I stopped watching LOVERS OF THE RED SKY after Ep. 6 I’m afraid (I’m just too busy and it isn’t particularly thrilling? Apologies for going AWOL at the sageuk club).

The only drama I’m watching is THE STORY OF MING LAN. I love love the opening instrumental track, and at episode 20 things finally got interesting.

cc: @kiara @marcusnyc20nyc20 @ndlessjoie @mmmmm

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    Ack, that should be @marcusnyc20

    Anyway, I hope all of you are well and watching some good dramas!

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    I watched Ming Lan on and off (not interested in the first lover arc)….until the divorce news of ZLY of FXF, it broke the magic right away.

    Hope this didn’t spoil your watch.

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    Hi! I stopped Cha*3 at ep 6 and haven’t found any reason to make me want to go back yet. I am watching Darli at the moment and I’m enjoying this one a lot! 🤩

    Have you watched the Tree with Deep Roots? What do you think about it compared to SFD?

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    Hi Toki! You have taken on the 73 episodes of MING LAN. Enjoy the journey.
    I never started RED SKY and I am passing on THE KING’S AFFECTION. I hope you will be checking out the two other upcoming sageuks: RED SLEEVE CUFF and INSPECTOR JOY. I plan on watching both. I think I can handle one (maybe) ‘heavy’ and one ‘light’ sageuk at the same time. 2 heavies I don’t think so. Along with the two upcoming sageuks I plan on watching JIRISAN (all 3 on Viki US) and Park Hyung-sik’s return to kdrama land: HAPPINESS (availability permitting). So my viewing card will be filling up.
    Recently my viewing: HOMETOWN (not CHA CHA CHA) dropped after 6 episodes, finished cdrama historical mystery CHONG MING WEI (2018), current with THE VEIL and D&G. I decided to work in the gritty cops/crime/mystery cdrama DOUBLE TAP (2021) which recently became available on Viki and it has really grabbed my attention. So that’s what’s going on.

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    I’m a huge fan! Ming Lan is one of the best period C-dramas made in the recent years. I’ve watched it non-skipped 3 times already and will probably rewatch it again whenever I have time. Such a solid plot with many endearing characters, I also pick up many valuable life lessons along the way. Thumbs up!

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    I love that show <3 !!!!!!! enjoy the ride Toki 🙂

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It’s mid-September! Time to assess my bean count, which is looking puny again. Compared to my 2019 and 2020 watchlist, I’m watching mostly historical/costume dramas. I’ve also watched more Cdramas this year than in the past.

Kdramas
1. Secret Royal Inspector (KBS2)
2. River Where the Moon Rises (KBS2)
3. Vincenzo (TvN)
4. Bossam: Stealing Fate (MBN)
5. Imitation (KBS2)

Cdramas
1. The Long Ballad
2. The Rebel Princess

Older dramas
1. Kim Su Ro (2010)
2. A Piece of Your Mind (2020)
3. Falling for Innocence (2015)
4. The Romance of Tiger and Rose (2020)
5. Hannari Girori no Yoriko-san (2018).
Jdrama. 4 episodes. I think you’d like it @kudoran

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    Oh Toki, what did you think of A Piece of Your Mind?

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    Toki, as of now we only have BOSSAM in common. I know the origin of your image but perhaps in an ‘alternate’ BOSSAM universe Ba-woo and Dae-yeob could have been real friends.
    (Both Jung Il-woo and Shin Hyun-Soo, particularly SHS, looked great in hanbok.)

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    thanks for the reco’ and the tag Toki 🙂
    (might have missed your post otherwise, ’cause I haven’t checked the fanwall in ages 🙁 )
    I’ve started A piece of your mind and finished When the weather is fine which was fine 🙂 .
    I watched Falling for innocence a few years ago, it has some good laughs moments in it ^^ .

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So, I think LOVERS OF THE RED SKY is improving … or I have learned to enjoy the obvious changes to historical names and places (I keep cracking up at “Gwanyang” instead of “Hanyang”).

I still have lots of questions but I enjoyed Ep. 4 so much that I wrote a recap. Oops. https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/09/17/lovers-of-the-red-sky-episode-4-review/

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Review of Ep 3: in which I enlisted my sister to watch with me and tried to figure out some of the mythology.
#LoversOfTheRedSky
https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/09/13/lovers-of-the-red-sky-episode-3-review/

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    Accurate portrayal of me trying to keep up with all the sageuks @sicarius

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    Oh my @wishfultoki! Is that my boy Chan (30B17)? Chan what has life done to you?

    Here is my situation. I just returned from two weeks of traveling with no kdramas watched and a few DB comments made after checking in now and then. I have a guest for the rest of this week. I currently have 2 dramas on my viewing plate: HP2 and POL U (preferred to PU) which I will catch up on.
    Just before departing I discovered that LOVERS OF THE RED SKY would not be a traditional sageuk.
    I am on the fence but leaning against trying to get caught up. I planned to pass on KBS’s AFFECTION.
    At this stage of the game I think I may just wait for MBC’s THE RED SLEEVE CUFF (Junho, Lee Se-young) premiering on Nov. 5.

    Toki, I will read your RED SKY reviews and make a decision.

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      Lockdown did this to Chan 😂

      I wouldn’t bother with RED SKY unless you like fantasy. I’m watching for Kim Yoo-jung. I’m also passing on AFFECTION so will join you on Nov. 5th for RED SLEEVE CUFF.

      I had HP2 on my list but I saw spoilers on the fan wall and am no longer interested 😢 I will watch the band scenes on YouTube.

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        Comment was deleted

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        MDL has tvN’s TALE OF THE SECRET ROYAL INSPECTOR AND JO YI (Taecyon, Kim Hye-yoon) airing episode one on Nov. 1 so that would be a M/T sageuk comedic drama.
        MDL has RED SLEEVE CUFF airing episode one on Nov. 5 so that would be a F/S sageuk drama.
        I will probably juggle both of those dramas and as they wrap up KBS’s WHEN FLOWERS BLOOM, I THINK OF THE MOON (Yoo Seung-ho, Lee Hye-ri) according to MDL will air episode one on Dec. 20, 2021 running 16 episodes M/T until Feb. 15, 2022.
        So there is more sageuk action running from the beginning of November well into February, 2022.

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          Jeonha, kill me now! 🤣

          Out of those 3, I’ll try RED CUFF SLEEVE. Not sure about the other two, though I love Yoo Seung-ho.

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            I am also a YSH fan although I have only seen him in two dramas: the sageuk RULER: MASTER OF THE MASK, and INAR.

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    Thanks Toki. Such a pity that dbs isn’t recapping. I wish I’d been around in the earlier days of javabeans.

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    Just posted my summary and breakdown of the lore on my wall. Sorry if you got like 10 tags whilst I was trying to figure out formatting : )

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      Wowo, thank you Sic! It looks great! I’ll watch Episodes 5-6 and then comment in more detail.

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Real life keeps me busy nowadays, but that also means I have less time to reconsider my first impressions. So, here’s my honest review of LOVERS OF THE RED SKY Episode 2.

https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/09/09/lovers-of-the-red-sky-episode-2-review/

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    I think I’m going to wait for a true sageuk. Two are coming up soon.

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    Omo, Toki, I didn’t know you were recapping this, so great! Our little Bossam fanclub was the highlight of my drama year so far🥳

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      “His transformation into a CGI demon creature gave me nightmares, though on second watch it seems like he just had a bad hair day.” got me laughing. Watching it, I thought wow, that’s a cray mane of glory 🤣
      Anyways, totally agree with your assessment: so far, so sageuk
      But everything and everyone is extra pretty, and the gods are keeping it entertaining, so I’m having fun. Personally, I’m hoping for more Demonic Haram and less Evil Prince brooding in the bathtub

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        That demon transformation was so bad I couldn’t even.

