was just a normal comment.

And same page on you about the 'Just between lovers' scene, it pissed me off too .

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Given how nauseatingly lovey-dovey SWDBS couple behaved the next morning (and how shamelessly in-your-face drama handled events leading to that epic kiss scene), I'd say that this particular example is an easy guess)))

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Yeah, I assumed as much, but you know, they seem too pure for that XD.

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That's purely on PBY and her weird insistence on playing the role as innocently as possible, even allegedly refusing some kissing scenes that were in the script because "Bongsoon never dated before, she can't be this open to skinship!". Could've just be honest and admit she didn't want to kiss PHS more - which is hella weird of her, but to each their own, I guess... Story-wise it totally happened.

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Why put the blame on Park Bo Young and accuse her of avoiding to kiss PHS more? The wedding scene had so many unscripted kissing scenes and she didn't even oppose on the director's suggestion. It was actually PHS who suggested Ahn Min Hyuk should take it slow as he treat his bongbong precious and giving BS time to sort out her feelings.
While there is a bed scene in the script, we don't know what happened on that, if they filmed it but edited out, because even the piano kiss bts wasn't shown by jtbc.

Don't be too obvious in being PHS warrior here (as evidenced by how you engage in every phs article) by dissing his co actors and making speculations and rumors.
Check facts first.
I am a PHS fan too and he has been thankful to all his costars, especially PBY. He is a good person and humble one at that, I hope fans follow his suit.

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I thought that they clearly slept together in JBL. They went to that hotel with the express purpose of sleeping together, and there was no suggestion from what I could tell that they didn't. In general, too, my sense is that once we see any change of clothing from the night before that we're to understand the characters had sex.

But the signifier isn't always a change of clothes. Reaching for a more recent example, I also assumed Sang-soo and Su-young had sex when he visited her home town to find her, but in that case, we see him fully dressed after the kissing scene, but he's outside and smoking which I took as a hint that they did more than just kiss.

Nowadays, I feel like the most common indication that sex has occurred is a shower scene--i.e. if we see the characters washing up in the scene after they've either done something physical or seemed to be leading there, we're meant to believe they slept together.

The one time I was confused was MLN with Gu and Mi-jeong. Once they reunite, they spend the night together all the time, but because there's no heat in his apartment, we just see them fully clothed, coats and all, snuggling in front of a space heater. It seems odd to me that they would not have consummated their relationship at some point, but those scenes also seemed designed to give an explanation for why they didn't (because it was too cold to do so, I guess?).

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Omg, I never thought the kiss in the guest house between Sang Soo - Soo Young led to something but now that you say it, it seems plausible. The drama was very open & liberal about getting physical & given the attraction they felt for each other, it could be so.....

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I guess we are not alone in the MLN confusion.

I don't know if MLN was trying to be as chaste as possible in its visuals, but at least in writing give us an idea to know whether or not they got down together. For characters that had such level of closeness and the journey they took to get that comfortable in each other's skin, it felt out of place that they do not at one point consummate after the reunion. But then seeing that Mr. Gu left Sanpo (Ep 12) moments after the mountain kiss scene (Ep 11), I see why Mi-jeong might not be eager to consummate even though the temperature was right.

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When Gu and Mi-jeong reunite he is a very advanced alcoholic and a physical wreck. That is why I assumed that cuddling up is all they were able to do.

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Yes, good one! Most of the times it makes a huge difference to know. Subliminal messages are a whole thing, but what dramas do is only confusing. Sometimes the viewing guide helps, but I guess neworks want to avoid putting their average drama viewer in a tight spot. Which is nonsense as streaming services and kabel have proved otherwise.

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My favorite (an early one) when they went from hug to morning sickness.

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Talking about that particular moment in Just Between Lovers, I definitely believe that they did.

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I remember that last year I was reading in some blog (not here, for sure) a Flower Boy Next Door recap.
I had watched the series some months earlier and I tried to remember a moment when, according to the girl who wrote the recaps, it was quite obvious that the main couple "did".
Maybe she was right, but when I watched that episode it never crossed my mind and I still have my doubts.

