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Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo: Episode 11

Now this is the kind of episode I’d been waiting for, and boy, does it deliver an emotional wallop. Everything seems to happen at once, leaving Su powerless against the much greater forces surrounding her. It’s not so easy for her suitors to swoop in and save the day this time, and the divide that causes may spell the end of one beloved relationship, while opening the door for another.

 
EPISODE 11 RECAP

So takes that one last, longing look at Su after ingesting the poison, and excuses himself before any of his symptoms can be revealed. Princess Yeonhwa jumps up as though to say something, but ends up merely smiling instead as she tells the king that she has a request on behalf of her brother, Wook.

As Su walks away, So stumbles in his attempt to follow her as the vision of her begins to blur. He reaches out his hand toward her, but it’s only when he coughs in a spray of blood that Su turns around and sees him. He falls, and Su immediately runs to his side to call for help.

He attempts to silence her so that she won’t be found with him, but he falls unconscious before he can tell her why. She just resumes her panicked cries for help.

Princess Yeonhwa claims that she also wants to make three toasts (as So did) before giving the king her requests. Queen Sinmyeongsunseong watches as Yeonhwa pours herself a cup from the crown prince’s tea. Even refreshed, is it still poisoned?

Her first request is for the king to let Wook remarry, prompting Wook to say that there is someone he has in mind. King Taejo permits the request without knowing who the girl is, and Yeonhwa brings the cup to her lips.

But instead of drinking, she stealthily pours the liquid down her sleeve. She acts as though she’s been poisoned, however, and dramatically swoons. Queen Sinmyeongsunseong scoffs at the act before announcing that it’s poison (as if she didn’t already know), while Yeonhwa weakly calls for them to help her half-brother, So.

Blood drips from the corner of Yeonhwa’s mouth as everyone around her panics. Baek-ah finds So and Su first, but the other princes aren’t far behind. Ninth prince Won immediately blames Su for serving the tea, though it’s Astronomer Choi who announces that she’s being arrested for attempted assassination of a prince.

Court Lady Oh watches as Su’s room is torn apart, though she recognizes that there’s a darker plan at work—Su wasn’t originally supposed to serve the tea, and the court lady who was has mysteriously gone missing.

Minister Park Young-gyu seems delighted when he finds a necklace (the one the crown prince gave her) among Su’s things, while one of the soldiers “finds” the vial of poison.

Queen Sinjeong frets as the royal doctor checks her daughter’s pulse, though he claims she’ll be fine. Only when the queen is gone does Yeonhwa rise from her bed, completely fine. She only pretended to drink the poison, she tells the doctor, and bit the inside of her lip to cause the bleeding.

This she announces freely to the doctor, while warning him to keep silent now that she’s freed herself from any suspicion. No one would believe that she willingly poisoned herself.

The antidote is spoon-fed to an unconscious So by another royal doctor as Astronomer Choi, Baek-ah, and Crown Prince Mu look on. Astronomer Choi notes that So just might make it because Grand General Park trained his body to resist poison, but neither of them can figure out why So would have drank three glasses. Surely he knew it was poison after the first.

Crown Prince Mu accurately guesses that the true target of the poison was him and not So, while Baek-ah and Astronomer Choi figure that he tried to leave before his symptoms could be known in order to protect the culprit. But who?

Wook finds said culprit curled up against the wall of a prison cell, and he takes in her bloodied hands when she grasps the wooden bars. He puts his hand over hers, but pulls away when her first question is to ask how So is doing.

Her concern for So seems to make Wook very unhappy, and it’s with a flat voice that he tells her that So will be fine. She needs to worry about herself now that she’s suspected of poisoning the tea, and while he believes in her innocence, there’s no proof.

He warns her that they might very well torture her to find out who was behind the poisoning, but he implores her to endure long enough for him to get her out. She puts on a brave face as she says that she won’t let them use her to frame someone else, so she’s prepared. (Hasn’t she ever seen a sageuk?)

