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Open Thread #50

 
What a weird, crazy, hectic week.

Hope you’re all keeping well. TGIF.

SONG OF THE DAY

Carla Bruni – “Le Temps Perdu” [ Download ]

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anyone watch the VP debates?

Palin has no subsistence....which is sad because the average joker of America would vote for her just because they'd want to sleep with her.

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I was pretty sure she'd acquit herself well (and she did because expectations were so low) because while she's come off as a blathering idiot recently, I don't think she actually is one. But I got so frustrated when she would talk AROUND all the damn questions and never answer anything. All rhetoric and talking points.

I was really impressed with Biden, beyond my expectations. He knew what he was talking about, he gave concrete facts, when he attacked McCain's policy he was informed. I understand Palin was going for folksy charm, but really? You have to waste time in a national debate to give a shout-out to your brother's third-grade class? I was really irritated with her inability to answer a question with anything remotely substantial.

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So glad it is the weekend. I listened to Palin but it sound like she was just repeating lines fromt he ads over and over.

I was tired of the "gosh darn, golly" crap.

Let's be honest if you took a debate class and did what Sarah Palin did you wouldn't pass the class

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carla bruni! classic!

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I heard the distinction between Palin and Biden put best as, Biden prepared for this debate his entire life in the Senate while Palin spent two weeks preparing with speech coaches and McCain advisers. Everything she said came across as competent, but over-rehearsed (and not to mention having almost nothing to do with the question asked of her). But, you know what? I'm not going to worry. The quick polling done last night after the debate was over was going heavily in Biden's favor. If America has any sense, they're going to wake up and wonder WHY McCain chose her exactly.

On another, sad, note, the Huffington Post this morning put up an article on Choi Jin-Sil. Nothing new in their article, but it's nice that they even picked up on this international story.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/choi-jin-sil-south-korean_n_131124.html

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Also, I really don't understand the need to have someone "just like us" in the White House. Just because Palin might seem like a person I wouldn't mind as my next-door neighbor doesn't mean I want my neighbor in the second highest position of the country.

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indeed, thank god it's friday. time for a nap.

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Didn't actually watch the debate, but I heard it in the background, although most of it was drowned out by my roommates' yelling at the screen. I kind of just wanted to cover my ears and block it all out, which I guess is probably not the civic duty thing to do, but there you go.

Yay, today is payday, woo hoo! Now let's see if I can make it last throughout the weekend...

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If I hear the word "Maverick" one more time, I will go to each DVD store in my local vacinity and burn every copy of that useless Mel Gibson movie. Glad to see Biden nail her on that. Also, ANSWER THE QUESTION Mrs. Palin. She kept sidestepping the questions so that she could utter her prepared "Aww shux", "Joe Six-Pack & Hockey moms", catch phrases. She drove me absolutely insane with her fembot ways. Her responses held about as much substance as a plastic Barbie. Funny how she admittedly doesn't know the cause of climate change and doesn't think it is entirely man caused, yet she spits out rhetoric of hard carbon emission caps. Blah blah blah.

Very impressed with Biden. He came with the meat. Facts, numbers, policy changes, an understanding of the actual issues, and most of all HE ADDRESSED THE QUESTIONS BEING ASKED. I actually like him more than Obama to be honest.

Also regarding the latest celebrity suicide. I am doubtful, but hope this teaches netizens to not so carelessly spread vicious rumors that attacks a person's character and integrity. Koreans especially hold honor at such a high value that when it is attacked, it damages them deeply. Celebrities are humans and deserve the same respect you would give your neighbor or friend. Anonymously attacking them via the web is careless and cowardly. I hope the latest suicide can finally shake some sense in this ever increasingly cruel world wide web.

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both presidential candidates picked their VP with lots of consideration I think
Obama didn't have a lot of experience like McCain did, so he picked a veteran like Biden who everyone knew knew his stuff. McCain did not have the "change" aspect as Obama did and opted for a woman. However I think McCain forgot that their selection of VP heavily represents their choices as a president. Instead of going for someone knowledgeable that could help him in office, he wanted to win over Hillary Clinton's voters. Many of those voters are women. Women aren't stupid. If there is a woman lacking qualifications and a man with lots of experience, I would still opt for the man regardless of whatever "change" nonsense they are going on about. It's not about voting for changes and big news, it's about picking someone who is capable. McCain took the bad route I think.

On the other hand, props to Biden for a well prepared debate.

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Oh man, would I have rather seen a Clinton - Palin debate!

Biden could have eaten her alive, but he was pretty restrained. But did anyone else hear several deep sighs from him when Palin was speaking?

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"Biden could have eaten her alive, but he was pretty restrained."

