Lololololol Silver + Tarnishing = Poison (Arsenic) at it again.
Congratulations Poison Theorists, youβre looking to be right.
And the Butterfly Norigaeβs absence WAS a plot point of convenience, ofc it was.
Although in 6 it turns out my focus on him having a heart issue is also probably still right; both Tae Ha’s have health issues and both Tae Ha’s have step mothers or other people trying to kill them for their inheritance etc.
7- The drama Beanies convinced you to watch and you canβt be grateful enough.
I was gonna be a killjoy again on this entry but Iβve been listening to Advent music all day so now I kinda donβt really feel like itβ¦ *blinks at self in shock* No hay ninguna. Have a (mostly) unrelated song instead.
also the Destined With You writer.
and Heartbeat writer.
but please spare the kimchi. It is too expensive to make now, they raised the consumer tax 14%
I am paying 9 euros for a cabbage.
WHAT?! This is just plain outrageous. I’m getting my cabbage from either the local Asian shop or on market days, and it still ends up being cheaper to make my own kimchi batch rather than buying it pre-made. (OMG I sound so middle class, this is terrifying. I apologise profusely)
Only problem is that my fridge is now filled with kimchi jars. Good ol’ cabbage and also some radish kimchi (the radish one turned out even cheaper than the cabbage kimchi because nobody seemed to be buying those big radishes here so I could get 2 of those for under 1 EUR)
What vegetable would be most suitable for an affordable slap attack for Tallinn Beanies? I’m happy improvising and potato slapping them if needs be. Pretty sure a frozen potato in the face would be way more effective than a leaf of cabbage kimchi.
banana peel slap, yes thats great
no potato peel we use these to clear chimney (if you burn them you get rid of the tar in the chimney) – more middle class tricks
@sicarius@seeker yeah, dry the potato peels first then burn them. this knowledge is inherited way back from greatgreatgramma. but also confirmed by a professional chimneysweeper.
and dried orange and mandarin peels are great for starting fire it is better than using paper since paper is actually bad for chimneys
um I think sometimes we have leftover iceberg lettuces half price. I also grow swiss chard myself in the basement. they grow excellently even in winter and in dark just that they turn out very light in color
yea I suppose our prices will fluctuate with seasons as well. some retailers did this, they lowered prices as much as possible before adding tax and now some places are rather reasonable. but some didnt care and just put the tax on top.
my moms an economist and she explains that raising taxes will not actually work in filling the budjet and they will have to raise them again – BECAUSE they raised them? I am not quite sure of the logic but it seems it is not a very good strategy so im hoping they will lower them back.
Here is my \”Tall People Club\” list- I haven\’t updated it in a while, but I thought I would share it and then use both my list, and yours, Kas, and do some more updating while I\’m at it. Don\’t really have anything better to do right now. Well I mean I could be watching The Goyreo Khitan War I guess. or drawing the little voice at the back of my head says
Added some tall ladies too, just a few as I haven\’t got their list as detailed yet, and yes, this is in metric mainly, hahaha.
As you can see I categorize by \”range\” and then have most of the heights and variants listed alongside.
185-186 Range:
Sung Hoon 185
Park Seo Joon 185
Lee Soo Hyuk (184, 185)
Ok Taecyeon (185, 186)
Ahn Bo Hyun (186)
Kim Dowan 186
Lee Jong Suk 186
Ji Soo 186
Kim Jae Young
Park Hae Jin
Chae Jong-Hyeop
187 Range:
Jang Ki Yong 187
Lee Jae Wook 187
Shin Seung Ho 187
Na In Woo (187)
Lee Min Ho 187
Song Won Seok
Kwak Si Yang
188-189 Range:
Go Kyung Pyo
Ahn Hyo Seop 187, 188
Koo Ja Sung
Cha Seung Won
Byeon Woo Seok (187, 189)
Ju Ji Hoon (187, 189)
Ahn Jae Hyun
Lee Jung Shin 188
Kang Hui/Hee 188
Nam Joo Hyuk (188)
Woobin
Sung Joon
KYK 188.5, (187)
Lee Taehwan 188, 189
Shin Sung Rok 188, 189
190 Plus Range:
Kwangsoo 189, 190, 192, 193, 194
Rowoon 190.5, (189, 190, 192)
Yoon Kyun Sang 191, 192
Lee Ki Woo 190, 192. 193
6β1 Range (185+-187.9)
6β2 Range (188-190)
6β3 Range (190-193)
6β4 Range
Ladies:
Hong Jin-Kyung (180)
Lee Da Hee (176, 5β9)
Jung Ho Yeon (176)
Lee Sung Kyung (175, 176)
Ah the imperial to metric switch. Having used both for equal amount of years, I still need to recalibrate. Itβs just disorienting. Unless I am drunk when everything is perfectly aligned.
Lmao!!!! My dad was more affected by the switch than I ever have been – but I tell you where it does come up – in writing, writing distances and measurements in metric just feels WRONG. Imperial all the way for writing. And the more obscure the better. Fathoms, leagues, stone, chains? Yeah.
Metric was better for this because it was more useful in noting the variations, and also for creating more categories. There are more centremetres than inches etc.
ooooh thank you Sic! I’m going to have fun “working” through this list and being like ‘ohh’ and ‘ahhh’ and ‘oh?’ (idk how else to describe what me ‘working’ through a list looks like). Will start off with one right off the bat – Chae Jong-Hyeop is not as tall as I thought!!! Like he’s quite tall but I thought he was taller!
Looking forward to also seeing what the consolidated & updated list looks like 👀
This entire list is above 6 foot, so no, still pretty tall! We’re just used to beanstalks and models being actors because it fits the look lol. The average height for men in Korea is about 174.5 cm (5 ft 8+1β2 in).
I totally get that @lapislazulii and @sicarius… I admit to being surprised by some of this list, and I think it’s because of perspective… I was under the impression that a goodish number of these men were under 6 feet tall, and thought they were of “average” height. But that’s because they are in dramas with other very tall men!!!! A veritable forest of giants!!! Lol they just seem average by comparison/perspective 😂 It would really be obvious in dramas if they threw in some civilians for comparison, like how you put a quarter next to a piece of hail to take a picture of how big it is LOL
@hopefulromantic a lot of extras and secondary characters are more typical in height tbh. And remember, they frame things a lot so they don’t always LOOK “tall”, as in kiss scenes 😂
Jun Ji Hyun is on my list but farther down, around about the 5’8″ / 173 range and section for the ladies.
I just shared the top four I have listed because I haven’t done the formatting and research properly yet.
I don’t think I take one. I think I look across them all and either list the discrepancies or take an average, or the one most mentioned, yes.
For Rowoon, I took what he said in interview haha, and listed the other heights he’s been given in brackets, for example.
I think we have to think about what is common and relative for us too. 5’8″ is tall for a women in most places. And the Dutch ofc will skew any perception in proximity 🤭 when they’re the exception.
I don’t have her on my list of Ladies though, so I’ll add her.
Last time I watched him was in Class of Lies, then I saw Lee Joon Young in May I Help You and I was startled that he was quite tall! (185) He looked like a baby beside YKS in CoL! 😄 Good casting for a teacher for trouble making boys.
One of the fun parts of Faith for me was hitting pause whenever he and Lee Min Ho were in the same frame and laughing my head off. 😆 He is so much taller than LMH, and he was quite thin back then. Of course the director took care not to put them near each other but it did happen a few times.
Cha Seung Won is on the List already. Hyun Bin was on Kas’ list and I’ll add him but only after I verify he is indeed most listed as 6’1″ and not closer to 6’0″ 🤣🤣
In Vigilante Yoo Ji Tae has a good inch on NJH, but NJH isn’t standing up straight and I can’t really determine what their shoes are like in the scene I am thinking of.
One NJH record says 187. If he really is 186/187, that would put YJT about 188/189, which I think feels right. Ofc, they could both be shorter still… 🤭
Sic, may I nominate for inclusion at 6β2 around 188: Shin Hyun Soo whose height was accented in TWELVE NIGHTS (2018) (Viki US) where he played a contemporary dance
Well as you can see, even his recorded varies a lot… or he lied in interview also hahaha.
He is VERY tall though. Like you can tell he is taller than most people on this list. *shrugs* *if he is shorter he’s closer for me to punch though…*
When he had back issues (disk), he couldn’t work anymore. So when he was feeling better, he showed his medical record on his Instagram and we could see his height, so I think the 190.5 came from there.
No, Rowoon is really 190.5. He was lying by saying 189cm when he debuted. He told during Knowing Bros, that the number 190 scares people even if technically, it’s just 1cm longer.
He seems to be one where finding any recorded height is hard, I have a few of those. But fortunately we have additional information here to help us haha.
Do you have any pics of him in KA? Or a link to the BTS? I don’t remember him at ALL.
Sic, Yoo Min Kyu, the second male lead from Deserving of the Name, is cited as 188 cm. I suddenly remembered that he was quite taller than Kim Nam Gil.
4- The drama you loved and Beanies hated / The drama Beanies loved and you didnβt.
[a] I am the *only* person I know that found Black Knight entertaining more than anything else lmao. I am perfectly aware of everything wrong with it, donβt worry. Others found it boring, stupid, nonsensical, you name it. And I canβt blame them, honestly. I wonβt defend it. But I for one had a grand olβ time bingeing it. Explain that one, will you. 😅😅😅
(also Primary x Tablo OST? Donβt mind if I do)
[b] As usual, a lot.
I donβt really know if my perception of βBeanieβs Loved Itβ is accurate, and many are probably more realistically ~ 50/50 ~ in how people felt about them, but whatever.
I modified the wording of this half, because whilst I did straight up hate some of these, others, although they arenβt quite blacklisted, I sure didnβt LOVE them or even really like them as a whole enough either for any reason.:
Island
Love to Hate You
My Perfect Stranger/ You Who I Met By Chance
Tale of the Nine Tailed 1938
See You In My 19TH Life
Bloodhounds
Celebrity
Moving
My Dearest
Destined With You/ Rowoon in general
Fake it Till You Make it (CDRAMA)
Vigilante
My Lovely Liar
Hidden Love (CDRAMA)
Call it Love
Into the Ring
Rookie Historian Goo Hae Ryung
King the Land
Twinkling Watermelon
Castaway Diva
The Day/ The Kidnapping Day
Daily Dose of Sunshine
Ray of Light (CDRAMA) (only know three people who watched this but I was still the odd one out regarding it so!)
Arcane (actually I didnβt like any of the newer occidental shows I watched this year and this is not a drama but I definitely didnβt love this in particular as much as everyone else did so on the list it goes!)
Thereβs a bunch of shows in general I completely tuned out of the general consensus on, or forgot the public opinion of, so I quite possibly added shows that shouldnβt be here, or didnβt add others that do qualify.
I loved Black Knight! Maybe I was too entranced with Kim Wu Bin’s constant frowning, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
also: why do guys look hot when they frown?
I found a kindred spirit! Lmao! I thought I was the only one!!! 🤣🤣🤣
It was very entertaining to watch him murder model walk everywhere with a gun kekeke
oh yeah. he has the perfect eyebrows for frowning. they were MADE for frowning. LOL his entire bone structure was made for frowning. he should never smile EVER.
(except to smile at Shin Min A, they’re perfect together!)
1- Female lead you will never forget (for better or worse).
2- Male lead you will never forget (for better or worse).
Iβm going to be honest, even of the few shows that I didnβt hate, and even among the shows I disliked! I donβt think any of the leads really stood out enough to me to be super sticky. Not like some years. Uri Skunk-nim is *perhaps* the closest?
Look, no, the fact I had to actually RACK my brain for any other entry means I donβt think anyone really qualifies. It says βNEVER FORGETββ¦ ☠🪦
3- Side character that stole the drama.
The Donkey from Joseon Attorney? Lol. Yikes gotta draw the new additions to the Royal Menagerie too, donβt I, scheiΓe. (If I immortalise 🦨 in drawing form, perhaps then he can make the cut for the above categories.)
Anyway, I mean Iβm bias but. Petition for Bead Boy aka LEE JAE KYUN to get a lead role already.
[a. See You in My 19th Lyfe
b. Song of the Bandits
c. Tell Me You Love Me]
🍈 MELONIA CURRENT COMPLETE 2023 TELEVISION WATCHLIST 🍈
ORIENTAL:
1. The Forbidden Marriage
2. Island (Season 1)
3. Hi Venus CDRAMA (2022)
4. Crash Course in Romance (Dropped Ep 12)
5. Meet Yourself CDRAMA
6. Can We Be Strangers Again? (Dropped Ep 4)
7. Our Blooming Youth
8. The Blood of Youth CDRAMA
9. Love to Hate You
10. Call It Love
11. Into the Ring (2020) (Dropped Ep 5)
12. Road Home CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 2)
13. Remembrance of Things Past CDRAMA (2021)
14. Oasis (Dropped Ep 1)
15. NigeHaji/We Married As A Job JDRAMA (2016)
16. Nothing But You CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 12 of 38)
17. Joseon Attorney: A Morality
18. Borah! Deborah!
19. Stealer: The Treasure Keeper/Skunk
20. Family (Dropped Ep 1)
21. WATCHER (2019)
22. You Who I Met By Chance / My Perfect Stranger
23. Tale of the Nine Tailed 1938 (Dropped Ep 2)
24. Black Knight
25. Rookie Historian Goo Hae Ryung (2019) (Dropped Ep 3)
26. Ashes of Love CDRAMA (2018) (Dropped Ep 2.5)
27. Delightfully Dysfunctional
28. I Want to Resign Every Single Day CDRAMA 2022
29. Bloodhounds
30. See You in my 19th Life (Dropped Episode 8)
31. King the Land
32. When I Fly Towards You CDRAMA
33. Hidden Love CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 11)
34. Celebrity
35. Ray of Light CDRAMA
36. Useless Lies (probable Dropped Ep 6)
37. First Responders S2 (Dropped Ep 4)
38. My Dearest
39. The Killer is Also Romantic CDRAMA 2022
40. Moving (Dropped Ep 3)
41. You Are Desire CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 11/12)
42. Destined With You (Dropped Ep 4)
43. My Journey to You CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 3)
44. Fake it Till You Make It CDRAMA
45. The Day/ The Kidnapping Day
46. Song of the Bandits
47. Twinkling Watermelon (Dropped Ep 6)
48. The Worst of Evil
49. Evilive (Dropped Ep 2)
50. SPY X FAMILY S01 ANIME (2022)
51. Castaway Diva
52. Moon That Rises in the Day (Dropped Ep 2)
53. Daily Dose of Sunshine
54. Vigilante
55. The Goryeo Khitan War
56. The Deal (probable drop @ Ep 1)
57. The Story of Parkβs Marriage Contract
58. Boyhood (probable drop @ Ep 1)
59. Tell Me You Love Me
60. Secret Playlist
61. Welcome to Samdaldri
OCCIDENTAL:
62. Arcane (2021)
63. Outer Banks S01, 02, 03
64. The Night Agent
65. The Night Manager (2016)
66. The Recruit (Dropped Ep 7)
67. The Diplomat (Dropped Ep 2)
68. XO Kitty
69. Only Murders in the Building S01, Dropped S02, Ep 6 ish.
70. Avatar: The Last Airbender (Rewatch)
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.
.
Classification Notes:
Italicised is Currently Watching.
Bold, Completed.
Standard, Dropped.
I typically classify 2023 dramas as any drama that has the majority of its run time in 2023.
Therefore, THE BLOOD OF YOUTH is a 2023 drama, and technically, THE GORYEO KHITAN WAR will be a 2024 drama, although if I drop it this year, weβll probably class it as a 2023 drama anyway.
For situations like this, or ones that are split half/half, I decide arbitrarily, based on whatever I feel like.
I wasnβt supposed to watch a similar number of shows this year as last year, but on the other hand we did set a new finished CDRAMA record of a vast sum total of 7, which makes all the difference.
This is almost the same amount of CDRAMAs as I have watched previously total, so is in fact quite the personal achievement. 😂
☠ Official Stats and 2023 Royal Bean Count to come on December the 31st. ☠
We had these many dramas? Thank you for this; I feel the K-drama fatigue and only completed 3 or 4 dramas for the beans.
My new year resolution is to try more new dramas, even fast food dramas.
Er. Yeah. Although tbh it didn’t feel like it half the time, cos often I felt like both there was nothing to watch and nothing airing that interested me… 😅
“My new year resolution is to try more new dramas, even fast food dramas”
Oh no hahaha. Having done this inadvertently for two years I’m not sure it will be worth it but hwaiting!
DANG I was proud of myself for hitting 50 kdramas, with maybe a handful of dropped ones! LOL
I have zero patience left for western shows, except for 4 comfort shows that I have on an endless loop.
That’s still a lot! You probably dropped less than me. There will be people with way more than me in the bean count too for both of us to be shocked at lol.
For the first 6 years I watched dramas I didn’t watch anything Occidental pretty much haha.
I’ve watched a few more of later years?? Although not many, but they almost always disappoint me in extremely inevitible and predictable ways haha.
Out of more sheer boredom than anything else I tried more than usual this year, and don’t worry, I had little patience for most of them too LMAO.
But to be honest, my run with kdramas is hardly any better overall so.
Unfortunately, I can’t rate a lot of this show very highly, but I did like how these two scenes were shot, framed and in the case of the first one, lit. The Goryeo-Khitan War 5+6 Part 1
Double amnesia plot, return of the red string of fate in the bloody last episode, and you didnβt even kill him? Fxxk off.
