The RED SLEEVE: Episodes 7 & 8 WALL HANGOUT and DISCUSSION THREAD
Okay first of all, so many things happened in these two episodes.
Secondly, I may have gone down like a three-hr long rabbit hole about knives. There was very little in this episode about it, but thatโs just how my brain works so youโre getting the results of the rabbit hole whether you asked for it or not. (Like the time I spent a couple of hours trying to find out what kind of rapt0r was used in Inspector and Joy Ep 5/6 as their messenger bird. I concluded it was a goshawk, for anyone that was wonderingโฆ)
All my thoughts are below in diff comments because I havenโt figured out the best way to format these yet and I have lots of thoughts lmao. *braces self for notification overload*
I’ve had too many thoughts rolling round in my head to let them fester for another day hahaha. It’s Monday here already anyway.
It took me well over a week, and I still have a cough, but at least in terms of that side of things, I am feeling much better.
Good to hear that you are feeling better.
I haven’t finished watching episode 8 yet. It’s so easy to veer off into different directions with this show. I can’t just watch it all the way through. I’m constantly pausing to lookup more info and geek over it. haha
Too many distractions this weekend, so hopefully. I’ll finish watching it by tomorrow.
First, I’m not sure to understand the comparison with The King’s Affection. They have different source, a manhwa for TKA and a novel for Red Sleeve. One is completely original and plays with gender, the other is based on history with real events and characters.
I like how the writer use Sado without showing him and how his shadow is lingering above the main characters. The King uses it to scare people ” I killed my own son, nobody is safe”, the Head Lady Court is using him as an excuse to her decisions, Hyebin Hong’s position is complicated, San’s love is torn between his father and his grandfather, he must prove that he’s different.
For Red Sleeves, after 8 episodes, San didn’t really show any growth because the politics are slow and his love story too. There were some events like the tiger, the Princess Hwawan’s lies about his life but we didn’t see him really taking action except to save Deok-Im. But it ended up with the King taking the decision. We don’t really know what his secret group is doing. In his personnal life, he still doesn’t understand Deok-Im’s stand point.
At least, Head Court Lady showed her true face.
Deok-Im is not in a confortable situation. She has feelings for the CP but the Head Court Lady is trying to use them agains the person she loves… The CP himself is stubborn. After 8 episodes, I wonder how the writer will accelarate the story, I remember in Scarlet, the characters got closer to each other in the time jump. I really hope they won’t do that.
For once, the FL didn’t relive their one scene as kids in each episode like it was the best thing in her life. So I was kinda surprised that she hugged him too at the end. The last time they shared a skinship, it wasn’t a good one…
I think, for now, San is partial to his father since he was taken from him at a very young age, and he has been suppressing the painful memories of his father lashing out at him.
From the flashback in episode 2:
San tries to say goodbye to his parents but instead is met with Sado’s wrath.
San: I wanted to say a proper goodbye to father, His Highness.
Crown Princess Hye-bin: He just wanted to say farewell to his parents. Do you not know your own soon?
Crown Prince Sado: (yelling at San) I don’t even know my parents. Would I know my son? Go away! His Majesty said he is only taking you with him!
San outside: Grandfather is only taking me. Then what about father…
Sado: I’m not needed as long as that child exists! He was born to kill me.
This is not the Sado that San remembers in episode 7.
I think in due time, San will understand his grandfather and that he sacrificed his father to save him, and that everything that he is doing now is to protect him.
This is such a compelling dilemma that can be interpreted in so many ways.
I think the comparison to KA comes from how each show deals with the political side of their stories, which both have, because they’re both still sageuks, albeit very different kinds yes, and commentary on writing politics in sageuks in general.
To me, I was thinking she hugged San because she was touched, and also because the scene was aiming to be a direct contrast to the end of ep 7 beginning of ep 8, in that scene the CP (San is in his Dragon Robes) is cornering Deok-Im in a dark library demanding she acknowledge that he owns her completely and of course he grabs her throat in one hand to intimidate her and remind her she is completely in his power. By the end of episode 8 I think San has mostly redeemed himself in her eyes, he goes out of his way to try and protect Deok-Im even if doing so doesn’t benefit him in any way and is in fact quite risky for him. That last scene they are in the garden, broad daylight with nothing confining Deok-Im and San is not in royally distinct clothing, in that moment San isconfessing that he was the boy she had met so long ago, and though I don’t think the encounter with San specifically was super important to Deok-Im, but that overall event was critical in forming her opinions on the type of person she wanted to be and the type of life she wanted to lead in the palace, so of course she remembers everything about the day. I think in that moment Deok-Im was touched that this boy who turned out to be the Crown Prince had held that moment in HIS mind so dearly, and that he had considered her a friend that he would be so happy to meet again after all those years. So in that moment, he isn’t the Crown Prince, but San, an old friend, so I feel that in that moment she felt they were equal and was happy to return the hug.
It came across to me, that Deok Imโs initial rejection of San, is heavily influenced by the Head Court Lady wishing and pressuring her to be a concubine, in order for Deok Im to be the HCLโs person, and not Sanโs. As well as her wishing to retain some of her autonomy as a person, and her being free spirited, Deok Im has already sworn her whole-hearted allegiance to the Prince, till her death, and just last episode at that. This allegiance is then challenged by the Head Court Ladyโs, not once, but twice in these episodes. Deok Im rejects her, much more easily I might add, than she rejects the Prince himself.
Becoming a concubine at the request of anyone else might be seen to her, as a betrayal of her allegiance to San (ironic considering he gets angry about this anyway, but more discussion on that below.)
Because there are more than just the power dynamics between San and Deok Im, if they wish to be romantically involved, at play here.
The Queen offers Deok Im a place in HER Palace, stating that she can offer a kind of protection she canโt get anywhere else, and that the Prince has a lot of enemies.
The Head Court Lady doesnโt want San to be king, and is already plotting against him- one of those angles being getting a court lady to be his concubine which would give her power, if she can guarantee that court ladyโs loyalty.
On top of that you have San who wants to both love better than his grandfather, and both honour his father and his grandfather, but be different from them both as well, and to rule justly and wisely, and strongly, as King of his people.
And then there are power dynamics again between the different members of the court, allies and enemies of San, the Princess Hwawan vs Lady Hye Gyung, and Hong Deok Roโs unsatiable ambition vs his loyalty to the Prince.
Thrown on the top of everything is Deok Im, who already has the trust (and the heart) of the Crown Prince, and has already shown her worth through her own loyalty to him, and as someone who can use her position to great effect on events. This places a target on her head to any of the above players. She is a threat to the HCL if the HCL cannot ensure her loyalty, and she is a potential threat to Deok Ro, who wishes to place his own sister beside San as concubine (heโs a great older brother lol).
I saw a comment say that this has less court politics than Kingโs Affection- Iโd be tempted to disagree, I think this has plenty of politicky going on but a lot of it is inferred and more subtle than in your face. Thatโs my impression anyway.
The political intrigues are the bread and butter of sageuks, and in this drama they are tightly woven with the romance. It even seems that the romance is part of the political intrigue. In contrast, The King’s Affection seems to be a not very subtle mix of cute romantic comedy and palace intrigue, of which I find the palace intrigue more compelling.
I like the weaving here, and as you say, the romance itself is part of it all- it can’t be separated from it really.
I personally dropped KA at 9, but I did feel when I was still watching it, that the romance elements were straight out of a modern rom com, and felt often out of place in the historical setting.
I feel the same way about KA. It might have worked better if it was a three kingdom-era sageukโmore freedom to explore same-gender relationships, female rulers, etc. Confucian Joseon is way too strict.
Yes! Political intrigues are the very core. I find it fascinating when done right. Jung Ha-yeon and Jung Hyun-min are fantastic at writing political dramas.
Lol maybe I haven’t watched enough of KA to judge, but I totally agree with you. There’s plenty of politics, almost ALL the time (in a way) in red sleeve. Like you said, maybe it’s because the writing in KA is about as smooth as, “hey look, now we’re doing politics! hey! now it’s lovey-dovey romance time!” #justsaying
It helps too that all the events and the main characters of Red Sleeve are living in the shadow of what happened: the King who was capable of putting his son in a rice chest (if he did that what else is he capable of?), a son living under the shadow of a father who went mad and (perhaps) killed over 100 of his attendants (will he go mad too?), and so many people who feel guilty about what happened – the now dead grandmother, the mother, the head court maid (at least reproached as being responsible). The repercussions radiate out and have done so for some time. The transferred guilt is becoming more and more apparent. So there is no separation between the daily lived lives of our characters and the political landscape. It has seeped into everything. It struck me, for example, that San’s actions at the end of episode 7 could have easily been understood in this context. Is this man going to be like his father? Is he capable of killing his attendants? Not for one minute do I think this is in keeping with his character, but that shadow looms over him, especially if you are looking at him from the perspective of the head court lady. The King’s Affection simply does not have such a rich and real historical context.
To be sure, but then a certain class of excellent writer would be able to write good politics and a rich and complex story based on real history or no… ๐
I guess Jumong is considered fantasy. And yeah, that I do love (don’t ask me how many times I’ve rewatched THAT). I agree, it may be because they’re rarely done right. I’m sure I’d love an epic three kingdoms or goryeo era fantasy written by Kim and Park. I guess I definitely don’t love comedy-fantasy sageuk.
All the pretty men with earrings! (I know, not the reason we’re supposed to be excited…or is it) The drama!
I feel like there’s more drama potential with the hwarang thing. I’m not talking about the joke that was the titular 2016 drama. And the hwarangs were my favorite part of Queen Seon Deok; really well-portrayed there imo. And despite not all(or most?) of them in the latter drama being conventionally pretty-boy attractive, they were perfectly cast as hwarangs, moreso than the cast of Hwarang (besides the horrendous writing, I think being TOO pretty-skinny may require too much of a suspension of disbelief that they are also warriors…). Well anyways, comparing those two dramas are unreasonable to begin with…but yes! More Silla/3K epics! (tired of the same 3 people in joseon being the subject of tv tbh).
So off topic but as soon as you said “pretty men with earrings!” I immediately, thought of Gen from the Queen’s Thief Series, which you haven’t read, you should, especially if you like subtle politics, hah!
Pretty men with earrings is totally enough reason to be excited hahah
Oh there’s totally potential in the Hwarang thing! A lot of ripe potential all over Silla if you ask me, who is totally not at all a Silla spy/ Silla bias ๐
I’m with you @sparks121, but I think I’d watch an epic fantasy sageuks by Kim Young-hyun or even Song Ji-na. Kim is more well-versed with Silla and I think @sicarius will love that.
@kiara I guess a 3 kingdoms era/silla drama would be more expensive than a joseon-era show, but perhaps we can get investors/broadcast stations to open their wallets a bit wider if we see sageuks become successful again (namely, red sleeve and taejong). I do miss the visuals of that era (and serious joseon-fatigue). Still remembering those awesome hair accessories of mishil…and gold flower-and-leaf motif earrings…
@kiara good point, but I hope not. Arthdal was A Choice but the whole idea just had too much room for interpretation. I don’t see that issue with a real setting/kingdom/empire/state so hopefully the powers that be feel the same. 😬 ’cause their dramas(when not Ye Old Arthdal Mess) just hit different for me 😩
(cc @kiara)
I’m still not as familiar with these writer’s names as I want to be so I have to keep double checking “ah yes that is who they’re talking about” pffft
Except for Song Ji Na! Who I definitely know, because she wrote Healer. If she’s head writer for a 3K sageuk I would take that in a heart beat haha
Even if Arth’s issue WAS that it was supposed to be Gojoseon (supposed to be), that’s not 3K so they would be cruel to be bias against pre Joseon eras for that! *pouts*
I too miss the visuals of older eras, Sparky. Sigh. River was refreshing on the eyes even if it sucked…
@kiara I ‘ve always wanted to watch Sandglass. It’s somewhat hard to find in good quality and subbed though I think. Highest rated non weekender drama to date.