If Biden did that, he would have effectively lost. What Kerry-Bush showed (Arnold-Davis too) was that actually joining the debate can only hurt you if you can't make your opponent visibly reel. Because if you can't knock your opponent completely down, then it looks like you're following the leader. Your opponent may be bruised, but in not taking him down, you "win" but you leave the battle having further established your opponent as alpha dog. So, key rule of Presidential/VP debate: don't debate, don't be specific, don't acknowledge that your candidate is really saying anything worth debating.

The Republicans do a masterful job at controlling the talking points and establishing the mindshare within any given media sphere. Palin did a good job deflecting Biden and selling her image of Annie Get Your Gun. She seemed mostly pleasant (which appeals to the male audience), and the frequent "Maverick this, Maverick that" trope with the folksy drawl was huge fish bait for a seasoned pro like Biden. Biden bit a few times on that, and I didn't think it really helped Biden's case.

HOWEVER, when Biden told the story about his family, he did a great job changing the exchange and connecting with the emotional content as a concerned father. That in turn subverts Palin's sell, and it enabled Biden to move the image back onto on his terms. Also his selling the story indirectly alluded to male resentment, which also connects with a large part of the conservative independent male audience. That was a good move.

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I realize that it was a strategic move for Biden to counterattack when needed, but not become so aggresive that he appears as the enemy. All the commentators pre-debate warned Biden to come out strong, but not sound overbearing and condescending to Palin.

All I was trying to point out was Biden COULD have gone harder since he's more knowledgeable, but he held himself back purposely.

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I watched the second half of the debate with couple of friends. (listened first half on npr while driving). We watched it on CNN. Basically, we all agreed with what everybody said here. Palin was expectedly better than expectation, but it was clear she was regurgitating memorized talking points. I was swept off the feet with Biden. Knew he's a good debater but that was just a well controlled, terrific performance last night. And he came across as really informed and less rhetorical. His points were sharp and quite concise and they come in a forceful escalade. I cant critique him for not attacking her enough, cause though his tone was very controlled, he was slamming her (or I should say McCain) left and right with facts. Though I doubt everything he said was unbiased and the absolute truth, it was brilliant!! I was moved when he got a bit teary eyed talking about his sons. It was a genuinely touching moment for me and I didnt expect that fr this platform.

Interestingly though, my guy friends didnt find her charming at all with her smiles and winks. One of them said she came across as a country-fied Stepford wife. But we r not the middle American population she is targeting.

And on CNN, they have that continuous graph of polling how the undecided voters felt about the debate in real time at the bottom of the screen, splitting them into males and females. It's intriguing to see at times when Biden was talking in Senator mode, throwing in an abundance of facts and proofs, he lost those polled, the guys in particular stopped listening or reacting, but they generally gave Palin a warmer reception even when she's just smiling and spurting out words with no real meat. And a guy even said he thought Biden was off topic most of the time and didn't answer the the questions when he was interviewed afterwards. From what I saw on that graph, women reacted more favorably to Biden, and guys to Palin in general. (Are we the more rational sex?! :) )

And after the debate, Fox was the only channel with a poll showing Palin won. All the other cable channels reported a Biden victory. I must say switching channels btn Fox and msnbc was very entertaining TV these days.

On a silly note, Biden and Len (the judge) on Dancing with the Stars have quite a resemblance.

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"but not become so aggresive that he appears as the enemy."

It's not so much that. It's all about soundbites. If Biden can come up with a great punchline (i.e. "you're no Kennedy"), then yes you go for the kill. Palin was pretty well rehearsed and was able to mantain continuity with her image and not seem rattled by the situation. It was the same thing with Bush and Kerry. Kerry won every single debate by a wide margin. However, the polls didn't reflect this because Bush was successful in getting more soundbites and not conceding political mindshare. That's the great thing about Bush as a political strategy. You don't so much conceded mistakes as you assume public responsibility for nothing. You just ignore your opponents and repeat the same message ad naseum.

Palin has been GREAT fish bait to draw the Democrats away from defeating McCain. The people who were going to vote for Obama anyway open fire on a person who's clearly in way over her head, and also reinforce their own innate condescensions that "only stupid people voted for Bush anyway." That belief sets up the Democrats for failure, because it creates both polling myopia and a false sense of belief in their coalition building (which is how Democrats win elections since they gave up the South to the Fundies.) The great thing about Obama was that he managed to mostly avoid this trap (even mostly successfully working with the race card) . . until Palin got nominated.

Biden did a good job appearing conciliatory to both Palin and McCain while firing away with the criticisms. Biden gives Obama the foreign policy credibility and experience that Obama will need in the next 4 years. Also, because Biden has run for the white house multiple times himself, he is too a well-worn hand in fighting Republican media mind share. And I've always thought Biden -- who often talks with Charlie Rose -- was a likable, straight shooter anyway. But it's still a weird space because he, by virtue of being a senior member of the senate, can only have at best a neutral effect. That is, until the debate. At the debate, he was able to connect with the viewers and steal some of the "person you can relate" image from Palin. That was surprising.