So youβre also not even actually any kind a tragedy, let alone a failed one. Just fantastic writing guys, f a n t a s t i c. Yeah, Iβm mad they DIDNβT die, you read that right.
My little joke didn’t work, I see…I would send a box of melonia if I could but I guess that would not lift the spirits of our Queen also…
Should I kill them for you? I am no sicarius material, but for you I could try. 🤣
But seriously, I am happy it ended, I have been obsessed for months by it and from what I gather, you still were until the very end, even for oposite reasons. It’s only a freaking kdrama, nothing to be mad about. 🤣
@seeker
I think I can handle GC with what you guys are offering, but with JH I will need more than that to survive. 🤣 Maybe a grenade or automatic machine gun, but….even those will probably induce another amnesia and I will not make it alive, I am afraid. 🤣🤣🤣
Take your time to process.
We will eagerly await your comments at the recaps.
Till then, I can’t even count the buckets of tears that MD made me shed – even to fill a couple of lakes – for this.
🤣 🤣 🤣
Kodra you were right about the writer having the last laugh.
I do believe the saying is βhe who laughs last laughs longestβ and here we have many someones laughing all the way to their banks. 🏦 💸
I did finish Episode 21. It did not make much sense, but I was curious, plus the music was good. Now I need to rewatch Chuno and Nokdu Flower to get my coherent ending fix.
i swear, at some point in ep 21 – nam goon min, while crying seemed to have that “i can’t believe i have to do this” look on his face, if only just for a fleeting second…
did i hear correctly that they “extended” the series and we got this 90 minute episode 21?
i agree, they should’ve been killed off cuz this ending made no sense…
MOON THAT RISES IN THE DAY SH🌜TPOST:
AKA Why is there a wakizashi in bloody Three Kingdoms Korea.
Although I think The Battle of Hastings is honestly funnier in terms of the whole losing side revenge shenanigans, and also more equivalent to the anachronistic weapons time difference… I donβt get to make a Welsh Longbowman joke, so, in tribute to my Celtic roots, weβll stick with this (and also Iβm not looking up Norman French.) @minniegupta1 for you 🫰
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.
.
EXT. β AZINCOURT, FRANCE β AD 25 OCT 1415 β EVENING
A French soldier runs through the trees away from the battle, hand in hand with one who appears to be a Welsh Longbowman (albeit of unusually small stature for a Welsh Longbowmanβ¦)
They stop at the edge of a stream to pause for breath.
FRENCH SOLDIER (en franΓ§ais): We are safe now. And we are together. At last.
The Welsh longbowman jerks away suddenly, and violently. The French soldier turns to them in confusion.
WELSH SOLDIER: Non.
The French solider, aware now that he is being betrayed holds a hand to his chest, and gasps.
FRENCH SOLDIER: *gasp*
The Welshman pulls off their hood dramatically to reveal themself to be not a longbowman at all, and also, a woman.
She draws a 9mm compact Glock 43, that glistens darkly in the moonlight.
The Frenchman sinks to his knees in shock, distraught.
FRENCH SOLDIER: Why- why are you doing this, mon cherie? I- I love you! Je tβaime!
The Welsh compatriot looks down at the Frenchman coldly and lifts the gun to his head.
WELSH SOLDIER (yn cymraeg): Because⦠you are French.
Is it all about money, honey?
Lazy storytelling, lazy prop / costume department.
Don’t do things you cannot justify.
Low budget is one thing, lack of care is another.
It was bad. My recap comment dragging it, is already written and I’m sad it’s gonna get cut up by the new commenting layout cos I don’t think I can get it under 3000 characters 🤣
Personally, I think it would be ten times funnier if he couldn’t read hangul at all.
You and I were twins in that moment ahahaha because I thought almost the exact same thing. I suppose it could be part of the body’s “memory” but… 🙄 (this is also in the comment dw)
It was just convenient saying he can read both the dead persons memories. So we just have to assume he knows everything Joon Oh knew. So he can be modern. They just killed all the fun in having a 1500 year old ghost in a modern body.
No, this probably is not a show for saguk lovers…
I guess I’m enjoying it so far, because I started it on a whim, with no prior knowledge, only remembering words webtoon, revenge, firewoman as bodyguard… and Kim Youngdae (of course ☺️).
Same! Iβm expecting lots of plot armor and for the KYDβs character to have whatever amount of current knowledge suits the exact scene heβs in β consistency be damned. But Iβll keep watching β maybe while folding laundry β for him, Pyo Ye-Jin and the poor, beleaguered manager.
I’m impressed you missed anything to do with it. That’s like the exact opposite of me.
O’ve been following this show for a year because I will lap up any news of anything to do with Silla. Unfortunately I could tell pretty early on I wasn’t going to like it lmao, and all my red flags then were pretty accurate. 😂😂😂
😂😂
I usually try to know just a bare minimum about the upcoming shows, skimming through the DB news and premiering shows, hardly ever watching the trailers… and then my goldfish memory working, especially for shows not on my priority list, like this one 😁
I totally understand your disappointment as a saguk lover, and I always admire you (and kiara and others) for your extensive history knowledge. Moon will clearly be a webtoon mess. 😁 I will see next week wether I’m still in the mood and continue… or drop.
I think I’m all or nothing, really depends on the show hahaha.
I didn’t have much hope of it being serious in its fake sageukness tbh, but sigh, I’ll do anything for 3 Kingdoms crumbs anyway.
Idk about extensive, I learn a lot on the fly, enjoyment of it though
yes HAHA but thank you.
Hwaiting!!!
But even so, take me back to Silla dammit. Iβll take *that any day over wondering how youβre gonna pull off a romance with a creepy obsessed ghost in a conveniently dead manβs body!
#JustHerefortheSillaFlashbacks aka Moon That Rises in the Day Ep 1
I would argue it’s debatable whether or not they actually can and DO pull such things off.
People enjoying them and them getting made is not proof of being well made or well written romances 🤭🤭🤭
You know why I started this drama. I haven’t exactly been quiet about it lmao. It’s also right there in the post.
Oh and my issue here is actually pulling off a retroactive redemption romance with the ghost in possession of a literal dead body, who also wants to kill her, because there is nothing at all romantic about that for me and there’s probably not ever going to be and I can see no way in which this will end well. 😂
MY DEAREST: VANITY OF VANITIES PART TWO: In Relation to, the Entire Show, although as of writing, only up to Episode 16
aka past me was right 29/10/23
@angelshadows50 I am going to reply to our conversation on the Episode 11+12 recap, here, on my fanwall, partly because of the length this reached , which means therefore also partly because of the new DB commenting default that will put my replies to you out of order, which will be frustrating for me, and confusing for everyone else, and partly because I want to take my time to discuss parts of 13 through 16 as well, both with regards to our prior conversation, but also just in general.
I have thus used our conversation as a springboard and framing device to write a very incensed essay about this show. This is not directed at you personally, this by no means any kind of personal attack, it just happened to be easier to both reply to you and write an essay, at the same time, in the same thing. (You made three points. So I will reply to each, but because of the overall point I want to make, I am going to reply to them somewhat out of order. Lol.)
I feel that my fears that I wrote about in 9+10 have been fulfilled and that this show is taking a direction in its story I neither like, nor enjoy, nor think it objectively shouldβve. I reference that essay a lot below as well, since all of my opinions in it are still extremely relevant, especially my conclusion, so I will link it here: https://www.dramabeans.com/members/sicarius/activity/1476910/
I will finish this show, but I will finish it with liberal use of the ffwd button and a great disappointment, although not much surprise, at how far from grace what couldβve been my favourite drama of the year has fallen.
As such, this is the last thing I will be writing on this show; I no longer care nor feel like I can properly root for any of our characters, except for maybe the Crown Prince and his wife, but since I know how that ends and since they donβt really get enough screen time that’s not nearly enough.
I will therefore, see you all in Goryeo.
.
.
.
Also, the reason Gil Chae is married is in my view a logical follow-through on her part of her decision to abandon Jang Hyeon β and the writer did for his female lead what she intended with her superimposition of the GWTW theme in my eyes here too : when the Β«Korean ScarlettΒ» of the 1600s follows through out of emotional growth and a sense of resposibility as now de facto head of her family she has to marry that protector Goo Won Moo, the Β«American ScarlettΒ» at the point of marrying Frank did it because she needed a man out of a factual need to βif I remember correctlyβ protect her beloved Tara. So there is a parallel here, I find. Hence there is an internal reason for Gil Chae to marry, and I do not agree that it is Β«trashyΒ» or contrived.
1. Why I donβt like her marriage subplot:
I can break this down into 4 subpoints.
1. I donβt like that this show follows GWTW and I donβt think it SHOULD follow GWTW, and I think the writer pulling so much from it is detrimental to her own story, and Iβm not interested in defending writing decisions based on it basically copying GWTW plot point for plot point, since I have ignored that part of the show up to this point, and intend to continue to do so.
2. I disagree with the entire way that her βabandoningβ JH was handled in episodes 9+10 and discussed why in my essay on the recap.
Not because I wanted her to elope with him, but because I think their entire relationship development shouldβve happened completely differently and with no GWTW and with no first husband.
3. I cannot be on board with the OTP if she is married as I cannot and will not support adultery, even if her husband is a nincompoop.
I also do not like, nay, I loathe, how a lot of the scenes between the leads regarding their relationship have been handled and written by the show during the period of her engagement and marriage.
I donβt actually even like that sheβs divorced now tbh. She still canβt remarry because of Joseonβs laws at the time, so it feels like an obstacle between the leads for the sake of being an obstacle between the leads and nothing else, and the romance canβt be properly enjoyed, as anything, even if itβs tragic, if itβs constantly fraught with bullshit. Are we even supposed to enjoy it? (See #3, perhaps we are notβ¦)
4. The line I used about it being βtrashyβ is because I feel like she only got married, really, internal reasoning aside, so that the show can farther push home the spoiled woman trope, which for me as of episode 13+14 and definitely as of 16, is really beginning to feel too heavy handed and almost gratuitous and the show has lost its nuance about such awful historic subject matters: I used trashy because I think being gratuitous is trashy storytelling.
This is a common complaint I have with kdramas, in that in their attempts to criticise something that anyone can see to be wrong (Joseonβs treatment of women, specifically women captured in wars etc.), they become heavy handed and gratuitous, and sometimes even manipulative, which means they cannot properly criticise or provide proper commentary.
This essentially leads me to feeling like her marriage has no Greater Narrative reason to exist.
Nothing that happened in 11-16, or even in my opinion 9-10, truly required her to be married to happen. No conflict, nor attempt at development and no stakes required her to be married. I donβt find it necessary for her to be married for any of the political plot to happen, or for the love line to be well developed, either in angst and tragedy, or otherwise.
You could ALMOST take it as a plot point out of the story entirely and you would basically have the same thing. Or you could easily have enough of the same thing that has happened so far. The only major thing you would have to change for that is the events of 9 and 10, to end up at a similar emotional point. Which I have argued in favour of anyway.
The only thing you WOULDNβT have, is Returning Women plot line, and the additional suffering and judgement Gil Chae has to face by not only being any woman returning, but a returning MARRIED woman. Which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If thatβs the only remaining reason to have her be married.
I feel that her marriage arc is being used by the narrative to push this historical criticism and to mimic GWTW, and not because it is the best narrative decision the story couldβve or shouldβve made for these characters and with the themes it established at the beginning. And yes, I think that way, even knowing GCβs position in an historic narrative, and this time period, as well.
I have more to say on this below, though, so keep reading.
Qing envoys constantly went in and out of Hanyang between 1637 and 1645 (until after Ming fell for sure), so why would there not be one checking on the βrepatriationβ of βtheirβ valuable slaves (in their eyes, and in particular if they fled from a royal Qing household) and witnessing the scene between Gil Chae and the elderly worker of her smithy? And it was clearly the Joseon go-between who suggested the kidnapping to him, not his idea at first. He was just worried to retrieve valuable slaves to bed with his employer so as not to get killed or demoted instead. Why is that contrived?
2. Why her capture to Qing felt contrived:
I donβt quite know how to explain how it comes across as contrived in any way more than has already been discussed. But Iβll try.
In terms of storytelling, I found the set up for all of this very broad; too broad.
Gil Chaeβs slave happened to get caught and turned in. And then she argued with him in the square. And then she happened to be overheard and seen by an envoy, who happened to take a liking to her specifically, and decide to capture her specifically, our Leading Lady no less.
Again, itβs not that this didnβt happen, or that it couldnβt have happened, or that it couldnβt have happened to her specifically either.
Itβs that the set up for her being captured feels like it exists ONLY to get her captured, and not because it makes sense for HER to be captured, THEN, and like THAT.
It feels contrived, not because the slavery angle isnβt unrealistic, or even that opportunistic envoys is particularly unrealistic, but because of how it was executed and used by the story.
It just feels like they did it because they needed to get her to Qing, to forward the angst and the leadsβ story somehow, and not because each thing happened as a *natural* narrative flow on effect, even if it can be argued to technically be an historic one.
But even as an historic one, I feel like they shouldβve done a better job of integrating this into the plot and the flow of the action.
Which leads me nicely, into my last section, so I can talk about this exact problem, and others, more.
Dear @sicarius, I said I would elaborate β¦ Before another day starts full-throttle for me here, let m…
As the βhope and beautyβ of the GWTW era existed entirely in Margaret F*ing Mitchellβs head, Iβd say the writer has succeeded brilliantly in capturing that.
suffer, for the sake of suffering itself
This might as well be the showβs title; βμ°μΈ/Loversβ is misdirection verging on fraud. At this point Iβm watching with the same morbid interest I might take in an extensive scab thatβs just starting to heal.
I mean, of course Iβm watching to see amazing actors acting amazingly even when theyβre fighting their way through a maddeningly circular plot, because an opportunity to see NGM and company tear into roles like these doesnβt come around often, but how long can they keep rising above the preposterous Groundhog Day situations the writer has put them in? Will we see them give up and just phone it in when theyβre doing the same damned scenes with nearly identical dialogue over and over and over? Ironically the repetitiveness and lack of growth or resolution has taken me so far out of the story that Iβm noticing actors doing their work instead of characters being themselves.
The leads are at the mercy of a writer who has (what she thinks is) one good idea and keeps hammering at it without the ability to recognize that itβs become stale and that the angst beats no longer land because (a) we can see them coming a mile away and (b) weβre just numb because weβve been hit on the same spot so often. Spiral up, spiral down, I don’t care anymore but this is a closed loop going nowhere. In a weird way, this is starting to remind me of Extraordinary You where even self-aware characters cannot break free of the unimaginative manwha authorβs endless recycling of characters and plots. Every time they try, they just get dragged back into the frame by the heavy hand of the writer.
I did not realize JH spent six months in bed, pretending he still needed GCβs nursing – I thought it was somewhere between six days and six weeks. And he gets up and unwinds the bandages after all that time and still has those muscles? LOL. Oh well, a moment of fanservice is a respite from pain p()rn. And on the topic of fanservice, the obsessive jealous princess is insultingly unrealistic and out of place in this story and I refuse to engage with that nonsense no matter how much scope it gives NGM for glaring or looking anguished.
Reacting partly to your previous essay: I do wonder how much of my/our collective reaction to this show is shaped by the foundational notion that suffering is redemptive, either before or after death (which is not a part of my religious tradition but permeates my culture) and therefore when suffering neither redeems nor explores lack of redemption, but just IS, that is what renders it meaningless. If the show wants to give us ‘meaningless’ but realistic suffering such as occurred with mind-boggling frequency in Joseon, it should be a documentary. Storytelling needs meaning.
It’s creeving infuriating isn’t it? “”Ironically the repetitiveness and lack of growth or resolution has taken me so far out of the story that Iβm noticing actors doing their work instead of characters being themselves.””
Multiple times this week I could only think “who even is Jang Hyun again” the character writing is that inconsistent. AEJ sobbing when she realises how much he’s done for her was brilliant work but I’m heartless and felt naught because I’m writing and character driven lmao.
Oh the EY comparison is so hilariously and ironically apt considering my reasons for hating that show hahaha bravo. 🤣🤣
I almost mentioned the state of his body but decided it was lesser titbit to the greater issue. And I’m estimating off what I know regarding other crops, but yeah if you plant in the Spring and Harvest in the Autumn then yes that’s about 6 effing months. I almost made a whole separate post just to rip that entire mess out.
💯 to the princess. I eyeroll my way through a lot of this now, can you tell.
“”therefore when suffering neither redeems nor explores lack of redemption, but just IS, that is what renders it meaningless. If the show wants to give us βmeaninglessβ but realistic suffering such as occurred with mind-boggling frequency in Joseon, it should be a documentary. Storytelling needs meaning.””
👏👏👏 Because Suffering itself needs meaning, yeah.
And the Death of Meaning should not be served.
>> As an example on the Capture feeling contrived front:
When the girls went to Ganghwa Island it felt like a logical narrative decision for multiple reasons: it was used similarly for conflict, yes, but it also made sense in that Ganghwa was known to be the safest place and nobody would assume otherwise at the time, and to show the trust between GC and JH and the result of that as well.
Ofc we as the viewer know because of history it was going to be a bad idea, but it’s not Illogical for that to happen within the story or within history.
So it made the plot point exciting and the story and the conflict was running parallel to history.