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If I remember correctly (it's been YEARS!), in FBND webtoon OTP did it near the end of the story, so maybe recapper just assumed it happened in a drama too? Drama did not follow webtoon word-to-word at all, but in both cases OTP ended up living together for a while (permanently in webtoon, I think), so it's not that far-fetched to think she was right in her guess.

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Maybe you are right. I remember that the recapper said that when main couple in a drama is sharing a hotel room and you see them together in the sofa and in the next frame that room is empty, it has to be assumed that both are sleeping together in another room XD

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By korean logic couple in hotel room=sex (and when things doesn't go by that plan it usually shows clearly), so that makes sense.

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I’ve never been able to decide about JBL - on the one hand, he stopped resisting her request for intimacy and they clearly went there to sleep together. On the other, he was still wearing jeans when he got out of bed; only she was in underwear. His leaving without waking her seems odd if they’d made love, but then he realized he was probably dying and had things he needed to accomplish quickly, including for her. And more than anything else, he was so sick by then that I have doubts about whether he was physically able to do much more than cuddle.

Overthink things? Why yes, I do!

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I just ask you this because when I was looking through DB archives and I think I saw you once had a reference to this in your DB name. In Alchemy of Souls Part I, I had assumed that Mi-Doek had been made drunk and seduced by the crown prince, because Jang Uk says she "reeks of cinnamon." I though that because I've read that in some (European) medieval texts, cinnamon is talked about as an aphrodisiac, as a "warming" spice, and so to say that she reeked of cinnamon" meant that she had sex. But my wife disagrees. She thought the Crown Prince was too much of a gentleman to do such a thing. (But if he was a true gentleman, why did he get her drunk in the first place?) What is your opinion on this crucial matter?

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I’m certain he didn’t seduce her. He offered her a cup of his favorite cinnamon wine, and when he observed that she disliked it but was pretending to enjoy it to flatter him, he plied her with more and more, knowing she couldn’t politely refuse and enjoying her discomfort. He’s too much of a gentleman to seduce a maid but petty enough to inflict a bit of payback for her cheekiness. After she was drunk, he turned her back over to Ju-wol and Wook collected her from Chwiseonru.

I could never figure out if cinnamon had any significance in AoS other than something Naksu/Mu-deok notably disliked, and I was disappointed we didn’t get a scene of her reacting to it in Part 2.

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Thank you for your expert answer. I'm not going to tell my wife, though. Instead I'll just say the matter is still "open to dispute."

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Wait, zoom-in on couple mugs the morning after is not a thing anymore?

I'm a simple person - I hate coyness over matters of intimacy (and the whole "sex is evil" propaganda - nothing good EVER came from it as history clearly shows us), so if my OTP did it, I NEED to know! And have a good peek if possible))) But kdramas are what they are, so I often have to use my deduction skills not just for whodunit crime mysteries, much to my chagrin. Rise of cabel and OTT shows with their lesser restrictions kind of improved the overall situation, thankfully... But it's still not enough!

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What about Kang Pil Joo (Jang Hyuk) and Mal Ran (Kim Mi Sook) in "Money Flower?"

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that's a good one. I prayed he didn't do it cause that's just kind of incestuous.

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Not incestuous, but creepy! I also think he did not do it.

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Yes, obviously. Such a betrayal is one of the reasons she ended up where she did. It is an important part of the story. Jealousy added to her hate of Mo-hyun (Park Se-Young).

SF, you found a good example where a smart writer and director don't want to be explicit. As said here, being explicit sometimes just amplifies emotions in the audience that distract from the story.

Oddly, the opposite is true for the relationship between Pil-Joo and Mo-Hyun. Muting it made it seem stronger. In counter-point to the votes on this thread for more skin (or equivalent), Kim Hee-won even de-focused their faces in one scene, as she sharply focused on their eyes while the two stared at each other. She wanted us to feel their unsaid bonding. Even a kiss would have been too shallow for this kind of scene.