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          Demon Haram jumping over the trees did look a bit silly🤣 The vibe of this reminds me of Arang and the Magistrate, I kind of dig this kind of Fairytale camp

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            So far I’m in, fairytale camp and all! (I thought demonic Ha Ram looked like Edward Scissorhands😉)

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            Now that you say it, he does have an air… I guess it’s the crazy hair/extreme paleness combo 😂

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      I’m not writing full recaps, just a quick overview followed by my thoughts. I was wary of writing reviews rather than recaps because others will have different opinions – and I hate it when a reviewer ruins a show for me with too much criticism. Hopefully, I won’t do that, though it is what DB trained me for these last few years. 😁

      I don’t know if I can handle a lot of demonic characters so I’m hoping the drama focuses more on painting. Evil Prince brooding is boooring, even though Kwak Si Yang looks handsome.

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        Have you seen Painter of the Wind?

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          I think I saw this, years ago, before I was aware of how much Korean drama was out there. From memory, it was lovely. I need to see it again though. I guess I’ll have to go to that other site to do so. I’ve been taking a Chinese drama detour and saw about 2/3 of Rebel Princess, The Imperial Coroner, YinYang Master, and now Lost in 1949. Except for TEC, every minute of which was enjoyable, they have just been fillers while I’ve been waiting for a better historical kdrama. The payoff has been that I’ve discovered Zhou Yiwei and Chen Kun 😍😍😍😍😍

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            @jorobertson Great minds think alike! I also took a Chinese detour while waiting for new sageuks. Did you finish Rebel Princess? It kind of drags in the middle but Episodes 60-68 were good. I actually gasped at a plot twist even though I knew it was coming 😂 Xiao Qi is amazing. 🤩

            @hebang I have not seen Painter of the Wind yet. I am waiting for it to be a available on my regular Viki Pass. 😅

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        Reviews are good. Recaps involve so much work, so don’t… Speaking for myself, I can cope with an other opinion. I don’t have to agree, and it won’t spoil the pleasure of watching, and then we can discuss. 😁

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        I didn’t finish Rebel Princess. I must go back then for the plot twist, but instead I watched as much Zhou Yiwei as I could in other dramas (loved Great Shaolin). Xiao Qi is the quintessential actor. I wish I could understand Chinese because the “I, the Actor” performances with Zhou Yiwei ‘s performances and Xiao Qi as a judge looks very interesting. I also loved King’s War and The Three Kingdoms, which I watched some time ago. They both made me want to know about the history. They are very talky, strategic, intellectually agile, and rely on good subs. I’m sure I missed a heap because of those limitations. I can’t get enough of history told through drama.

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          Oh, you could watch Ep. 49-50, and Ep. 60-68, where stuff finally happens. Xiao Qi is even more amazing in the final episodes if you can believe that! You can skip the kidnapped Awu parts.

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            Will do. Currently on episode 27 of 40+ of Lost in 1949. Chen Kun. I love this period too. From between the wars until the beginning of the Republic. Lots of propaganda but it’s even interesting to see that spin.

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    Thanks, Toki. I posted a comment, but I’m not sure if it worked. Very good of you to do this in your “spare” time. I’ll keep watching because it’s pretty, but I’ll be on the watch for a more historical sageuk. I’d like to see something more like Six Flying Dragons and Tree with Deep Roots.

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Well, RED SKY is a full-fledged fantasy drama! That was unexpected. I just have to remember that this isn’t Joseon and things will be ok. Maybe. @sicarius might enjoy this, maybe.

For what it’s worth, I wrote an Episode 1 review..https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/09/01/lovers-of-the-red-sky-episode-1-review/

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    It’s okay Toki, they remind you it isn’t historic Joseon at the start of every episode 😉

    It was even more fantasy than I was expecting which was a nice surprise, I mean, I am starting it because it’s fantasy, but I wasn’t expecting to see a fully rendered cgi demon lmao.
    I am pretty sure it already has holes in its mythology but we’ll see if I can ignore them or not, because DAMMIT I want more fantasy sageuks!

    That being said… I was already re-directing and sound-editing the rain-ceremony scene… they should’ve had the creepy chanting* over both it and the prince releasing the demon/ burning the painting, and then just ramped up the intensity of the chanting.
    I also couldn’t stop thinking about Lee Soo Hyuk as the lead, sorry Ahn Hyo Seop! 😂😂😂

    I don’t think this is being recapped so I am thankful for somewhere to discuss this anyway!

    (*will this be released in the OST do you think? or will I just get it stuck in my head like the creepy chanting in 9Tails, never to be relieved of its haunting kekeke)

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      what i found funny is the last scene in carriage..

      When the “body” sees the “eyes”.. and it starts acting up vis a vis..
      ML and FL falling on each other with those romantic charged skinships

      I mean i don’t think i would feel any romantic/charged passionate emotions when i see my own eyes .. lol

      **************
      poor ML – 1 half of brain must be like this woman is turning me on, and 2nd half be like.. “Those are my eyes.. my eyes.. my eyes..g ive me back my eyes”

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        I’m trying to write an Ep. 2 review but I keep thinking of demon Ha Ram growling “my eyesss!!! 😂

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    I really liked the fantasy part! The introduction was pretty 🙂

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    I was really surprised that it was more fantasy than saguek and that’s one of the main reasons I liked it so much. Made me realise how I hadn’t watched a fantasy heavy drama in ages. I’m excited for this drama

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      I had my fingers crossed that it was going to be a fantasy sageuk. I had been disappointed that the male lead wasn’t a vampire after I saw the red eyes.

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    OMO! You’re back! I must tell @ndlessjoie

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    I’ll have to see if I can fit it in. I’m not ready to watch anything even remotely creepy for another week or two though.

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    Yes! My favorite genre is fantasy and I was LOVING everything!

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    I am loving everything about it!!!

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I sent an email to DB asking them to address the bot issue.
I can’t take it anymore so will be staying away from the fanwall for the time being.

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IMITATION EP. 9. Thoughts:

1) Hyuk finally spoke to Ria! And about music.
2) La Ri Ma is actually very cool. She’s more interesting than the childish female lead.

cc @waadmay

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    La Rima is the coolest person ever.
    Reyok is most adorkable and Ria is the spunkiest
    Won’t please join discord so we can rant nonstop 😅

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@marcusnyc20 @ndlessjoie
Episode 5 of TWELVE NIGHTS got me very stressed. How can they leave it to fate to meet in 1 year? And why is she back with that Eric jerk? 😫

But guess who showed up.

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    Indie art film, not K-drama romance.

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    You still have 7 episodes to alternate who deserves your anger.

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      You like to see me suffer, don’t you?

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        😆 Maybe? It really disappointed me as a K-Drama romance but it shines if you don’t think of it that way.

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          The story itself has very interesting things going for it if we don’t focus on the romance. But I got so stressed that I was grumpy all day… maybe I have to wait a few days to try Ep. 6.

          Also, this drama has several foreign characters. Unfortunately they are horrible actors and the way they speak is super rude. What kind of professor would say “Shame on you” to a grown up college student? The latest example of bad acting is this Thomas guy who slips into German or English when he needs to, and who tried to flirt with the female lead and looked her all over as she walked away. Disgusting. 🤮

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    @wishfultoki, So in TN you have left 2010 and now we are at 2015, right. The drama used hair style as one way to show the change of time. Hyun-oh (SHS) showed up with a ‘do’ in the style of YSY in PSYCHOPATH DIARY. Naturally in 2018 you will get another look. Yoo-kyung’s (Han Seung-yeon) hairstyle will change also from pony tail to long hair. I forgot her 2015 look. I showed go take a peak.

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      TN preceded PD by two years so maybe YSY ‘stole’ that ‘do’ from SHS. Who knows. Either way not one of my favorites looks for the guys.

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      I preferred his 2010 hair, and hers too. I don’t like her 2015 look. I don’t buy that someone who was confortable in jeans and sneakers in 2010 walks around in high heels and a tight pencil skirt in 2015.

      Anyway, did you notice that the guy in the picture (the airport immigration officer) is Won-yeop? Unless my eyes deceive me… I’m pretty sure it’s him! Ep. 5 around the 4-minute mark.

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        Toki, great ‘Won-yeop’ catch. In HanCinema actor Choo Hyun-kyu is listed as the airport immigration officer. It also lists him as Won-yeop in BOSSAM. In AsianWiki he is listed under Chu Yeon Gu with no TN reference. I was cross eyed trying to nail this guy down in the major english casting sites. (He real needs a better agent 😉). I believe in MDL another actor is listed as the immigration officer. I was totally confused.