@sicarius
That one website with the word nice in the end is okay-ish. It’s so old it’s hard to find it in good quality. EYES of DAWN is even harder to find.
Is this man going to be like his father? Is he capable of killing his attendants?
I din’t view Ep.7 ending this way, but then in Ep.8, his determination to poison the second state minister was terrifying. The scene was cool and befit the reaction of a potential king, but for a person who seemed calm and collected, the burst of anger was so sudden, which makes me wonder, how much has the court lady witnessed his actions to think of CP as a threat and also how much The King has seen San’s action as replication of his dad. The drama is really doing a good job of elaborating the reactions of the people
I’d say grandfather taught him well about the way of politics. He lost his son to the throne, and those Norons who put him on the throne are after his grandson.
The arrow with the message in earlier episodes was a warning. What should he do? Wait to die? I’d say take down the big baddie or at least try.
Sado was in a situation where he was driven to madness. Deok-ro can be shady, but I think his ambition will keep San safe, and Deok Im by his side will be of great help.
Yeongjo made an intelligent move by recruiting Minister Seo to help protect San. He is from the Soron camp, the Noron’s enemy camp.
For me it was just a call back to when San told Deok Im he already had so many plans for when he was King, and that he must endure if he ever wants to see them come to fruition. THis is not some idle prince who has been sitting aside, no no, he already has plans for when he becomes regent and eventually takes the throne, and as @kiara says, his grandfather has taught him well.
I just had a chuckle myself, especially when his mum shot down Princess Hwawan, about their titles, who subsequently looses it. Can’t wait till he states before everyone “I am the son of Prince Sado”, changes his father’s name and builds an entire fortress in dedication to him… his enemies are going to loose their frakking minds lmao
I laughed at Hwawan but then felt sorry for her since we know that the king’s mental health is deteriorating and won’t be around to spoil and protect her.
The queen is young but not naive. I think she is using Lady Hye-bin as a shield from Hwawan.
I feel for Hye-bin the most out of all the women in the palace. All her rights as a legal mother to San have been stripped for years. She got demoted and moved out of the palace and had to watch her son grow up from afar.
I love her victory speech, but dang, she is such a spoiler.LOL.
I feel like the politics is more natural, like we watch history happens and love and hate and revenge, ambitions are all woven and tangled and part of it. Whereas TKA needs more drama and politics were introduced to create angst and push things along.
I really liked that this first rejection was done after DeokIm’s meeting with HCL, because it explains better why she didn’t want the tangerine.
As I am sure San is in love with her, and has deep feelings for her, I’m not so sure right now about Deok Im. She feels the attachment to the Crown Prince, because she’s seen the King that he can be and she wants to protect him. She’s see him suffer and struggle with the King (which can be affectionate one minute and extremely violent the other). She knows, as she’s an excellent character observer, that San can make a good King… does it count as romantic love? I don’t think so at this moment.
Does it really matter that a woman is not in love with a man to become a concubine? Of course not. Not in Joseon or anywhere in the world in 18th century.
This is a question I would love to have an answer, will Deok Im go Lizzy Bennet and fall in love with Pemberley… I mean Darcy?
As I know about the real story and how deep was the love San felt for her, I want to think it was reciprocating. She likes San, I’m pretty sure. But does she loves him?
Not sageuk related but her situation reminds me of Empress Masako of Japan and how she continuously rejected Naruhito. This was only 30 years ago.
He’s got his pride and so does she.
I think his princely ego/pride was crushed and he was shocked that a mere court maid would dare reject him. He tried to flex his power to remind her that he is the master as if she doesn’t know that he is the mighty crown prince of Joseon.LOL
I never thought that he would harm her because he adores her but he has a long way to go in order to win her heart.
I think that once he realized how pathetic he was he’d apologize? A prince of Joseon is not expected to apologize to a maid but it’s different when it comes to wooing a free-spirited and headstrong woman.
I’m still catching up and right now San has a loooong way to go to win me back. I’m going to erase how he treated her in order to be able to continue the drama without hoping she stabs him the next time his back is turned.
I started rewatching YISAN because this kind of writing drives me nuts. San was regarded as a benevolent king and it show in the way he treats the women in his life.
This writer is going for unnecessary shock factor and I donโt get where the heck she is taking this.
So let us discuss why the end of EP 7/start of 8 happened the way it did, shall weโฆ
When she first rejects him, San simply leaves; he doesn’t threaten her or make a move although he is upset.
Even after finding out what she ACTUALLY said over chestnuts he doesn’t go to her immediately (although this is partially because he canโt.)
It’s only after two things does, he then act this way.
1. Is his conversation with the King which leaves him emotionally reactionary, as all it does immediately is remind him of his father and to him, his Grandfather’s treatment of his father and grandmother- there is a lot of resentment there, in this version of events. San does not wish to “love” like his grandfather, as to him this symbolises not being able to protect the ones he loves.
He makes a comment about being able to keep DI by his side no matter what- presumably unlike his grandfather (to bad history is a bitch but anyway)
2. Pretty much right after this, he sees Deok Im with her brother. He doesn’t know this is her brother, he doesn’t know why she’s hugging him, he’s been rejected, technically twice, and had a pretty emotionally charged day.
Itโs only THEN that he gets mad.
And, when he does, his dialogue, to me anyway, makes it sound like he feels betrayed, not by her prior rejection alone, but by, on top of everything, seeing her with another man, when she swore her loyalty to him. (I also think the sleeve cuffs were significant to everything somehow, but Iโm not sure how.)
My impression of this is that itโs more of a triple emotional reaction to everything.
I am not personally 100% convinced this writing choice makes perfect sense? that is, I think the writing around it couldโve been tighter, so we understood the motivations of everyone involved a bit better, but I donโt think itโs just about him getting mad she rejected him. I think thereโs more going on there. I think it was a very well-acted and high-tension and intense scene, and it wasnโt supposed to be truly romantic, rather point to the finer complexities in their relationship.
For me Iโm okay with this happening, as allowing the characters to make certain decisions, whether one agrees with them or likes them or not, is how a story develops, but only if there is actually purpose for them happening.
That is, right now, I am struggling to figure out *why* that scene was placed where it was in the narrative, especially since they havenโt addressed it again, when it feels like it should be something that should be resolved, have a follow up, or be a developmental point at some point (and if it were me, definitely before what happened at the end of 8โฆ)
So putting aside whether our modern sensibilities clash with this or not,
Why do you think San reacted like this, through a contextual and historical lens, as well as a metatextual one, and does it make sense for the writing to do this, with or without a follow up?
Reading what you have written, I agree with San’s behavior. But I feel like the events leading up to one another wasn’t portrayed very well. These little things that happened to him throughout the day felt disconnected. I don’t know if there needed to be more tension–but I didn’t get the sense that all these things were piling on top of each other, which led to his outburst. It makes sense, but the episode definitely didn’t convey it well. As well, I don’t think they needed to directly address what happened in the library, but at least they could have acknowledged what happened by showing us Deokim’s reaction. She was frazzled at the end of the scene but only for a minute. And then everything was normal again. And then suddenly she was hugging him with her eyes closed, sighing. It all felt so disconnected. I definitely loved the other parts of the episode. The Queen’s Book scenes were so well done, and everyone’s acting was on point. The King and Deokim were great, and San was in a completely different world as he just realized she was the little girl. And everything played out beautifully. But although Deokim and San didn’t address what happened that day, it was weird that Deokim wasn’t more affected.
I am glad I am not the only one who feels like the writing and contextual set up for this scene was somewhat lacking. I mention below that the pacing was awkward this week, and that definitely contributes to this.
There needed to be a bit more to everything, for the scene to work the most effectively.
I was left confused and unsatisfied with the infamous choke hold. Even after everything was eloquently explained like you did, the lack of an address to the event and follow up made it worse. Ok I’m with you on all the points. Besides being wide-eye (ok I love her but recently I noticed her default reaction to him and most things are just being wide eye shocked …there has to be other way to convey emotion right??) she wasn’t seem as scared and shaken as someone who was just told by their master that he could pretty much have her killer at anything time. It felt anticlimactic and because the lack of follow up on such momental interaction in their relationship, it’s so out of character for her to be like , whelp, have some laundry to do so I’m just going to go on with my day. I said out of character because, previously, we saw that when she’s annoyed or frustrated with him, she would throw rocks (or salt) and verbalize her anger but this time not even one thing.
And then, to only think about how he half heartedly try to save her by exiling her in shame, as something she’s grateful for, I’m just confused.
The hug at the end of #8 felt flat. There gotta be better way to reveal such childhood connection than, my name is San. I can’t help but thought of how Red Sky did it …but I won’t get into that.
The events of the day lead to San back to the library, trying to figure out how to deal with everything that happened that day: from the rejected tangerine to the blue sleeve cuffs (that covered the red cuffs and then makes Deok Im not his anymore). San is in conflict, he wants to protect Deok Im at all costs and wants her in his life, but she’s just slipping through his fingers and he doesn’t want to lose her neither abuse her and make her by his side just by his command (that’s why he left after the tangerine rejection).
But then, please, let’s keep in mind this is Joseon 18th century and that he is the Crown Prince. He’s balanced and has lived all his life as the perfect grandson. We know San is good, we know he is considered and balanced. But he is a man, a powerful man, he will be a King, he’s used to have things done his way. He doesn’t usually get a no as a answer from those below him.
So he’s there in the library trying to figure out what the hell is going wrong with Deok Im. And she shows up. And the first thing he asks is: “Did you come here to find me?” He’s just willing to hear she is and then he would forget everything that happened during the day. But clueless DeokIm tells the truth: she’s there on an errand.
And that’s when San goes mad. His reaction is childish and of a jealous and betrayed man. He’s assuming what he thinks is real and he doesn’t care to listen to her or even ask her (why you rejected the tangerine, who’s the man who gave you those cuff sleeves that cover my cuff sleeves…). It’s Deok Im who asks what is his mind, and he’s so angry with himself about being thinking about her that he lets his anger out, and when you this you just want to hurt the one you are talking to: he wanted his words to hurt deeply DeokIm, who had already said would protect him no matter what.
I praise Deok Im for being true to herself and tell him (as with the tangerine, I know I’m being repetitive) that she can take her own decisions even about things other may find trivial and she’s not totally his which makes him even more angry and frustrated. I’m not validating his behaviour, but it just makes sense.
As for Deok Im response… I know we all want something more, but… I still keep in mind that she’s a court lady, she’s been living in the palace half of her life… she knows how things go (the same way I know how things go around my crazy boss and I just have to say aha every time she says something stupid or blames me for something I haven’t done).
One of the things I’m not really happy about the drama is how it deals with time jumps (well, I’m never happy with this in any drama actually). From the library scene to the moment she helps imp court lady or when the book is found we just don’t know how long it’s been.
The something more I wanted was for her to 🗡 him. Or at least start plotting her escape from this now ill-fated romance and servitude. Maybe @mmmmm is right and I’ve become blood thirsty. Or maybe I’ve been influenced by @sicarius? 🤔
One more thing. Almost everytime we have a significant moment between San and Deok Im, the scene fades on a pear blossom which among many other meanings has this one: love and affection for one’s beloved.
@sicarius I believe that San reacted with anger because Deok Im contradicted his belief that her entire being (body, mind, and soul) belongs to him. Also, I believe that the words of his personal guard did not help either. The guard told San not to put too much stock in what he had overheard her say to the other court ladies. Also, seeing Deok Im with her brother just added more fuel to the fire. I believe that his reaction does make sense. He is very much ruled by his emotions when it comes to Deok Im.
Ha! From this angle (his reaction was a follow up of his day’s event) it does make sense, but I though it was his frustration over the fact, she wasn’t being serious about his feelings.