Most kdrama fans finally appreciate Kim Hee-won as a smart and skilled director, but in Money Flower she worked from a first-class script.

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Money Flower is indeed a masterpiece. It managed to make makjang subtle.

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Well my prev self had to pause and watch the bed scene in Strangers Again. Apparently they didn’t have sex but Ha-ra asked in the morning and the dude REJECTED?! I mean of course people shouldn’t have sex is they don’t wanna but imagine saying no to Kang So-ra??!
Whaaaaat?!! If only I was in that position…

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To Mica (who didn't have time to register for easier answering but apparently has enough of it to count how many comments I post under each article):

First of all, nobody ever called me PHS's warrior before, so thanks *blushes* (even tho you probably didn't mean it in a flattering way at all). Second, I never dissed PBY, only said that her approach to her character was weird to me, because that explanation about toned down skinship (which was actually said by her in some interview - sorry, don't have link on hand cause it's been YEARS, but I believe it was already mentioned here on DB somewhere in that drama's comments, so you can go and check facts personally instead of blindly believing my words) makes very little sense. Had PHS said something along those lines, I'd side-eye him too, because - surprise! - my issue is with the logic of that statement, not the person who did it. Whether she really believed in that explanation or was it indeed just an excuse we'll probably never know, so my non-serious (how could I forget that one MUST ALWAYS specify the fact when making a joke on internet? silly me! next time I'll make sure to add some emoticons, don't worry) comment about aversion of kissing her co-star is just as good of a guess as any other. Lastly, idk what who is the fan of whom or PHS's nice personality (can't really comment on that since we're not THAT close with him, to my deepest regret. how are YOU so sure tho?) has ANYTHING to do with the main topic, which was - in case someone already forgot during our lengthy convo - people doubting the passion SWDBS's OTP had for each other because it didn't translate very well to screen in certain scenes. And, ofc, if anyone actually treats my words as ill-meaning rumors (tho if I was as worried about this matter as you I'd probably focus more on people STILL aggressively shipping Park-Park couple irl, claiming they are dating/married/divorced/fighting in the court over their pet cactus and ACTUALLY attacking his other female co-stars from EVERY his drama since 2017), you're free to direct them to me so I can take responsibility and personally clear any possible misunderstanding I could've unintentionally create. Can't promise to be less obviously a fan of PHS's work though, that's a way too personal thing for random anons online to interfere with, but thanks again for your OBVIOUSLY deep concern^^

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Who is doubting the passion of the couple? I mean the only good thing in this drama was the couple. They had great chemistry on screen and behind the camera.

If PBY did a choice for her role, why not. Honestly, I don't see as an issue, they had a lot of cute scenes enough.

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That just says a lot about how not so good overall that drama was))) Personally I was never 100% convinced if FL loved ML back as madly as he loved her (not sure who or what's to blame here) or simply choose man willing to make her happy over the one that didn't know what to do with her at all (nothing wrong with it practically, I just don't find it swoony). Drama even kinda acknowledged that in some of her lines. But that's my subjective opinion and I get why it will never be a popular one - they indeed looked very cute together (cute is the key word here) and ML's feelings were more than enough for both. For themselves and maaany other people, just not for me and few other rogues)))

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But it was a very popular one. It made a lot of buzz even if the script was really bad.

The couple was really loved.

You're the first person I heard who found the couple was lacking.

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I'm afraid I have the similar problem with many other hit dramas and their universally loved OTPs. Most romance kdramas are written by women who understand wishes of their target audience well and thus go to truly GREAT lengths to showcase ML's boundless devotion to FL... and often forgetting to make FL equally devoted to him. I get why it's like that and I'm usually not complaining over such things in entertainment cinema - that's literally what it exists for! - but I'm just not the part of the target audience mentioned above, sadly. One-way-street love doesn't warm my jaded heart, no matter how beautifully it's presented.