        Lol I hope actor Choo Hyun-kyu moves quickly on to a more appealing character so he is not typecast in my mind as the lowlife he played in BOSSAM. Like father, like son only Won-yeop was a lot stupider than his old man.

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          Yay, I’m not crazy! I could not find the actor listed under TWELVE NIGHTS, but it’s such a minor appearance that it’s very likely Asian wiki missed it.

          If this were a reincarnation story it’s exactly what I’d hope for: Won-yeop doomed to an airport officer box, and Dae-yeop becoming a free-spirited dancer. I think this was the nicest brotherly conversation Won-yeop and Dae-yeop ever had.

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I might as well just share the link to the complete BOSSAM playlist.
I have listened to OST 9 too many times. ❤😭

(This is not for the beanie party, just to clarify LOL)

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    Well, I was Going to include them. H3athr Sun did such a good job on her Bossam ballad, that I had to see who she was and found the song, Super Single Magician, which is super fun! I included it on the playlist and thinking of include her Bossam OST too.

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Finally, I was waiting for this! Now I just need the instrumental that plays during Dae-yeop’s scenes. 😭
cc: @mmmmm

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The BOSSAM introduction theme was published!
I loved the way it becomes epic when Yuri shoots that arrow, and also the use of ink illustrations.

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I’m so late to the Beanie Island Party!
@ally-le I don’t know if this has been posted already.

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    You’re not late, we have two more days!!! And no, this one hasn’t been spun yet!

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Episode 20 Recap, written in an airport between flights so there may be mistakes!
(I can’t even rant and cry in an airport, how inconvenient).

https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/07/07/bossam-stealing-fate-episode-20-recap-final-episode/

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    Tagging BOSSAM beanies: @kiara, @mmmmm, @ndlessjoie, @marcusnyc20, @ally-le, @flyingcolours, @jorobertson, @tabitha2, @snowflower, @bbstl, @milena, @yongsital, @sicarius, @jossie4cheryl, @jerrykuvira, @kdramaswimmer, @sparks121, @yulsakura @jk910528 @lindag @hebang @missh @kittymontgomery-mourles @coffeprince4eva @welh @peridot @jillian @irmar @wonhwa @nilsche

    There is a lot to discuss, dissect, and (in my case) rant about. Knock yourselves out.

    Thank you so much for encouraging me to start this blog! I enjoyed it and learned a lot from your comments and insights. 💜

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      Thank you Toki! Wish you a safe and convenient flight! I’ll come back to read it later today as I’m heading outside now!

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        Comment was deleted

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      Hello Toki Thanks so much for your hard work! I would like to thank Kiara, too, as her enthusiasm, together with your and others’, made me interested in this show and watched it until the end.

      1. I hate DY’s ending. I argued so strongly that he should become a monk, so that he could escape being used as a pawn by VP Lee (whom I hate so much.) If you look at how DY had grown up, nobody was sincere to him and that explained how he completely felt lack of love. This could perhaps make him set on the princess from the beginning until the end of his life. (I HATE YOU ALL THE VP LEE’S HOUSEHOLD.) DP is a lovely man, very sincere and noble. He might seem boring to some, but I’d rather be with him than with anyone perhaps in the story. He has a kind and sincere soul; the one that should never be broken. He even escaped EVERYTHING for the previous 19 eps just to end up being stabbed through the back by his ‘father.’ (I just realized that this scene is literally and figuratively meaningful.) I could not believe that he would die so easily, so I held on to the belief that someone might be able to help him until I watched the scene VP Lee asked Ba Woo where he had buried DY. I was literally heart-broken. My poor DY. My poor boy.

      It also reminded me of the discussion/argument I made to some Beanies on DB about how they wanted DY’s story to be in the final ep. I argued very fiercely that he shouldn’t kill VP Lee because he was his own uncle. And look at what happened here: He GOT KILLED by him instead. This made me question my own morality: So should I be more cruel, so that at least I could protect myself? That’s something I’m thinking about these days.

      2. I think many characters acted out of their character in the final eps. Many things seemed rushed, and strange. It’s a pity that we couldn’t get to see the depth of the character Tae Chul. I believe it’s clear that he had always loved Lady Haindang; and that was why he always protected them. I found this transition a bit strange, since he had killed so many innocent people upon the order of VP Lee, but provided help to DY and betrayed VP Lee right now. Why the king’s guard offered help to them was also not clear to me. This seems to contradict to what the character said later on that he had only one king and he would do whatever to protect him (but you’re defying a lot of his orders lately.) What is unclear to me the most is the ending scene. As far as I understand, the princess is now bossamed, so no one knows where she is. My conclusion is that perhaps Kim Dae-sook asked to be relocated to a far-away place (where is next to the sea ofc), and he lived with the princess there. The future of Cha-dol is unknown as now he seems not to have a mother from a noble family.

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        3. I had a bit of a soft spot for the king for almost all the story, but I agreed with the princess and Consort Yun that the king was just trying to protect himself. It seemed to me that he was trying to balance the political power between him and VP Lee all the time, and I felt sorry for him for that. However, the more competent king should be able to do more than that, and should be able to protect his own family as that should be the first priority. So to me, the king was incompetent.

        4. I actually like what VP Lee said that ‘Do you think everything will end once you defeated me?’ because that was what I also thought before. Sadly, this is also confirmed by the actions of Kim Jae-jeom later on when King Injo ruled the country. I thought before this that, even if they removed VP Lee, there would always be another person to come to take his place. That was also why I understood him a bit and why I thought I understood the king. I thought the king also thought that to remove VP Lee right away (probably by just beheading him for some made-up accusation) wasn’t the solution of the problem since there would be another VP Lee, so he might try to balance power instead of just getting rid of him. As it turned out, however, he couldn’t even protect his own family and his actions of using his own daughter many times confirmed that I got a wrong assumption.

        5. I love the show when it showed us how Kim Dae-sook looked at Kim Jae-jeom suspiciously, as he should be, upon hearing he talked about how a man could say two different things from one mouth. I think at that time, KDS began to be suspicious of the promise KJJ made to him about the safety of the princess and Consort Yun. And he was right about that: Once the new king took the throne, he began his search for the princess and her mother right away. He’s just like VP Lee: Very greedy people.

        Thank you everyone again! DY’s ending broke my heart. I love loyal people, but now I’m starting to question myself if being ‘too loyal’ is actually a good thing. No matter how much I like loyalty, I don’t think DY and the king’s guard deserved what they got.

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      Thank you, your Tokiness! This has been so enjoyable and I appreciate your dedication and excellent writing (and of course Korean history knowledge). I will Bossam and your recaps ❤️

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      Thank you for all your work!

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      Thank you a million fold @WishfulToki You served beyond the call of duty and gave us a great space for hanging out and sharing points of view about Bossam, making it so much more enjoyable. Your ancestors would be proud.

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      Quite busy this week with RL stuffs. But will get to the final two episodes soon and then will read ur awesome recap.

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      It ended predictably and was a tad bit shallow, but I did love the realistic portrayal of the women’s lives. I wish we’d had more character development for Ba Woo and more of their rural family life far from the royals.

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        Basically my thoughts (except for ending predictably – I expected more blood and gruesome executions, but then @mmmmm would never watch a sageuk with me again 😇… I say this because the drama was aiming to be realistic and sticking to history, except at the very end when it decided to be romantically vague).

        So I don’t have to write my review anymore? 😂

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          I was seriously contemplating whether I should watch a sageuk again! 😂

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            I won’t force you to watch another one with me, but it was nice to have all three of us watch this one. 😊

            I dare say Muggy has become more bloodthirsty lately. She should know how it feels to lose Stabby OTP!

            I’m going to be mourning for Dae-yeop for a while, because his loyalty deserved more recognition (especially from his so-calledfriend and the bromance that didn’t fully happen 😭)

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            I really think that DY was such a pure and poor soul. Perhaps, the only mistake he had made so far was being loyal to the Princess and loved her into his very last breath. 😭🤧🤧🤧

            I agree. I think Mugy has become bloodthirsty. *sulks*

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            Anyway, I respect her feeling on that. I’m ok since I know Toki and @ally-le mourned the death of DY with me. He could die, yes; but couldn’t he die by the hand of ‘someone else’?