He tells her,he cares about her (during the bath), he gives her a valuable mandarin, has been thinking about her all the time and gives her all clues that he is attracted, but she rejects him and continues to be informal, which he considers as stringing him along.
IMO, her treating his feelings lightly, opened his can of frustration, so he gives her a warning.
Agree on the time jump that Deok Im just go with the laundry after that neck grabbing. When CP propose to have Deok Im in exile instead of facing the King, I thought CP still mad at her and Deok Im also mad at him because he’s not helping her by sending her to exile. But CP really know how’s the King attitude, sending Deok Im to the King is like sending her head away and it is what happen, the punishment getting worst. So he must risky his life again to save Deok Im. But sadly it’s not addresses it well, I don’t see that Deok Im understand why CP choose to exile her than facing the King. Part of it because CP would rather have Deok Im alive somewhere and can’t be with any other man, than having her dead (even though history speaking, he’ll be live for over a decade without her)
@emsel You mentioned Wol Haeโs fight was with a hairpin, in the hangout thread.
It was actually a knife Wol Hae had on her body, when she attacked her would-be-attackers, not a hair pin. Although obviously I wish for more knife-binyeos, she had her hair in the daenggi meori style, and therefore wouldn’t have been wearing a binyeo.
Now, what it COULDโVE been, is an eunjangdo, a type of small silver knife worn by men and women alike, and often worn by women for self defense.
Fun fact about the eunjangdo:
It was often part of one of the most common and famous hanbok accessories of the time, the norigae. The norigae was an ornamental accessory made up from three basic parts, the knot, the ornament, and the tassel, and hung from either the hanbok coat strings or the skirt; Deok Imโs ornament given to her by the Head Court Lady is a norigae.
Yes, these could sometimes also include a knife attached to the ornament. How cool is that. (A: Very Cool. Or it is to me, who likes knives.)
Eunjangdo norigae were known to have sometimes also contained a set of chopsticks, so that when people ate out, they could use chopsticks that they knew were safe from poisoning.
From mandarinmansion.com: โSilver tarnishes quickly when it touches arsenic sulfides, and so these are said to be able to detect arsenic poisoning.โ
HOWSOMEEVER- to me, the knife Wol Hae used looked a bit too big and long to be an eunjangdo, reminding me more of a short tantล, or kaiken, – a Japanese long knife- both in size and shape.
She also pulled it out of her sleeve, rather than it being attached at her waist or breast, and it is not silver.
Kaiken were 20-25cm long, which is the approximate length of this knife, as you can tell from the size of her hand against it, whereas, although it was a bit timely to find details on their length, most eunjangdo I saw were listed as 3, 3 ยฝ, 4 inches, so on average 10 cm.
The Japanese kaiken, was worn similarly to the eunjangdo by women, attached to or hidden in their obi (the sash over the kimono), for self defense.
If Korea had their own equivalent of the kaiken, I cannot find its name.
From what I understand, Joseon Korea valued the Confucian scholar, over the skill of the warrior or martial artist, so a lot of Korean martial arts and crafts is much harder to find information on, in comparison to say, Japan.
Antique Korean arms of any kind are thus incredibly rare, additionally influenced by rigorous disarmament under Japanese Occupation.
Bit annoying for someone interested in antiques, historic Korea, AND weaponsโฆ
It wouldโve been cool for the drama to have made a reference to the eunjangdo, and the many uses of the norigae ornaments, but the kind of sageuk I want to see, with excessive focus on such details, is probably not as palatable for the average viewer looking for a tragic love story based on history. *Why yes I would watch hrs and hrs of content about traditional and historical Korean life and details filmed in the manner of the Kingdom opening credits scene, why do you ask* *no, the reason I loved TWDR so much had nothing to do with me being a Lingy geek, not at all* *maybe I should just switch to documentariesโฆ * Ahem.
She was quick, although in fairness, her attackers were very slow. Perhaps a bit… too slow.
But as she was fast, and aimed for the vital spots, and it was shot ok, I will let any other discrepancies with the scene slide…
Per the actress’s ig, it’s not an eunjangdo. She just said it’s a short sword(lit. translation; ๋จ๊ฒ). But no indication on a specific kind (so it could be any variety of small/short knife, sword, dagger…you get the point).
I mean I know it’s not an eunjangdo, I just wanted to type out why and my findings hehe
It’s really hard to find information on historic Korean weapons, you have no idea, so yes, I definitely get the point haha.
It’s probable that dangeom, as per its literal translation (short sword, dagger, and which I didn’t look up for some reason haha), is, and was, simply a term for many different kinds of short bladed weapons, like tanto class weapons in Japan.
As I found reference to a dangeom (๋จ๊ฒ) in my rabbit hole the other day, but the information on it didn’t match what she actually had, so I dismissed it. One source said it was a knife usually with a curved handle, another said it was a bronze double edged short sword. The swords in Geommu, a traditional form of sword dance, also use another kind of dan geom.
If it meant a certain kind in particular at one point, it’s possible it has lost any specific meaning in modern use.
I found this to be a littleโฆ over the top myself. Itโs not that Head Court ladies couldnโt and didnโt wield a lot of power, I just found the portrayal of this to be a little too … campy almost… for the story. It got kinda dark and weird real quick there all of a sudden.
Like oh they have a secret ritualistic story, a secret lair, a secret manifesto, a secret document of signaturesโฆ do they have a blood ritual and a secret handshake too? It reminded me of Tree With Deep Roots, and yet somehow I feel like it worked better in TWDRโฆ
Iโm guessing this part of the story is from the novel?
As is the Head Court Ladyโs revenge and backstory, leading to Crown Prince Sadoโs death. I guess it makes sense for them to heavily fictionalise this and use it as a plot for the villain, especially since there is much debate, as far as I know, about what caused Sado to end up the way he did- and that thus would be ripe for fictionalising.
None of this is historical though, Iโm pretty sure, just so people know- @kiara can correct me if Iโm wrong.)
(It’s also probably high treason for them to have a fake throne and a burnt royal robe that they place themselves over in a position of authorityโฆ)
Ha, I agree the secret society was definitely not as well written as TWDR, but really, who writes fictional/fusion sageuks better than the Kim/Park duo? (which reminds me, mbc needs to bring them an offering of a sh*t ton of money and creative freedom to do another another 50+ ep sageuk ASAP)
This is not a meaningful contribution to the discussion, but I personally am not opposed to camp/makjang. 😂 I definitely understand the WTF around it though. Not the most smoothly executed part of this drama.
Not directed to you, Sicarius, but for those doubting how a court lady could be this powerful: the Jejo Sanggoong (head court lady; Jo in this drama) was indeed a very powerful figure. They were in charge of both small and large tasks related to the inner court, even things that male officials could not interfere in (as they were matters of women), as well as directly receive/relay the king’s orders. They were indeed often involved in politics.
But yes, the cult-like meeting in the drama was almost hilarious. I was kinda hoping they would be meeting in a large dimly-lit room instead, with them sitting in rows with Head Court Lady Jo at the head…I love when they’re meeting at night in dark rooms to conspire in sageuks lol.
I am not opposed to camp either, actually, but I think it doesn’t fit THIS particular drama, or the tone we’ve established so far. Not well anyway. As you say, not the most smoothly executed.
I too thought they should’ve been meeting in a dimly lit room! I felt that setting would be more appropriate hahaha.
I’ve said as much before, but I am ALL about the dark-room-conspiring in sageuks, ha.
It’s probably due to the long drought of half-way decent, non-fluff or fantasy sageuks, but I don’t have as many criticisms about the lack of smoothness in the most recent episodes as others do (not that they’re unwarranted). Personally I’m just glad to have a sageuk that doesn’t make me cringe, roll my eyes, and/or bore me to tears.
@sicarius YES. It MUST. May Red Sleeves’ good ratings energy transfer to Taejong after its end. I think we can we can count on one hand the number of sageuks that were not of the fluff/rom-com/fantasy variety for the last FIVE years. (ones worth mentioning, at least. And the awful tv chosun ones starring jin se yeon do NOT count) I beg you, Kim Young Hyun, Park Sang Yeon-nims, please ditch Arthdal(sorry, fans-of-the-show) and start making a new epic!
I am forever hopeful that Arthdal’s continuous and for now indefinite postponement of its 2nd Seasons, means it will simply… slip into oblivion, and never happen.
(tip re. notifs: no need to tag me, this is my post so I get a notification both whenever someone comments on this post in general, AND replies to a parent comment of mine, which is … every time someone comments on this thread also… pfft ^^)
I can still tell they have “it” as writers; just feels like the ancient era they chose as inspiration was just too steeped in myth and they just went too trigger-happy with the world-building. Just make a goryeo or three-kingdoms epic!
I wanted to see song joong ki in another sageuk penned by them since TWDR was what convinced me he was REALLY a good actor, but damn, arthdal was not it lol. (Hmm, song joong ki in a three-kingdoms- or goryeo-era look…)
Arthdal should’ve either committed to being a terribly campy fantasy only, and gone all out on the fantasy elements, or gone for a more historical route. It couldn’t be both, and it was entirely unfocused in anything it wanted to be and did, and it failed miserably. It did at least produce, however, some great memes. Viva La Magic Horse.
TWDR was what convinced me SJK could act as well ohmygosh haha.
This *It reminded me of Tree With Deep Roots* but for some reason it made sense for me. We know the eunuchs were powerful in China, why not the court maids? Or is it that I love the idea of a secret society of court maids – the power behind the throne. The setting was evocative and powerfully subversive. It generates a foundational mythology that gives power and continuity to the role of the court maid. If it’s not authentic, I wish it had been. I am loving the flipped perspective of the court that this is giving us. I’m guessing this is where the big bad is going to come from, but I’m hoping it’s nuanced so that we continue to see it from the perspective of the women, rather than just the perspective of one very power-hungry woman (which it could easily become).
I found the imagery (the styling, the execution, the direction) too over the top and I guess, not subtle enough, to be very evocative to me personally. I cringed rather than got goosebumps, for example.
The masks, the setting, the myth, the hand signing, but most significantly the throne the HCL sat on and the discarded and burnt royal robes… I understand that the imagery here was on purpose, and perhaps was supposed to draw attention to the HCL’s personal ambition … but I found it tacky… not subversive… haha
Unless that was again the point, and supposed to highlight the HCL’s ambition getting out of hand, and power once again becoming something corrupt, instead of authority being used for good, her own ideals eventually corrupting her. *shrugs*
Yea what’s the point of the masks. Shouldn’t everyone know who’s part of the group at this point. And what’s the need for the handprints, can you tell one person from another by the handprints (if you already had the signature?). And why force someone to be part of this, you think you wouldn’t want to open membership to everyone who’s not willing. This is not Amazon prime, more doesn’t mean better.
They should have stuck with her motivation being wanting to protect 700 other CLs. Why add tHis? Maybe they need more materials to fill the chapters/episodes.
While I was watching, I could only think about this: where is this? Where is this building and how they are hiding inside the palace with no one knowing? Then it came up to me it was a mobile construction (like the folding screen but on a major scale), but then I thought… how the hell no know about this big panels and all the torches? It can’t be out of the palace… how can 60 or more court ladies get out of the palace and no one noticing? And if it’s a mobile set… what about that throne.
So yes, all over the top, and I confess it dragged me a little off the drama.
As if it’s on the novel, the person I follow on IG that is actually reading the novel hasn’t mentioned it yet. I think I’ll ask her…
Agree that this setting was too showy and OTT for the purpose of a secret society. They would have used the time-honored three-person-cell construct so that if one is caught only two others go down with them. However, for the purpose of establishing the big-bad in this drama, it worked.
I have asked my IG friend and she told me there is nothing of the kind in the novel, and so far she’s already in the moment San is already King Jeongjo and has taken Deokro’s sister as concubine (although he just stays seated in the room because he considers her a child).