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@gikata
The love story depends on which member of the couple needs to be healed or to evolve.

In this drama, it was the FL who needed to handle her power. The love story was only a part of her journey.

But sometimes, it's the ML who needs help and the FL who is focused on him.

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You've summed up all the reasons I dislike about such romances - they're plot-devicey in their one sided-ness and I want my love stories to be about feelings and partnership, not just "X (and slew of other letters) focuses on Y to heal Y's wounds and stroke their ego". As you said yourself, romance WAS the selling point of that show, so FL's personal journey or not, that part was way too big for me to lower my fictional love standards, no matter how unnecessarily high they may look. Let's just agree to disagree here - I knew since the start of this discussion that I'll end up in minority with crowds of confused people around)))

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@gikata

It depends on how it's written. In this case, I think it was pretty well written. He was weaker than her but he's the one who could help her. They bonded like this. They were partner.

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I've seen such things written and done much better. Even in k-romances I always struggle with. But again, that's just me who's known for many things... EXCEPT of being moderately critical)))

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Check your comment blaming it on PBY and now you are gaslighting me that I need to discern if it just a joke or not. And accusing her of “why not just admit she doesn’t want to kiss PHS more” will be likely taken as joke. IT IS A BAD JOKE. This is not about shipping per se but on how you ACCUSE her when she even agreed on UNSCRIPTED KISSES suggested by the director. And we know a lot of readers who are GULLIBLE and believe everything they read on the internet.

I don’t care about shipping or shippers, I care about how you make speculations without proofs that she even said it, and now taken back as just a JOKE.
So please, make a good CHOICE of words you use if you don’t want anything misunderstood.
If you don’t like her, it’s okay. But don’t speculate things that has no basis.

And readers here can choose to register or not, and I think we are allowed to, right?

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Facts:
She did comment that she wanted to portray it as innocently as possible BUT it was also PHS idea to delay their kiss because she wanted to give her time. Why only blame her? Why not blame PHS too who wanted to portray their love story as CUTE? The SIDE COMMENT you made “why just admit she doesn’t want to kiss PHS more” is offputting and a BAD JOKE if you take this as a joke. And obviously show your bias.

Also, this situation is a main example why there are shippers and rumors. Because of comments like these, gullible people easily believe what they read.

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In Hyena, I was fully convinced the two leads had a full on steamy romance including a lot of "it" before the best plot twist in a 1st episode happened, until about 10 episodes in when male lead is very surprised by the horrible scar on female lead's shoulder.
Disappointed does not even start to describe what I felt.

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Moonsoo and Kangdoo DID it for sure otherwise what was the point of getting that expensive room? These SK’n censors have a lot to answer for.

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What about Beautiful World, Wonderful Love??
That hotel scene where they spend the night in bed together??

WHY DIDNT they? Or did they?

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I think the coy answer lies in SK broadcasting standards of what is the gray area of explicit content. It is very inconsistent.

For example, the OTP in Something in the Rain did it A LOT like on-screen teenage rabbits. But then, the bed scene in Thirty Nine with SYJ and YWJ was cut and only showed her leaving in the morning after with regret. Then this couple never showed any real skinship afterward which was very strange.

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Something in The Rain was great to portray intimacy in a couple.

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Jung Hae In's 2nd drama where they jut jump under the covers and there is lots of movement--NOT romantic.

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Yes, as a plot point, it should be made clear as it really does affect the plot line. Yes, yes, yes!

So much time is spent on the development of a relationship. After the big focus on "the first kiss," and clarifying the status of the relationship, etc. it is unforgiveable that the viewers are suddenly treated like idiots. Make it clear that the characters have slept together! Then to add insult to injury (of viewers), a "surprise pregnancy" --worse that a time skip--is presented (here's looking at you, shame on you Princess Hours, King 2 Hearts, etc....) and that is quite jarring. By the way, several of Park Min-Young's dramas come to mind where tastefully done bedroom scenes that make it clear the main couple has slept together: WWWSK, Her Private Life, Forecasting Love & Weather, Contract Marriage. Even historical dramas should make it clear; it doesn't have to be with explicit sex scenes like "Frozen Flower."

