Here’s a (potentially nerdy) question for all the c-drama viewers here on DB. I look forward to an interesting discussion (do please also tag people you think might have views on this):
The usual fare that we see in Chinese dramas (which I classify as harlequins on TV) is catering to a certain audience, and I respect that that audience is sufficiently large to bring the moolah in and to warrant rehashing the formula over and over again.
But the industry not just about nubile women or pretty faces. There’s a phenomenal bundle of talent in the industry (e.g., Sandra Ma, who I thought was a powerhouse in Mr. Fighting). Plus, they are flush with funds (some of the stuff I have watched equals or outdoes average kdramas in production). In these circumstances, why is nobody in the mainland Chinese TV industry making high-quality television which exploits acting talent, production values and good storytelling? (Do tell me if I am getting this completely wrong, and that there is stuff out there which is going under my radar.)
I have not watched much wuxia (because of a personal mindblock against costume dramas), so my assessment is based only on so-called ‘modern’ dramas that I have watched in bits and pieces over the past few months. I also do not include either Taiwanese or HK dramas in this assessment, which have strengths and problems of their own, from the little I have seen.
(As an aside, I’m keen to know if anyone has recommendations for HK dramas – I am especially curious to understand how cultural identities are trying to be defined in current times – HK has done noir really well in cinema (Infernal Affairs has not aged at all), I’m sure that has translated into TV as well?)
I’m the opposite, because I mainly watch period Cdramas. I haven’t seen enough modern Cdramas to answer your question, and I happened to watch one that had acting talent, magnificent storytelling and superb production: NIRVANA IN FIRE. Not all wuxia are high-quality though. I’ve dropped quite a few as well.
The only modern dramas I’ve watched were: WHEN A SNAIL FALLS IN LOVE and ARSENAL MILITARY ACADEMY. I thought both were very good.
It seems like there are tons of Cdramas being produced (even more so than kdramas), so perhaps that gives the impression that in general they are lower quality?
“It seems like there are tons of Cdramas being produced (even more so than kdramas), so perhaps that gives the impression that in general they are lower quality?”
This could be the reason. I haven’t tried either WHEN A SNAIL FALLS IN LOVE or ARSENAL MILITARY ACADEMY, which I shall keep in mind. The basis for my comment was the scores of campus/school romances that are all I see in the cdramasphere.
I’ve been told by Chinese friends that the period dramas are excellent, so I need to watch that to change my views. I started watching JOY OF LIFE, and thought it was funny, but I didn’t stick with it after 2 eps for some reason.
Isn’t part of the issue, at least as it relates to storytelling, the severe censorship? It’s so hard to get around these issues with novel storytelling, so it would be easier to rehash the same stories. I haven’t really been able to get into wuxia either, but I have noticed the same issues you point out with contemporary mainland dramas, which is why I rarely watch them. I also think that the reason the most compelling (to me) contemporary mainland dramas are the youth dramas which have more freedom to play with universal themes that won’t trip up censorship. I think there are a few excellent dramas that do break the mold – but they are rare or harder to get made because they are going to face more obstacles in regard to getting made if they not in line with the tried and true formula; hence they may come off as more low-rent than the big budget productions that are more formulaic.
These are just my thoughts, and I haven’t had the time to look into it more, though I’d like to. I am fascinated by the restraints censorship place on the C-drama industry, because it really takes effort to be able to make great stories while working under such restrictions.
Censorship is one possible reason. But even if we grant them that, and even if all that the industry can make is teen romances (or universal theme dramas, etc), why not make a really good one? I have watched most of the ones folks have raved about recently – LE COUP DE FOUDRE, PYHOMS, LOVE 020, SKATE INTO LOVE – and while they all have their enjoyable moments, I found nothing outstanding about the shows themselves.
I’m curious to know which shows break the mould, according to you? I’ve heard good things about ADDICTED (and the trouble it ran into – but did it get popular because it ran into trouble, or was it genuinely a good show?).
Censorship was what prompted me to ask about how HK TV was doing – I really have watched nothing from there – and in the circs., it’s especially interesting to me. Taiwanese drama seems to be more easily available, and definitely pushes the envelope more. There, it seems to be a problem of too much talent, not enough money.