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            If I think about the grand metaphorical meaning of it all, Dae-yeop represents the ideal yangban scholar who values loyalty and filial piety, and therefore could not survive in the corrupt and tumultuous times after the Japanese invaded Joseon.

            But overall his death was pointless and did nothing for the story. 😭 That’s the tragedy of it. I don’t buy that his death may have helped Ba-woo decide to fully join the Westerners to defeat VP Lee. That’s too complicated and risky. Just send an assassin.

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            I think so, too. So pointless. Such a waste (of a young, handsome, lovely, seemingly-noble yangban. ☺️)

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            @wishfultoki and @mmmmm I’m just trying to liven this one up by adding some excitement. I was a lot more invested in my Stabby OTP™ because we understood them and what they were fighting for. The main male characters in this one seemed less developed.

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            And you did such a great job, I though you hated my poor DY!

            *hugs*
            *gives @ndlessjoie a monk fish*

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      @wishfultoki,

      Thank you so much for your hard work and for giving us poor sageuk geeks a home on your block.
      I’ve been so busy, but I’ll get to it soon!

      Much love to you, our wonderful viki subbers, and Mimi @ https://thetalkingcupboard.com/.

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      Thank you Toki for the episode 20 recap and all the recaps. You certainly went above and beyond the call of duty. Congratulations on creating your webpage!
      The comments have been great so I won’t try to match them just to say that I really enjoyed BOSSAM—STEAL THE FATE. Kudos to Jung Il-woo, Yuri, Shin Hyun-soo and the rest of the cast and crew for a great production. It was not the perfect drama but highly enjoyable.
      I want to also thank @kiara for historical background and extras. Thank you,
      I said at the beginning that Ba-woo and the Princess were two historical blank pages. BOSSAM is how the writer filled in those pages. Like others have said the ending was unsatisfactory but what can you do.
      I hope we can all get together again in August for REDSKY. Then perhaps we can segue to Junho’s RED SLEEVE CUFF in October. Followed perhaps in November with Taecyon’s TALE OF ROYAL SECRET INSPECTOR AND JO YI.

      2
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    1/
    Overall, I can appreciate what this drama was trying to do, with its interweaving of fiction with history, but in spite of that I don’t love it.
    Because even though I can appreciate that kind of work, what I look for in stories is strong characters and themes… and I felt that this drama was thematically very dry.
    That’s not to say there weren’t moments- there were, absolutely. But I got very little out of it. I’m still trying to work out why exactly, but I feel that way even so.

    Perhaps most disappointing is, of course, Dae Yeop’s character being relegated to a plot device for the entire run; his death was somewhat inevitable and also predictable, but frustrating and stupid nonetheless.
    A true waste of Shin Hyun Soo, his acting, his charisma and his ability to carry a hanbok better than anyone else on screen.
    (side note: I will forever be mad that the person who got the best and widest variety of hanbok colour combinations and styles was DY’s pathetic, cowardly excuse for a rat of a hyung; he simply did not do them justice and they were deserving of someone far more worthy, who could carry them properly. And also less of a pathetic character.)

    My favourite side characters were actually Jung Yeong, the King’s commander and bodyguard, and Tae Chul, Yi Cheom’s manservant. Both their motivations were slightly questionable in the last quarter (flippity flop whenever the plot may need thee), however I liked their grim, determined but loyal demeanors, both to Lord (or… Son) and to what was right.
    Tae Chul’s backstory interested me but alas was too tied up in Dae Yeop’s poor writing to really have as much impact as it could’ve.
    Jung Yeong’s death was perhaps even more inevitable than Dae Yeop’s, but no less moving, at least for me, and he got one of the best finale lines: “I do not refuse you to be polite, but as for me I have only one Lord.”
    I am just fond of their kind of character archetype, I think.
    (Shout out to Jung Yeong’s actor, Seo Beom Shik, who is as it turns out is a stunt actor with a very prolific filmography, including stunt coordinating and martial arts directing work.
    Stunt actors do NOT get enough credit, so my respect to you, sir. Also, I enjoyed his Last Fight before his Death; despite it being the typical dramatic film kind of sword fighting and being relatively superfluous given the gunmen, it was very satisfying in of itself, and I could actually see and follow what was happening.)

    11
    3

      2/
      I do think this show knew its overall direction from the beginning, I think it intended to go the way it did. And I don’t think it should’ve avoided history altogether like some shows- because it had a purpose; the way I see it this show is like a background supporting, fictionalized but somewhat plausible, version of events leading up to the Fall of Gwanghae.
      However I do think perhaps they lost some of their depth, or potential for depth, by trying so hard to fit fact to fiction, and fiction to fact.
      Because I was not completely convinced by how we *got* to the ending. (Which is probably a large part of why my investment in even the romance was exponentially waning the nearer we got to it.)

      After episode 12 many of the plot points to bring about the resolution felt contrived, weak, and illogical even, particularly in the last two episodes, despite the fact that I could see how hard the show was trying.
      19 is the perfect example of this- of course we KNOW Dae Yeop must find out about his father’s death, just as we know the westerners will stage a coup, but I felt both were handled poorly and the ending rushed.
      (For example, the episode prior DY is not speaking to his mother, then in this episode he is, and the reveal of the handkerchief ends before it has begun, leaving little time for that plot point to not be a red herring. This of course also goes hand in hand with DY being a plot device.)

      I think the princess was the strongest written character of the whole show, and had the most fleshed out thematic arc. She was made believable by the excellent and very convincing Yuri. And I think her moments, particularly with her parents, and in the middle with Ba Woo, were the most moving scenes of all.
      I think HER story worked; but I found most of the rest lacking. Gwanghae’s monologue at the end redeemed some of this for me, but not entirely.

      That was however, one of the few scenes in the last episode I did like- the last drink between king and subject, the first and last bow between father and son-in-law, and a tragic but fitting conclusion to a fallen king*. Although I personally don’t agree with Gwanghae’s statement about being fine with anybody but Yi Cheom ruling (and could argue it was a little out of character), historically it was unavoidable. To have a different ending sentiment would’ve required more to that arc anyway.

      Which, ultimately, is what I think the show needed- to flesh out the rest of its story and characters, to back up its plot from more than just a few episodes out, and perhaps have a stronger central core theme to bring it the whole way through.

      8
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        3/
        I would have a better conclusion and a few more points but I have just been to the dentist and don’t have the head space to write them. (I wrote most of this yesterday)

        One of those points being, that there was the implication that Gwanghae doomed himself to dethronement by abandoning his daughter… I am not sure how I feel about this idea over all. I think it feels a bit weak to me, that that’s what it came down to… did it just need more to it to be convincing or is it just not a convincing idea overall. Not sure.

        Anyway, I don’t think I regret watching at least- I enjoyed being able to discuss and hang out with all you guys every other week especially, and thank you Toki for starting the SageukClub blog. Here’s to its future! (even if I continue to only comment on db).

        (*one day I will write a happy ending for Gwanghae. Or maybe just one where he is avenged, cos I can. Technically already have a draft for the latter. But yeah, either/or/both.)

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      Omo Queen you LOVE the same characters as I do! I love those two men to bits! They’re so loyal, and loyal is the new (oh it’s always been) sexy.

      4
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      Jung Yeong’s death was handled quite well, in my opinion. I was in for the epic swordfight that would predictably end why is heroic demise, and then they go BAM and shoot him down. I was truly surprised, and for a second felt a bit let down (love a bit of epic sword fighting) but his sacrifice was befittingly senseless – he was serving an undeserving king

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        I do think his death was fitting for his role in the story, whether it be by gun or sword, although as @hebang has already pointed out on my wall- why waste the sword fodder, when you have the guns…

        Idk about an undeserving king though… I suppose that depends on how you view one’s duty to your sworn sovereign, and whether or not one things Gwanghae was undeserving overall, of both any loyalty or anything else, in this or in history… I feel like I’m becoming a bit of a Gwanghae apologist, @kiara how did this happen, do I blame TCC or this, or you or what? lmao

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          I don’t know about the real Gwanghae, but in the drama I felt that as a monarch he only ruled on survival mode. Like, he doesn’t show any vision for the country, he’s just reacting without further insight, and avoiding VP Lee’s taking over, under the argument that that would stir civil war. Not to mention his willingness to use Sookyung as a pawn over and over again… Couldn’t he think out of the box for once? (*eyeroll)

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            I wrote a long post on Gwanghae that took me an hour to write and it was lost in the void 😭 I’ll be back later and try again.