So yes, it’s just a drama invention that we all hope MBC keeps it to the minumum!
Eww Deok ro manages to make his sister San’s concubine? Well she is a child and its irksome how Deok ro just wants to use her for his benefit well just like TKA or probably every royal marriage I’ve seen in sageuks. I want to praise Kang Hoon here, he’s doing grey well. While Deok ro isn’t equal portions black and white, there are moments where what he does makes sense. Especially as San sees things as black and white he needs someone like Deok Ro to actually move in the world as the King.
1. And then I was thinking just last night โactually the palace was massive, and there were probably lots of corners in the Gardens for secret lovers to meetโโฆ so possibly? there was a space for a secret court lady cult meeting lmao. Perhaps not so much the private dungeon though…
They called it a name thoughโฆ I wonder if thatโs in reference to anywhere real. *will I go look or will I procrastinate this till it never happens*
It dragged me out of the drama a bit too, I think I laughed haha.
2. That’s interesting it is not in the novel! And even more interesting then that they decided to add it… hmmm
3. I thought Deok Ro’s sister became a concubine after Deok Im died but I guess I got that wrong. @wapzy yes, I hinted to it above, but yes Deok Ro imposes his own ambition on his sister and manages to get her a place as San’s concubine. I believe? that she actually ends up bearing San’s heir, after Deok Im and all their children die. ๐
He took another concubine, the one who was the mother of his children after Deok Im died, but she was not Deokroโs sister as far as I know (and Wikipediaโs has confirmed)
I enjoyed the introduction of the secret society of court ladies (even if it probably doesn’t make much sense). I don’t much like the Head Court Lady, but I do believe that her desires to protect the other court ladies is genuine.
– The Textual and Sexual Tension of the entire first half of episode 7 when they can think of nothing but each other. Or in Sanโs case her tattoo, cos he was a naughty boy and PEEKED.
– Just from a colour theory point of view, his green and navy hanbok is DELICIOUS. The lime green against the deep indigo blue? I am in LOVE. Who thought of that colour combination, they need a raise.
In comparison, Princess Hwawan always dresses overly ostentatiously with excessive embroidery and layers, which places her nicely in contrast to both the Queen and Sanโs Mother.
– @emsel, I also noticed a great deal many other kinds of hanbok worn by various court ladies this episode, supporting my theory that different colours signify a different role. The Inspector Court Ladies had blue uppers, as well as several types of more aprony type overcoats being worn, that reminded me more of the hanboks worn by Joseon nurses.
– Iโve always wondered how they held stuff in their sleeves without things falling out, and for some reason I am only just now noticing that the voluminous sleeves of Sanโs hanbok were stiched along their opening. Have all hanboks have this and Iโm only just noticing now?
Anyway, the magic trick with the mandarin was cute.
– The King crying as Deok Im told the story, (and the selective memory from ALL participants involved lol)
– Does anyone know what the weird target/ clothes looking things in that private garden are, and what their significance is? Is it a reference to something historically or?
– The hug was cute thoughโฆ
– On a technical note, I found the pacing of these two episodes to be a bit more uneven and not as smooth or cohesive as Iโd like; events seemed more clipped together rather than natural progressions of each other, this was always a bit of a thing, I think? But it was more noticeable this week, which worries me for the future, but weโll just see how that goes.
– โThe House of the Lonely Dogโ–
Unrelated to the drama but there is a famous NZ painter called Ivan Clarke who is known for his โLonely Dogโ painting series, and that was my first thought when I saw that scene, after of course the designated and obligatory โawwwwโ at the name and the backstory.
Kites, hmmm, that could be possible. The written piece under one that Deok Im read was “Fight and Resist”, and it made me think they were somehow military pendants of some kind.
I just want to mention the hanboks as well. Weโre they really this colorful back then? But yes, they are the prettiest and I noticed them immediately from the 2โnd scene with all the little court girls sitting around Deok-Im.
“Were they really this colourful”- oh how I wish I had my own copy of Chromatopia: An Illustrated History of Color…
Well “back then” is only the 1790s. Only a little over 200 years ago, and not say, 1500. Which means there were significantly more dyes and pigments available, and maritime trade was much easier, what with the age of sail.
But even if this were Silla, the effect of the Silk Road on trade has time and time again be proven… and also Silla was rich af.
Without more research, I can’t say if these EXACT pigments would’ve been available, but it is my understanding of history of fashion, that yes, absolutely, people dressed colourfully in the past, from Rome to Chang’an. Plus he’s … yaknow… the prince.
OMG I loooove these. Lonely dog, ❤️❤️❤️ Bo sends the artist some bones 🦴🦴🦴🦴 and wants to let him know, he’ll arrive in Christchurch on Thursday. He has now decided to wear a white suit and to team it with his sunnies. He’ll throw the mask away. Styleeeee
I’m in love with San in all the color, I thought blue was it (the one in all the promo posters) but then there’s the lime green and I’m like this is it. But then the preview has him in purple so…maybe someone bless us with a collection of GIFS or screenshots of San in all the different colorful hanboks
Oh my gosh thank you!!!! So they are both kites, and technically military pendants/banners haha.
Now, do we know WHY they were used in this scene other than summation?
There were mentions that the kite that Deok-im specifically look at has the sign of “wrestle and fight!” which San shouts out during the preview for ep 9. Maybe we will see the significant next week?
If you read at the link I posted before, the twitt: Deok Im is looking at one that says “fight and resist” which is a line San says in the preview of episode 9.
Does anyone else recognize the setting of this “secret place” as the same used to sequester the second prince in Rookie Historian? Guess I’ve watched too many sageuks and am starting to recognize historical shoot locations as well as various and sundry cliffs of doom.
Yeahp well… when there are really only a certain amount of buildings still standing from the era, and x amount of sageuk sets… they get recycled don’t they? heheh (The Cliff of doom on the other hand… surely there are more cliffs of doom in Korea hah!~)
Personally I get a little excited whenever I see a location from the Secret Garden of Huwon at Changdeokgung… but that’s just me haha
The sleeve pockets!!! Ahaha I was so glad i found out how they hid scrolls in those long sleeves. It is stitched! What a revelation! I don’t think I’ve ever seen the sleeves in such clarity or that angle thus I could never tell how those things don’t fall off. I didn’t like the hug honestly because it seemed that only San had reminisced that memory, never Deok Im so I have no idea why she was equally happy. Lol i first saw this thread at 50 comments and now there are 73 already. Good luck with the notifs sic.
Also LDH and LSY acted so well in the scene where she was narrating what happened in the the funeral. Junho’s performance left sth to be desired and maybe a scene after that about him contemplating about finding DI would’ve made the last scene more poignant. I’m guessing many scenes in this episode may have been edited out because it was incoherent at quite some places.
:/ Yeah I’m… worried about how that editing/pacing/directing will effect the latter half of the story… even more reasons why this should’ve been 20 episodes or longer. Sigh.
Same re. the sleeves!!!! Hahaha
I do think the hug was sweet but upon farther reflection I wish there was… more set up to it, and the writing of it was tighter. Oh well.
@kiara Thank you for your link to the Daily Kos article. I am very interested in the period leading up to the military dictatorship, during its repressive reign and in its aftermath. If you ever care to share any interesting English language articles/books about the above, I would be very grateful.
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๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:45 PM
The RED SLEEVE: Episodes 7 & 8 WALL HANGOUT and DISCUSSION THREAD
Okay first of all, so many things happened in these two episodes.
Secondly, I may have gone down like a three-hr long rabbit hole about knives. There was very little in this episode about it, but thatโs just how my brain works so youโre getting the results of the rabbit hole whether you asked for it or not. (Like the time I spent a couple of hours trying to find out what kind of rapt0r was used in Inspector and Joy Ep 5/6 as their messenger bird. I concluded it was a goshawk, for anyone that was wonderingโฆ)
All my thoughts are below in diff comments because I havenโt figured out the best way to format these yet and I have lots of thoughts lmao. *braces self for notification overload*
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:46 PM
@yongsital, @ladynightshade, @jorobertson, @kiara, @mrsz6, @missh, @marcusnyc20, @lindag, @hanie, @bbstl, @velvetstuff, @magajesj, @kurama, @wapzy, @neener, @susanf, @epyc2010, @emsel, @jillian, @eazal, @ramenqueen, @caro77, @ndlessjoie, @dncingemma, @jossie4cheryl, @sparks121, @snowflower, @cozybooks , @jingbee, @peony, @claire2009, @ally-le you didnโt ask for the tag but I thought you might like it, let me know if you want taken off haha.
Once again, if anyone would like to be added, or removed, just let me know.
Episode 5 & 6 WALL HANGOUT THREAD
kiara
December 5, 2021 at 7:30 PM
Sic, I didnโt expect this till tomorrow. Thank you so much! I appreciate your hard work and I hope you are feeling better. ❤️
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:33 PM
I’ve had too many thoughts rolling round in my head to let them fester for another day hahaha. It’s Monday here already anyway.
It took me well over a week, and I still have a cough, but at least in terms of that side of things, I am feeling much better.
kiara
December 5, 2021 at 11:08 PM
Good to hear that you are feeling better.
I haven’t finished watching episode 8 yet. It’s so easy to veer off into different directions with this show. I can’t just watch it all the way through. I’m constantly pausing to lookup more info and geek over it. haha
Too many distractions this weekend, so hopefully. I’ll finish watching it by tomorrow.
Jingbee
December 5, 2021 at 8:38 PM
Thanks for the tag. I wanted in so I fully appreciate this.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 12:10 AM
@pinkyp ๐
Kurama
December 6, 2021 at 12:46 AM
First, I’m not sure to understand the comparison with The King’s Affection. They have different source, a manhwa for TKA and a novel for Red Sleeve. One is completely original and plays with gender, the other is based on history with real events and characters.
I like how the writer use Sado without showing him and how his shadow is lingering above the main characters. The King uses it to scare people ” I killed my own son, nobody is safe”, the Head Lady Court is using him as an excuse to her decisions, Hyebin Hong’s position is complicated, San’s love is torn between his father and his grandfather, he must prove that he’s different.
For Red Sleeves, after 8 episodes, San didn’t really show any growth because the politics are slow and his love story too. There were some events like the tiger, the Princess Hwawan’s lies about his life but we didn’t see him really taking action except to save Deok-Im. But it ended up with the King taking the decision. We don’t really know what his secret group is doing. In his personnal life, he still doesn’t understand Deok-Im’s stand point.
At least, Head Court Lady showed her true face.
Deok-Im is not in a confortable situation. She has feelings for the CP but the Head Court Lady is trying to use them agains the person she loves… The CP himself is stubborn. After 8 episodes, I wonder how the writer will accelarate the story, I remember in Scarlet, the characters got closer to each other in the time jump. I really hope they won’t do that.
For once, the FL didn’t relive their one scene as kids in each episode like it was the best thing in her life. So I was kinda surprised that she hugged him too at the end. The last time they shared a skinship, it wasn’t a good one…
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 11:25 AM
I think, for now, San is partial to his father since he was taken from him at a very young age, and he has been suppressing the painful memories of his father lashing out at him.
From the flashback in episode 2:
San tries to say goodbye to his parents but instead is met with Sado’s wrath.
San: I wanted to say a proper goodbye to father, His Highness.
Crown Princess Hye-bin: He just wanted to say farewell to his parents. Do you not know your own soon?
Crown Prince Sado: (yelling at San) I don’t even know my parents. Would I know my son? Go away! His Majesty said he is only taking you with him!
San outside: Grandfather is only taking me. Then what about father…
Sado: I’m not needed as long as that child exists! He was born to kill me.
This is not the Sado that San remembers in episode 7.
I think in due time, San will understand his grandfather and that he sacrificed his father to save him, and that everything that he is doing now is to protect him.