I think what I was trying to get at was that the isn’t a huge market for making a really great youth drama yet because I think C-dramas are still dipping their toes into that pool. I enjoyed PYHOMS, Go Go Squid, Accidentally in Love, A Love So Beautiful – but I think those are very new to the C-drama market. Until they can become more of the norm I would assume from an economic perspective that production companies would be hesitant to invest a lot in these unless they could ensure both the audience and the ability to air. I mean, the censorship is at all levels from what I understand – it’s not just story, but also post-production, editing, changing storylines or eliminating them after they’ve filmed. With that in mind you need to have tried and true stories to stay in business; filming isn’t cheap, and if you have to scrap a whole portion of what you filmed, it can be expensive.
I think what it boils down to is that censorship denies C-drama makers the luxury of experimentation. They’re not going to secure a massive budget unless they have a surefire hit on their hands and that likely means catering to the whims of the people and the censors i.e. boring and repetitive.
I have enjoyed very few Cdramas if I’m perfectly honest – I loved Le Coup de Foudre, because I felt it was an unusual love story not in that it was a new story, but more in that it was innovative in how it was told. Early on we knew a lot of the shape of the story (the fact that they are married, they were in school together, they were separated at some point, etc.) but in filling in that outline we got a more rounded world of characters and storylines. I also liked that it didn’t feel like I was watching Chinese propaganda half the time (*coughGoGoSquid*). I really liked Dr. Qin Medical Examiner, which was a fun Sherlockian detective show, though I hear the second season (which recast the leads) was not good. I don’t know if they were as mold-breaking as some K-dramas or TW-dramas, but again, I largely chalk that up to censorship and an inability to express certain ideas in storytelling.
Point well made, and something I had not thought through. I feel that the industry is losing out on so much talent potential as a result.
Most of the cdramas I have watched (excerpts of, because I drop them fairly quickly) feel like they bring together all of the worst of trope-filled Bollywood extravaganzas and then some. :/
I was speaking with a friend of mine some time ago about the Chinese entertainment industry, and from what I gathered it doesn’t seem that China sees drama or even acting as a high art form. My friend is an actress/model/musician and was born in China but works in the US and according to her unless you are at the top acting isn’t considered a respectable job, even less so than in other places. It’s not something that is encouraged – at least that was the impression she gave me. With that in mind, it would seem that if the value of those who make dramas is low, then that, coupled with censorship, would cause the industry to stagnate in the areas where there isn’t a tried and true audience.
This is why I think the C-dramas that are hailed as the best are usually historical (e.g. Nirvana in Fire, Story of Yanxi Palace, etc.) and therefore play to the nationalism and censorship placed on them by the government. It seems that web dramas can push the envelope a bit but those will never have budget and can easily be cut off from local audiences if the government feels like it. I’m not sure how this effects movies – but it’s clear that dramas are heavily effected by censorship and government intervention.
Honestly, the knowledge of the levels of governmental control on media are a large part of why I can’t really love C-drama. It always feels like there’s something missing and it’s clear that this has to do with the interference from outside forces.
This is very insightful about how actors are perceived in Chinese society. And you are right – combined with censorship, this is not going to offer up a rich portfolio of dramas, for sure. It’s going to take me a while to warm up to c-dramas, at this rate! Sigh. Not for the lack of trying, though.
Thank you for some very interesting and valuable comments on this! Always grateful. 🙂
It’s only recently that I’ve started watching more cdramas and the majority I’ve seen are high school/college coming of age romances. These shows are a cute, fluffy watch and I appreciate the production team casting virtually unknown actors in these roles.
Two modern dramas which I enjoyed a lot were Find Yourself and Le Coup de Foudre.
“the majority I’ve seen are high school/college coming of age romances. These shows are a cute, fluffy watch and I appreciate the production team casting virtually unknown actors in these roles.”
Exactly my observation too! That’s what prompted my original comment! They’re a cute and fluffy watch, and there’s an audience for it (including myself occasionally), and it’s great that pretty young things are getting an opportunity, etc. etc. But there’s also probably many many veteran actors who can do justice to a solid script? Where are those actors, and where are those scripts? Are they not being made at all? Or are they being made and we don’t get to see them because our feeds are overrun by the cute fluffy stuff? I feel like I am missing a major piece of the c-drama puzzle.
There are tons and tons of cdramas and you get a lot of awful ones but then you find some gems among them. I love finding those gems.
Cdramas also pump out tons of web dramas which are usually lower budget dramas.
But a lot of the ratings and views tend to come from their period/costume dramas so a lot of the big productions and money goes towards those types of dramas. Dramas such as Nirvana in Fire, Story of Ming Lan or Story of Yanxi Palace you can tell put a lot of money into the productions. They are very high end.