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            @wishfultoki oh no! I really wanted to know your opinion about Gwanghae 😭

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            Second try. This is also in answer to @hebang

            So, I was saying that the Gwanghae that we see in this drama seems disillusioned and broken by factionalism. In the early episodes he tried to enact some tax reforms but was blocked by VP Lee and all the other ministers. The drama glossed over some of the difficulties of his reign, sometimes only mentioning them in passim. For example, the fact that nobles had private armies again (with the excuse to defend themselves from the Japanese) hadn’t happened since the 14th century. One of the first things Taejong did when he got the throne was prohibit nobles from having private armies, precisely so they wouldn’t be able to threaten the king or revolt. The Imjin War (Japanese invasions) left a country devastated and royal power in shambles.

            I need to dig more into this, but I feel that Gwanghae was more successful as Crown Prince. After 1608 he owed the Northerners the throne and he could never shake them off. In this drama he is nostalgic for the old days when he led the people and fought with them, and when he played with his little daughter. Like he said, he had dreams… but trying to pit the factions against each other exhausted him.

            I think I am well on my way to becoming a Gwanghae apologist, so it’s worth remembering that the drama also portrayed him as someone who 1) has anger issues 2) likes to wallow in self-pity and 3) has a cruel streak. I do think @sicarius has a point that the drama tried to say that in abandoning his daughter he brought his dethronement on himself, but I am also not a fan of that explanation. There was a lot more happening.

            And we see the cycle starting again with Injo, who is brought to the throne by the Westerners. He even has a VP Lee wanabee in Kim Ja-jeom. Unfortunately Injo knew much less than Gwanghae about foreign diplomacy and it resulted in the Manchu invasions.

            I thought at one point the drama was criticising the evils of factionalism, when Ba-woo criticised the sheep mentality of the factions… but then he joined the Westerners! (Which is my least favorite thing in the finale). This brings me to another point, that Ba-woo’s character seemed to lose some coherence when he became a yangban. The Ba-woo that I knew would have called them all ridiculous nobles and left them to kill each other. Joining a coup just for the purpose of getting rid of VP Lee was a really complicated and risky move, and like Sic pointed out, seemed driven more by a desire to fit fiction to history than actual character development. I don’t know if it’s my anti-Injo bias speaking, but my heart sank when Ba-woo himself opened the palace gates. He could have bossamed VP Lee or sent an assassin instead. Dae-yeop had the right idea but couldn’t do it.

            Gwanghae’s dethronement wasn’t inevitable and the drama did a good job in showing that he was not “fated” to lose the throne. However, the way we got to it wasn’t 100% satisfactory.

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            I should point out that one thing I loved is the irony that VP Lee went down in the history books as being executed for being loyal to Gwanghae, while the drama shows that actually VP Lee was doing his utmost to be disloyal. In fact his actions weakened the king’s power so much that he couldn’t/wouldn’t do much to save his throne in the end.

            I liked the actor’s portrayal. VP Lee was the main villain, and Gwanghae was someone whom I sometimes saw as a villain and at other times as a victim.

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            @wishfultoki. I think it’s interesting that Gwanghae lived a long time in exile – 18 years, while there seems to be a lot of deaths in the family in 1623?

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            @hebang Yes, I think it’s interesting that Gwanghae was allowed to live in exile and wasn’t finished off while on the island. I guess that shows how inoffensive and weak the Westerners considered him.

            I also think it’s interesting that the Westerners hardly did anything in this show and yet the king lost his throne. Gwanghae practically hands over power to them in Ep. 20. He knew what they were up to. They did not outsmart him. But the way the Westerners wrote the history made it seem like they engineered a dramatic coup.

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          Based on the bits of history I know, his policies were arguably correct/better – as shown by what happened when they were changed by those that replaced him.

          But, history isn’t written (or made) necessarily by those who were right…

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          @sicarius
          I haven’t seen the last 2 episodes yet. Does it make sense that I love the actor but not the character?
          I didn’t feel that this Gwanghae had any “purpose” besides being a poor excuse of a father and a political playmate to VP Lee. The best part for me was digging up old historical files that I kept from “Hur Jun, The Original Story”(2013).
          Don’t get me started on pitiful Dae-yeop.

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            Makes total sense lol.

            I think this in conjunction with, @ndlessjoie saying she found the ending a bit shallow, @flyingcolours finding him only reactionary and unable to think outside the box, and my own comments about about finding the show thematically dry and unconvincing in its resolution, just isolates and confirms the main problem- the thematic and character writing is weak and relatively shallow on average, and for this show to be more more satisfying overall they needed to flesh out everything and every one a lot more.
            Dae Yeop’s entire character and arc would have to be rewritten to have any of the desired impact we want from it.
            I want to defend this version of Gwanghae more but I can’t really, because there isn’t enough for me to defend. I wasn’t won over by this retelling of Yi Heon’s downfall, and although his monologue at the end is heart wrenching, it could’ve been so much more impactful overall.

            Anyway, @hebang, that’s why we just write our own versions of things, to make something out of lost potential 😉

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            I totally agree @kiara. I had a good idea Dae Yeop wasn’t going to be with us to the end, but I never cared enough about him for it to matter. Most of the characters weren’t fully fleshed out.

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        Tbh, I almost laughed in a bitterly way when Jung Yeong’s was shot to death. It was a heart-breaking scene, yes it was, but why wasting your energy wielding your sword when you can also have guns. So instead of being so immersed in this man’s demise, I felt it was anti-climatic for me. It didn’t make me like this character any less though. I agree with Sic’s opinion. that the actor portraying Jung Yeong character is just superb: He radiates this aura that I couldn’t just take my eyes off of him. Just like Tae-Chul, he was calm, composed, and his micro expressions were gold. I am very happy that this character was played by this man.

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    @wishfultoki Thank you for your efforts!

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    Excellent recap, thank you. At the end, when Bawoo and Yuri are strolling along the beach, it occurred to me that they might have joined the king in exile on Jeju and have created another found family. Is this a stretch too far? Anyway, I do wish the ending had taken us back to the outlaw family together again and not just the main leads. As someone else commented, the OTP didn’t have enough focus in the latter half and I, for one, lost the sense of their unity. The bossam felt contrived as the family hadn’t, and I needed the family unit again to feel a sense of ending. Overall though, a refreshing show and I really appreciate that you took the time to recap. On to the next Sageuk!

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      The ending was pretty open-ended/vague so it’s anyone’s guess… I think it’s unlikely they might want to live with the king in exile, but I like your theory. I wanted to see the whole family alive and well too.

      If DB doesn’t recap RED SKY I think I might. It’s a tale of Grand Prince Anpyeong’s time, which ties in nicely with the romantic novel that Soo-kyung wrote. 😁

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        Oh, yes please. Let’s hope dbs spares you the labour, but if not, long live the sageuk club. It’s so interesting having the historical background fleshed out, and with different takes on the history from everyone. I’m tolerant of narrative outcomes because writers have so many constraints, even in a 20 episode drama. I love dramas that resonate with history and create a narrative that lives within the silences. Bossam was unique in that it focussed so strongly on the role of widows and offered so much authenticity. I loved seeing how the princess’s life opened out for her, after the outrage of the kidnapping. The King’s weakness, although horribly frustrating, was tragic, as portrayed in his final speech. I hope his subsequent days were peaceful and not filled with regrets. DY had to die in order to give closure to his ill-fated love. I don’t think we could have had more character development there without sacrificing focus on the OTP (and conflicting viewers even more). Second leads are designed to squeeze our hearts. In the end he lived to be used, and I guess the same applies for his character in the drama. I wonder what an alternative drama would look like that gave him a more developed narrative arc. Rather than becoming a monk, I’d like to see him wander the world, meet a woman who loved him, and spend the rest of his happy days in a mountain retreat surrounded by little DYs.

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          I love your Dae-yeop ending.
          (Stabbed in the back grrrr.)