GC’s capture to Qing instead was merely “Yangban were captured – so she is going to be captured. She needs to get to Qing- so she will be kidnapped to Qing.”
Rather than it being properly integrated as I discuss properly in the essay.
Just wanted to add that example and comparison before I forgot about it again.
If I follow your logic, I could also say about the Ganghwa plot that is was just as illogical: “We have to show what happened on the island because you know, history….. so let’s send them there…but how?…oh, let’s have JH tell GC to go because we can’t think of any reason on how all 4 of them would end up on an island…and promise her that he will save her so he would have a reason to go also….and somehow he finds her dagger all the way in the manchu camp cause that is what manchu soldiers do, they collect daggers found on the beach… and thinks she is dead…but she isn’t….and he decides to go anyway even though he thinks she is dead…but he just happenes to see her in that particular moment in the forest….and he goes on and fights 17 freaking blood drinking soldiers…and she kind of sees him but….doesn’t, because he hides…all to be separated again and again…and more angst and mistrust….
The problem with getting kidnapped is…you don’t know you’re getting kidnapped, it just happens, so I don’t see how she could prepare us or to show anything about the 2 leads because the reason of the kidnapping has nothing to do with them but with the events in the history. So it was a paralel to the history of that moment and had the right to be introduced in the story just as well as the Ganghwa plot.
I guess.
I just felt that Ganghwa made more sense overall because Ganghwa was a place that refugees fled too and JH in trying to keep them safe sent them there too, because he knew that.
They ended up on the island because they needed some place safe from the war. So for me there was more narrative justification link is my argument.
She could always have not used kidnapping????
And I disagree there couldn’t have been a way to set that up smoother.
I don’t mind the dagger cos it’s a thematic motif.
If my example argument doesn’t land, then stick with my intiial one haha.
The kidnapping not having anything to do with them but ONLY history is EXACTLY my point. She’s telling a story too, set in history, not just history.
I’ve already argued my points about narrative interaction with history and the end result of this that the drama ends up at, in the main essay though so I won’t repeat them here.
I lost interest in the couple since a long time now. So in te first part, I liked it because they spend a lot of time separated.
But now, the writer wants to get them back and my issue is that I don’t like the characters when they’re together. I don’t buy their big love for each other. I don’t like how the characters act and the actors to be honest. I don’t like when Ahn Eun-Jin talks with this little voice that must be sounded as noble woman I guess. She’s far more interesting when she slapped the guy in the street.
They finally can spend time together and his first reaction is to lie about the gravity of his wounds… It’s not romantic but childish and stupid…
“…great disappointment, although not much surprise, at how far from grace what couldβve been my favourite drama of the year has fallen.”
Disappointment is putting it mildly.
I didn’t see the point of her getting married. She was financially independent, and since when did she care about her reputation and being an old maid? Just because women were suppressed in that era doesn’t mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.
Although the acting is excellent and the history fascinating, the sense of magic and hope I felt in part 1 vanished.
I remember clearly that she dreamed a lot about meeting her future husband. And that she even dreamed in episode 4 to be rescued by him. And to almost getting married in the first episodes. And so on and so on with her first “love”. Yes, she didn’t care about what people thought of her as long as she got what she wanted. She wanted a marriage to a noble dude, she got it and paid for it. Well, almost. And she was not that independent, she relied on her husband help and she probably felt that she owned him a lot for his help.
I don’t know if a married crown princess and all the advantages and protection that comes with that title is a fitting example. She was, after all, just a mere country daughter of a school.
Yes, he helped her, and she swallowed her pride and accepted it because she didnβt want to starve to death or her family.
They became business partners when she changed the forge into a successful business. The only thing he did was give her permission to use his family forge, and she did all the work. He was able to earn money from her ideas and hard work. She married him because she thought Jang Hyun was dead.
I agree that the crown princess has advantages, but as a mere country daughter (as you put it), her experience and talents helped feed and free some of her people.
How can common people not relate to that?
I thought that I made my point of why she did care about her reputation and being an old maid. And how much she wanted to get married. That’s why she got married, to secure her and her loved ones future. I don’t think those times allowed for a woman to be financially independent, as you put it. She was the one that clinged to that era’s morals and traditions. JH, on the other hand, didn’t and that is why she refused him even though she felt otherwise. I am sure some do not embrace the fact that here we have a FL not being the “feminist” we are used to in the recent dramas, but one that adheres to the rules of “patriarchy”. She doesn’t even question it. It is because of his love that she finds the courage to even ask for divorce. For me is one of the reasons I watched the show because is so uncommon in dramas these days.
“Just because women were suppressed in that era doesnβt mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.”
Sure, but the crown princess was married, LOL. Without her husband’s position she would not have had those accomplishments. How can common people relate to that? That she, unlike others, in fact did her job of protecting “her” people? Maybe. Maybe that is why GC married also, because she had a very good example that she could relate to. But then you don’t like the fact that GC got married…It just doesn’t make sense to me what you are trying to say.
You’d be surprised when you do research you’d find women in this era who were financially independent. Some were born from poor families or slaves in the gibang, etc.
“Sure, but the crown princess was married, LOL. Without her husband’s position, she would not have had those accomplishments.”
Are you for real?
Married or not, women looked up to her as the future mother of the nation. She was a complete woman with talents before she married the Crown Prince. She was put in a situation where she could utilize her abilities and show her love for her people, even with the drama diminishing her accomplishments. She is being shoved to the side so GC can be the one to get her hands dirty. (Historically, it was her idea to do farming to make money to buy their people who were sold in the slave market and send them home. She worked on the farm with her people and more.)
I can’t articulate my point correctly regarding GC’s marriage, so that’s on me. You can laugh at me for that.
@kiara
I thought that women could not own properties at that time, hence my statement. How could they have been truly independent in that era? I am not saying that they were not capable if allowed, because they were just as capable as women in our times.
You said that GC should have taken an example from her. In your words:
“Just because women were suppressed in that era doesnβt mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.”
Well, the crown princess was not that helpless. Nor suppressed, for that matter, because she was allowed to mingle in state affairs by her husband. Again, I am not saying that she was not a capable woman, but those were the times. She was not put in that position on her own, her husband was and she made the best of it. You gave her as an example for SINGLE women at that time to follow, that statement I have an issue with.
I am sorry to say but I do not share your enthusiasm for the couple since they did come from a privileged position. Sure, I see them in a better light than most, but I am not infatuated with them like you all are. Yes, they helped the captured people from Qing but they still came to be in that position in a country that suppresed most of its people back in Joseon. And I certainly do not see in good light his opening to foreigners influence as something positive and I see it as being a tool for quiet foreign invasion and economic pludgering later on. I very much support change that comes from within a country, that is real change. And I certainly do not share the introduction of foreign values and religion in another country, by force or by other clever means because that also introduces the economic control of that country later on.
And we did not know what they could truly would have accomplished once they took the throne, the compromises they would have had to make. The country was still ruled by the crazy fractions and they failed their first true test by not gather enough support or enough protection from the Qing.
Have you heard of Gim Man-deok? Read her story. She didn’t have to own a property to be independent.
Do we only relate to people like us?
I have a hard time explaining my thoughts in my 3rd language, and I’m tired. Maybe I’ll revisit your post later because you do have a lot of valid things to share, and I’m being defensive, too.
@kiara
I didn’t know about Gim Man-deok so I googled her and I could only find her wiki page in english, most were in korean, from which I found out that:
“She managed to achieve her position in Jeju thanks to the island’s egalitarian and matrifocal culture, where women had greater economic and social independence than the rest of the country, whose Neo-Confucian ideology enforced strong female repression.”
I don’t know if it is true since is wiki and I have no knowledge why in Jeju island women had more freedom. But my argument still stands when it comes to 17th century mainland Joseon, unless you meant that GC should have gone to Jeju island and be an independent single woman there at the end of 18th century.
But thanks for letting me know about Gim Man-deok, she was indeed a remarkable woman. I’ll see if I could find more info about her life and watch the drama about her.
Yes, we know. And the dream is still happening, she is almost at the beach where he has been waiting for her. He has always loved her, she had to do a lot of “running” to come to that conclusion.
But I was making another point to Kiara, the one that she always wanted to be a married woman and not an old maid.
About her marriage plot…
That is the whole story. A married woman finds love and hope after being captive and abandoned by her husband. It said so in all the synopsis, we just chose to ignore it.
Then we’re back to my first “essay” after 9+10 and how I think the writing of the show itself in the first half set up for something different from this professed plot and synopsis.
I also have a habit of thinking that just because a show thinks it should do something, doesn’t mean it actually should for the best story or for its characters. π
@sicarius
I am sorry that you see the show this way for some time now. For me it has many parallels with the world I grew up in and it has different meanings that I care and relate with.
You can be “back” to that essay, I certainly am not (and I do not belong in “the audience” you have been talking about in the second one, also). The first half set up the characters and the backstory for the main one. That you don’t like the main story, I understand. But to not get it at all, not so much, more so because I do enjoy how you write.
I “get” the main story you speak about fine.
I just don’t think it’s objectively good story telling, and I disagree that, whatever you think is the main story, should’ve been the main story, is all I guess.
But perhaps you can clarify more about what you mean here.
@sicarius
The marriage. You called it a subplot, something that was not needed among many, many other things. You wrote that “their entire relationship development shouldβve happened completely differently and with no GWTW and with no first husband”. The marriage is the whole point of the story, whether you like it or not, and is the point from which everything flows. And it didn’t follow GWTW in this aspect, the beginning did to hook us for the marriage and for what’s to come. And not the marriage per se, but the fact that she is/was a married woman and how she recovered and found love and hope in those cruel times, even if only for a short time if JH will end up dead, after being abandoned for reasons that she had no control of. You say that her capture is contrived and it was only to drive GC to JH. But if the marriage and the love she has even after her abandoment are the center point of the story, then I beg to differ. I can even say that the reason JH was sent to S city in the story to begin with is because GC was suppose to come there eventually to be abandoned and not the other way around.
I could go more in depth but time is not on my side. And there is really no need for because if you don’t get the marriage thing and think about it as a subplot still at episode 16 then you don’t get what this story is about.
I think the story should’ve been, imperatively, objectively, NOT the one we got.
I’ve written two essays to try and explain why. If you don’t get ME by that point, and think I still don’t get you (or the story apparently), that is what it is, but oh well. Thanks for participating in this thread anyway. 🖤
“Quoting the writer herself here:
She wanted to impose the βhope and beautyβ of GWTW onto this era of Korean history? What hope? What beauty? Where? ”
Hope that a lot of those women not only survived but found love. Hope that there were, even in those times, men like JH ( and Rhett Butler ) that went against the current and loved and cherished women considered “tainted” by society. And that is beautiful.
What hope can I take from the love story when it only intent on torturing them despite this? It doesn’t seem like it is really telling their love story but rather their failed love story. Their hope in love has transcended nothing so far.
And what beauty can I find in JH’s character when they refuse to develop him or his committment properly or provide him with coherent growth?
That IS beautiful, I agree, and I like that he has always stood up against that, yes, but the story has to be more than just saying that.
The execution should echo the message.
I don’t think it has achieved either of these things in a way that is truly satisfying narratively and right now only seems intent on killing any true hope it might pretend to profess.
I don’t think it is transcending is tragedy and I take issue with that.
Or for that matter, what hope in love do they actually have? The show hasn’t developed that, it’s spent 16 episodes of them walking round in circles lying to each other, even by the end of the stint in Qing; there is, as I have said, no true return.
If they made any progress at all it is both incoherent, and back to square one by the end of 16.
“In the end you are left wondering what the point in being invested in this couple is at all.”
Well said.
I too am feeling very, very fatigued of being “dragged” through the “angst, misery, pain p–n” and “continued repetitionΒ loop- with no pay off” whatsoever.Β We have watched over 16 hours without one honest conversation or any straightforward communication between our leads. I’m resigned to the fact that this is not first and foremost a romance. I only wish it had been clearer from the start then my expectationsΒ would not have been so high.Β
As much as I love watching both lead actors, maybe this would have been better as 16 episodes to get rid of a lot of frustrating crap that has deviated from the tighter first half of the show.Β
Third time trying to post for an apparently inappropriate word π
Hwaiting.
But the start had 3 intros, and two of them were literally all this imagery about the ROMANCE. I don’t think it’s entirely our fault for expecting different and more of this show.
Yes, p0rn is apparently now an IW, I had to search through almost all of my 4500 words to find the offending thing when first posting this lmao.
Hi, @sicarius, I am seeing your post this morning. It’s always good to have something to take as starting point for a commentary, so I do not feel insulted or anything of that sort. I want to study your argumentation in detail, which will take a while (currently my day life is extremely full). Thanks for the thoughtful and lengthy commentary.
MY DEAREST: ON GRACE IN TRAGEDY PART ONE: In Relation to the First Half of the show, specifically Episodes 9+10.
Posting for Archival Reasons. 05/09/23
Context:
And I just. I CANβT shake this feeling. As Miss Clavel would say, βSomething! Is not right!β
disclaimer: this is discussing hypothetical directions of the show, and thematic storytelling concepts, in light of what we have so far, in particular episode 10, and is *extremely* stream of consciousness, and so if it takes a meandering and circuitous route to get to my point, that is why. please bear with me. lol.
.
.
.
Iβm struggling here because I am wondering if what I expected from the show early on
If those expectations are unfounded. And if so, how unfounded.
If it ends with them dead (see: @elinorβs theory re. the dream)β¦
I don’t mind them being dead tbh, if the story gets there in the correct way, if all the narrative beats land, and the resolution feels satisfying and earned.
But I donβt feel like 10 succeeded in earning β¦ its direction, and its narrative choices.
Why?
I donβt mind the messy and flaws and the insecurities up until a point
But instead of the show returning on those, pushing that forward, taking those characters FARTHER
Itβs keeping them stuck there
And instead of following through with the OBVIOUS development here, that is staring you in the face from ep 1 through 3 (see: my episode 1 comment)
Instead it is to me dwelling on this βficklenessβ and βdoubtβ, essentially of both characters, whether you think either is or is not fickle, or whether either is justified in their doubts and the immediate reactions therein or notβthatβs not particularly important I donβt think — whatβs important is not the immediate reaction or actions of the characters, just as much as itβs not the immediate plot of the show either—– itβs the story itself, the writing, dwelling on these, and sort of revelling in that still not currently being resolvedβ¦ orβ¦ potentially never being resolved
And pushing that, that βrevellingβ as a central conflict itself instead
I donβt THINK Iβm unjustified in expecting something more from the show than this, in how eps 1 through 6 in particular went.
I would find it more interesting, and not just more narratively satisfying personally, but like actually objectively BETTER narratively, if instead of getting absorbed in that aspect of the characters, we went above and beyond their foibles and failings.
I donβt think this is the kind of story, or tragedy, if itβs going that way, that benefits from dwelling in constant mistake and upheaval.
There has to be some kind of release. Some kind of return. Small ones, episodically, and weekly, or rather than limiting it to that, small ones in terms of smaller internal arcs, and then bigger ones in terms of the overall show.
Iβm not saying erase the conflict altogether, or strip the nuance from the characters in case anyone gets confused by this. Thatβs not it at all.
What I mean is that β¦ in the essence of the archetypal story this isβ¦ in the essence of a grand sweeping stakes and high romance and war and death and tragedy and piningβ¦ (think big, back, deeper, removed) β¦
the eucatastrophe* of it all is almost imperative:
The character failings in this kind of show are classic tools to forward character DEVELOPMENT, not solely angst, to forward a growth, not a lack
Angst itself is not enough. You need to give your audience, and as much your characters, meaning behind that.
Ironically, I think itβs beginning to fail at that.
Not wholly, not yet, but I can see the cracks, and it failed at that for me in episode 10 at least
The angst this week⦠I guess I have to say this, hate to say it, but it actually felt MORE manufactured.
As Iβve said, I didnβt MIND it existing up until a certain point, because you canβt have character development without conflict, but if you only stay WITHIN the conflict,
Youβre essentially leading your audience and characters on forβ¦ no other reason than to lead them on.
Now weβre only half way, so we do need a conflict for the half way point, well β¦ debatably, depending on how you wanna structure your story and how closely you wanna stick to act rules (not always a fan myself)
which is why my original comment exists;
Id est I *could* be satisfied with the emotional point we ended up at this week, if only we got there differently
And thatβs what this comment is for, to explore what that βdifferentlyβ is that I am seeking
if just doing it differently with a different focus wouldβve worked, or if it needed/needs something else entirely
We also have to ask ourselves, where our characters will GO from here? And why?
And so NOW Iβm reassessing what I think this drama thinks it is, and where its going
If it actually knows, if it is sound in that, and if that is what I want it to be, or think it SHOULD, objectively, beβ¦
I also donβt think itβs especially relevant if her being married before was in original premise, or if β”this is what GWTW did thoughββ
Because I think I would still have the same reaction if Iβd watched with either of those frames of references
That is, a rejection of HOW itβs doing that and also in part a rejection of the WHY (or at least an implied greater why, given that weβre again, only at the half way mark)
.
To farther my earlier point about the revelling in conflict and irresolutionβ¦
Simultaneously in this show, somehow β¦ there is this idea of truly fated beings, of them trusting each other and putting their faith in each other and responding to each other in this very almost instinctual way, where what they say and what they do donβt line up, but that what they do is more importantβ¦
And then thereβs this idea of that being broken or betrayed or unfulfilled in some way, with the mistrust and the fighting and the need for security etc etc, but instead of that being broken as a tragedy or as something to be restored, itβs saying thatβ¦ itβs always been broken?