Some modern cdramas I really liked that had great actors in them is:
Love me if you Dare (this one has Sandra Ma who I love)
Go Go Squid
Kings Avatar
Reset Life
Put Your Head on My Shoulder
Find Yourself
Skate into Love
When a Snail Falls in Love
My Love, Enlighten Me (I’m watching this now and so far I’m enjoying it)
I haven’t seen any web dramas – how do they compare against the Korean web dramas? Plus, the period dramas I have heard lots about, but not managed to dip my fingers in. I should try 🙂
I tried LOVE ME IF YOU DARE for Sandra Ma (:D) but dropped it early, don’t remember why. I’ve also watched some of the others, and yes, even enjoyed them – e.g., SKATE INTO LOVE. But I was wondering if there were shows that were different from this standard (mostly trope-y) teen/campus romances that were coming out of China. As a comparator, I was thinking of, say, BLACK DOG (not a super brilliant show, but it uses the same school set-up to talk about different things), or even SCHOOL 2013 (which was uh-mazing).
Some of the web ones I personally like more than TV aired ones. One of the most popular cdrama The Untamed is a web drama. I actually am surprised to find out which are web dramas at times.
Oh ya they have other dramas outside of your school romance type ones. I don’t watch those too often so can’t really recommended but there was one that just aired called Hunting that was quite popular in China and one airing now called Autumn Cicada that’s like a 1920s espionage drama that seems to also be popular.
Ooh I didn’t know that about THE UNTAMED. Interesting.
I feel like the college/youth cdramas that seem to be all over the place are more like extended versions of the Korean web dramas that are floating around.
I’ve been seeing clips for AUTUMN CICADA, but not gotten around to watching it.
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pickleddragon
May 24, 2020 at 9:39 AM
Here’s a (potentially nerdy) question for all the c-drama viewers here on DB. I look forward to an interesting discussion (do please also tag people you think might have views on this):
The usual fare that we see in Chinese dramas (which I classify as harlequins on TV) is catering to a certain audience, and I respect that that audience is sufficiently large to bring the moolah in and to warrant rehashing the formula over and over again.
But the industry not just about nubile women or pretty faces. There’s a phenomenal bundle of talent in the industry (e.g., Sandra Ma, who I thought was a powerhouse in Mr. Fighting). Plus, they are flush with funds (some of the stuff I have watched equals or outdoes average kdramas in production). In these circumstances, why is nobody in the mainland Chinese TV industry making high-quality television which exploits acting talent, production values and good storytelling? (Do tell me if I am getting this completely wrong, and that there is stuff out there which is going under my radar.)
I have not watched much wuxia (because of a personal mindblock against costume dramas), so my assessment is based only on so-called ‘modern’ dramas that I have watched in bits and pieces over the past few months. I also do not include either Taiwanese or HK dramas in this assessment, which have strengths and problems of their own, from the little I have seen.
(As an aside, I’m keen to know if anyone has recommendations for HK dramas – I am especially curious to understand how cultural identities are trying to be defined in current times – HK has done noir really well in cinema (Infernal Affairs has not aged at all), I’m sure that has translated into TV as well?)
WishfulToki
May 24, 2020 at 1:12 PM
I’m the opposite, because I mainly watch period Cdramas. I haven’t seen enough modern Cdramas to answer your question, and I happened to watch one that had acting talent, magnificent storytelling and superb production: NIRVANA IN FIRE. Not all wuxia are high-quality though. I’ve dropped quite a few as well.
The only modern dramas I’ve watched were: WHEN A SNAIL FALLS IN LOVE and ARSENAL MILITARY ACADEMY. I thought both were very good.
It seems like there are tons of Cdramas being produced (even more so than kdramas), so perhaps that gives the impression that in general they are lower quality?
pickleddragon
May 24, 2020 at 9:23 PM
“It seems like there are tons of Cdramas being produced (even more so than kdramas), so perhaps that gives the impression that in general they are lower quality?”
This could be the reason. I haven’t tried either WHEN A SNAIL FALLS IN LOVE or ARSENAL MILITARY ACADEMY, which I shall keep in mind. The basis for my comment was the scores of campus/school romances that are all I see in the cdramasphere.
I’ve been told by Chinese friends that the period dramas are excellent, so I need to watch that to change my views. I started watching JOY OF LIFE, and thought it was funny, but I didn’t stick with it after 2 eps for some reason.