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            He’d still think fondly of the princess because that’s the kind of love you never get over.

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            @marcusnyc20 Not exactly what you had in mind when you said you hoped he went down swinging, right? 😭

            @jorobertson He totally wrung our hearts. I’ll pretend he went to China and took on a new identity, and 10 years later met Crown Prince Sohyeon and finally had a real friend.

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            Toki, DY not taking out VP Lee when he had the chance was a huge mistake. After he dropped his sword I knew he was a goner. (Great death scene by SHS et al).

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          I thought China was a possibility. Maybe he became a clever strategist to the Emperor and for a reward …

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        I was thinking about Red Sky. I’ve been looking forward to it. I heard, however, that character names were changed (probably due to some of the public outrage we saw with dramas like Joseon Exorcist). Do you know if this is true? I still see the original character names on the Asianwiki page for the drama.

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          Oh noo! I hadn’t heard about that. I hope they don’t decide to throw history out the window and go full fantasy/fiction. 😞

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            @wishfultoki,
            We have the two sageuk REDS coming along and both are based on novels:
            1. RED SKY is based on the novel “Hong Chun-gi” (2016) by Jung Eun-gwol who also wrote “The Moon that Embraces the Sun” (2005) and “The Lives of Sungkyunkwan Confucian Scholars (2007);
            2. RED SLEEVE CUFF is based on a novel by Kang Mi-gang. Wikipedia says RSC is based on a novel by the same name. I can’t find out in English anything about the novelist.
            Although both dramas have actual historical figures it seems that RED SKY is more a fantasy, historical romance drama and RED SLEEVE CUFF is a historical romance drama. Either way both will require research particularly RSC I would think.

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            I like a fantasy when done right (I am actually hoping that a good period piece with a fantasy or folkloric element will be made in the near future. Arang and the Magistrate remains one of my favorite dramas). That being said, if you have such an interesting historical context, you should make full use of it. Maybe we’ll find out more as we get closer to the premiere date.

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Not my favorite episode, but I will hide my pain
Here’s the BOSSAM Ep. 19 Recap: https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/07/06/bossam-stealing-fate-episode-19-recap/

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    I’m on the road and couldn’t get internet yesterday to post this. I will try to get to Ep. 20 soon! Also I haven’t watched it yet because I’m worried about being disappointed lol.

    Tagging BOSSAM beanies: @kiara, @mmmmm, @ndlessjoie, @marcusnyc20, @ally-le, @flyingcolours, @jorobertson, @tabitha2, @snowflower, @bbstl, @milena, @yongsital, @sicarius, @jossie4cheryl, @jerrykuvira, @kdramaswimmer, @sparks121, @yulsakura @jk910528 @lindag @hebang @missh @kittymontgomery-mourles @coffeprince4eva @welh @peridot @jillian @irmar @wonhwa @nilsche

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      Thank you!

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      Toki, I’m legit sad. I watched ep20 and finished just now. I won’t spoil you. I need time to comprehend this.

      @hebang Give me some time. I need some time.

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        I’ve watched Ep. 20 now. I’m sending you a big hug @mmmmm. There is indeed a lot to think about… hopefully I can write a recap that makes sense, because I’m still scratching my head at certain parts. 😥

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          I feel you Toki! I don’t know a lot of historical stuff, but I felt like it would be perhaps difficult for you to explain certain things in the story, especially for the last few eps. *hugs back*

          I, too, am thinking about the discussion we had about certain actions that DY could have done… I’ll write more in the last ep’s recap since I don’t want to spoil others.

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      Thank you,toki! 🐇

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      Thanks Toki~ wasn’t my favourite episode either. In fact probably one of my least. Will save my thoughts for the final though.

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      I’m looking forward to whether I’m right or not about who dies. @mmmmm‘s reaction makes me think I’m correct, or maybe he becomes a formerly murderous almost king monk?

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      Thank you so much, Toki!

      I haven’t watched either 19 or 20 with subs, and I don’t know if I want to. LOL

      Enjoy the summer, and we’ll meet again for the next sageuks!

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      Thank you Toki for the recap of episode 19. I will pick out three things in order of importance:
      1. Chun-bae slapping his sinful hand. Was that in that in the script or from LJH? I think it was the latter. (Thank you Lee Joon-hyuk (1984) for a great performance.)
      2. Dae-yeop’s tears after Soo-kyung’s departure. Heart breaking is all I can say.
      3. Consort Yun. Kudos to actress So Hee-jung. Consort Yun laid both the King and Court lady Kim out. She was great and thanks Toki for highlighting her anger.
      Now on to episode 20 (final).

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    But damn, that was a stupid plan, and if witty princess planned this with them, not pleased at all.

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    It was a convoluted episode: all the running around and everyone acting unilaterally with good intentions. But Soo-kyung got to tell DY and the king that she was married, a straightforward and smart move.

    Court Lady Kim Gae-shi is almost as vile as V P Lee. These people who *know the mind of the king* and act on his behalf are despicable, The king’s weakness is becoming frustrating, and I have to keep reminding myself what little support he had because of the power of the factions. It all makes me think about Jeong Do-jeon’s shattered ideal for Joseon and how that all panned out with clans and their allies pitted against each other. Kim Tae-woo as Gwanghaegun is doing a great job.

    On the fraught matter of our precious Yi Dae-yeob: it was great to see him working with BW. I hoped that would happen. I expected that when he found about his father’s death, it would be a pivot point for him. But V P Lee’s efforts to throw Soo-kyung at him show how little he understands DY. So ham fisted. While we hate V P Lee, I actually think he’s not such a smart guy, just evil, with no boundaries.

    Well, it’s all winding up and I guess they had to squeeze a lot in, but my overall sense, having seen the final episode, is they kept us guessing right up until the end, so the confusion in this episode seems like a bit of a filler. It’s so great though that they acheived the ratings record.

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    This episode was annoying. I found myself wishing the princess had learned to use a sword instead of the bow and arrow.

    Watching Court Lady Kim take some punishment was the only satisfying part. How does the Royal Consort think the king would survive a transfer of power to a new king chosen by evil Lee?

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@ndlessjoie I started TWELVE NIGHTS. It’s nice to see Dae-yeop smiling and wandering around Seoul in sandals. The FL has a tendency to lose her personal belongings but otherwise I enjoyed Ep. 1.


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    This is one of my favorite.

    It is a slow burn but it is such comfort tv.

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    I think you’ll like this one.

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    Ooh I just read about this on MDL after your screenshots! I’ve been wanting to watch a road drama that showcases Sk/Seoul. This looks like it might be the one. I’m adding this to my watchlist!

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      It’s more like a slow indie film.

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        I watched a bit last night, and this is so totally my kind of stuff!! Thank you for recommending. I’m looking forward to the rest of it now! Resisting the urge to binge, because such shows are best enjoyed slowly and steadily, I feel.

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    @wishfultoki, you are in for a treat. TWELVE NIGHTS was one of my favorites of 2018. It was from little Channel A. It aired one episode a week on Fridays at 11pm. As you can imagine the ratings were abysmal. However Viki subbed it (thank you Viki!) and I recall some nice exchanges at the time with fellow beanies. I remember it as my Sunday night viewing. This is where I became a Shin Hyun-soo fan and probably why I have had a soft spot for Dae-yeop in BOSSAM.
    It had a great cast. In the cast is the wonderful Ye Soo-jung who was brilliantly cast (against type) as a photographer whose goal is to get to the Serengeti!
    As you can tell I loved it. I hope more new SHS fans find their way to TWELVE NIGHTS.

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      Also one reason why I took a look at TN is that part of episode one was filmed in NYC and their was a brief shot of my local subway stop in Queens. Continuity wise it made no sense but I got a kick out of it.

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      Thanks @marcusnyc20 bongsoo!
      I’m enjoying Shin Hyun-soo’s performance very much. I feel this is a drama to watch slowly and savor every episode. It didn’t get recapped and doesn’t even appear on DB’s list of shows, so if it weren’t for beanie recommendations I wouldn’t have picked it up.
      Ep. 1 was quite a relaxing watch (except for the fact that the female lead keeps losing her wallet, her camera, etc. how did she survive in NYC again?). The guys who run the guesthouse had me in stiches with their tour of the guesthouse where nothing worked.