This is such a compelling dilemma that can be interpreted in so many ways.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:57 PM
I think the comparison to KA comes from how each show deals with the political side of their stories, which both have, because they’re both still sageuks, albeit very different kinds yes, and commentary on writing politics in sageuks in general.
iaintgotnoname
December 9, 2021 at 6:03 PM
To me, I was thinking she hugged San because she was touched, and also because the scene was aiming to be a direct contrast to the end of ep 7 beginning of ep 8, in that scene the CP (San is in his Dragon Robes) is cornering Deok-Im in a dark library demanding she acknowledge that he owns her completely and of course he grabs her throat in one hand to intimidate her and remind her she is completely in his power. By the end of episode 8 I think San has mostly redeemed himself in her eyes, he goes out of his way to try and protect Deok-Im even if doing so doesn’t benefit him in any way and is in fact quite risky for him. That last scene they are in the garden, broad daylight with nothing confining Deok-Im and San is not in royally distinct clothing, in that moment San isconfessing that he was the boy she had met so long ago, and though I don’t think the encounter with San specifically was super important to Deok-Im, but that overall event was critical in forming her opinions on the type of person she wanted to be and the type of life she wanted to lead in the palace, so of course she remembers everything about the day. I think in that moment Deok-Im was touched that this boy who turned out to be the Crown Prince had held that moment in HIS mind so dearly, and that he had considered her a friend that he would be so happy to meet again after all those years. So in that moment, he isn’t the Crown Prince, but San, an old friend, so I feel that in that moment she felt they were equal and was happy to return the hug.
SooHa
December 16, 2021 at 12:01 AM
Very thank you to answer the question that I keep since Deok In hug back the crown prince =D
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:49 PM
Comment was deleted
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:51 PM
ON DEOK IM:
It came across to me, that Deok Imโs initial rejection of San, is heavily influenced by the Head Court Lady wishing and pressuring her to be a concubine, in order for Deok Im to be the HCLโs person, and not Sanโs. As well as her wishing to retain some of her autonomy as a person, and her being free spirited, Deok Im has already sworn her whole-hearted allegiance to the Prince, till her death, and just last episode at that. This allegiance is then challenged by the Head Court Ladyโs, not once, but twice in these episodes. Deok Im rejects her, much more easily I might add, than she rejects the Prince himself.
Becoming a concubine at the request of anyone else might be seen to her, as a betrayal of her allegiance to San (ironic considering he gets angry about this anyway, but more discussion on that below.)
Because there are more than just the power dynamics between San and Deok Im, if they wish to be romantically involved, at play here.
The Queen offers Deok Im a place in HER Palace, stating that she can offer a kind of protection she canโt get anywhere else, and that the Prince has a lot of enemies.
The Head Court Lady doesnโt want San to be king, and is already plotting against him- one of those angles being getting a court lady to be his concubine which would give her power, if she can guarantee that court ladyโs loyalty.
On top of that you have San who wants to both love better than his grandfather, and both honour his father and his grandfather, but be different from them both as well, and to rule justly and wisely, and strongly, as King of his people.
And then there are power dynamics again between the different members of the court, allies and enemies of San, the Princess Hwawan vs Lady Hye Gyung, and Hong Deok Roโs unsatiable ambition vs his loyalty to the Prince.
Thrown on the top of everything is Deok Im, who already has the trust (and the heart) of the Crown Prince, and has already shown her worth through her own loyalty to him, and as someone who can use her position to great effect on events. This places a target on her head to any of the above players. She is a threat to the HCL if the HCL cannot ensure her loyalty, and she is a potential threat to Deok Ro, who wishes to place his own sister beside San as concubine (heโs a great older brother lol).
I saw a comment say that this has less court politics than Kingโs Affection- Iโd be tempted to disagree, I think this has plenty of politicky going on but a lot of it is inferred and more subtle than in your face. Thatโs my impression anyway.
Snow Flower
December 5, 2021 at 7:04 PM
The political intrigues are the bread and butter of sageuks, and in this drama they are tightly woven with the romance. It even seems that the romance is part of the political intrigue. In contrast, The King’s Affection seems to be a not very subtle mix of cute romantic comedy and palace intrigue, of which I find the palace intrigue more compelling.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:38 PM
I like the weaving here, and as you say, the romance itself is part of it all- it can’t be separated from it really.
I personally dropped KA at 9, but I did feel when I was still watching it, that the romance elements were straight out of a modern rom com, and felt often out of place in the historical setting.
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 12:19 AM
I feel the same way about KA. It might have worked better if it was a three kingdom-era sageukโmore freedom to explore same-gender relationships, female rulers, etc. Confucian Joseon is way too strict.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 12:38 AM
Comment was deleted
kiara
December 5, 2021 at 11:54 PM
Yes! Political intrigues are the very core. I find it fascinating when done right. Jung Ha-yeon and Jung Hyun-min are fantastic at writing political dramas.
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 7:45 PM
Lol maybe I haven’t watched enough of KA to judge, but I totally agree with you. There’s plenty of politics, almost ALL the time (in a way) in red sleeve. Like you said, maybe it’s because the writing in KA is about as smooth as, “hey look, now we’re doing politics! hey! now it’s lovey-dovey romance time!” #justsaying
dramalover4ever
December 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM
It helps too that all the events and the main characters of Red Sleeve are living in the shadow of what happened: the King who was capable of putting his son in a rice chest (if he did that what else is he capable of?), a son living under the shadow of a father who went mad and (perhaps) killed over 100 of his attendants (will he go mad too?), and so many people who feel guilty about what happened – the now dead grandmother, the mother, the head court maid (at least reproached as being responsible). The repercussions radiate out and have done so for some time. The transferred guilt is becoming more and more apparent. So there is no separation between the daily lived lives of our characters and the political landscape. It has seeped into everything. It struck me, for example, that San’s actions at the end of episode 7 could have easily been understood in this context. Is this man going to be like his father? Is he capable of killing his attendants? Not for one minute do I think this is in keeping with his character, but that shadow looms over him, especially if you are looking at him from the perspective of the head court lady. The King’s Affection simply does not have such a rich and real historical context.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:21 PM
To be sure, but then a certain class of excellent writer would be able to write good politics and a rich and complex story based on real history or no… ๐
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 8:39 PM
Agreed; I don’t love fantasy/fluff but other sageuks without historical basis have done the subgenre better than KA.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:59 PM
100%
I must confess though … Fantasy sageuks are my crack, but they’re rarely done to a level I actually like and rate haha.
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 9:04 PM
I guess Jumong is considered fantasy. And yeah, that I do love (don’t ask me how many times I’ve rewatched THAT). I agree, it may be because they’re rarely done right. I’m sure I’d love an epic three kingdoms or goryeo era fantasy written by Kim and Park. I guess I definitely don’t love comedy-fantasy sageuk.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 9:10 PM
SILLA EPIC FANTASY SAGEUK WHEN. That’s literally my greatest wish from dramaland, a well done 3K/Silla Epic fantasy, lmao.
(Too bad the closest thing in coming years is gonna be the Hongs next drama- I am cursed I tell you, cursed.)
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 9:23 PM
All the pretty men with earrings! (I know, not the reason we’re supposed to be excited…or is it) The drama!
I feel like there’s more drama potential with the hwarang thing. I’m not talking about the joke that was the titular 2016 drama. And the hwarangs were my favorite part of Queen Seon Deok; really well-portrayed there imo. And despite not all(or most?) of them in the latter drama being conventionally pretty-boy attractive, they were perfectly cast as hwarangs, moreso than the cast of Hwarang (besides the horrendous writing, I think being TOO pretty-skinny may require too much of a suspension of disbelief that they are also warriors…). Well anyways, comparing those two dramas are unreasonable to begin with…but yes! More Silla/3K epics! (tired of the same 3 people in joseon being the subject of tv tbh).
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 11:47 PM
So off topic but as soon as you said “pretty men with earrings!” I immediately, thought of Gen from the Queen’s Thief Series, which you haven’t read, you should, especially if you like subtle politics, hah!
Pretty men with earrings is totally enough reason to be excited hahah
Oh there’s totally potential in the Hwarang thing! A lot of ripe potential all over Silla if you ask me, who is totally not at all a Silla spy/ Silla bias ๐
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 1:02 PM
I’m with you @sparks121, but I think I’d watch an epic fantasy sageuks by Kim Young-hyun or even Song Ji-na. Kim is more well-versed with Silla and I think @sicarius will love that.
sparks121
December 6, 2021 at 1:11 PM
@kiara I guess a 3 kingdoms era/silla drama would be more expensive than a joseon-era show, but perhaps we can get investors/broadcast stations to open their wallets a bit wider if we see sageuks become successful again (namely, red sleeve and taejong). I do miss the visuals of that era (and serious joseon-fatigue). Still remembering those awesome hair accessories of mishil…and gold flower-and-leaf motif earrings…
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 1:32 PM
@sparks121
I think Arth ruined it for the Kim duo. IIRC, t’s the most expensive if not one of the most costly sageuks.
sparks121
December 6, 2021 at 2:21 PM
@kiara good point, but I hope not. Arthdal was A Choice but the whole idea just had too much room for interpretation. I don’t see that issue with a real setting/kingdom/empire/state so hopefully the powers that be feel the same. 😬 ’cause their dramas(when not Ye Old Arthdal Mess) just hit different for me 😩
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:53 PM
(cc @kiara)
I’m still not as familiar with these writer’s names as I want to be so I have to keep double checking “ah yes that is who they’re talking about” pffft
Except for Song Ji Na! Who I definitely know, because she wrote Healer. If she’s head writer for a 3K sageuk I would take that in a heart beat haha
Even if Arth’s issue WAS that it was supposed to be Gojoseon (supposed to be), that’s not 3K so they would be cruel to be bias against pre Joseon eras for that! *pouts*
I too miss the visuals of older eras, Sparky. Sigh. River was refreshing on the eyes even if it sucked…
kiara
December 7, 2021 at 8:35 AM
@sicarius,
Song Ji Na’s earlier dramas had the most profound effect on the country as a whole. It deserves its place in the history books and every classroom in Korea. EYES OF DAWN and SANDGLASS especially.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/18/1933002/–Sandglass-history-through-drama-on-the-40th-anniversary-of-the-Gwangju-Uprising
Thanks to Song Ji Na I read a lot about Korea’s history.
For sageuks, prefer her traditional sageuks like “The Great Ambition” more than THE LEGEND and FAITH.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 7, 2021 at 2:20 PM
@kiara I ‘ve always wanted to watch Sandglass. It’s somewhat hard to find in good quality and subbed though I think. Highest rated non weekender drama to date.
kiara
December 7, 2021 at 7:32 PM
@sicarius
That one website with the word nice in the end is okay-ish. It’s so old it’s hard to find it in good quality. EYES of DAWN is even harder to find.
emsel
December 6, 2021 at 9:36 AM
I din’t view Ep.7 ending this way, but then in Ep.8, his determination to poison the second state minister was terrifying. The scene was cool and befit the reaction of a potential king, but for a person who seemed calm and collected, the burst of anger was so sudden, which makes me wonder, how much has the court lady witnessed his actions to think of CP as a threat and also how much The King has seen San’s action as replication of his dad. The drama is really doing a good job of elaborating the reactions of the people
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 2:11 PM
I’d say grandfather taught him well about the way of politics. He lost his son to the throne, and those Norons who put him on the throne are after his grandson.
The arrow with the message in earlier episodes was a warning. What should he do? Wait to die? I’d say take down the big baddie or at least try.
Sado was in a situation where he was driven to madness. Deok-ro can be shady, but I think his ambition will keep San safe, and Deok Im by his side will be of great help.