Which doesnβt line up to meβ¦
AND THEN
Thereβs fated and entwined, as I said, which we SEE, with this constant crossing over, and the dreams, and that inherent connection again
But he has been stripped and thrown to the wind
and their connexion constantly severed, again not as a tragedy or as something to be restored, in either case to release catharsis,
But as something that can only be constantly severedβ¦
Which again, β¦ doesnβt add up to me
As to WHY you would go that route
Instead of tragedy and or restoration route
What I mean by this is that a final tragedy imo doesnβt have to be this constant severing, this always broken
It can be, and it can be this constant spiral of missed opportunities and wrong decisions, but for that kind of tragedy to work, it has to be INEVITABLE-
(See: EXTRACURRICULAR. one day I will write about that show and about how it is a classic tragedy about the fall of man, but not today)
It has to be a kind of inescapable
and this inescapableness has to, itself, be inescapable, like there is NO OTHER OPTION and thatβs OBVIOUS.
This *points at show aggressively* is NOT unavoidable!
AND
I do not think that this story IS actually, or needs to be, or SHOULD be, THAT kind of TRAGEDY
And I donβt think even the dream, which is the strongest foreshadower of the future over anything, justifies it either, let alone anything else.
And if it is NOT the inevitable kind of tragedy,
Then it MUST be, it MUST be an βeucatastrophicβ* tragedy.
That feels like an oxymoron lmao Iβm so sorry Tolkien, I promise it makes more sense in my head:
*A eucatastrophe usually refers to an ending of a story, and a sudden turn of events that avoids impending doom. But here I use it mainly to mean smaller moments, internal eucatastrophes that make it all worthwhile; eucatastrophe as a process, and so a resolution with joy like sorrow, sorrow like joy.
(And I think this is in line with how Tolkien uses it and talks about it too β The Ring is destroyed, but the Shire is scoured and Frodo must pass into the West, etc.)
But do not mistake the foreshadowing for this^, for a eucatastrophe, either.
The foreshadowing is not enough to justify it being the inevitable kind of tragedy, and it is even less enough to justify it being THIS kind.
It would not be a true achievement of the kind of thematic storytelling I am talking about in its current state and direction.
it is missing some deeper understanding of what that sorrow like joy, joy like sorry, eucatastrophe means.
To be united in death, there must be hope in death BECAUSE of something, not because of nothing.
//
βTolkien coined the word eucatastropheβthe good catastropheβto express the reality of βa sudden and miraculous grace.β It gives the reader βa catch of breath, a beat and lifting of the heart, and a piercing glimpse of joy and heartβs desire.ββ[Read more]
AS A MOM who just had to edit a 500 word essay down to 250 and a 1000 word essay down to 500 for her son’s college apps, it’s taking everything that is in me to not edit your post right now! I don’t think I’m in the right headspace for this. LOL!
LOL please don’t this specific one was much messier and all over the place than my usual essays because my brain wasn’t working when I wrote it, so it’s supposed to be like that let it beeee 😂
HRH Status update:
Exhausted, physically, mentally, spiritually… ecumenically. etc
Evillive – Dropped. cbb
My Dearest – Behind. didn\’t have the internet, or the time, over the weekend to darkside lol
Worst of Evil – Ready for it to end
The Day/ The Kidnapping Day – Almost forgot I was watching this woops
Mad Dog/Hari x Minjoon Fangirling – Sooooooo behind
Other: Rewatching A:TLA, and finally started Spy x Family (which like, I read/am reading the manga, and then the show came out, and then I put off watching it because…??? anyway)
Ready: For a new wave of dramas to start to cure my boredom for three weeks before I drop them again 😂.
Ready: For a new wave of dramas to start to cure my boredom for three weeks before I drop them again 😂
I like your spirit. 😁 Should I do the same? Although I’m not sure I have the patience.
I dropped tons! Mostly shows that weren’t to my taste in the first place, but watched them anyway for some reasons (actors, boredom). KTL, DWY, BYT, Revenant, SYIM19thL, MD to name a few for this year only. now, looking back, I should’ve trusted my initial instinct.
Hahaha so you probably DO have my “patience”.
That’s basically all I do. Start for small reasons, 1 actor, boredom, lots of boredom, often know early I won’t like, drop when I have to. Etc. 😂
Oh you know, burnout, depression, anxiety, funerals, wisdom teeth… The usual.
Ecumenically is a reference and quote from Pirates of the Carribbean lmfao but I’m pretty sure I could also find a way to be tired ecumenically. I’m so well versed in it.
I do understand we have times when we are overwhelmed and feel cornered by life on all sides.
As human beings all we can do is to walk our way Through The Darkness and hope for our Daily Dose of Sunshine.
Hwaiting!!
Oh good that means skimming them shouldn’t be TOO painful… not sure I think I can skip them entirely yet. I’m worried at this rate though I’m just gonna ffwd the entire rest of the show 😅😅😅
Lmfao
Well I guess that was fun while it lasted. Me watching this without extensive use of the fast-forward button that is.
I was so bored during 8+9 my eyes were glazing over and then the writing got dumber and heralded the rest of the Four Horsemen of the Dropocalypse, and I still donβt know why anyone does anything in this show, yay.
The one small silver lining, is that I genuinely think JCW is doing very well here, and I enjoy watching him even more than WHJ.
Too bad I still donβt like the show, Wookieβ¦
I haven’t seen every single one of his performances since “Healer” so this isn’t a totally fair assessment, but for me, this is absolutely his best one in that time period. The show is all about his character going through an emotional wringer, and there are a ton of tight shots on his face (and for once, not just to show us how attractive it is) where he has to make this outrageous story look believable and poignant because we care about this guy. He’s truly impressive, especially since the writing leaves a lot of gaps, fails to establish a clear backstory, and is always more focused on how a scenes looks rather than how it feels or what it accomplishes.
But yeah, I wish the writing was better because with just a few tweaks and a better balance of scenes the show could have been really good.
I haven’t seen all of them either but I’ve seen enough and I agree with you.
💯💯👏👏
There were shots in 9 where he just glares bloody murder at Gichul after killing a corridor full of guys, and even though I thought that whole bloodbath scene was ridiculous and made no sense, and even though I was ffwding, I completely believed Wookie in that moment lol.
I think your summary is very apt in what is wrong with this show. I would add to it by saying I think its flaws are even more condensed under one idea, and that is that it’s basically a crash course failure in why establishing clearly defined character motivation is immensely important.
“and is always more focused on how a scenes looks rather than how it feels or what it accomplishes.”
Ugh, this. And it’s so annoying because there were glimpses of otherwise earlier on. Oh well. Typical. 😅
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 9, 2023 at 1:45 AM
Lololololol Silver + Tarnishing = Poison (Arsenic) at it again.
Congratulations Poison Theorists, youβre looking to be right.
And the Butterfly Norigaeβs absence WAS a plot point of convenience, ofc it was.
However, unfortunately whilst silver has the ability to detect arsenic
containing compounds, solid silver can only detect arsenic in sulphide forms:
https://journals.le.ac.uk/ojs1/index.php/jist/article/download/4320/3679
Itβs a fun trope anyway though.
The Story of Parkβs Marriage Contract #5
indyfan
December 9, 2023 at 8:52 PM
Ha ha. I was remembering the recap convo while watching. One for TeamPoison (if you don’t think too hard about it).
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 9, 2023 at 9:04 PM
Although in 6 it turns out my focus on him having a heart issue is also probably still right; both Tae Ha’s have health issues and both Tae Ha’s have step mothers or other people trying to kill them for their inheritance etc.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 10:54 PM
🍈 2023 ROUNDUP DAY SEVEN 🍈
7- The drama Beanies convinced you to watch and you canβt be grateful enough.
I was gonna be a killjoy again on this entry but Iβve been listening to Advent music all day so now I kinda donβt really feel like itβ¦ *blinks at self in shock*
No hay ninguna. Have a (mostly) unrelated song instead.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 5, 2023 at 11:20 PM
🍈 2023 ROUNDUP DAY SIX 🍈
6- The character that deserves a kimchi slap.
The My Dearest Writer-nim. She sure is a character alright.
redfox
December 6, 2023 at 1:10 AM
also the Destined With You writer.
and Heartbeat writer.
but please spare the kimchi. It is too expensive to make now, they raised the consumer tax 14%
I am paying 9 euros for a cabbage.
Cecee
December 6, 2023 at 4:18 AM
WHAT?! This is just plain outrageous. I’m getting my cabbage from either the local Asian shop or on market days, and it still ends up being cheaper to make my own kimchi batch rather than buying it pre-made. (OMG I sound so middle class, this is terrifying. I apologise profusely)
Only problem is that my fridge is now filled with kimchi jars. Good ol’ cabbage and also some radish kimchi (the radish one turned out even cheaper than the cabbage kimchi because nobody seemed to be buying those big radishes here so I could get 2 of those for under 1 EUR)
What vegetable would be most suitable for an affordable slap attack for Tallinn Beanies? I’m happy improvising and potato slapping them if needs be. Pretty sure a frozen potato in the face would be way more effective than a leaf of cabbage kimchi.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
December 6, 2023 at 6:02 AM
**whispers** We are all secretly middle-class penny pinchers and love you for this tip.
Cecee
December 6, 2023 at 6:08 AM
haha – outraged but must make it cost-effective!
What can I throw at them to express my displeasure CHEAPLY?
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
December 6, 2023 at 6:53 AM
Peels – potato peels, apple peels and cores, cucumber peels, banana peels … yeah so they can do vaudeville.
redfox
December 6, 2023 at 9:35 AM
banana peel slap, yes thats great
no potato peel we use these to clear chimney (if you burn them you get rid of the tar in the chimney) – more middle class tricks
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
December 6, 2023 at 9:46 AM
@redfox thank you for the chimney trick my friend. Right in time to welcome Santa. 🎅
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 10:55 AM
LOl this thread!!!!!
We have compost scrappings, I’m sure just tipping that over them would do that trick.
@CC nothing wrong with being middle class, don’t apologise!
@redfox, ooooh I’m going to ask dad if he knows about the chimney trick.
redfox
December 6, 2023 at 11:13 AM
@sicarius @seeker yeah, dry the potato peels first then burn them. this knowledge is inherited way back from greatgreatgramma. but also confirmed by a professional chimneysweeper.
and dried orange and mandarin peels are great for starting fire it is better than using paper since paper is actually bad for chimneys
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 9:59 PM
@redfox
The Queen’s Father: “dried as in dehydrated or like dried in the oven??”
redfox
December 7, 2023 at 6:36 AM
just air dried @sicarius
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 7, 2023 at 11:41 AM
@redfox AitΓ€h~
redfox
December 6, 2023 at 9:33 AM
um I think sometimes we have leftover iceberg lettuces half price. I also grow swiss chard myself in the basement. they grow excellently even in winter and in dark just that they turn out very light in color
Cecee
December 6, 2023 at 1:22 PM
Iβm learning so much here! Thank you @redfox
bbstl π§Ή
December 6, 2023 at 9:18 AM
Whoa, thatβs shocking! Then again, I paid $2 US for one not-giant russet potato two weeks ago 😮
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 10:57 AM
PLENTY of others for sure, yeahp
I didn’t watch Heartbeat lol.
But among those I find most annoying right now, MD writernim takes the cake.
I comisserate with you about food prices!!!
I don’t know how much cabbages are in NZ… Today is shopping day though so I will get back to you.
Cecee
December 6, 2023 at 1:22 PM
We await your cabbage news with excitement 🥬
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 9:55 PM
About $6 NZD for a head of cabbage right now, or 3.4 Euro.
But it is our summer which probably helps somewhat as prices are very seasonal here.
redfox
December 7, 2023 at 6:42 AM
yea I suppose our prices will fluctuate with seasons as well. some retailers did this, they lowered prices as much as possible before adding tax and now some places are rather reasonable. but some didnt care and just put the tax on top.
my moms an economist and she explains that raising taxes will not actually work in filling the budjet and they will have to raise them again – BECAUSE they raised them? I am not quite sure of the logic but it seems it is not a very good strategy so im hoping they will lower them back.
economy, so complicated
Cecee
December 6, 2023 at 4:10 AM
she’s not the only writer I’d kimchi-slap this year
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
December 6, 2023 at 6:04 AM
This one in particular because she made NGM apologize IRL but a lot of others too.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 6, 2023 at 10:53 AM
Neither tbh. My blacklist is quite long this year. But she’s the one I felt most like mentioning. 😂
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:52 PM
🍈 2023 ROUNDUP DAY FIVE 🍈
5- OTP you didnβt think you would adore.
The only good kdrama OTPs were crack OTPs that didnβt technically properly sail… or ones grossly underwrittenβ¦ ΰ² _ΰ²
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 4:36 PM
Alright,
@kas61, @lapislazulii, @mayhemf, @johnb
Here is my \”Tall People Club\” list- I haven\’t updated it in a while, but I thought I would share it and then use both my list, and yours, Kas, and do some more updating while I\’m at it. Don\’t really have anything better to do right now. Well I mean I could be watching The Goyreo Khitan War I guess.
or drawing the little voice at the back of my head saysAdded some tall ladies too, just a few as I haven\’t got their list as detailed yet, and yes, this is in metric mainly, hahaha.
As you can see I categorize by \”range\” and then have most of the heights and variants listed alongside.
185-186 Range:
Sung Hoon 185
Park Seo Joon 185
Lee Soo Hyuk (184, 185)
Ok Taecyeon (185, 186)
Ahn Bo Hyun (186)
Kim Dowan 186
Lee Jong Suk 186
Ji Soo 186
Kim Jae Young
Park Hae Jin
Chae Jong-Hyeop
187 Range:
Jang Ki Yong 187
Lee Jae Wook 187
Shin Seung Ho 187
Na In Woo (187)
Lee Min Ho 187
Song Won Seok
Kwak Si Yang
188-189 Range:
Go Kyung Pyo
Ahn Hyo Seop 187, 188
Koo Ja Sung
Cha Seung Won
Byeon Woo Seok (187, 189)
Ju Ji Hoon (187, 189)
Ahn Jae Hyun
Lee Jung Shin 188
Kang Hui/Hee 188
Nam Joo Hyuk (188)
Woobin
Sung Joon
KYK 188.5, (187)
Lee Taehwan 188, 189
Shin Sung Rok 188, 189
190 Plus Range:
Kwangsoo 189, 190, 192, 193, 194
Rowoon 190.5, (189, 190, 192)
Yoon Kyun Sang 191, 192
Lee Ki Woo 190, 192. 193
6β1 Range (185+-187.9)
6β2 Range (188-190)
6β3 Range (190-193)
6β4 Range
Ladies:
Hong Jin-Kyung (180)
Lee Da Hee (176, 5β9)
Jung Ho Yeon (176)
Lee Sung Kyung (175, 176)
β
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 4:40 PM
Unlike some people 👀🤭 I LOVE lists.
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 8:16 PM
I LOVE lists too, Sic! Thanks for this.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:13 PM
Hahaha! You’re welcome.
Blue (@mayhemf)
December 4, 2023 at 4:42 PM
Ah the imperial to metric switch. Having used both for equal amount of years, I still need to recalibrate. Itβs just disorienting. Unless I am drunk when everything is perfectly aligned.
Only recently I realized Shin Hae-Sun was tall.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 4:48 PM
Lmao!!!! My dad was more affected by the switch than I ever have been – but I tell you where it does come up – in writing, writing distances and measurements in metric just feels WRONG. Imperial all the way for writing. And the more obscure the better. Fathoms, leagues, stone, chains? Yeah.
Metric was better for this because it was more useful in noting the variations, and also for creating more categories. There are more centremetres than inches etc.
Kas61
December 4, 2023 at 5:13 PM
Imperial has some wonderful words. As you note above, and also “hands” for horses, and others…
I’ve been in a metric society for most of my life but height only feels meaningful to me in feet and inches, after all this time.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 5:23 PM
I know lots of places that whilst they still use metric in general, height will still be feet and inches haha.
lapislazulii
December 4, 2023 at 4:45 PM
ooooh thank you Sic! I’m going to have fun “working” through this list and being like ‘ohh’ and ‘ahhh’ and ‘oh?’ (idk how else to describe what me ‘working’ through a list looks like). Will start off with one right off the bat – Chae Jong-Hyeop is not as tall as I thought!!! Like he’s quite tall but I thought he was taller!
Looking forward to also seeing what the consolidated & updated list looks like 👀
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 4:52 PM
This entire list is above 6 foot, so no, still pretty tall! We’re just used to beanstalks and models being actors because it fits the look lol. The average height for men in Korea is about 174.5 cm (5 ft 8+1β2 in).
lapislazulii
December 4, 2023 at 5:41 PM
true am I tall-ness desensitised? desensitised to tall-ness? too used to seeing beanstalks that somehow 6’1 I’m like mmm yeah could be taller 😂
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 6:00 PM
😂😂😂 lmao I think we totally do forget how tall over 6’1″ is!!! like … my uncle and cousin are 6’4″… and they are TALL.