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        Toki, when the BOSSAM ratings challenge video was released I said SHS (all 6’ 2’’ inches of him) was the best dancer of the three! By watching TN will see why I said that.

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        Omo, this is exactly what I said two comments above, before I read this one. Hahaha. This gives me ‘The Package’ vibes, but I like the pacing and tone in this much more.

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    I hated that show with all my heart. I wanted back the time I wasted for it. The wishy-washy characters taking stupid, illogical decisions, and leaving to fate whether they will meet again … What?
    I hated it, if possible, more than episodes 13-16 of Something in the Rain. And that’s saying something!

    1
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      Oh no! I still haven’t watched beyond Ep 1. I liked the vibe of it. I’m not sure how much wishy washiness I can take, but I will give it a good chance.

      0
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        I don’t know what is your limit, I usually give dramas a chance for 4 episodes or so. But with this one I kept saying “No, it’s not possible, this thing will change, will evolve, it won’t keep being like this”. Stupid me. Now I cannot get these hours back, ever.

        1
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          I also have a 4-episode rule… I guess I’ll find out! I was duped by THE KING: ETERNAL MONARCH last time, where I kept hoping it would get better and it didn’t, and then I flipped my laptop with the ending.

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Bossam Episode 18 Recap is up! I can’t believe the drama ends next week. https://sageukclub.wordpress.com/2021/06/29/bossam-stealing-fate-episode-18-recap/

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    Tagging BOSSAM beanies: @kiara, @mmmmm, @ndlessjoie, @marcusnyc20, @ally-le, @flyingcolours, @jorobertson, @tabitha2, @snowflower, @bbstl, @milena, @yongsital, @sicarius, @jossie4cheryl, @jerrykuvira, @kdramaswimmer, @sparks121, @yulsakura @jk910528 @lindag @hebang @missh @kittymontgomery-mourles @coffeprince4eva @welh @peridot @jillian @irmar @wonhwa @nilsche

    Question of the day: Is Dae-yeop a historical or fictional character? I’m going with fictional for now, but I’m happy to be corrected if someone tells me he is Yi Tae-ung. His possibility of survival is greater that way 😂

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      Since I’ve decided he’s the character most likely to have a tragic (but typical) sageuk ending, I’m going with fictional.

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      @wishfultoki, I always yield to @kiara’s expertise and opinion on the question you raised.
      However, after a cursory search, the one wiki source I could find on Prince Imhae has this under “Consort and their Respective Issue(s): Yi Tae-Ung (1589-1665) (이태웅) – an Iryeon Buddhist (일연스님). Fwiw here is the source:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Imhae

      A couple quick thoughts. Those dates would probably work for our ‘sudden, Prince.
      However, I think I would rather see Dae-yeop go down swinging rather than end up an old (with all due respect) monk. Sorry.

      (O/T. Whoever on the BOSSAM production crew has been responsible for costuming Shin Hyun-soo (our Dae-yeop) after the final episode has to receive some kind of award or notice for their impeccable taste. He has looked outstanding the entire drama! Lol credit has to go to SHS also.)

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        @marcusnyc20,

        I find Dae-yeop pitiful in this corrupted world of bloody politics. Since birth, he has been used by the king and his uncle, so what does he need to go down fighting for?
        I’m pro-life, so if he ends up being a monk and lived a more peaceful life, then good for him.

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          I totally agree that Dae-yeop’s life has been pitiful. He was happiest in his youth being with the Princess. We now know why Uncle put the kibosh to a possible marriage between the two. The reason given the King was rather preposterous.
          I don’t know. Becoming a monk can’t be his only option.

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          If DY has children, do they become pawns in the “Who is the Rightful King?” Game? Just like he is? If so, he really should become a monk.

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      I vote historical, just because I really want him to survive the drama and find a happy(ish?) life.
      Besides, I hate the sageuk trope of killing off the SL to save the FL – Drama, you’re warned! (*waves finger)

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        Me true. It’s boring if he doesn’t make it till the end. Let’s have him becoming a monk. He doesn’t want the throne anyway; his mother’s heart also won’t break.

        There is also a monk that’s been present throughout this story; I think he has a chance of becoming a monk. He will also be able to see/hear about the princess’s happiness for the rest of his life, and he won’t have to marry any other women.

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          This! She was his first and only love, and it’s super romantic that he would become a monk to preserve that.

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          Yes about the head monk serving as a nod to that possibility.

          Last episode, when Da-yeop spoke to Ba-woo about the possibility of being friends in a next life, didn’t the latter (jokingly) find it odd that a very Confucian yangban would be speaking about reincarnation (like a Buddhist)? That could be another nod to the monastic future of our second lead.

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      Thank you so much, Toki!

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      It stressed me out to watch this episode, but reading the (excellent) recap stressed me out all over again. I’m so worried for them all and the potential pain ahead. I’m ok for DY to become a monk. I want BW, the princess and Cha-dol to live a happy rural life, and I want VP Lee to get what’s coming to him. History being such a spoiler, I’m afraid I won’t get my last wishes. Groan.

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        The stress! The headache! *grabs neck like Lady Jeong* I have no idea what will happen next week. I know the bare bones of the history but it will require some massive twists for us to get there.

        Fingers crossed that our characters have a happy rural life, preferably on an island to avoid the future Manchu invasion 😆

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        Is it too much to ask for Dae Yeob to go on a murderous rampage (since I think he’ll die anyway) that includes wiping out VP Lee and sons? That’s the ending I want to see.

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          Lol, you’re so bloodthirsty! 😂 You may get your wish for a murderous rampage though… VP Lee will get what is coming to him if the writers follow history. The question is if he will drag our characters down with him.

          @jorobertson let’s stack up on that calming herbal tea before watching the final episodes.

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            Sipping miso soup too and lying around. Trying hard not to take to hard liquor. It’s cold and raining and we’re in lockdown. Will they get over the wall or not??? I can’t do anything else until I know.

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            Any chance of the 1623 coup by the Western Faction comes along in this drama? Aren’t we at about the right point in history?

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            Am I transforming into @sicarius? 😲😂

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            I guess I’ll be fine with VP Lee meeting a just end… *sulks*

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            It’s all those times I probationally beheaded you @ndlessjoie, they’re rubbing off on you

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            @hebang We are in 1623 so you can bet on it. It might be bloody but at least Muggy will be happy. *sips tea*

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            @wishfultoki So, a coup as a sort of dues ex machine to kill off the baddies, replace the king with incompetent idiots, and our found family goes off to Jeju to live a long and happy life? Hmmm….

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            @hebang That’s history? A deus ex machina comes out of nowhere but we’ve been literally following the struggle between king and ministers all drama. If we consider it a deus ex machina, it’s an evil one for putting incompetent fools in power and ruining Joseon. 🙈

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            Dues ex machine in the sense that while we’ve gotten numerous scenes of VP Lee’s faction scheming away, we really haven’t been shown the western faction putting a coup together. If one didn’t know history, the drama would not have led the viewer to expect a western faction coup taking out VP Lee and his cronies.

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          Omo! That is too much to ask for ofc! I know how upset you’re, but DY lacks love and has been trying to do his best for everyone around. And VP Lee is his own uncle, I don’t think he’ll be able to do anything harmful to him. He leads a complicated and sad life: Having always been a power play pawn.

          At least he should be able to become a monk, so he will be finally peaceful. Can’t he become a monk? 🥺

          *pleading eyes*

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            He’d become a monk and pine for her the rest of his life. I’d rather he exact vengeance.

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            @mmmmm, @ndlessjoie,
            Got to do it in the right order.
            1. Exact bloody vengeance.
            2. Empty one’s self of worldly desires
            3. Become a monk.

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            Noooo! 🥺😱😱 You can’t exact vengeance and become a monk to redeem yourself! It’s not how it’s supposed to be done!

            *cries* 😭

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            If he exacts vengeance, what will he get? The person who killed his father is his own uncle, so he’s gonna kill his uncle and cousins and what? Will he also kill the present king? What will he get in the end? Nothing but the hatred from the Princess.

            Even if you’re bloodthirsty, I can’t see how this will lead to a satisfying ending. The only way for him not becoming anyone’s pawn is to become a monk. Sad, but that’s it.