Yeongjo made an intelligent move by recruiting Minister Seo to help protect San. He is from the Soron camp, the Noron’s enemy camp.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:47 PM
For me it was just a call back to when San told Deok Im he already had so many plans for when he was King, and that he must endure if he ever wants to see them come to fruition. THis is not some idle prince who has been sitting aside, no no, he already has plans for when he becomes regent and eventually takes the throne, and as @kiara says, his grandfather has taught him well.
I just had a chuckle myself, especially when his mum shot down Princess Hwawan, about their titles, who subsequently looses it. Can’t wait till he states before everyone “I am the son of Prince Sado”, changes his father’s name and builds an entire fortress in dedication to him… his enemies are going to loose their frakking minds lmao
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 6:11 PM
@sicarius,
I laughed at Hwawan but then felt sorry for her since we know that the king’s mental health is deteriorating and won’t be around to spoil and protect her.
The queen is young but not naive. I think she is using Lady Hye-bin as a shield from Hwawan.
I feel for Hye-bin the most out of all the women in the palace. All her rights as a legal mother to San have been stripped for years. She got demoted and moved out of the palace and had to watch her son grow up from afar.
I love her victory speech, but dang, she is such a spoiler.LOL.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 6:28 PM
@kiara Here I have to say, I relished the spoiler haha
ramenqueen
December 5, 2021 at 9:10 PM
I feel like the politics is more natural, like we watch history happens and love and hate and revenge, ambitions are all woven and tangled and part of it. Whereas TKA needs more drama and politics were introduced to create angst and push things along.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 9:15 PM
Ahhh manufactured conflict… the bane of my existence. Along with people pulling out the sharp pointy thing…
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 12:21 AM
I really liked that this first rejection was done after DeokIm’s meeting with HCL, because it explains better why she didn’t want the tangerine.
As I am sure San is in love with her, and has deep feelings for her, I’m not so sure right now about Deok Im. She feels the attachment to the Crown Prince, because she’s seen the King that he can be and she wants to protect him. She’s see him suffer and struggle with the King (which can be affectionate one minute and extremely violent the other). She knows, as she’s an excellent character observer, that San can make a good King… does it count as romantic love? I don’t think so at this moment.
Does it really matter that a woman is not in love with a man to become a concubine? Of course not. Not in Joseon or anywhere in the world in 18th century.
This is a question I would love to have an answer, will Deok Im go Lizzy Bennet and fall in love with Pemberley… I mean Darcy?
As I know about the real story and how deep was the love San felt for her, I want to think it was reciprocating. She likes San, I’m pretty sure. But does she loves him?
Not sageuk related but her situation reminds me of Empress Masako of Japan and how she continuously rejected Naruhito. This was only 30 years ago.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 12:37 AM
(Too late for me to reply to both you and @ramenqueen tonight! Jirisan time~ Till tomorrow and many more notifs x)
kiara
December 6, 2021 at 3:01 PM
He’s got his pride and so does she.
I think his princely ego/pride was crushed and he was shocked that a mere court maid would dare reject him. He tried to flex his power to remind her that he is the master as if she doesn’t know that he is the mighty crown prince of Joseon.LOL
I never thought that he would harm her because he adores her but he has a long way to go in order to win her heart.
I think that once he realized how pathetic he was he’d apologize? A prince of Joseon is not expected to apologize to a maid but it’s different when it comes to wooing a free-spirited and headstrong woman.
mugyuljoie is preciousss
December 25, 2021 at 1:52 AM
I’m still catching up and right now San has a loooong way to go to win me back. I’m going to erase how he treated her in order to be able to continue the drama without hoping she stabs him the next time his back is turned.
kiara
December 26, 2021 at 12:53 AM
I think youโd enjoy San more in YI SAN. Itโs very long but itโs needed for all the characters to be fleshed out.
kiara
December 26, 2021 at 7:14 AM
I started rewatching YISAN because this kind of writing drives me nuts. San was regarded as a benevolent king and it show in the way he treats the women in his life.
This writer is going for unnecessary shock factor and I donโt get where the heck she is taking this.
mugyuljoie is preciousss
December 27, 2021 at 2:06 AM
@kiara I’m too much of a sageuk wimp to watch one that long and it has a disturbing lack of Junho and my Stabby OTP™. 😆
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:53 PM
ON SAN:
So let us discuss why the end of EP 7/start of 8 happened the way it did, shall weโฆ
When she first rejects him, San simply leaves; he doesn’t threaten her or make a move although he is upset.
Even after finding out what she ACTUALLY said over chestnuts he doesn’t go to her immediately (although this is partially because he canโt.)
It’s only after two things does, he then act this way.
1. Is his conversation with the King which leaves him emotionally reactionary, as all it does immediately is remind him of his father and to him, his Grandfather’s treatment of his father and grandmother- there is a lot of resentment there, in this version of events. San does not wish to “love” like his grandfather, as to him this symbolises not being able to protect the ones he loves.
He makes a comment about being able to keep DI by his side no matter what- presumably unlike his grandfather (to bad history is a bitch but anyway)
2. Pretty much right after this, he sees Deok Im with her brother. He doesn’t know this is her brother, he doesn’t know why she’s hugging him, he’s been rejected, technically twice, and had a pretty emotionally charged day.
Itโs only THEN that he gets mad.
And, when he does, his dialogue, to me anyway, makes it sound like he feels betrayed, not by her prior rejection alone, but by, on top of everything, seeing her with another man, when she swore her loyalty to him. (I also think the sleeve cuffs were significant to everything somehow, but Iโm not sure how.)
My impression of this is that itโs more of a triple emotional reaction to everything.
I am not personally 100% convinced this writing choice makes perfect sense? that is, I think the writing around it couldโve been tighter, so we understood the motivations of everyone involved a bit better, but I donโt think itโs just about him getting mad she rejected him. I think thereโs more going on there. I think it was a very well-acted and high-tension and intense scene, and it wasnโt supposed to be truly romantic, rather point to the finer complexities in their relationship.
For me Iโm okay with this happening, as allowing the characters to make certain decisions, whether one agrees with them or likes them or not, is how a story develops, but only if there is actually purpose for them happening.
That is, right now, I am struggling to figure out *why* that scene was placed where it was in the narrative, especially since they havenโt addressed it again, when it feels like it should be something that should be resolved, have a follow up, or be a developmental point at some point (and if it were me, definitely before what happened at the end of 8โฆ)
So putting aside whether our modern sensibilities clash with this or not,
Why do you think San reacted like this, through a contextual and historical lens, as well as a metatextual one, and does it make sense for the writing to do this, with or without a follow up?
velvetstuff
December 5, 2021 at 7:14 PM
Reading what you have written, I agree with San’s behavior. But I feel like the events leading up to one another wasn’t portrayed very well. These little things that happened to him throughout the day felt disconnected. I don’t know if there needed to be more tension–but I didn’t get the sense that all these things were piling on top of each other, which led to his outburst. It makes sense, but the episode definitely didn’t convey it well. As well, I don’t think they needed to directly address what happened in the library, but at least they could have acknowledged what happened by showing us Deokim’s reaction. She was frazzled at the end of the scene but only for a minute. And then everything was normal again. And then suddenly she was hugging him with her eyes closed, sighing. It all felt so disconnected. I definitely loved the other parts of the episode. The Queen’s Book scenes were so well done, and everyone’s acting was on point. The King and Deokim were great, and San was in a completely different world as he just realized she was the little girl. And everything played out beautifully. But although Deokim and San didn’t address what happened that day, it was weird that Deokim wasn’t more affected.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:36 PM
I am glad I am not the only one who feels like the writing and contextual set up for this scene was somewhat lacking. I mention below that the pacing was awkward this week, and that definitely contributes to this.
There needed to be a bit more to everything, for the scene to work the most effectively.
ramenqueen
December 5, 2021 at 9:21 PM
I was left confused and unsatisfied with the infamous choke hold. Even after everything was eloquently explained like you did, the lack of an address to the event and follow up made it worse. Ok I’m with you on all the points. Besides being wide-eye (ok I love her but recently I noticed her default reaction to him and most things are just being wide eye shocked …there has to be other way to convey emotion right??) she wasn’t seem as scared and shaken as someone who was just told by their master that he could pretty much have her killer at anything time. It felt anticlimactic and because the lack of follow up on such momental interaction in their relationship, it’s so out of character for her to be like , whelp, have some laundry to do so I’m just going to go on with my day. I said out of character because, previously, we saw that when she’s annoyed or frustrated with him, she would throw rocks (or salt) and verbalize her anger but this time not even one thing.
And then, to only think about how he half heartedly try to save her by exiling her in shame, as something she’s grateful for, I’m just confused.
The hug at the end of #8 felt flat. There gotta be better way to reveal such childhood connection than, my name is San. I can’t help but thought of how Red Sky did it …but I won’t get into that.
velvetstuff
December 6, 2021 at 12:04 PM
And….I just had to go rewatch that Red Sky scene! My heart, haha!
Ally
December 6, 2021 at 7:28 PM
That was a GREAT scene.
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 12:54 AM
The events of the day lead to San back to the library, trying to figure out how to deal with everything that happened that day: from the rejected tangerine to the blue sleeve cuffs (that covered the red cuffs and then makes Deok Im not his anymore). San is in conflict, he wants to protect Deok Im at all costs and wants her in his life, but she’s just slipping through his fingers and he doesn’t want to lose her neither abuse her and make her by his side just by his command (that’s why he left after the tangerine rejection).
But then, please, let’s keep in mind this is Joseon 18th century and that he is the Crown Prince. He’s balanced and has lived all his life as the perfect grandson. We know San is good, we know he is considered and balanced. But he is a man, a powerful man, he will be a King, he’s used to have things done his way. He doesn’t usually get a no as a answer from those below him.
So he’s there in the library trying to figure out what the hell is going wrong with Deok Im. And she shows up. And the first thing he asks is: “Did you come here to find me?” He’s just willing to hear she is and then he would forget everything that happened during the day. But clueless DeokIm tells the truth: she’s there on an errand.
And that’s when San goes mad. His reaction is childish and of a jealous and betrayed man. He’s assuming what he thinks is real and he doesn’t care to listen to her or even ask her (why you rejected the tangerine, who’s the man who gave you those cuff sleeves that cover my cuff sleeves…). It’s Deok Im who asks what is his mind, and he’s so angry with himself about being thinking about her that he lets his anger out, and when you this you just want to hurt the one you are talking to: he wanted his words to hurt deeply DeokIm, who had already said would protect him no matter what.
I praise Deok Im for being true to herself and tell him (as with the tangerine, I know I’m being repetitive) that she can take her own decisions even about things other may find trivial and she’s not totally his which makes him even more angry and frustrated. I’m not validating his behaviour, but it just makes sense.
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 12:58 AM
As for Deok Im response… I know we all want something more, but… I still keep in mind that she’s a court lady, she’s been living in the palace half of her life… she knows how things go (the same way I know how things go around my crazy boss and I just have to say aha every time she says something stupid or blames me for something I haven’t done).
One of the things I’m not really happy about the drama is how it deals with time jumps (well, I’m never happy with this in any drama actually). From the library scene to the moment she helps imp court lady or when the book is found we just don’t know how long it’s been.
mugyuljoie is preciousss
December 29, 2021 at 2:18 AM
The something more I wanted was for her to 🗡 him. Or at least start plotting her escape from this now ill-fated romance and servitude. Maybe @mmmmm is right and I’ve become blood thirsty. Or maybe I’ve been influenced by @sicarius? 🤔
mmmmm
December 29, 2021 at 2:51 AM
Mugy ofc you are blood thirsty. You have become a vampire!