HopefulRomantic π¦ Tigermoth β¨οΈπ
December 4, 2023 at 7:06 PM
I totally get that @lapislazulii and @sicarius… I admit to being surprised by some of this list, and I think it’s because of perspective… I was under the impression that a goodish number of these men were under 6 feet tall, and thought they were of “average” height. But that’s because they are in dramas with other very tall men!!!! A veritable forest of giants!!! Lol they just seem average by comparison/perspective 😂 It would really be obvious in dramas if they threw in some civilians for comparison, like how you put a quarter next to a piece of hail to take a picture of how big it is LOL
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 7:13 PM
@hopefulromantic a lot of extras and secondary characters are more typical in height tbh. And remember, they frame things a lot so they don’t always LOOK “tall”, as in kiss scenes 😂
zindigo
December 5, 2023 at 6:44 AM
Comment was deleted
zindigo
December 5, 2023 at 6:39 AM
I apparently have the same desensitization. When I saw Rowoon’s height my immediate thought was, “He’s only 6’3″?!”
Blue (@mayhemf)
December 4, 2023 at 4:45 PM
Jun Ji Hyun Is tall too right?
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 4:49 PM
Jun Ji Hyun is on my list but farther down, around about the 5’8″ / 173 range and section for the ladies.
I just shared the top four I have listed because I haven’t done the formatting and research properly yet.
Kas61
December 4, 2023 at 5:11 PM
Interesting! What would you say would be the most reliable source, or do you include a variety?
Of the woman, I always thought Jung Yoo-jin looked really tall in everything I saw her in, but Wikipedia says she’s 5′ 8″ (172cm)
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 5:27 PM
I don’t think I take one. I think I look across them all and either list the discrepancies or take an average, or the one most mentioned, yes.
For Rowoon, I took what he said in interview haha, and listed the other heights he’s been given in brackets, for example.
I think we have to think about what is common and relative for us too. 5’8″ is tall for a women in most places. And the Dutch ofc will skew any perception in proximity 🤭 when they’re the exception.
I don’t have her on my list of Ladies though, so I’ll add her.
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 5:42 PM
Yoon Kyun Sang is a K-giant. I miss fangirling over Moo-hyul. ❤️
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 6:01 PM
He really is! I miss him, where is he! (More incentive for me to watch Nokdu Flower, come on Sic, it’s not that hard to start is it…)
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 6:11 PM
I don’t know. 😔
Did you drop SFD? There is more of him there.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 6:12 PM
No, I didn’t “drop it”. I need to restart it…
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 6:15 PM
Well, DO IT.
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 8:16 PM
Last time I watched him was in Class of Lies, then I saw Lee Joon Young in May I Help You and I was startled that he was quite tall! (185) He looked like a baby beside YKS in CoL! 😄 Good casting for a teacher for trouble making boys.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:12 PM
But tbh almost everyone looks baby next to him haha
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:41 PM
Yes, especially now that he is much more muscular and intimidating than 10 years ago 😄
Isa is always time travelling
December 5, 2023 at 2:20 AM
But keep in mind that in Nokdu Flower he only has a cameo role.
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 8:20 PM
One of the fun parts of Faith for me was hitting pause whenever he and Lee Min Ho were in the same frame and laughing my head off. 😆 He is so much taller than LMH, and he was quite thin back then. Of course the director took care not to put them near each other but it did happen a few times.
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 9:12 PM
FAITH had a few tall guys in it. Lee Min-ho, Yoon Kyun Sang, Philip Lee 6.2, Sung Hoon 6.1, Park Yoon-jae 6.0.
Poor Ryu, the Goryeo king, was only 5.4
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:16 PM
Not related but I’ve just remembered someone I’ve forgotten. How is Yoo Ji Tae not on this list yet!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:22 PM
Y’all who is LYING. Some sources say 186.5 but he’s taller than Nam Joo Hyuk who is 188?? (I didn’t watch all of Vigilante for nothing come ON)
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 9:23 PM
Jung Woo-sung oppa is 6.2, and Zo In-sung too. I wasn’t sure if they count since they are mostly in Chungmuro.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:26 PM
@kiara anybody counts!
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 9:31 PM
Cha Seung-won 6.2, Binnie (Hyun Bin) is 6.1
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:37 PM
Cha Seung Won is on the List already. Hyun Bin was on Kas’ list and I’ll add him but only after I verify he is indeed most listed as 6’1″ and not closer to 6’0″ 🤣🤣
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:37 PM
I tend to think Yoo Ji Tae’s height is more accurate. I would doubt a young actor with an army of fangirls more than an established one 😆
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:46 PM
But is he 188 or 186.5 @midnight… they actually can’t decide on him either 😆
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:55 PM
In Vigilante Yoo Ji Tae has a good inch on NJH, but NJH isn’t standing up straight and I can’t really determine what their shoes are like in the scene I am thinking of.
One NJH record says 187. If he really is 186/187, that would put YJT about 188/189, which I think feels right. Ofc, they could both be shorter still… 🤭
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:55 PM
😆😆 Seriously, military records it is.
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:34 PM
Whatever Ryu lacks in height he more than makes up for with charisma 🥰🤤
bong-soo
December 4, 2023 at 6:49 PM
Sic, may I nominate for inclusion at 6β2 around 188: Shin Hyun Soo whose height was accented in TWELVE NIGHTS (2018) (Viki US) where he played a contemporary dance
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 6:59 PM
Oooh thank you! I’m surprised I don’t have him, even in my drafts. I’m getting more of a 6’1″ range though when I look him up (186.5, 187)…
I have a couple of others I need to add but can’t find ANY height for 😭
Kurama
December 4, 2023 at 9:28 PM
Height is a complicate topic in Korea.
The celebrities between 175-180 tend to lie by adding centimeters. They add soles in their shoes, so it’s hard to know just by watching.
The celebrities between 190+ tend to lie by removing centimers. 190 and + is a taboo 🤣
In Kdrama, the way they filmed doesn’t help neither. The actresses often walk on boxes to make them higher compared with their costars.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 9:34 PM
I knowwwww, it’s so frustrating for my archival brain that wants neat numbers easy to document 🤣🤣🤣
Kurama
December 4, 2023 at 11:22 PM
All you have to do is go to Korea and measure them yourself! 😁
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:43 PM
“Excuse me sirs, m’adys, yes this is for very important science…”
Kurama
December 5, 2023 at 12:17 AM
You can tell them that is an Ikea TOC.
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:48 PM
Or hack the military records…
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:53 PM
🫡 On it. Thing 1 and Thing 2, get ready for deployment!
Kurama
December 4, 2023 at 11:29 PM
Kim Taek (26.12.98) who acted in The King’s Affection is taller than 188cm (dramawiki reference).
I remember in the BTS scenes, Rowoon said it was his first time he acted with someone taller than him :p
So he’s more about 192cm.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:44 PM
FasCINAting. *Adds*
Midnight
December 4, 2023 at 11:53 PM
Or Rowoon is less than what is recorded. I always tend to doubt the more famous ones more 😄 .
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:58 PM
Well as you can see, even his recorded varies a lot… or he lied in interview also hahaha.
He is VERY tall though. Like you can tell he is taller than most people on this list. *shrugs* *if he is shorter he’s closer for me to punch though…*
Kurama
December 5, 2023 at 12:06 AM
When he had back issues (disk), he couldn’t work anymore. So when he was feeling better, he showed his medical record on his Instagram and we could see his height, so I think the 190.5 came from there.
Midnight
December 5, 2023 at 12:08 AM
😆 I love imagining you punching Rowoon. And now Song Kang too? Haven’t seen him in anything so no comments yet
Kurama
December 5, 2023 at 12:00 AM
No, Rowoon is really 190.5. He was lying by saying 189cm when he debuted. He told during Knowing Bros, that the number 190 scares people even if technically, it’s just 1cm longer.
Midnight
December 5, 2023 at 12:09 AM
Very interesting. This actually makes sense of Kim Taek lying too.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 5, 2023 at 12:04 AM
He seems to be one where finding any recorded height is hard, I have a few of those. But fortunately we have additional information here to help us haha.
Do you have any pics of him in KA? Or a link to the BTS? I don’t remember him at ALL.
Kurama
December 5, 2023 at 12:14 AM
He was Prince Wonsan, brother of Lee Hyun acted by Nam Yoon-Soo who is pretty tall too (186).
https://youtu.be/VRM12mvcnKs?feature=shared&t=194
kiara
December 5, 2023 at 9:47 AM
Gang Dong-won 186
Ahn Jae-hyun 186
Cho Jin-woong 185/186
Choi Jin-hyuk 186/187
Midnight
December 5, 2023 at 12:09 PM
Sic, Yoo Min Kyu, the second male lead from Deserving of the Name, is cited as 188 cm. I suddenly remembered that he was quite taller than Kim Nam Gil.
Kurama
December 7, 2023 at 2:19 AM
Other names for your list :
– Choo Yeong-Woo (05.06.1999) : 186cm
– Jung Gun-Joo (26.05.1995) : 187cm
– Kim Jae-Won (09.02.2001) : 186cm
The young generation is tall :p
–
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 12:34 AM
🍈 2023 ROUNDUP DAY FOUR 🍈
4- The drama you loved and Beanies hated / The drama Beanies loved and you didnβt.
[a] I am the *only* person I know that found Black Knight entertaining more than anything else lmao. I am perfectly aware of everything wrong with it, donβt worry. Others found it boring, stupid, nonsensical, you name it. And I canβt blame them, honestly. I wonβt defend it. But I for one had a grand olβ time bingeing it. Explain that one, will you. 😅😅😅
(also Primary x Tablo OST? Donβt mind if I do)
[b] As usual, a lot.
I donβt really know if my perception of βBeanieβs Loved Itβ is accurate, and many are probably more realistically ~ 50/50 ~ in how people felt about them, but whatever.
I modified the wording of this half, because whilst I did straight up hate some of these, others, although they arenβt quite blacklisted, I sure didnβt LOVE them or even really like them as a whole enough either for any reason.:
Island
Love to Hate You
My Perfect Stranger/ You Who I Met By Chance
Tale of the Nine Tailed 1938
See You In My 19TH Life
Bloodhounds
Celebrity
Moving
My Dearest
Destined With You/ Rowoon in general
Fake it Till You Make it (CDRAMA)
Vigilante
My Lovely Liar
Hidden Love (CDRAMA)
Call it Love
Into the Ring
Rookie Historian Goo Hae Ryung
King the Land
Twinkling Watermelon
Castaway Diva
The Day/ The Kidnapping Day
Daily Dose of Sunshine
Ray of Light (CDRAMA) (only know three people who watched this but I was still the odd one out regarding it so!)
Arcane (actually I didnβt like any of the newer occidental shows I watched this year and this is not a drama but I definitely didnβt love this in particular as much as everyone else did so on the list it goes!)
Thereβs a bunch of shows in general I completely tuned out of the general consensus on, or forgot the public opinion of, so I quite possibly added shows that shouldnβt be here, or didnβt add others that do qualify.
KMoon is stuck in the Joseon era
December 8, 2023 at 7:54 AM
I loved Black Knight! Maybe I was too entranced with Kim Wu Bin’s constant frowning, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
also: why do guys look hot when they frown?
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM
I found a kindred spirit! Lmao! I thought I was the only one!!! 🤣🤣🤣
It was very entertaining to watch him murder model walk everywhere with a gun kekeke
KMoon is stuck in the Joseon era
December 8, 2023 at 12:11 PM
oh yeah. he has the perfect eyebrows for frowning. they were MADE for frowning. LOL his entire bone structure was made for frowning. he should never smile EVER.
(except to smile at Shin Min A, they’re perfect together!)
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM
he has a nice smile though!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 3, 2023 at 11:28 PM
🍈 2023 ROUNDUP DAYS ONE, TWO, THREE 🍈
1- Female lead you will never forget (for better or worse).
2- Male lead you will never forget (for better or worse).
Iβm going to be honest, even of the few shows that I didnβt hate, and even among the shows I disliked! I donβt think any of the leads really stood out enough to me to be super sticky. Not like some years. Uri Skunk-nim is *perhaps* the closest?
Look, no, the fact I had to actually RACK my brain for any other entry means I donβt think anyone really qualifies. It says βNEVER FORGETββ¦ ☠🪦
3- Side character that stole the drama.
The Donkey from Joseon Attorney? Lol. Yikes gotta draw the new additions to the Royal Menagerie too, donβt I, scheiΓe. (If I immortalise 🦨 in drawing form, perhaps then he can make the cut for the above categories.)
Anyway, I mean Iβm bias but. Petition for Bead Boy aka LEE JAE KYUN to get a lead role already.
[a. See You in My 19th Lyfe
b. Song of the Bandits
c. Tell Me You Love Me]
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 3, 2023 at 11:01 PM
🍈 MELONIA CURRENT COMPLETE 2023 TELEVISION WATCHLIST 🍈
ORIENTAL:
1. The Forbidden Marriage
2. Island (Season 1)
3. Hi Venus CDRAMA (2022)
4. Crash Course in Romance (Dropped Ep 12)
5. Meet Yourself CDRAMA
6. Can We Be Strangers Again? (Dropped Ep 4)
7. Our Blooming Youth
8. The Blood of Youth CDRAMA
9. Love to Hate You
10. Call It Love
11. Into the Ring (2020) (Dropped Ep 5)
12. Road Home CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 2)
13. Remembrance of Things Past CDRAMA (2021)
14. Oasis (Dropped Ep 1)
15. NigeHaji/We Married As A Job JDRAMA (2016)
16. Nothing But You CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 12 of 38)
17. Joseon Attorney: A Morality
18. Borah! Deborah!
19. Stealer: The Treasure Keeper/Skunk
20. Family (Dropped Ep 1)
21. WATCHER (2019)
22. You Who I Met By Chance / My Perfect Stranger
23. Tale of the Nine Tailed 1938 (Dropped Ep 2)
24. Black Knight
25. Rookie Historian Goo Hae Ryung (2019) (Dropped Ep 3)
26. Ashes of Love CDRAMA (2018) (Dropped Ep 2.5)
27. Delightfully Dysfunctional
28. I Want to Resign Every Single Day CDRAMA 2022
29. Bloodhounds
30. See You in my 19th Life (Dropped Episode 8)
31. King the Land
32. When I Fly Towards You CDRAMA
33. Hidden Love CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 11)
34. Celebrity
35. Ray of Light CDRAMA
36. Useless Lies (probable Dropped Ep 6)
37. First Responders S2 (Dropped Ep 4)
38. My Dearest
39. The Killer is Also Romantic CDRAMA 2022
40. Moving (Dropped Ep 3)
41. You Are Desire CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 11/12)
42. Destined With You (Dropped Ep 4)
43. My Journey to You CDRAMA (Dropped Ep 3)
44. Fake it Till You Make It CDRAMA
45. The Day/ The Kidnapping Day
46. Song of the Bandits
47. Twinkling Watermelon (Dropped Ep 6)
48. The Worst of Evil
49. Evilive (Dropped Ep 2)
50. SPY X FAMILY S01 ANIME (2022)
51. Castaway Diva
52. Moon That Rises in the Day (Dropped Ep 2)
53. Daily Dose of Sunshine
54. Vigilante
55. The Goryeo Khitan War
56. The Deal (probable drop @ Ep 1)
57. The Story of Parkβs Marriage Contract
58. Boyhood (probable drop @ Ep 1)
59. Tell Me You Love Me
60. Secret Playlist
61. Welcome to Samdaldri
OCCIDENTAL:
62. Arcane (2021)
63. Outer Banks S01, 02, 03
64. The Night Agent
65. The Night Manager (2016)
66. The Recruit (Dropped Ep 7)
67. The Diplomat (Dropped Ep 2)
68. XO Kitty
69. Only Murders in the Building S01, Dropped S02, Ep 6 ish.
70. Avatar: The Last Airbender (Rewatch)
.
.
.
Classification Notes:
Italicised is Currently Watching.
Bold, Completed.
Standard, Dropped.
I typically classify 2023 dramas as any drama that has the majority of its run time in 2023.
Therefore, THE BLOOD OF YOUTH is a 2023 drama, and technically, THE GORYEO KHITAN WAR will be a 2024 drama, although if I drop it this year, weβll probably class it as a 2023 drama anyway.
For situations like this, or ones that are split half/half, I decide arbitrarily, based on whatever I feel like.
I wasnβt supposed to watch a similar number of shows this year as last year, but on the other hand we did set a new finished CDRAMA record of a vast sum total of 7, which makes all the difference.
This is almost the same amount of CDRAMAs as I have watched previously total, so is in fact quite the personal achievement. 😂
☠ Official Stats and 2023 Royal Bean Count to come on December the 31st. ☠
Midnight
December 3, 2023 at 11:10 PM
You have been curiously quiet this year considering the impressive list you have accomplished, my friend.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 12:04 AM
🙃🙃🙃
kiara
December 4, 2023 at 9:31 AM
We had these many dramas? Thank you for this; I feel the K-drama fatigue and only completed 3 or 4 dramas for the beans.
My new year resolution is to try more new dramas, even fast food dramas.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 4, 2023 at 11:27 AM
Er. Yeah. Although tbh it didn’t feel like it half the time, cos often I felt like both there was nothing to watch and nothing airing that interested me… 😅
“My new year resolution is to try more new dramas, even fast food dramas”
Oh no hahaha. Having done this inadvertently for two years I’m not sure it will be worth it but hwaiting!
kiara
December 5, 2023 at 6:24 PM
I don’t know any of the newer actors because I don’t watch any new dramas.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 5, 2023 at 6:56 PM
eh. are you really missing that much…
kiara
December 5, 2023 at 7:47 PM
Yes :(.