". From what I saw on that graph, women reacted more favorably to Biden, and guys to Palin in general. (Are we the more rational sex?! :) )

Yeah, that's the thing. Palin was nominated for the guy vote, not the female vote. Women voters are mostly horrified with Palin, but neutral women also would react to sexism labored out by the Democrat party. Hence, the Democrat party can't bite. You could send out Hillary Clinton to go after Palin, but that only preaches to the converted, and it ignores that Hillary was also controversial with the female independents anyway.

"It’s intriguing to see at times when Biden was talking in Senator mode, throwing in an abundance of facts and proofs, he lost those polled, the guys in particular stopped listening or reacting, but they generally gave Palin a warmer reception even when she’s just smiling and spurting out words with no real meat."

That's exactly why most senators and house reps struggle mightily with getting elected to the executive seat. They know all the details of policy better than governors and other officers would, and therefore it's always assumed that their knowledge will favor them on the debate. Except, the debate is on TV and actually discussing issues in detail does not help you at all. At. All. Your proponents think you're the greatest guy in the world for knowing so much. Your opponents think you're the most boring guy in the world for talking so much. Moreover, it also means that they have more stuff on you to use against you later on. The people in the middle have no clue what they think of you, because they don't really understand what you said. In President Politics, demonstrating lot of knowledge and actually seeming like an authority that people can trust have little to do with each other.

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If McCain/Palin gets elected to office, it will be a disaster of "nucular" proportions.

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"From what I saw on that graph, women reacted more favorably to Biden, and guys to Palin in general. (Are we the more rational sex?! :) )"

ahahhaa. Oh, for sureee. Half the guys I know that will be able to vote want to vote for McCain, just " 'cuz they'd do her." oh, mccain. how you've inspired political interest in young men everywhere.

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"HOWEVER, when Biden told the story about his family, he did a great job changing the exchange and connecting with the emotional content as a concerned father. That in turn subverts Palin’s sell, and it enabled Biden to move the image back onto on his terms. Also his selling the story indirectly alluded to male resentment, which also connects with a large part of the conservative independent male audience. That was a good move."--Bezella

What REALLY helped this point last night, was also Palin's coldness immediately after. She didn't comment on how he's put his family first through out his career, and has been an unbelievably good father (something the Republican party acknowledges openly). Palin changed the topic and went back to how "awesome" she is.

Everytime I've seen John McCain make a comment about being a POW while Barack Obama is around, Obama thanks him for his service. Palin could have, and should have, done something similar. It wouldn't have made her (a woman) look weak. It would have made her look human.

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My god....the BAILOUT PLAN passsssed. I was praying so hard not to resort to interventionist economics.

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belleza, great review! You're right, Biden had to be careful in his treatment of Palin, especially after Obama called that reporter "Sweetie" back in May, and I thought he did quite well. Although, like ndegeocello pointed out, I did hear a couple of sighs. At least the camera didn't catch him rolling his eyes like Gore did!

You mentioned the Kennedy line -- that was a great soundbite for Dukakis, but Bush Sr. won anyway. Historically, I don't think the VP debate/candidate has had that much influence on the outcome. This time it might. McCain is old and the thought of Palin in office is rather scary. On the other hand, Biden could really, really help Obama (like Chany helped GW?). I'm not sure people want that either. I actually found myself liking Biden in the debate better than Obama, too (I forget who mentioned that above),

Another reason Senators, especially long-term ones, have such a hard time becoming President is there's a record of how they've voted!

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Palin has really set back any progress that women have made in politics. I'm actually very embarassed. The bar was set so low that she really had nowhere to go but to "meet" or "beat" expectations and people consider that a win? If they held her to the same standards that Biden was held to, she would have failed miserably.

I can't believe that the media is treating her w/kid gloves just because she's a woman. I hear she's whining that Katie Couric did no ask her enough issues based questions?!? Regulation issues, financial bailouts, Supreme Court rulings are not issues that the public should know where you stand?

It boggles my mind to hear women say that she "represents" and "understands" us well. I'm a suburban mom living in "folksy" Texas, no less,but that woman does not in any way represent me. Every time she winked and used her "folksy" talk, I cringed. Btw, I have neighbors just like her. Scary, yeh? I guess that's why I might be considered anti-social on the block.

Frustratingly for me, Texas is true Red State and my vote will not count, but I will vote. But you all in toss up states need to go VOTE for Obama/Biden. The alternative is scary.

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the bailout plan passed? crappity crap crap crap. i was also hoping we wouldn't have to resort to that. deng.

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