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 1:02 AM
One more thing. Almost everytime we have a significant moment between San and Deok Im, the scene fades on a pear blossom which among many other meanings has this one: love and affection for one’s beloved.
ramenqueen
December 6, 2021 at 5:52 PM
LOVE your analysis here @eazal
sirena
December 6, 2021 at 9:55 AM
@sicarius I believe that San reacted with anger because Deok Im contradicted his belief that her entire being (body, mind, and soul) belongs to him. Also, I believe that the words of his personal guard did not help either. The guard told San not to put too much stock in what he had overheard her say to the other court ladies. Also, seeing Deok Im with her brother just added more fuel to the fire. I believe that his reaction does make sense. He is very much ruled by his emotions when it comes to Deok Im.
emsel
December 6, 2021 at 10:06 AM
Ha! From this angle (his reaction was a follow up of his day’s event) it does make sense, but I though it was his frustration over the fact, she wasn’t being serious about his feelings.
He tells her,he cares about her (during the bath), he gives her a valuable mandarin, has been thinking about her all the time and gives her all clues that he is attracted, but she rejects him and continues to be informal, which he considers as stringing him along.
IMO, her treating his feelings lightly, opened his can of frustration, so he gives her a warning.
SooHa
December 16, 2021 at 12:22 AM
Agree on the time jump that Deok Im just go with the laundry after that neck grabbing. When CP propose to have Deok Im in exile instead of facing the King, I thought CP still mad at her and Deok Im also mad at him because he’s not helping her by sending her to exile. But CP really know how’s the King attitude, sending Deok Im to the King is like sending her head away and it is what happen, the punishment getting worst. So he must risky his life again to save Deok Im. But sadly it’s not addresses it well, I don’t see that Deok Im understand why CP choose to exile her than facing the King. Part of it because CP would rather have Deok Im alive somewhere and can’t be with any other man, than having her dead (even though history speaking, he’ll be live for over a decade without her)
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:54 PM
ON KNIVES:
@emsel You mentioned Wol Haeโs fight was with a hairpin, in the hangout thread.
It was actually a knife Wol Hae had on her body, when she attacked her would-be-attackers, not a hair pin. Although obviously I wish for more knife-binyeos, she had her hair in the daenggi meori style, and therefore wouldn’t have been wearing a binyeo.
Now, what it COULDโVE been, is an eunjangdo, a type of small silver knife worn by men and women alike, and often worn by women for self defense.
Fun fact about the eunjangdo:
It was often part of one of the most common and famous hanbok accessories of the time, the norigae. The norigae was an ornamental accessory made up from three basic parts, the knot, the ornament, and the tassel, and hung from either the hanbok coat strings or the skirt; Deok Imโs ornament given to her by the Head Court Lady is a norigae.
Yes, these could sometimes also include a knife attached to the ornament. How cool is that. (A: Very Cool. Or it is to me, who likes knives.)
Eunjangdo norigae were known to have sometimes also contained a set of chopsticks, so that when people ate out, they could use chopsticks that they knew were safe from poisoning.
From mandarinmansion.com: โSilver tarnishes quickly when it touches arsenic sulfides, and so these are said to be able to detect arsenic poisoning.โ
HOWSOMEEVER- to me, the knife Wol Hae used looked a bit too big and long to be an eunjangdo, reminding me more of a short tantล, or kaiken, – a Japanese long knife- both in size and shape.
She also pulled it out of her sleeve, rather than it being attached at her waist or breast, and it is not silver.
Kaiken were 20-25cm long, which is the approximate length of this knife, as you can tell from the size of her hand against it, whereas, although it was a bit timely to find details on their length, most eunjangdo I saw were listed as 3, 3 ยฝ, 4 inches, so on average 10 cm.
The Japanese kaiken, was worn similarly to the eunjangdo by women, attached to or hidden in their obi (the sash over the kimono), for self defense.
If Korea had their own equivalent of the kaiken, I cannot find its name.
From what I understand, Joseon Korea valued the Confucian scholar, over the skill of the warrior or martial artist, so a lot of Korean martial arts and crafts is much harder to find information on, in comparison to say, Japan.
Antique Korean arms of any kind are thus incredibly rare, additionally influenced by rigorous disarmament under Japanese Occupation.
Bit annoying for someone interested in antiques, historic Korea, AND weaponsโฆ
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:54 PM
It wouldโve been cool for the drama to have made a reference to the eunjangdo, and the many uses of the norigae ornaments, but the kind of sageuk I want to see, with excessive focus on such details, is probably not as palatable for the average viewer looking for a tragic love story based on history. *Why yes I would watch hrs and hrs of content about traditional and historical Korean life and details filmed in the manner of the Kingdom opening credits scene, why do you ask* *no, the reason I loved TWDR so much had nothing to do with me being a Lingy geek, not at all* *maybe I should just switch to documentariesโฆ * Ahem.
Pictures below~
fig 1: Glimjaโs illustrations of norigae
fig 2: a Joseon era eunjangdo
fig 3. a Joseon era, 19th century eunjangdo
fig 4. An eunjangdo with chopsticks
fig 5: a kaiken
fig 6: Court Lady Wol Haeโs Knife
Ally
December 5, 2021 at 7:14 PM
Why do I think a certain beanie โghostโ would enjoy this thread? 😆
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:37 PM
Shall I tag him? hahaha
Ally
December 5, 2021 at 7:39 PM
Thatโs entirely up to youโฆ.
dramalover4ever
December 5, 2021 at 8:17 PM
I thought it was like the Japanese version. She was so damn quick with it too. Impressive.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:22 PM
She was quick, although in fairness, her attackers were very slow. Perhaps a bit… too slow.
But as she was fast, and aimed for the vital spots, and it was shot ok, I will let any other discrepancies with the scene slide…
sirena
December 6, 2021 at 9:56 AM
Thank you for sharing these images!
sparks121
December 6, 2021 at 1:34 PM
Per the actress’s ig, it’s not an eunjangdo. She just said it’s a short sword(lit. translation; ๋จ๊ฒ). But no indication on a specific kind (so it could be any variety of small/short knife, sword, dagger…you get the point).
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:40 PM
I mean I know it’s not an eunjangdo, I just wanted to type out why and my findings hehe
It’s really hard to find information on historic Korean weapons, you have no idea, so yes, I definitely get the point haha.
It’s probable that dangeom, as per its literal translation (short sword, dagger, and which I didn’t look up for some reason haha), is, and was, simply a term for many different kinds of short bladed weapons, like tanto class weapons in Japan.
As I found reference to a dangeom (๋จ๊ฒ) in my rabbit hole the other day, but the information on it didn’t match what she actually had, so I dismissed it. One source said it was a knife usually with a curved handle, another said it was a bronze double edged short sword. The swords in Geommu, a traditional form of sword dance, also use another kind of dan geom.
If it meant a certain kind in particular at one point, it’s possible it has lost any specific meaning in modern use.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:56 PM
ON THE COURT LADY CULT:
I found this to be a littleโฆ over the top myself. Itโs not that Head Court ladies couldnโt and didnโt wield a lot of power, I just found the portrayal of this to be a little too … campy almost… for the story. It got kinda dark and weird real quick there all of a sudden.
Like oh they have a secret ritualistic story, a secret lair, a secret manifesto, a secret document of signaturesโฆ do they have a blood ritual and a secret handshake too? It reminded me of Tree With Deep Roots, and yet somehow I feel like it worked better in TWDRโฆ
Iโm guessing this part of the story is from the novel?
As is the Head Court Ladyโs revenge and backstory, leading to Crown Prince Sadoโs death. I guess it makes sense for them to heavily fictionalise this and use it as a plot for the villain, especially since there is much debate, as far as I know, about what caused Sado to end up the way he did- and that thus would be ripe for fictionalising.
None of this is historical though, Iโm pretty sure, just so people know- @kiara can correct me if Iโm wrong.)
(It’s also probably high treason for them to have a fake throne and a burnt royal robe that they place themselves over in a position of authorityโฆ)
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 7:40 PM
Ha, I agree the secret society was definitely not as well written as TWDR, but really, who writes fictional/fusion sageuks better than the Kim/Park duo? (which reminds me, mbc needs to bring them an offering of a sh*t ton of money and creative freedom to do another another 50+ ep sageuk ASAP)
This is not a meaningful contribution to the discussion, but I personally am not opposed to camp/makjang. 😂 I definitely understand the WTF around it though. Not the most smoothly executed part of this drama.
Not directed to you, Sicarius, but for those doubting how a court lady could be this powerful: the Jejo Sanggoong (head court lady; Jo in this drama) was indeed a very powerful figure. They were in charge of both small and large tasks related to the inner court, even things that male officials could not interfere in (as they were matters of women), as well as directly receive/relay the king’s orders. They were indeed often involved in politics.
But yes, the cult-like meeting in the drama was almost hilarious. I was kinda hoping they would be meeting in a large dimly-lit room instead, with them sitting in rows with Head Court Lady Jo at the head…I love when they’re meeting at night in dark rooms to conspire in sageuks lol.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:44 PM
I am not opposed to camp either, actually, but I think it doesn’t fit THIS particular drama, or the tone we’ve established so far. Not well anyway. As you say, not the most smoothly executed.
I too thought they should’ve been meeting in a dimly lit room! I felt that setting would be more appropriate hahaha.
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 8:08 PM
I’ve said as much before, but I am ALL about the dark-room-conspiring in sageuks, ha.
It’s probably due to the long drought of half-way decent, non-fluff or fantasy sageuks, but I don’t have as many criticisms about the lack of smoothness in the most recent episodes as others do (not that they’re unwarranted). Personally I’m just glad to have a sageuk that doesn’t make me cringe, roll my eyes, and/or bore me to tears.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM
Trad sageuk revival starts, now? 😂😂😂
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 8:43 PM
@sicarius YES. It MUST. May Red Sleeves’ good ratings energy transfer to Taejong after its end. I think we can we can count on one hand the number of sageuks that were not of the fluff/rom-com/fantasy variety for the last FIVE years. (ones worth mentioning, at least. And the awful tv chosun ones starring jin se yeon do NOT count) I beg you, Kim Young Hyun, Park Sang Yeon-nims, please ditch Arthdal(sorry, fans-of-the-show) and start making a new epic!
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 9:00 PM
I am forever hopeful that Arthdal’s continuous and for now indefinite postponement of its 2nd Seasons, means it will simply… slip into oblivion, and never happen.
(tip re. notifs: no need to tag me, this is my post so I get a notification both whenever someone comments on this post in general, AND replies to a parent comment of mine, which is … every time someone comments on this thread also… pfft ^^)
sparks121
December 5, 2021 at 9:11 PM
I can still tell they have “it” as writers; just feels like the ancient era they chose as inspiration was just too steeped in myth and they just went too trigger-happy with the world-building. Just make a goryeo or three-kingdoms epic!
I wanted to see song joong ki in another sageuk penned by them since TWDR was what convinced me he was REALLY a good actor, but damn, arthdal was not it lol. (Hmm, song joong ki in a three-kingdoms- or goryeo-era look…)
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 9:15 PM
Arthdal should’ve either committed to being a terribly campy fantasy only, and gone all out on the fantasy elements, or gone for a more historical route. It couldn’t be both, and it was entirely unfocused in anything it wanted to be and did, and it failed miserably. It did at least produce, however, some great memes. Viva La Magic Horse.
TWDR was what convinced me SJK could act as well ohmygosh haha.
dramalover4ever
December 5, 2021 at 7:55 PM
This *It reminded me of Tree With Deep Roots* but for some reason it made sense for me. We know the eunuchs were powerful in China, why not the court maids? Or is it that I love the idea of a secret society of court maids – the power behind the throne. The setting was evocative and powerfully subversive. It generates a foundational mythology that gives power and continuity to the role of the court maid. If it’s not authentic, I wish it had been. I am loving the flipped perspective of the court that this is giving us. I’m guessing this is where the big bad is going to come from, but I’m hoping it’s nuanced so that we continue to see it from the perspective of the women, rather than just the perspective of one very power-hungry woman (which it could easily become).