NIGGLE: "Just Between Lovers," as much as I love that drama, makes me roll my eyes--that scene with the heavy parkas in a hotel bed, Junho's character is so sick & will die soon but possibly he made love to the FL?????--was he even physically able????? Then he just leaves her, not even leaving her a note!!!! And he had even kissed her in her bed in her home so intimacy would be normal. GRRRRrrrrrr.....

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OH that bed scene in her room should have been!!!

Looks like JBL has given gastritis to many of us!!

ROFL

Is there any show in which Junho DOES it? LOL ..
I'd love to see a sweaty Junho

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Definitely the innocent man. It left you hanging and making own theory about the ending lol. And Que Sera Sera.

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It's not about the ending but about the fact they had sex or not. I don't remember in Nice Man but they surely did in Que Sera Sera.

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Thanks....

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yep - another Show that I wanted to ask:
WHY DIDNT THEY?

It would enrich the plot I feel. Give some punch and satisfaction for the viewers and better explain the FL's 'hurt and rejected feelings' and / or in the second half better which would have given a better punch to the end - she is 'bonded' paired with him and this will now go any length to be with him

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I am rewatching "I'm Sorry I Love You" and thought about this question during the motel scene in Episode 13. She is washing his clothes while he is wrapped in a blanket. The camera lingers on his wet clothes drying on an indoor clothesline. So did they or didn't they? Knowing the context and the characters, I'd say no, but knowing how the story ends, I wish they did it.

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I find it odd that so many drunken Korean actors are able to get their partners pregnant (in dramas of course - no idea how it relates to real life in Korea). One's personal experience is that drunk partners, although enthusiastic, tend not to be able to perform. But perhaps I have just been unfortunate.

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ROFL ing with tears

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And what about the EVEN MORE frustrating: WHY DIDNT THEY?!

I mean for eg. Record of Youth!!
Such a horrid 'tease' - I mean cummon!!!!! Why didn't they when they were cooped up in shirts.

Same with CLOY - HOW COULD THEY NOT??
Two thirty plus adults locked in her Apartment?! NO?

CLOY was amongst my early Kdrama days when I was still naive about the fact that Kdrama is coy around premarital sex. SO it killed me!!!
Did they do it in her apartment or not!!!

There wasn't even a suggestion of it.

So I was confused.

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yep - another Show that I wanted to ask:
WHY DIDNT THEY?

It would enrich the plot I feel. Give some punch and satisfaction for the viewers and better explain the FL's 'hurt and rejected feelings' and / or in the second half better which would have given a better punch to the end - she is 'bonded' paired with him and this will now go any length to be with him

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Am talking about Innocent Man 👆🏽👆🏽

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The Smile has Left your Eyes

There was plenty of skinship and YES it happened. No bones made about it and beautifully shown.
It was natural.

My Name made no bones about it either. IMPACT of final scene wouldn't have HAPPENED if that was not made a plot point!!

One of the STRONGEST use of "doing it" ever used for a Drama - other than when it's used to "make a baby"

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And I need to add one more drama to this :
- did they?
- why didn't they?

BEYOND THE CLOUDS.

cummon PD nim could you give us some more injury salve to rub and make us go guh!

THIS show could have SO SO SO used some skinship as viewer catharsis - AT LEAST that last night at the snow cabin??

Some Secret Love or Smile has Left your Eyes kind of balm

might have taken the ratings to a 6% I think ;-p

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i've always wondered if they did in queen in hyun's man... the tip toe kiss and then the waking up in bed where yin's character looked like she was naked.. i could be wrong, but i always got the feeling they did because in the deleted scene of them at the end of the series, they were going at it like it wasn't their first time together. but maybe that's just me assuming and being wrong..

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