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            He’ll get the satisfaction of ending his tormentors and I’ll get the satisfaction of watching the end of VP Lee.

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            We really are opposites.

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            @mmmmm
            In Hospital Playlist 2, there is a quotealong the lines of – sometimes bad things happen to good people.

            In Realpolitik, there is a corresponding quote
            Sometimes good people have to bad things.

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            @hebang Why do good people have to bad things? 🥺

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            @mmmmm
            Because there is evil in this world.

            A long time ago at college, I was taking a political science course. As part of the class, we had to review a book from a list. I chose one that had been authored by the professor teaching the course and his colleagues. I had difficulty with the perspective of the book, and said so in my paper – and not gently. Fortunately for me, a TA graded my paper – and told me that the key to understanding the book was to realize some people simply do not believe evil exists. That people like the professor think things like the Holocaust, the massacres of Cambodians by the KhmerRouge, etc. were all ultimately misunderstandings. That school of thought believes that people like me that believe evil exists are the problem. They are very sincere in their belief. Just as sincerely, I disagree with them…

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            I believe that there is evilness in the world, but there are ways to deal with it I think. I really want someone to just kill off VP Lee and the son and his gang, but I don’t want it to be DY because he believes in filial duty (besides that would break his mother’s heart). I believe he knows right from wrong and hopefully he can find a way to accomplish his believe without turning into another person who kills his own kins.

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            I can’t believe I’m only finding the rest of this now~

            Highkey into @hebang‘s version of events actually… I would tweak it slightly however:
            He doesn’t eradicate his enemies out of vengeance, he eradicates them so they can commit no more evil in the world.
            And THEN he becomes a monk… 😉

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            *brings DY to sip tea together somewhere*
            *allows some bloody vengeance to happen led by beautiful and kind and bloodthirsty Beans* *sobs*
            *sulks*
            *sips tea together with DY and the Princess and already clean out-of-the-shower Ba Woo.*

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            But whatever Queen says: I like her rants so I’m cutting her some slack.

            🤣

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            It’s not because Sicarius doesn’t literally mean assassin or anything, it’s not because I don’t have an OC with a story arc similar to the version of events mentioned, albeit with more steps and more complicated (ofc)… it’s definitely not got anything to do with either of those things at all. 😛

            Tbh, I wouldn’t personally pick this arc for Dae Yeop in particular, at least not with how this show and his character is currently written, but I DO like the idea in general… hehehehe

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            If DY character wants to evict the baddies, I won’t be able to do anything about that. But if he wants, we can start packing things and leave the capital together with Ba Woo’s household to a place I will never tell you.

            Ofc, I’ll take BB Kim Seon-ho with me. I wanted to take Queen, too, but at this rate you might poison (some of) us to death.

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            @mmmmm hang round me long enough, you might warm up to the idea of God-fearing assassins and warrior monks eventually ; )

            And no fear of me poisoning you, unless you plan to commit treason, like @ndlessjoie has in the past. : P But look at her now! Absolutely fine, nothing to worry about…

            (also I’m really annoyed that db keeps autoemoji-ing now- HAJIMA)

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            You make me scared, Queen, I’d rather hang around with Toki. 🥺

            Look at what you’ve done to Mugy! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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            whilst I’m waiting patiently for the final two recaps,
            @mmmmm @hebang– I was reminded of your conversation when I saw this quote again today.

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          I don’t want DY to be a murderer and I’m sulking, too!

          *sulks*

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            I don’t see Dae-yeop becoming a murderer. He’s a good swordsman but he doesn’t actually kill most of his opponents. He disagrees with VP Lee’s modus operandi of killing people to silence them…

            Let’s wait and see what happens in Ep. 19. Maybe we will sulk afterwards or maybe not. 😂

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            @wishfultoki I can always count on Toki to be gentle. *approving nods* In any case, we can be the sulking trio and we’ll still look great.

            But let’s keep DY, he’s cute.

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      Excuse me these people are the slowest, most inefficient, and stupidest ladder climbers I’ve ever seen. It really is the smallest of things that pull me out of a drama.
      Oh yes now is OBVIOUSLY the time to hang around and talk about who goes first, playing a game of Noble Idiocy with a ladder and medium sized wall, when two of you are wanted criminals.
      With such a risky scheme, whose gloriously bright idea was it to not plan the order and execution ahead. Who are you people! You all climb up, fast, in a third of the time that took you. You pull the ladder up and put it down the other side. You climb down. You don’t get caught because nobody is talking and wasting time. It’s really not that hard.
      Oh but wait Sic, we need a cliff hangar and conflict for next episode… Sigh.

      Prettiest Kdrama wedding I’ve ever seen, though.

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        I’m with you on this Sic. They should have sent Court Lady Jo to the temple with Cha Dol. She’s not that young anymore to be climbing medium-sized ladders in a jiffy. She also has a tendency to slow things up by deferring to the Princess (it happened in Ep 7, where she dawdled so much that the slave hunters got them). She can’t really help them so what was the point of bringing her along? 🙄

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        Yes, right? Queen, I had TROUBLE watching that ladder scene I almost wanted the Princess caught. How stupid were they to chat while the guards were all around.

        *kicks the ladder to make it fall down out of anger*

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        Reminds me of Aliens where they did away with most of the Marines by having them do something utterly stupid. My thought was it would have been much more interesting if the Marines had been competent and still were annihilated. But much harder to write.

        Same thing with this scene in Bossam to a lesser degree. I mean, getting caught while sneaking into a heavily guarded palace – how hard is that without making the protagonists utterly dumb?

        And yes, a very pretty wedding!

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          It’s a common problem in a lot of writing- the balance between the intelligence of your protagonists and antagonists, and how to make conflict believable without sacrificing one or the other. I can think of several dramas (TCC, Lookout, Vincenzo, Arthdal lmao to name a few) that had to resort to dumbing down either their hero or their villain, or making someone go OOC, in order for their climax to happen or their story to conclude.
          I also think it’s more interesting if people are competent and the conflict is more balanced and ergo authentic, and this is consistent throughout an entire story, but you are right, it is much harder to write. Or rather, it requires you to ACTUALLY write, and not just be lazy.

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        Yes, yes, yes!

        I like this drama, but I am super critical of such silly scenes.

        I also don’t like when our characters are fighting, but will suddenly stop to speak or look longingly at another character. And everyone else seems to stop fighting as well, even the evil-doers. How respectful of them to give our characters that special time!
        This happens in so many dramas. Ugh!

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        Sic, the wedding scene was lovely. Was the very next scene the following morning where Ba-woo bumps into his mother where she asked him to have breakfast?
        I mean the last time (I think) we saw Ba-woo in bed was with his son.
        We did see two pairs of shoes outside. Maybe the censors were particularly tough that day.

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          Yes, his mum invited him to have breakfast and asked if he had a good dream (“pregnancy dream”). I didn’t have room to add that in the recap. Lady Jeong went really fast from hating daughter-in-law to wanting another grandchild though.

          It has to be a writing or directing decision. I’ve seen both leads in dramas before where they had no problem kissing. I’m fine with it but viewers were pretty upset on MDL: “We waited so long to see shoes!” 😂

          We still have 2 more episodes so maybe there is still hope… Ally is going kill me if the only kiss we get is between Lady Jo and Chun-bae.

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            I’ve appreciated the gradual, more realistic portrayal of their relationship. That being said, I don’t think it’s too much to expect a kiss now. The two pairs of shoes lead me to believe that something did happen, but I wish we would have had a nice kiss scene before the relationship progressed that much. 🙂

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        That always drives me up the wall, bun intended.

        That and two former street rats chasing an old guy who outran them the whole dang time.

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    I’m holding off on watching this episode and watching the last three together. I’ll catch up with you then as well! Thank you for the labor of love!

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    I guess they have some kind of ‘no kissing’ element to their contract 😂 If we didn’t get a kissing scene on such a pretty wedding I don’t think we’ll see it ever! Unless they decide to end the drama with one

    And how frustrating was that ladder scene? Come on people! Speed up! Ugh

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@ndlessjoie not a magical wiki family tree, but this is the best I could do.

Contains spoilers for Ep. 17.

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