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:14 PM
I found the imagery (the styling, the execution, the direction) too over the top and I guess, not subtle enough, to be very evocative to me personally. I cringed rather than got goosebumps, for example.
The masks, the setting, the myth, the hand signing, but most significantly the throne the HCL sat on and the discarded and burnt royal robes… I understand that the imagery here was on purpose, and perhaps was supposed to draw attention to the HCL’s personal ambition … but I found it tacky… not subversive… haha
Unless that was again the point, and supposed to highlight the HCL’s ambition getting out of hand, and power once again becoming something corrupt, instead of authority being used for good, her own ideals eventually corrupting her. *shrugs*
ramenqueen
December 5, 2021 at 9:26 PM
Yea what’s the point of the masks. Shouldn’t everyone know who’s part of the group at this point. And what’s the need for the handprints, can you tell one person from another by the handprints (if you already had the signature?). And why force someone to be part of this, you think you wouldn’t want to open membership to everyone who’s not willing. This is not Amazon prime, more doesn’t mean better.
ramenqueen
December 5, 2021 at 9:27 PM
They should have stuck with her motivation being wanting to protect 700 other CLs. Why add tHis? Maybe they need more materials to fill the chapters/episodes.
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 1:17 AM
While I was watching, I could only think about this: where is this? Where is this building and how they are hiding inside the palace with no one knowing? Then it came up to me it was a mobile construction (like the folding screen but on a major scale), but then I thought… how the hell no know about this big panels and all the torches? It can’t be out of the palace… how can 60 or more court ladies get out of the palace and no one noticing? And if it’s a mobile set… what about that throne.
So yes, all over the top, and I confess it dragged me a little off the drama.
As if it’s on the novel, the person I follow on IG that is actually reading the novel hasn’t mentioned it yet. I think I’ll ask her…
Alluvial_Fan
December 6, 2021 at 4:08 AM
Agree that this setting was too showy and OTT for the purpose of a secret society. They would have used the time-honored three-person-cell construct so that if one is caught only two others go down with them. However, for the purpose of establishing the big-bad in this drama, it worked.
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 8:44 AM
I have asked my IG friend and she told me there is nothing of the kind in the novel, and so far she’s already in the moment San is already King Jeongjo and has taken Deokro’s sister as concubine (although he just stays seated in the room because he considers her a child).
So yes, it’s just a drama invention that we all hope MBC keeps it to the minumum!
wapz
December 6, 2021 at 9:49 AM
Eww Deok ro manages to make his sister San’s concubine? Well she is a child and its irksome how Deok ro just wants to use her for his benefit well just like TKA or probably every royal marriage I’ve seen in sageuks. I want to praise Kang Hoon here, he’s doing grey well. While Deok ro isn’t equal portions black and white, there are moments where what he does makes sense. Especially as San sees things as black and white he needs someone like Deok Ro to actually move in the world as the King.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:21 PM
Comment was deleted
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:26 PM
1. And then I was thinking just last night โactually the palace was massive, and there were probably lots of corners in the Gardens for secret lovers to meetโโฆ so possibly? there was a space for a secret court lady cult meeting lmao. Perhaps not so much the private dungeon though…
They called it a name thoughโฆ I wonder if thatโs in reference to anywhere real. *will I go look or will I procrastinate this till it never happens*
It dragged me out of the drama a bit too, I think I laughed haha.
2. That’s interesting it is not in the novel! And even more interesting then that they decided to add it… hmmm
3. I thought Deok Ro’s sister became a concubine after Deok Im died but I guess I got that wrong.
@wapzy yes, I hinted to it above, but yes Deok Ro imposes his own ambition on his sister and manages to get her a place as San’s concubine. I believe? that she actually ends up bearing San’s heir, after Deok Im and all their children die. ๐
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 2:39 PM
He took another concubine, the one who was the mother of his children after Deok Im died, but she was not Deokroโs sister as far as I know (and Wikipediaโs has confirmed)
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:58 PM
@eazal Ah I must’ve just got my names confused, no worries!
sirena
December 6, 2021 at 9:59 AM
I enjoyed the introduction of the secret society of court ladies (even if it probably doesn’t make much sense). I don’t much like the Head Court Lady, but I do believe that her desires to protect the other court ladies is genuine.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 6:57 PM
ON OTHER STUFF
– The Textual and Sexual Tension of the entire first half of episode 7 when they can think of nothing but each other. Or in Sanโs case her tattoo, cos he was a naughty boy and PEEKED.
– Just from a colour theory point of view, his green and navy hanbok is DELICIOUS. The lime green against the deep indigo blue? I am in LOVE. Who thought of that colour combination, they need a raise.
In comparison, Princess Hwawan always dresses overly ostentatiously with excessive embroidery and layers, which places her nicely in contrast to both the Queen and Sanโs Mother.
– @emsel, I also noticed a great deal many other kinds of hanbok worn by various court ladies this episode, supporting my theory that different colours signify a different role. The Inspector Court Ladies had blue uppers, as well as several types of more aprony type overcoats being worn, that reminded me more of the hanboks worn by Joseon nurses.
– Iโve always wondered how they held stuff in their sleeves without things falling out, and for some reason I am only just now noticing that the voluminous sleeves of Sanโs hanbok were stiched along their opening. Have all hanboks have this and Iโm only just noticing now?
Anyway, the magic trick with the mandarin was cute.
– The King crying as Deok Im told the story, (and the selective memory from ALL participants involved lol)
– Does anyone know what the weird target/ clothes looking things in that private garden are, and what their significance is? Is it a reference to something historically or?
– The hug was cute thoughโฆ
– On a technical note, I found the pacing of these two episodes to be a bit more uneven and not as smooth or cohesive as Iโd like; events seemed more clipped together rather than natural progressions of each other, this was always a bit of a thing, I think? But it was more noticeable this week, which worries me for the future, but weโll just see how that goes.
– โThe House of the Lonely Dogโ–
Unrelated to the drama but there is a famous NZ painter called Ivan Clarke who is known for his โLonely Dogโ painting series, and that was my first thought when I saw that scene, after of course the designated and obligatory โawwwwโ at the name and the backstory.
Here are a couple of Lonely Dog paintings:
Ally
December 5, 2021 at 7:24 PM
I thought they were kites. 🤷🏻♀️
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 7:41 PM
Kites, hmmm, that could be possible. The written piece under one that Deok Im read was “Fight and Resist”, and it made me think they were somehow military pendants of some kind.
Ally
December 5, 2021 at 7:53 PM
I just want to mention the hanboks as well. Weโre they really this colorful back then? But yes, they are the prettiest and I noticed them immediately from the 2โnd scene with all the little court girls sitting around Deok-Im.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:04 PM
“Were they really this colourful”- oh how I wish I had my own copy of Chromatopia: An Illustrated History of Color…
Well “back then” is only the 1790s. Only a little over 200 years ago, and not say, 1500. Which means there were significantly more dyes and pigments available, and maritime trade was much easier, what with the age of sail.
But even if this were Silla, the effect of the Silk Road on trade has time and time again be proven… and also Silla was rich af.
Without more research, I can’t say if these EXACT pigments would’ve been available, but it is my understanding of history of fashion, that yes, absolutely, people dressed colourfully in the past, from Rome to Chang’an. Plus he’s … yaknow… the prince.
dramalover4ever
December 5, 2021 at 8:00 PM
That’s what I thought at first, but then I wondered if they were banners?
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 1:21 AM
I found this explanation on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdramasekki/status/1467387936597368833?s=20
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:14 PM
Okay but as a heraldry and vexillology nerd these are SO COOL.
dramalover4ever
December 5, 2021 at 8:00 PM
OMG I loooove these. Lonely dog, ❤️❤️❤️ Bo sends the artist some bones 🦴🦴🦴🦴 and wants to let him know, he’ll arrive in Christchurch on Thursday. He has now decided to wear a white suit and to team it with his sunnies. He’ll throw the mask away. Styleeeee
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 8:17 PM
Pfahaha! Tell him to make it down to Queenstown; perhaps he can seek out the companionship of the Lonely Dog! lol
ramenqueen
December 5, 2021 at 9:30 PM
I’m in love with San in all the color, I thought blue was it (the one in all the promo posters) but then there’s the lime green and I’m like this is it. But then the preview has him in purple so…maybe someone bless us with a collection of GIFS or screenshots of San in all the different colorful hanboks
diniyuukie
December 5, 2021 at 11:51 PM
It is actually kites used by Admiral Yi Sun-shin during Imjin War. The Talking Cupboard talked about it in the post about the drama here: https://thetalkingcupboard.com/2021/11/17/the-red-sleeve-notes-and-historical-stuff/
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 5, 2021 at 11:56 PM
Oh my gosh thank you!!!! So they are both kites, and technically military pendants/banners haha.
Now, do we know WHY they were used in this scene other than summation?
diniyuukie
December 6, 2021 at 12:18 AM
There were mentions that the kite that Deok-im specifically look at has the sign of “wrestle and fight!” which San shouts out during the preview for ep 9. Maybe we will see the significant next week?
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 12:24 AM
OOOoooh okay, thanks preview for the hint haha I missed that connection but got the line she read. Guess we’ll wait and see.
Eazal
December 6, 2021 at 1:24 AM
If you read at the link I posted before, the twitt: Deok Im is looking at one that says “fight and resist” which is a line San says in the preview of episode 9.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:15 PM
Yes yes I know hahaha and thank you for link indeed, very obsessed with those signal designs hngggg
Alluvial_Fan
December 6, 2021 at 4:15 AM
Does anyone else recognize the setting of this “secret place” as the same used to sequester the second prince in Rookie Historian? Guess I’ve watched too many sageuks and am starting to recognize historical shoot locations as well as various and sundry cliffs of doom.
Kurama
December 6, 2021 at 4:54 AM
Yeah, Sado’s place was the Prince’s residence in Rookie Historian.
dramalover4ever
December 6, 2021 at 7:11 AM
Yes.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:17 PM
Yeahp well… when there are really only a certain amount of buildings still standing from the era, and x amount of sageuk sets… they get recycled don’t they? heheh (The Cliff of doom on the other hand… surely there are more cliffs of doom in Korea hah!~)
Personally I get a little excited whenever I see a location from the Secret Garden of Huwon at Changdeokgung… but that’s just me haha
wapz
December 6, 2021 at 9:42 AM
The sleeve pockets!!! Ahaha I was so glad i found out how they hid scrolls in those long sleeves. It is stitched! What a revelation! I don’t think I’ve ever seen the sleeves in such clarity or that angle thus I could never tell how those things don’t fall off. I didn’t like the hug honestly because it seemed that only San had reminisced that memory, never Deok Im so I have no idea why she was equally happy. Lol i first saw this thread at 50 comments and now there are 73 already. Good luck with the notifs sic.
wapz
December 6, 2021 at 9:52 AM
Also LDH and LSY acted so well in the scene where she was narrating what happened in the the funeral. Junho’s performance left sth to be desired and maybe a scene after that about him contemplating about finding DI would’ve made the last scene more poignant. I’m guessing many scenes in this episode may have been edited out because it was incoherent at quite some places.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM
:/ Yeah I’m… worried about how that editing/pacing/directing will effect the latter half of the story… even more reasons why this should’ve been 20 episodes or longer. Sigh.
๐๐โ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia โ ๐๐
December 6, 2021 at 2:18 PM
Same re. the sleeves!!!! Hahaha
I do think the hug was sweet but upon farther reflection I wish there was… more set up to it, and the writing of it was tighter. Oh well.
(61 this morning help me)
DancingEmma
December 19, 2021 at 5:57 PM
@kiara Thank you for your link to the Daily Kos article. I am very interested in the period leading up to the military dictatorship, during its repressive reign and in its aftermath. If you ever care to share any interesting English language articles/books about the above, I would be very grateful.