I only found Roh Yoon-seo to be the new one who caught my attention.
KMoon is stuck in the Joseon era
December 8, 2023 at 7:57 AM
DANG I was proud of myself for hitting 50 kdramas, with maybe a handful of dropped ones! LOL
I have zero patience left for western shows, except for 4 comfort shows that I have on an endless loop.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 8, 2023 at 11:23 AM
That’s still a lot! You probably dropped less than me. There will be people with way more than me in the bean count too for both of us to be shocked at lol.
For the first 6 years I watched dramas I didn’t watch anything Occidental pretty much haha.
I’ve watched a few more of later years?? Although not many, but they almost always disappoint me in extremely inevitible and predictable ways haha.
Out of more sheer boredom than anything else I tried more than usual this year, and don’t worry, I had little patience for most of them too LMAO.
But to be honest, my run with kdramas is hardly any better overall so.
KMoon is stuck in the Joseon era
December 8, 2023 at 12:12 PM
I admire your detailed account as to which ep the shows were dropped!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
December 8, 2023 at 2:40 PM
I date everything and diary frequently 🤣🤣🤣
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 26, 2023 at 6:09 PM
Too bad the rest of the show can’t pack as much punch as two single shots of an archery thumb ring…
The Goryeo-Khitan War 5+6 Part 2
Snow Flower
November 27, 2023 at 12:04 PM
I am debating if I should start this drama.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 27, 2023 at 1:21 PM
It’s a very straightforward serious sageuk. Doesn’t muck around. But it’s almost too straightforward and I find it hard to enage with.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 26, 2023 at 6:06 PM
Unfortunately, I can’t rate a lot of this show very highly, but I did like how these two scenes were shot, framed and in the case of the first one, lit.
The Goryeo-Khitan War 5+6 Part 1
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 2:14 PM
Oh for crying out loud.
Double amnesia plot, return of the red string of fate in the bloody last episode, and you didnβt even kill him? Fxxk off.
So youβre also not even actually any kind a tragedy, let alone a failed one. Just fantastic writing guys, f a n t a s t i c. Yeah, Iβm mad they DIDNβT die, you read that right.
Lying little beast of a waste of time.
Bye and Good riddance.
My Dearest #21
Kodra
November 18, 2023 at 2:50 PM
🤣🤣🤣
If she is the nine tailed fox then sure he is the nine lives cat 😜
They are perfectly matched.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 3:24 PM
I meant thematically, they should be dead, but yeah physically too 🙄🙄🙄
Kodra
November 18, 2023 at 4:59 PM
My little joke didn’t work, I see…I would send a box of melonia if I could but I guess that would not lift the spirits of our Queen also…
Should I kill them for you? I am no sicarius material, but for you I could try. 🤣
But seriously, I am happy it ended, I have been obsessed for months by it and from what I gather, you still were until the very end, even for oposite reasons. It’s only a freaking kdrama, nothing to be mad about. 🤣
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 7:41 PM
You can do it. I believe in you. For your quest: 🗡️🗡️🗡️🗡️🗡️
… Ok. 👍
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:11 PM
🛡️🛡️🛡️🛡️🛡️
Also a few βshieldsβ from counterattacks.
Kodra
November 19, 2023 at 3:55 AM
@seeker
I think I can handle GC with what you guys are offering, but with JH I will need more than that to survive. 🤣 Maybe a grenade or automatic machine gun, but….even those will probably induce another amnesia and I will not make it alive, I am afraid. 🤣🤣🤣
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 19, 2023 at 4:18 AM
@Kodra maybe you need to use a 🌹 and a 😉 to slay him. A fan might be useful too.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:10 PM
I am glad, relieved, satisfied and happy it ended.
I would be happy with that sunset even if it was in their imagination.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:09 PM
I donβt disagree technically but 🤣 cβmon the double twist amnesia – have we seen it before, like ever??
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 11:24 PM
We should’ve left it at never having seen it, ever.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 11:30 PM
It feels like the makjang twist we never knew we needed. 🤣
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 11:34 PM
I really wish I had it in me to laugh more at this/shitpost this but alas.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 11:59 PM
Take your time to process.
We will eagerly await your comments at the recaps.
Till then, I can’t even count the buckets of tears that MD made me shed – even to fill a couple of lakes – for this.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 19, 2023 at 11:52 AM
Oh I’ve already processed
… lmao.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:07 PM
🤣 🤣 🤣
Kodra you were right about the writer having the last laugh.
I do believe the saying is βhe who laughs last laughs longestβ and here we have many someones laughing all the way to their banks. 🏦 💸
Kurama
November 18, 2023 at 3:04 PM
I didn’t believe they use the amnesia card again… It’s like a switch at this point.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:13 PM
I couldnβt even 🤣 🤣 🤣 what β¦ where β¦ what just happened β¦!!
kiara
November 18, 2023 at 4:24 PM
What the what? I haven’t started 20 yet.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 7:42 PM
*sssighh*
kiara
November 19, 2023 at 12:13 PM
I went looking for Qing dramas. LOL
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 18, 2023 at 9:14 PM
Enjoy the drama at your own pace. We will wait for you at the recaps.
Snow Flower
November 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM
I am still on Episode 17. Should I finish the drama or just rewatch Chuno?
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 18, 2023 at 7:40 PM
Bro. Just rewatch Chuno. 🫠
Snow Flower
November 26, 2023 at 8:12 PM
I did finish Episode 21. It did not make much sense, but I was curious, plus the music was good. Now I need to rewatch Chuno and Nokdu Flower to get my coherent ending fix.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 26, 2023 at 10:52 PM
You brave soul haha. No it didn’t make sense at all haha.
I downloaded Nokdu this year. Hopefully I’ll get to it someday soonish…
spazmo
November 19, 2023 at 1:42 AM
i swear, at some point in ep 21 – nam goon min, while crying seemed to have that “i can’t believe i have to do this” look on his face, if only just for a fleeting second…
did i hear correctly that they “extended” the series and we got this 90 minute episode 21?
i agree, they should’ve been killed off cuz this ending made no sense…
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 19, 2023 at 11:52 AM
Yes they extended it.
And yes, this ending makes no sense.
Then again, not much of the last 13 episodes has been truly justified or made sense either, so.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 3, 2023 at 4:36 PM
MOON THAT RISES IN THE DAY SH🌜TPOST:
AKA Why is there a wakizashi in bloody Three Kingdoms Korea.
Although I think The Battle of Hastings is honestly funnier in terms of the whole losing side revenge shenanigans, and also more equivalent to the anachronistic weapons time difference… I donβt get to make a Welsh Longbowman joke, so, in tribute to my Celtic roots, weβll stick with this (and also Iβm not looking up Norman French.)
@minniegupta1 for you 🫰
.
.
.
Minnie
November 3, 2023 at 6:14 PM
I will never forget a glock in Agincourt hahahahaha!!
Minnie
November 3, 2023 at 6:19 PM
Thank you for writing this up! Loved it LOL!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 3, 2023 at 11:31 PM
You’re welcome! Lmao!
emsel
November 4, 2023 at 6:46 AM
I thought this was extract from some book and was late to realize it is your own joke😂😂😂
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 4, 2023 at 12:48 PM
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Lmfaoooo
It’s a shame dB doesn’t allow centred text because I actually wrote this in formal script formatting to be extra extra also 😂
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 7:57 PM
The hell is that doing in Silla. Get it out. They didn’t look like that yet. -_-
And you’re like. 1000 years too early for that specifically. Yikes.
#JustHerefortheSillaFlashbacks-butprobablynotformuchlonger aka Moon That Rises in the Day Ep 2
kiara
November 2, 2023 at 9:02 PM
*sigh* cable sageuks.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 9:39 PM
+1
It’s worse because they had some more accurate ones in the battle. Even if the battle itself was also inaccurate… 👀🙄
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
November 2, 2023 at 10:13 PM
Is it all about money, honey?
Lazy storytelling, lazy prop / costume department.
Don’t do things you cannot justify.
Low budget is one thing, lack of care is another.
Kurama
November 3, 2023 at 12:23 AM
I didn’t like the first 2 episodes because of the story telling.
He can read modern Korean? As a ghost he learnt it? Or he has the knowledge of the body? Nothing was very clear…
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 3, 2023 at 12:26 AM
It was bad. My recap comment dragging it, is already written and I’m sad it’s gonna get cut up by the new commenting layout cos I don’t think I can get it under 3000 characters 🤣
Personally, I think it would be ten times funnier if he couldn’t read hangul at all.
Kurama
November 3, 2023 at 12:33 AM
I’m excited to read it! 😁
When he read “his” name in the elevator, I was like What?! Hangul was invented after your death! But the show didn’t adress it…
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 3, 2023 at 1:02 AM
You and I were twins in that moment ahahaha because I thought almost the exact same thing. I suppose it could be part of the body’s “memory” but… 🙄 (this is also in the comment dw)
Blue (@mayhemf)
November 3, 2023 at 2:32 AM
It was just convenient saying he can read both the dead persons memories. So we just have to assume he knows everything Joon Oh knew. So he can be modern. They just killed all the fun in having a 1500 year old ghost in a modern body.
Dorotka
November 3, 2023 at 6:16 AM
No, this probably is not a show for saguk lovers…
I guess I’m enjoying it so far, because I started it on a whim, with no prior knowledge, only remembering words webtoon, revenge, firewoman as bodyguard… and Kim Youngdae (of course ☺️).
β‘Peach_Mochiβ‘
November 3, 2023 at 8:39 AM
Same! Iβm expecting lots of plot armor and for the KYDβs character to have whatever amount of current knowledge suits the exact scene heβs in β consistency be damned. But Iβll keep watching β maybe while folding laundry β for him, Pyo Ye-Jin and the poor, beleaguered manager.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 3, 2023 at 11:56 AM
I’m impressed you missed anything to do with it. That’s like the exact opposite of me.
O’ve been following this show for a year because I will lap up any news of anything to do with Silla. Unfortunately I could tell pretty early on I wasn’t going to like it lmao, and all my red flags then were pretty accurate. 😂😂😂
Dorotka
November 4, 2023 at 3:33 AM
😂😂
I usually try to know just a bare minimum about the upcoming shows, skimming through the DB news and premiering shows, hardly ever watching the trailers… and then my goldfish memory working, especially for shows not on my priority list, like this one 😁
I totally understand your disappointment as a saguk lover, and I always admire you (and kiara and others) for your extensive history knowledge. Moon will clearly be a webtoon mess. 😁 I will see next week wether I’m still in the mood and continue… or drop.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 4, 2023 at 12:54 PM
I think I’m all or nothing, really depends on the show hahaha.
I didn’t have much hope of it being serious in its fake sageukness tbh, but sigh, I’ll do anything for 3 Kingdoms crumbs anyway.
Idk about extensive, I learn a lot on the fly, enjoyment of it though
yes HAHA but thank you.
Hwaiting!!!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 1, 2023 at 6:47 PM
Do they know lol. That he can’t*.
But even so, take me back to Silla dammit. Iβll take *that any day over wondering how youβre gonna pull off a romance with a creepy obsessed ghost in a
convenientlydead manβs body!#JustHerefortheSillaFlashbacks aka Moon That Rises in the Day Ep 1
emsel
November 2, 2023 at 9:32 AM
😂😂😂 Kdramas can pull of romance even with a rock (This ML here is proof of that because he can’t emote, but lots of beanies enjoyed Shooting Stars).
Also, even with good actors you quit dramas halfway, so why start this drama? If anything the FL will be hard carrying the show.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 11:49 AM
I would argue it’s debatable whether or not they actually can and DO pull such things off.
People enjoying them and them getting made is not proof of being well made or well written romances 🤭🤭🤭
You know why I started this drama. I haven’t exactly been quiet about it lmao. It’s also right there in the post.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 11:59 AM
Oh and my issue here is actually pulling off a retroactive redemption romance with the ghost in possession of a literal dead body, who also wants to kill her, because there is nothing at all romantic about that for me and there’s probably not ever going to be and I can see no way in which this will end well. 😂
emsel
November 4, 2023 at 6:59 AM
I know the reasom was there in the post, but asking would make you go on a rant again which I actually find humours :p
emsel
November 4, 2023 at 6:59 AM
Humourous*
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 4, 2023 at 12:51 PM
Naughty emsel 😂😂😂
kiara
November 2, 2023 at 10:33 AM
I was outta there like a lightning bolt. It didn’t take me back to Shilla.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 11:59 AM
I thought I might be able to make it through another week with skimming but… 😅😅
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 28, 2023 at 11:06 PM
MY DEAREST: VANITY OF VANITIES
PART TWO: In Relation to, the Entire Show, although as of writing, only up to Episode 16
aka past me was right 29/10/23
@angelshadows50 I am going to reply to our conversation on the Episode 11+12 recap, here, on my fanwall, partly because of the length this reached , which means therefore also partly because of the new DB commenting default that will put my replies to you out of order, which will be frustrating for me, and confusing for everyone else, and partly because I want to take my time to discuss parts of 13 through 16 as well, both with regards to our prior conversation, but also just in general.
I have thus used our conversation as a springboard and framing device to write a very incensed essay about this show. This is not directed at you personally, this by no means any kind of personal attack, it just happened to be easier to both reply to you and write an essay, at the same time, in the same thing. (You made three points. So I will reply to each, but because of the overall point I want to make, I am going to reply to them somewhat out of order. Lol.)
I feel that my fears that I wrote about in 9+10 have been fulfilled and that this show is taking a direction in its story I neither like, nor enjoy, nor think it objectively shouldβve. I reference that essay a lot below as well, since all of my opinions in it are still extremely relevant, especially my conclusion, so I will link it here:
https://www.dramabeans.com/members/sicarius/activity/1476910/
I will finish this show, but I will finish it with liberal use of the ffwd button and a great disappointment, although not much surprise, at how far from grace what couldβve been my favourite drama of the year has fallen.
As such, this is the last thing I will be writing on this show; I no longer care nor feel like I can properly root for any of our characters, except for maybe the Crown Prince and his wife, but since I know how that ends and since they donβt really get enough screen time that’s not nearly enough.
I will therefore, see you all in Goryeo.
.
.
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1. Why I donβt like her marriage subplot:
I can break this down into 4 subpoints.
1. I donβt like that this show follows GWTW and I donβt think it SHOULD follow GWTW, and I think the writer pulling so much from it is detrimental to her own story, and Iβm not interested in defending writing decisions based on it basically copying GWTW plot point for plot point, since I have ignored that part of the show up to this point, and intend to continue to do so.
2. I disagree with the entire way that her βabandoningβ JH was handled in episodes 9+10 and discussed why in my essay on the recap.
Not because I wanted her to elope with him, but because I think their entire relationship development shouldβve happened completely differently and with no GWTW and with no first husband.
3. I cannot be on board with the OTP if she is married as I cannot and will not support adultery, even if her husband is a nincompoop.
I also do not like, nay, I loathe, how a lot of the scenes between the leads regarding their relationship have been handled and written by the show during the period of her engagement and marriage.
I donβt actually even like that sheβs divorced now tbh. She still canβt remarry because of Joseonβs laws at the time, so it feels like an obstacle between the leads for the sake of being an obstacle between the leads and nothing else, and the romance canβt be properly enjoyed, as anything, even if itβs tragic, if itβs constantly fraught with bullshit. Are we even supposed to enjoy it? (See #3, perhaps we are notβ¦)
4. The line I used about it being βtrashyβ is because I feel like she only got married, really, internal reasoning aside, so that the show can farther push home the spoiled woman trope, which for me as of episode 13+14 and definitely as of 16, is really beginning to feel too heavy handed and almost gratuitous and the show has lost its nuance about such awful historic subject matters: I used trashy because I think being gratuitous is trashy storytelling.
This is a common complaint I have with kdramas, in that in their attempts to criticise something that anyone can see to be wrong (Joseonβs treatment of women, specifically women captured in wars etc.), they become heavy handed and gratuitous, and sometimes even manipulative, which means they cannot properly criticise or provide proper commentary.
This essentially leads me to feeling like her marriage has no Greater Narrative reason to exist.
Nothing that happened in 11-16, or even in my opinion 9-10, truly required her to be married to happen. No conflict, nor attempt at development and no stakes required her to be married. I donβt find it necessary for her to be married for any of the political plot to happen, or for the love line to be well developed, either in angst and tragedy, or otherwise.
You could ALMOST take it as a plot point out of the story entirely and you would basically have the same thing. Or you could easily have enough of the same thing that has happened so far. The only major thing you would have to change for that is the events of 9 and 10, to end up at a similar emotional point. Which I have argued in favour of anyway.
The only thing you WOULDNβT have, is Returning Women plot line, and the additional suffering and judgement Gil Chae has to face by not only being any woman returning, but a returning MARRIED woman. Which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If thatβs the only remaining reason to have her be married.
I feel that her marriage arc is being used by the narrative to push this historical criticism and to mimic GWTW, and not because it is the best narrative decision the story couldβve or shouldβve made for these characters and with the themes it established at the beginning. And yes, I think that way, even knowing GCβs position in an historic narrative, and this time period, as well.
I have more to say on this below, though, so keep reading.
2. Why her capture to Qing felt contrived:
I donβt quite know how to explain how it comes across as contrived in any way more than has already been discussed. But Iβll try.
In terms of storytelling, I found the set up for all of this very broad; too broad.