SnarkyJellyfish
May 24, 2020 at 2:54 PM
Isn’t part of the issue, at least as it relates to storytelling, the severe censorship? It’s so hard to get around these issues with novel storytelling, so it would be easier to rehash the same stories. I haven’t really been able to get into wuxia either, but I have noticed the same issues you point out with contemporary mainland dramas, which is why I rarely watch them. I also think that the reason the most compelling (to me) contemporary mainland dramas are the youth dramas which have more freedom to play with universal themes that won’t trip up censorship. I think there are a few excellent dramas that do break the mold – but they are rare or harder to get made because they are going to face more obstacles in regard to getting made if they not in line with the tried and true formula; hence they may come off as more low-rent than the big budget productions that are more formulaic.
These are just my thoughts, and I haven’t had the time to look into it more, though I’d like to. I am fascinated by the restraints censorship place on the C-drama industry, because it really takes effort to be able to make great stories while working under such restrictions.
pickleddragon
May 24, 2020 at 9:31 PM
Censorship is one possible reason. But even if we grant them that, and even if all that the industry can make is teen romances (or universal theme dramas, etc), why not make a really good one? I have watched most of the ones folks have raved about recently – LE COUP DE FOUDRE, PYHOMS, LOVE 020, SKATE INTO LOVE – and while they all have their enjoyable moments, I found nothing outstanding about the shows themselves.
I’m curious to know which shows break the mould, according to you? I’ve heard good things about ADDICTED (and the trouble it ran into – but did it get popular because it ran into trouble, or was it genuinely a good show?).
Censorship was what prompted me to ask about how HK TV was doing – I really have watched nothing from there – and in the circs., it’s especially interesting to me. Taiwanese drama seems to be more easily available, and definitely pushes the envelope more. There, it seems to be a problem of too much talent, not enough money.
SnarkyJellyfish
May 24, 2020 at 10:36 PM
I think what I was trying to get at was that the isn’t a huge market for making a really great youth drama yet because I think C-dramas are still dipping their toes into that pool. I enjoyed PYHOMS, Go Go Squid, Accidentally in Love, A Love So Beautiful – but I think those are very new to the C-drama market. Until they can become more of the norm I would assume from an economic perspective that production companies would be hesitant to invest a lot in these unless they could ensure both the audience and the ability to air. I mean, the censorship is at all levels from what I understand – it’s not just story, but also post-production, editing, changing storylines or eliminating them after they’ve filmed. With that in mind you need to have tried and true stories to stay in business; filming isn’t cheap, and if you have to scrap a whole portion of what you filmed, it can be expensive.
I think what it boils down to is that censorship denies C-drama makers the luxury of experimentation. They’re not going to secure a massive budget unless they have a surefire hit on their hands and that likely means catering to the whims of the people and the censors i.e. boring and repetitive.
I have enjoyed very few Cdramas if I’m perfectly honest – I loved Le Coup de Foudre, because I felt it was an unusual love story not in that it was a new story, but more in that it was innovative in how it was told. Early on we knew a lot of the shape of the story (the fact that they are married, they were in school together, they were separated at some point, etc.) but in filling in that outline we got a more rounded world of characters and storylines. I also liked that it didn’t feel like I was watching Chinese propaganda half the time (*coughGoGoSquid*). I really liked Dr. Qin Medical Examiner, which was a fun Sherlockian detective show, though I hear the second season (which recast the leads) was not good. I don’t know if they were as mold-breaking as some K-dramas or TW-dramas, but again, I largely chalk that up to censorship and an inability to express certain ideas in storytelling.
pickleddragon
May 27, 2020 at 4:39 AM
Point well made, and something I had not thought through. I feel that the industry is losing out on so much talent potential as a result.
Most of the cdramas I have watched (excerpts of, because I drop them fairly quickly) feel like they bring together all of the worst of trope-filled Bollywood extravaganzas and then some. :/
SnarkyJellyfish
May 27, 2020 at 7:27 AM
I was speaking with a friend of mine some time ago about the Chinese entertainment industry, and from what I gathered it doesn’t seem that China sees drama or even acting as a high art form. My friend is an actress/model/musician and was born in China but works in the US and according to her unless you are at the top acting isn’t considered a respectable job, even less so than in other places. It’s not something that is encouraged – at least that was the impression she gave me. With that in mind, it would seem that if the value of those who make dramas is low, then that, coupled with censorship, would cause the industry to stagnate in the areas where there isn’t a tried and true audience.
This is why I think the C-dramas that are hailed as the best are usually historical (e.g. Nirvana in Fire, Story of Yanxi Palace, etc.) and therefore play to the nationalism and censorship placed on them by the government. It seems that web dramas can push the envelope a bit but those will never have budget and can easily be cut off from local audiences if the government feels like it. I’m not sure how this effects movies – but it’s clear that dramas are heavily effected by censorship and government intervention.
Honestly, the knowledge of the levels of governmental control on media are a large part of why I can’t really love C-drama. It always feels like there’s something missing and it’s clear that this has to do with the interference from outside forces.
pickleddragon
May 28, 2020 at 9:36 PM
This is very insightful about how actors are perceived in Chinese society. And you are right – combined with censorship, this is not going to offer up a rich portfolio of dramas, for sure. It’s going to take me a while to warm up to c-dramas, at this rate! Sigh. Not for the lack of trying, though.
Thank you for some very interesting and valuable comments on this! Always grateful. 🙂
Ayan
May 24, 2020 at 4:31 PM
It’s only recently that I’ve started watching more cdramas and the majority I’ve seen are high school/college coming of age romances. These shows are a cute, fluffy watch and I appreciate the production team casting virtually unknown actors in these roles.
Two modern dramas which I enjoyed a lot were Find Yourself and Le Coup de Foudre.
pickleddragon
May 24, 2020 at 9:34 PM
“the majority I’ve seen are high school/college coming of age romances. These shows are a cute, fluffy watch and I appreciate the production team casting virtually unknown actors in these roles.”
Exactly my observation too! That’s what prompted my original comment! They’re a cute and fluffy watch, and there’s an audience for it (including myself occasionally), and it’s great that pretty young things are getting an opportunity, etc. etc. But there’s also probably many many veteran actors who can do justice to a solid script? Where are those actors, and where are those scripts? Are they not being made at all? Or are they being made and we don’t get to see them because our feeds are overrun by the cute fluffy stuff? I feel like I am missing a major piece of the c-drama puzzle.
Trinity 🍆
May 24, 2020 at 6:06 PM
There are tons and tons of cdramas and you get a lot of awful ones but then you find some gems among them. I love finding those gems.
Cdramas also pump out tons of web dramas which are usually lower budget dramas.
But a lot of the ratings and views tend to come from their period/costume dramas so a lot of the big productions and money goes towards those types of dramas. Dramas such as Nirvana in Fire, Story of Ming Lan or Story of Yanxi Palace you can tell put a lot of money into the productions. They are very high end.
Some modern cdramas I really liked that had great actors in them is:
Love me if you Dare (this one has Sandra Ma who I love)
Go Go Squid
Kings Avatar
Reset Life
Put Your Head on My Shoulder
Find Yourself
Skate into Love
When a Snail Falls in Love
My Love, Enlighten Me (I’m watching this now and so far I’m enjoying it)
pickleddragon
May 24, 2020 at 9:44 PM
I haven’t seen any web dramas – how do they compare against the Korean web dramas? Plus, the period dramas I have heard lots about, but not managed to dip my fingers in. I should try 🙂
I tried LOVE ME IF YOU DARE for Sandra Ma (:D) but dropped it early, don’t remember why. I’ve also watched some of the others, and yes, even enjoyed them – e.g., SKATE INTO LOVE. But I was wondering if there were shows that were different from this standard (mostly trope-y) teen/campus romances that were coming out of China. As a comparator, I was thinking of, say, BLACK DOG (not a super brilliant show, but it uses the same school set-up to talk about different things), or even SCHOOL 2013 (which was uh-mazing).
Trinity 🍆
May 25, 2020 at 5:15 PM
Some of the web ones I personally like more than TV aired ones. One of the most popular cdrama The Untamed is a web drama. I actually am surprised to find out which are web dramas at times.
Oh ya they have other dramas outside of your school romance type ones. I don’t watch those too often so can’t really recommended but there was one that just aired called Hunting that was quite popular in China and one airing now called Autumn Cicada that’s like a 1920s espionage drama that seems to also be popular.
pickleddragon
May 27, 2020 at 4:35 AM
Ooh I didn’t know that about THE UNTAMED. Interesting.
I feel like the college/youth cdramas that seem to be all over the place are more like extended versions of the Korean web dramas that are floating around.
I’ve been seeing clips for AUTUMN CICADA, but not gotten around to watching it.