Gil Chaeβs slave happened to get caught and turned in. And then she argued with him in the square. And then she happened to be overheard and seen by an envoy, who happened to take a liking to her specifically, and decide to capture her specifically, our Leading Lady no less.
Again, itβs not that this didnβt happen, or that it couldnβt have happened, or that it couldnβt have happened to her specifically either.
Itβs that the set up for her being captured feels like it exists ONLY to get her captured, and not because it makes sense for HER to be captured, THEN, and like THAT.
It feels contrived, not because the slavery angle isnβt unrealistic, or even that opportunistic envoys is particularly unrealistic, but because of how it was executed and used by the story.
It just feels like they did it because they needed to get her to Qing, to forward the angst and the leadsβ story somehow, and not because each thing happened as a *natural* narrative flow on effect, even if it can be argued to technically be an historic one.
But even as an historic one, I feel like they shouldβve done a better job of integrating this into the plot and the flow of the action.
Which leads me nicely, into my last section, so I can talk about this exact problem, and others, more.
[Read more]
Elinor is going backward in time π―π―π―
October 29, 2023 at 12:48 AM
APPLAUSE
As the βhope and beautyβ of the GWTW era existed entirely in Margaret F*ing Mitchellβs head, Iβd say the writer has succeeded brilliantly in capturing that.
This might as well be the showβs title; βμ°μΈ/Loversβ is misdirection verging on fraud. At this point Iβm watching with the same morbid interest I might take in an extensive scab thatβs just starting to heal.
I mean, of course Iβm watching to see amazing actors acting amazingly even when theyβre fighting their way through a maddeningly circular plot, because an opportunity to see NGM and company tear into roles like these doesnβt come around often, but how long can they keep rising above the preposterous Groundhog Day situations the writer has put them in? Will we see them give up and just phone it in when theyβre doing the same damned scenes with nearly identical dialogue over and over and over? Ironically the repetitiveness and lack of growth or resolution has taken me so far out of the story that Iβm noticing actors doing their work instead of characters being themselves.
The leads are at the mercy of a writer who has (what she thinks is) one good idea and keeps hammering at it without the ability to recognize that itβs become stale and that the angst beats no longer land because (a) we can see them coming a mile away and (b) weβre just numb because weβve been hit on the same spot so often. Spiral up, spiral down, I don’t care anymore but this is a closed loop going nowhere. In a weird way, this is starting to remind me of Extraordinary You where even self-aware characters cannot break free of the unimaginative manwha authorβs endless recycling of characters and plots. Every time they try, they just get dragged back into the frame by the heavy hand of the writer.
I did not realize JH spent six months in bed, pretending he still needed GCβs nursing – I thought it was somewhere between six days and six weeks. And he gets up and unwinds the bandages after all that time and still has those muscles? LOL. Oh well, a moment of fanservice is a respite from pain p()rn. And on the topic of fanservice, the obsessive jealous princess is insultingly unrealistic and out of place in this story and I refuse to engage with that nonsense no matter how much scope it gives NGM for glaring or looking anguished.
Reacting partly to your previous essay: I do wonder how much of my/our collective reaction to this show is shaped by the foundational notion that suffering is redemptive, either before or after death (which is not a part of my religious tradition but permeates my culture) and therefore when suffering neither redeems nor explores lack of redemption, but just IS, that is what renders it meaningless. If the show wants to give us ‘meaningless’ but realistic suffering such as occurred with mind-boggling frequency in Joseon, it should be a documentary. Storytelling needs meaning.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 1:27 AM
*snorts* Thank you.
It’s creeving infuriating isn’t it? “”Ironically the repetitiveness and lack of growth or resolution has taken me so far out of the story that Iβm noticing actors doing their work instead of characters being themselves.””
Multiple times this week I could only think “who even is Jang Hyun again” the character writing is that inconsistent. AEJ sobbing when she realises how much he’s done for her was brilliant work but I’m heartless and felt naught because I’m writing and character driven lmao.
Oh the EY comparison is so hilariously and ironically apt considering my reasons for hating that show hahaha bravo. 🤣🤣
I almost mentioned the state of his body but decided it was lesser titbit to the greater issue. And I’m estimating off what I know regarding other crops, but yeah if you plant in the Spring and Harvest in the Autumn then yes that’s about 6 effing months. I almost made a whole separate post just to rip that entire mess out.
💯 to the princess. I eyeroll my way through a lot of this now, can you tell.
“”therefore when suffering neither redeems nor explores lack of redemption, but just IS, that is what renders it meaningless. If the show wants to give us βmeaninglessβ but realistic suffering such as occurred with mind-boggling frequency in Joseon, it should be a documentary. Storytelling needs meaning.””
👏👏👏 Because Suffering itself needs meaning, yeah.
And the Death of Meaning should not be served.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 1:27 AM
>> As an example on the Capture feeling contrived front:
When the girls went to Ganghwa Island it felt like a logical narrative decision for multiple reasons: it was used similarly for conflict, yes, but it also made sense in that Ganghwa was known to be the safest place and nobody would assume otherwise at the time, and to show the trust between GC and JH and the result of that as well.
Ofc we as the viewer know because of history it was going to be a bad idea, but it’s not Illogical for that to happen within the story or within history.
So it made the plot point exciting and the story and the conflict was running parallel to history.
GC’s capture to Qing instead was merely “Yangban were captured – so she is going to be captured. She needs to get to Qing- so she will be kidnapped to Qing.”
Rather than it being properly integrated as I discuss properly in the essay.
Just wanted to add that example and comparison before I forgot about it again.
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 4:58 AM
If I follow your logic, I could also say about the Ganghwa plot that is was just as illogical: “We have to show what happened on the island because you know, history….. so let’s send them there…but how?…oh, let’s have JH tell GC to go because we can’t think of any reason on how all 4 of them would end up on an island…and promise her that he will save her so he would have a reason to go also….and somehow he finds her dagger all the way in the manchu camp cause that is what manchu soldiers do, they collect daggers found on the beach… and thinks she is dead…but she isn’t….and he decides to go anyway even though he thinks she is dead…but he just happenes to see her in that particular moment in the forest….and he goes on and fights 17 freaking blood drinking soldiers…and she kind of sees him but….doesn’t, because he hides…all to be separated again and again…and more angst and mistrust….
The problem with getting kidnapped is…you don’t know you’re getting kidnapped, it just happens, so I don’t see how she could prepare us or to show anything about the 2 leads because the reason of the kidnapping has nothing to do with them but with the events in the history. So it was a paralel to the history of that moment and had the right to be introduced in the story just as well as the Ganghwa plot.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 10:51 AM
I guess.
I just felt that Ganghwa made more sense overall because Ganghwa was a place that refugees fled too and JH in trying to keep them safe sent them there too, because he knew that.
They ended up on the island because they needed some place safe from the war. So for me there was more narrative justification link is my argument.
She could always have not used kidnapping????
And I disagree there couldn’t have been a way to set that up smoother.
I don’t mind the dagger cos it’s a thematic motif.
If my example argument doesn’t land, then stick with my intiial one haha.
The kidnapping not having anything to do with them but ONLY history is EXACTLY my point. She’s telling a story too, set in history, not just history.
I’ve already argued my points about narrative interaction with history and the end result of this that the drama ends up at, in the main essay though so I won’t repeat them here.
Kurama
October 29, 2023 at 4:13 AM
I lost interest in the couple since a long time now. So in te first part, I liked it because they spend a lot of time separated.
But now, the writer wants to get them back and my issue is that I don’t like the characters when they’re together. I don’t buy their big love for each other. I don’t like how the characters act and the actors to be honest. I don’t like when Ahn Eun-Jin talks with this little voice that must be sounded as noble woman I guess. She’s far more interesting when she slapped the guy in the street.
They finally can spend time together and his first reaction is to lie about the gravity of his wounds… It’s not romantic but childish and stupid…
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 11:02 AM
I didn’t really feel the same way you did say the beginning as you know, because I genuinely hoped then in the potential I could see in the story.
But now I comisserate with you mich more lmao.
Childish and Stupid and Ridiculous 💯💯. Neither that or the “sexy” kiss scene was romantic to me.
kiara
October 29, 2023 at 7:33 AM
“…great disappointment, although not much surprise, at how far from grace what couldβve been my favourite drama of the year has fallen.”
Disappointment is putting it mildly.
I didn’t see the point of her getting married. She was financially independent, and since when did she care about her reputation and being an old maid? Just because women were suppressed in that era doesn’t mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.
Although the acting is excellent and the history fascinating, the sense of magic and hope I felt in part 1 vanished.
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 9:11 AM
I remember clearly that she dreamed a lot about meeting her future husband. And that she even dreamed in episode 4 to be rescued by him. And to almost getting married in the first episodes. And so on and so on with her first “love”. Yes, she didn’t care about what people thought of her as long as she got what she wanted. She wanted a marriage to a noble dude, she got it and paid for it. Well, almost. And she was not that independent, she relied on her husband help and she probably felt that she owned him a lot for his help.
I don’t know if a married crown princess and all the advantages and protection that comes with that title is a fitting example. She was, after all, just a mere country daughter of a school.
kiara
October 29, 2023 at 10:52 AM
Comment was deleted
kiara
October 29, 2023 at 10:54 AM
*sigh* I didnβt think to copy my reply since it was not an essay, but it disappeared.
@Kodra
Yes, he helped her, and she swallowed her pride and accepted it because she didnβt want to starve to death or her family.
They became business partners when she changed the forge into a successful business. The only thing he did was give her permission to use his family forge, and she did all the work. He was able to earn money from her ideas and hard work. She married him because she thought Jang Hyun was dead.
I agree that the crown princess has advantages, but as a mere country daughter (as you put it), her experience and talents helped feed and free some of her people.
How can common people not relate to that?
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 7:27 PM
I thought that I made my point of why she did care about her reputation and being an old maid. And how much she wanted to get married. That’s why she got married, to secure her and her loved ones future. I don’t think those times allowed for a woman to be financially independent, as you put it. She was the one that clinged to that era’s morals and traditions. JH, on the other hand, didn’t and that is why she refused him even though she felt otherwise. I am sure some do not embrace the fact that here we have a FL not being the “feminist” we are used to in the recent dramas, but one that adheres to the rules of “patriarchy”. She doesn’t even question it. It is because of his love that she finds the courage to even ask for divorce. For me is one of the reasons I watched the show because is so uncommon in dramas these days.
“Just because women were suppressed in that era doesnβt mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.”
Sure, but the crown princess was married, LOL. Without her husband’s position she would not have had those accomplishments. How can common people relate to that? That she, unlike others, in fact did her job of protecting “her” people? Maybe. Maybe that is why GC married also, because she had a very good example that she could relate to. But then you don’t like the fact that GC got married…It just doesn’t make sense to me what you are trying to say.
kiara
October 30, 2023 at 12:35 AM
You’d be surprised when you do research you’d find women in this era who were financially independent. Some were born from poor families or slaves in the gibang, etc.
“Sure, but the crown princess was married, LOL. Without her husband’s position, she would not have had those accomplishments.”
Are you for real?
Married or not, women looked up to her as the future mother of the nation. She was a complete woman with talents before she married the Crown Prince. She was put in a situation where she could utilize her abilities and show her love for her people, even with the drama diminishing her accomplishments. She is being shoved to the side so GC can be the one to get her hands dirty. (Historically, it was her idea to do farming to make money to buy their people who were sold in the slave market and send them home. She worked on the farm with her people and more.)
I can’t articulate my point correctly regarding GC’s marriage, so that’s on me. You can laugh at me for that.
Kodra
October 30, 2023 at 4:54 AM
@kiara
I thought that women could not own properties at that time, hence my statement. How could they have been truly independent in that era? I am not saying that they were not capable if allowed, because they were just as capable as women in our times.
You said that GC should have taken an example from her. In your words:
“Just because women were suppressed in that era doesnβt mean they were helpless. The crown princess is an example of women using their talents and willpower to survive, whether in Qing or Joseon.”
Well, the crown princess was not that helpless. Nor suppressed, for that matter, because she was allowed to mingle in state affairs by her husband. Again, I am not saying that she was not a capable woman, but those were the times. She was not put in that position on her own, her husband was and she made the best of it. You gave her as an example for SINGLE women at that time to follow, that statement I have an issue with.
I am sorry to say but I do not share your enthusiasm for the couple since they did come from a privileged position. Sure, I see them in a better light than most, but I am not infatuated with them like you all are. Yes, they helped the captured people from Qing but they still came to be in that position in a country that suppresed most of its people back in Joseon. And I certainly do not see in good light his opening to foreigners influence as something positive and I see it as being a tool for quiet foreign invasion and economic pludgering later on. I very much support change that comes from within a country, that is real change. And I certainly do not share the introduction of foreign values and religion in another country, by force or by other clever means because that also introduces the economic control of that country later on.
And we did not know what they could truly would have accomplished once they took the throne, the compromises they would have had to make. The country was still ruled by the crazy fractions and they failed their first true test by not gather enough support or enough protection from the Qing.
kiara
October 30, 2023 at 6:17 PM
Have you heard of Gim Man-deok? Read her story. She didn’t have to own a property to be independent.
Do we only relate to people like us?
I have a hard time explaining my thoughts in my 3rd language, and I’m tired. Maybe I’ll revisit your post later because you do have a lot of valid things to share, and I’m being defensive, too.
Kodra
October 30, 2023 at 9:14 PM
@kiara
I didn’t know about Gim Man-deok so I googled her and I could only find her wiki page in english, most were in korean, from which I found out that:
“She managed to achieve her position in Jeju thanks to the island’s egalitarian and matrifocal culture, where women had greater economic and social independence than the rest of the country, whose Neo-Confucian ideology enforced strong female repression.”
I don’t know if it is true since is wiki and I have no knowledge why in Jeju island women had more freedom. But my argument still stands when it comes to 17th century mainland Joseon, unless you meant that GC should have gone to Jeju island and be an independent single woman there at the end of 18th century.
But thanks for letting me know about Gim Man-deok, she was indeed a remarkable woman. I’ll see if I could find more info about her life and watch the drama about her.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 10:59 AM
But the point of the Husband Dream is that it is Jang Hyun… See my second subpoint about her marriage plot.
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 7:35 PM
Yes, we know. And the dream is still happening, she is almost at the beach where he has been waiting for her. He has always loved her, she had to do a lot of “running” to come to that conclusion.
But I was making another point to Kiara, the one that she always wanted to be a married woman and not an old maid.
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 7:48 PM
About her marriage plot…
That is the whole story. A married woman finds love and hope after being captive and abandoned by her husband. It said so in all the synopsis, we just chose to ignore it.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 1, 2023 at 2:08 PM
Then we’re back to my first “essay” after 9+10 and how I think the writing of the show itself in the first half set up for something different from this professed plot and synopsis.
I also have a habit of thinking that just because a show thinks it should do something, doesn’t mean it actually should for the best story or for its characters. π
Kodra
November 2, 2023 at 5:43 PM
@sicarius
I am sorry that you see the show this way for some time now. For me it has many parallels with the world I grew up in and it has different meanings that I care and relate with.
You can be “back” to that essay, I certainly am not (and I do not belong in “the audience” you have been talking about in the second one, also). The first half set up the characters and the backstory for the main one. That you don’t like the main story, I understand. But to not get it at all, not so much, more so because I do enjoy how you write.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 2, 2023 at 8:07 PM
Thank you!
I “get” the main story you speak about fine.
I just don’t think it’s objectively good story telling, and I disagree that, whatever you think is the main story, should’ve been the main story, is all I guess.
But perhaps you can clarify more about what you mean here.
Kodra
November 3, 2023 at 3:14 AM
@sicarius
The marriage. You called it a subplot, something that was not needed among many, many other things. You wrote that “their entire relationship development shouldβve happened completely differently and with no GWTW and with no first husband”. The marriage is the whole point of the story, whether you like it or not, and is the point from which everything flows. And it didn’t follow GWTW in this aspect, the beginning did to hook us for the marriage and for what’s to come. And not the marriage per se, but the fact that she is/was a married woman and how she recovered and found love and hope in those cruel times, even if only for a short time if JH will end up dead, after being abandoned for reasons that she had no control of. You say that her capture is contrived and it was only to drive GC to JH. But if the marriage and the love she has even after her abandoment are the center point of the story, then I beg to differ. I can even say that the reason JH was sent to S city in the story to begin with is because GC was suppose to come there eventually to be abandoned and not the other way around.
I could go more in depth but time is not on my side. And there is really no need for because if you don’t get the marriage thing and think about it as a subplot still at episode 16 then you don’t get what this story is about.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 5, 2023 at 6:05 PM
Comment was deleted
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
November 5, 2023 at 6:46 PM
I think we’re going round in circles.
I think the story should’ve been, imperatively, objectively, NOT the one we got.
I’ve written two essays to try and explain why. If you don’t get ME by that point, and think I still don’t get you (or the story apparently), that is what it is, but oh well. Thanks for participating in this thread anyway. 🖤
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 11:05 AM
I saved my vitriol for the essay π
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 5:13 PM
Comment was deleted
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 5:23 PM
Lol woops I was two years off in my timeline; we only have two years now before the Prince dies not 4, but oh well.
Kodra
October 29, 2023 at 8:17 AM
“Quoting the writer herself here:
She wanted to impose the βhope and beautyβ of GWTW onto this era of Korean history? What hope? What beauty? Where? ”
Hope that a lot of those women not only survived but found love. Hope that there were, even in those times, men like JH ( and Rhett Butler ) that went against the current and loved and cherished women considered “tainted” by society. And that is beautiful.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 10:57 AM
What hope can I take from the love story when it only intent on torturing them despite this? It doesn’t seem like it is really telling their love story but rather their failed love story. Their hope in love has transcended nothing so far.
And what beauty can I find in JH’s character when they refuse to develop him or his committment properly or provide him with coherent growth?
That IS beautiful, I agree, and I like that he has always stood up against that, yes, but the story has to be more than just saying that.
The execution should echo the message.
I don’t think it has achieved either of these things in a way that is truly satisfying narratively and right now only seems intent on killing any true hope it might pretend to profess.
I don’t think it is transcending is tragedy and I take issue with that.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 11:15 AM
Or for that matter, what hope in love do they actually have? The show hasn’t developed that, it’s spent 16 episodes of them walking round in circles lying to each other, even by the end of the stint in Qing; there is, as I have said, no true return.
If they made any progress at all it is both incoherent, and back to square one by the end of 16.
“In the end you are left wondering what the point in being invested in this couple is at all.”
Mrs Buckwheat
October 29, 2023 at 5:50 PM
Well said.
I too am feeling very, very fatigued of being “dragged” through the “angst, misery, pain p–n” and “continued repetitionΒ loop- with no pay off” whatsoever.Β We have watched over 16 hours without one honest conversation or any straightforward communication between our leads. I’m resigned to the fact that this is not first and foremost a romance. I only wish it had been clearer from the start then my expectationsΒ would not have been so high.Β
As much as I love watching both lead actors, maybe this would have been better as 16 episodes to get rid of a lot of frustrating crap that has deviated from the tighter first half of the show.Β
Third time trying to post for an apparently inappropriate word π
Hwaiting.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 5:59 PM
But the start had 3 intros, and two of them were literally all this imagery about the ROMANCE. I don’t think it’s entirely our fault for expecting different and more of this show.
Yes, p0rn is apparently now an IW, I had to search through almost all of my 4500 words to find the offending thing when first posting this lmao.
angelshadows50
October 30, 2023 at 2:06 AM
Hi, @sicarius, I am seeing your post this morning. It’s always good to have something to take as starting point for a commentary, so I do not feel insulted or anything of that sort. I want to study your argumentation in detail, which will take a while (currently my day life is extremely full). Thanks for the thoughtful and lengthy commentary.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 30, 2023 at 2:40 AM
Hello! Thank you and No worries! Take your time! I’m probably gonna take a break from dB later this week anyway, kinda commented out haha
angelshadows50
October 30, 2023 at 9:44 AM
Commented out … ! very good expression π
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 28, 2023 at 10:50 PM
MY DEAREST: ON GRACE IN TRAGEDY
PART ONE: In Relation to the First Half of the show, specifically Episodes 9+10.
Posting for Archival Reasons. 05/09/23
Context:
disclaimer: this is discussing hypothetical directions of the show, and thematic storytelling concepts, in light of what we have so far, in particular episode 10, and is *extremely* stream of consciousness, and so if it takes a meandering and circuitous route to get to my point, that is why. please bear with me. lol.
.
.
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Iβm struggling here because I am wondering if what I expected from the show early on
If those expectations are unfounded. And if so, how unfounded.
If it ends with them dead (see: @elinorβs theory re. the dream)β¦
I don’t mind them being dead tbh, if the story gets there in the correct way, if all the narrative beats land, and the resolution feels satisfying and earned.
But I donβt feel like 10 succeeded in earning β¦ its direction, and its narrative choices.
Why?
I donβt mind the messy and flaws and the insecurities up until a point
But instead of the show returning on those, pushing that forward, taking those characters FARTHER
Itβs keeping them stuck there
And instead of following through with the OBVIOUS development here, that is staring you in the face from ep 1 through 3 (see: my episode 1 comment)
Instead it is to me dwelling on this βficklenessβ and βdoubtβ, essentially of both characters, whether you think either is or is not fickle, or whether either is justified in their doubts and the immediate reactions therein or notβthatβs not particularly important I donβt think — whatβs important is not the immediate reaction or actions of the characters, just as much as itβs not the immediate plot of the show either—– itβs the story itself, the writing, dwelling on these, and sort of revelling in that still not currently being resolvedβ¦ orβ¦ potentially never being resolved
And pushing that, that βrevellingβ as a central conflict itself instead
I donβt THINK Iβm unjustified in expecting something more from the show than this, in how eps 1 through 6 in particular went.
I would find it more interesting, and not just more narratively satisfying personally, but like actually objectively BETTER narratively, if instead of getting absorbed in that aspect of the characters, we went above and beyond their foibles and failings.
I donβt think this is the kind of story, or tragedy, if itβs going that way, that benefits from dwelling in constant mistake and upheaval.
There has to be some kind of release. Some kind of return. Small ones, episodically, and weekly, or rather than limiting it to that, small ones in terms of smaller internal arcs, and then bigger ones in terms of the overall show.
Iβm not saying erase the conflict altogether, or strip the nuance from the characters in case anyone gets confused by this. Thatβs not it at all.
What I mean is that β¦ in the essence of the archetypal story this isβ¦ in the essence of a grand sweeping stakes and high romance and war and death and tragedy and piningβ¦ (think big, back, deeper, removed) β¦
the eucatastrophe* of it all is almost imperative:
The character failings in this kind of show are classic tools to forward character DEVELOPMENT, not solely angst, to forward a growth, not a lack
Angst itself is not enough. You need to give your audience, and as much your characters, meaning behind that.
Ironically, I think itβs beginning to fail at that.
Not wholly, not yet, but I can see the cracks, and it failed at that for me in episode 10 at least
The angst this week⦠I guess I have to say this, hate to say it, but it actually felt MORE manufactured.
As Iβve said, I didnβt MIND it existing up until a certain point, because you canβt have character development without conflict, but if you only stay WITHIN the conflict,
Youβre essentially leading your audience and characters on forβ¦ no other reason than to lead them on.
Now weβre only half way, so we do need a conflict for the half way point, well β¦ debatably, depending on how you wanna structure your story and how closely you wanna stick to act rules (not always a fan myself)
which is why my original comment exists;
Id est I *could* be satisfied with the emotional point we ended up at this week, if only we got there differently
And thatβs what this comment is for, to explore what that βdifferentlyβ is that I am seeking
if just doing it differently with a different focus wouldβve worked, or if it needed/needs something else entirely
We also have to ask ourselves, where our characters will GO from here? And why?
And so NOW Iβm reassessing what I think this drama thinks it is, and where its going
If it actually knows, if it is sound in that, and if that is what I want it to be, or think it SHOULD, objectively, beβ¦
I also donβt think itβs especially relevant if her being married before was in original premise, or if β”this is what GWTW did thoughββ
Because I think I would still have the same reaction if Iβd watched with either of those frames of references
That is, a rejection of HOW itβs doing that and also in part a rejection of the WHY (or at least an implied greater why, given that weβre again, only at the half way mark)
.
To farther my earlier point about the revelling in conflict and irresolutionβ¦
Simultaneously in this show, somehow β¦ there is this idea of truly fated beings, of them trusting each other and putting their faith in each other and responding to each other in this very almost instinctual way, where what they say and what they do donβt line up, but that what they do is more importantβ¦
And then thereβs this idea of that being broken or betrayed or unfulfilled in some way, with the mistrust and the fighting and the need for security etc etc, but instead of that being broken as a tragedy or as something to be restored, itβs saying thatβ¦ itβs always been broken?
Which doesnβt line up to meβ¦
AND THEN
Thereβs fated and entwined, as I said, which we SEE, with this constant crossing over, and the dreams, and that inherent connection again
But he has been stripped and thrown to the wind
and their connexion constantly severed, again not as a tragedy or as something to be restored, in either case to release catharsis,
But as something that can only be constantly severedβ¦
Which again, β¦ doesnβt add up to me
As to WHY you would go that route
Instead of tragedy and or restoration route
What I mean by this is that a final tragedy imo doesnβt have to be this constant severing, this always broken
It can be, and it can be this constant spiral of missed opportunities and wrong decisions, but for that kind of tragedy to work, it has to be INEVITABLE-
(See: EXTRACURRICULAR. one day I will write about that show and about how it is a classic tragedy about the fall of man, but not today)
It has to be a kind of inescapable
and this inescapableness has to, itself, be inescapable, like there is NO OTHER OPTION and thatβs OBVIOUS.
This *points at show aggressively* is NOT unavoidable!
AND
I do not think that this story IS actually, or needs to be, or SHOULD be, THAT kind of TRAGEDY
And I donβt think even the dream, which is the strongest foreshadower of the future over anything, justifies it either, let alone anything else.
And if it is NOT the inevitable kind of tragedy,
Then it MUST be, it MUST be an βeucatastrophicβ* tragedy.
That feels like an oxymoron lmao Iβm so sorry Tolkien, I promise it makes more sense in my head:
*A eucatastrophe usually refers to an ending of a story, and a sudden turn of events that avoids impending doom. But here I use it mainly to mean smaller moments, internal eucatastrophes that make it all worthwhile; eucatastrophe as a process, and so a resolution with joy like sorrow, sorrow like joy.
(And I think this is in line with how Tolkien uses it and talks about it too β The Ring is destroyed, but the Shire is scoured and Frodo must pass into the West, etc.)
But do not mistake the foreshadowing for this^, for a eucatastrophe, either.
The foreshadowing is not enough to justify it being the inevitable kind of tragedy, and it is even less enough to justify it being THIS kind.
It would not be a true achievement of the kind of thematic storytelling I am talking about in its current state and direction.
it is missing some deeper understanding of what that sorrow like joy, joy like sorry, eucatastrophe means.
To be united in death, there must be hope in death BECAUSE of something, not because of nothing.
//
βTolkien coined the word eucatastropheβthe good catastropheβto express the reality of βa sudden and miraculous grace.β It gives the reader βa catch of breath, a beat and lifting of the heart, and a piercing glimpse of joy and heartβs desire.ββ [Read more]
Ally
October 29, 2023 at 5:58 PM
AS A MOM who just had to edit a 500 word essay down to 250 and a 1000 word essay down to 500 for her son’s college apps, it’s taking everything that is in me to not edit your post right now! I don’t think I’m in the right headspace for this. LOL!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 29, 2023 at 6:03 PM
LOL please don’t this specific one was much messier and all over the place than my usual essays because my brain wasn’t working when I wrote it, so it’s supposed to be like that let it beeee 😂
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 27, 2023 at 10:26 PM
Neither are mine, aPpaRENTly
My Dearest #14
The writing in this is driving me up the WALL.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 1:04 AM
HRH Status update:
Exhausted, physically, mentally, spiritually… ecumenically. etc
Evillive – Dropped. cbb
My Dearest – Behind. didn\’t have the internet, or the time, over the weekend to darkside lol
Worst of Evil – Ready for it to end
The Day/ The Kidnapping Day – Almost forgot I was watching this woops
Mad Dog/Hari x Minjoon Fangirling – Sooooooo behind
Other: Rewatching A:TLA, and finally started Spy x Family (which like, I read/am reading the manga, and then the show came out, and then I put off watching it because…??? anyway)
Ready: For a new wave of dramas to start to cure my boredom for three weeks before I drop them again 😂.
Kurama
October 24, 2023 at 2:13 AM
Stop eating ice-creams! It’s not good for the health!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 7:26 PM
It’s very good for me actually shhh stop spreading lies π
Cay_sbtgoG
October 24, 2023 at 2:49 AM
Ready: For a new wave of dramas to start to cure my boredom for three weeks before I drop them again 😂
I like your spirit. 😁 Should I do the same? Although I’m not sure I have the patience.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 11:34 AM
I think it’s the opposite of patience I have lmao
Cay_sbtgoG
October 24, 2023 at 6:28 PM
I am not even willing to watch something that I possibly drop midway. 😄
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 7:25 PM
Do you drop at all? Haha if I only started what I thought I’d finish I might not start anything 😂😂😂
Cay_sbtgoG
October 24, 2023 at 9:03 PM
I dropped tons! Mostly shows that weren’t to my taste in the first place, but watched them anyway for some reasons (actors, boredom). KTL, DWY, BYT, Revenant, SYIM19thL, MD to name a few for this year only. now, looking back, I should’ve trusted my initial instinct.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 9:05 PM
Hahaha so you probably DO have my “patience”.
That’s basically all I do. Start for small reasons, 1 actor, boredom, lots of boredom, often know early I won’t like, drop when I have to. Etc. 😂
Cay_sbtgoG
October 24, 2023 at 9:25 PM
So, I don’t have anything to watch now; just re-watch my comfort shows. I probably gonna check on Kidnapping Day once it’s completed.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 25, 2023 at 1:51 PM
I’m probably not the best sell on Kidnapping Day; think I like it far less than everyone else 😅😅
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
October 24, 2023 at 3:03 AM
My Queen why are you exhausted your status should always be CBB.
“ecumenically” – really? How can one be exhausted like that!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 7:24 PM
Oh you know,
burnout, depression, anxiety, funerals, wisdom teeth… The usual.Ecumenically is a reference and quote from Pirates of the Carribbean lmfao but I’m pretty sure I could also find a way to be tired ecumenically. I’m so well versed in it.
Cera (@Seeker) is starry-eyed with Wookie π
October 24, 2023 at 9:02 PM
I do understand we have times when we are overwhelmed and feel cornered by life on all sides.
As human beings all we can do is to walk our way Through The Darkness and hope for our Daily Dose of Sunshine.
Hwaiting!!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 24, 2023 at 9:06 PM
Haha thank you! 🖤
kiara
October 25, 2023 at 9:16 AM
We’ll hold hands through “My Dearest.”
I hope you are feeling better today!
/hugs
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 25, 2023 at 12:33 PM
You’re really gonna have to because I have no motivation at all to click on 13 and 14 hahaha
kiara
October 25, 2023 at 1:02 PM
13 and 14 are skippable, so you are not missing much.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 25, 2023 at 1:24 PM
Oh good that means skimming them shouldn’t be TOO painful… not sure I think I can skip them entirely yet. I’m worried at this rate though I’m just gonna ffwd the entire rest of the show 😅😅😅
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 19, 2023 at 2:02 AM
Worst of Evil 8+9
Lmfao
Well I guess that was fun while it lasted. Me watching this without extensive use of the fast-forward button that is.
I was so bored during 8+9 my eyes were glazing over and then the writing got dumber and heralded the rest of the Four Horsemen of the Dropocalypse, and I still donβt know why anyone does anything in this show, yay.
The one small silver lining, is that I genuinely think JCW is doing very well here, and I enjoy watching him even more than WHJ.
Too bad I still donβt like the show, Wookieβ¦
Skimming the last three episodes it is.
LaurenSophie
October 19, 2023 at 6:25 AM
I haven’t seen every single one of his performances since “Healer” so this isn’t a totally fair assessment, but for me, this is absolutely his best one in that time period. The show is all about his character going through an emotional wringer, and there are a ton of tight shots on his face (and for once, not just to show us how attractive it is) where he has to make this outrageous story look believable and poignant because we care about this guy. He’s truly impressive, especially since the writing leaves a lot of gaps, fails to establish a clear backstory, and is always more focused on how a scenes looks rather than how it feels or what it accomplishes.
But yeah, I wish the writing was better because with just a few tweaks and a better balance of scenes the show could have been really good.
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 19, 2023 at 11:42 AM
I haven’t seen all of them either but I’ve seen enough and I agree with you.
💯💯👏👏
There were shots in 9 where he just glares bloody murder at Gichul after killing a corridor full of guys, and even though I thought that whole bloodbath scene was ridiculous and made no sense, and even though I was ffwding, I completely believed Wookie in that moment lol.
I think your summary is very apt in what is wrong with this show. I would add to it by saying I think its flaws are even more condensed under one idea, and that is that it’s basically a crash course failure in why establishing clearly defined character motivation is immensely important.
“and is always more focused on how a scenes looks rather than how it feels or what it accomplishes.”
Ugh, this. And it’s so annoying because there were glimpses of otherwise earlier on. Oh well. Typical. 😅
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 18, 2023 at 6:05 PM
Ghosts in my notifs lol
tabong will pay for her Salvation with Milkπ
October 18, 2023 at 6:35 PM
LOL
Did you clicked it? Where did it take you?
Lord Cobol (Kdramas, like water, flow downhill)
October 18, 2023 at 6:49 PM
I’m getting Revenant vibes here.
tabong will pay for her Salvation with Milkπ
October 18, 2023 at 6:53 PM
🤣
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 19, 2023 at 2:04 AM
Wish I got that reference. I don’t actually. I’m content with avoiding that show lel
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 19, 2023 at 2:03 AM
It took me to the My Dearest 11+12 recap but to a comment that doesn’t exist lmao.
tabong will pay for her Salvation with Milkπ
October 19, 2023 at 2:19 AM
Spooky stuff. Maybe the DB staff trying to pull some Halloween pranks? Hahaha *laughs to hide the fear*
korfan
October 19, 2023 at 12:09 AM
Oh, interesting!
Ghost of Tim (eccentric observations from a male perspective)
October 19, 2023 at 7:04 AM
That wasn’t me!
ππβ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia β ππ
October 19, 2023 at 11:29 AM
You have competition clearly haha