At the next assembly, Minister Park posits that it was Crown Prince Mu who tried to poison So through Su. Mu vehemently defends himself, but Astronomer Choi stops him, lest he end up revealing his illness to the court.

Wook’s theory is that the poison was intended for the crown prince, but was accidentally given to So. Princess Yeonhwa’s poisoning proves as much, though it doesn’t alleviate any of the suspicion with regards to Su’s role in all of it.

King Taejo announces that Su will be hanged for her crime, but the crown prince isn’t willing to let another person die for him, even if it means keeping his illness under wraps. He asks that the king cast him aside instead, but Taejo refuses. Mu is his firstborn, and he wants to give him everything he can.

So attempts to leave his sickbed early to go to Su, who he knows must be alone and suffering. Wook updates him on the allegations against Su, and despite all of them knowing that it makes no sense, he can’t see a way to get her out of it. “I should have never let Hae Su get mixed up with you,” Wook adds, under his breath.

After sending Baek-ah away, So reveals to Wook that it was his mother who was behind the poisoning. At first, Wook accuses So of drinking the poison to protect his mother, but So claims that he did it to save Su and the crown prince.

So adds that he was trying to prevent anyone from finding out about it, but that all changed when Princess Yeonhwa drank the poison. He admits that he wasn’t able to say anything about it before it happened, but now he has to depend on Wook to expose Queen Sinmyeongsunseong’s machinations and save Su.

That night, So goes to the prison to see Su trembling on the floor of her cell, covered in blood from the day’s torture. She rises with great difficulty, yet her only happiness is in seeing that So isn’t dead. “You knew it was poisoned,” she says. Did he drink it in order to save her from suspicion?

So calls the theory nonsense, claiming that he’s not the kind of man to drink poison for a girl. Aw, you big softie. She sees through the lie and tearfully asks why he would do such a thing—did he think her feelings would change? But in her mind, she thinks, “Who am I that you would put your life on the line for me? If you do this, it makes it harder for me to turn away from you.”

He gives her a small smile, admonishing her for always causing him problems. There’s so much left unsaid between them as they manage to make light of the situation despite the severity of it all, as he tells her that she’ll be freed soon. She just sighs, “I don’t know what to do with you.” So replies in kind. That’s oddly sweet.

Meanwhile, Wook tracks down the court lady who first conspired with Princess Yeonhwa, now receiving another package from her. The princess is in disguise, so Wook uses his metal hairpin to threaten the court lady into revealing the truth—if she does, he’ll let her live.

He asks the cloaked figure to reveal himself, only to be taken aback when it’s his sister. The court lady uses the opportunity to make an escape, with Wook too shell-shocked to stop her.

The princess, ever the arrogant one, knows that Wook can’t reveal her crime without damning his entire family as traitors. When he demands to know why she did it, she fires back that he was about to throw away his chance to be king for that girl, and she had to stop him.

When he retorts that he has no desire to be king, she challenges him to search his innermost thoughts. Didn’t he feel wronged when So performed the rain ritual? She knows he wants to be king, and if he still denies it, he can throw both her and their mother away.

Wook suddenly throws the hairpin he’d been holding, and it lands straight in the scheming court lady’s neck. She knows as well as he does that he can’t just cast his own family aside. “From this point on, Yeonhwa, you are no longer my sweet sister. You are a debtor. You to me, and I to you.” He seems resigned to his fate as he says this, and Yeonhwa accepts his offer, though she claims she’ll repay that debt by giving him the throne.

Defeated, Wook says that she can now do with him as she wishes. He has no choice but to submit to her control in order to save his family, even if it means giving up on Su.

He still goes to the prison that night, clutching the bloody hairpin he removed from the court lady’s neck. He drops it outside and turns to leave after one tortured look.

Now fourteenth prince Jung feels like he has to take it upon himself to try and save Su if no one else will, but Wook only acknowledges the presence hiding in the room: Chae-ryung. She falls to her knees as she tearfully begs Wook to save Su. He remains silent, though her pleading makes him visibly uncomfortable.

So goes to the king to ask for Su’s life, even daring to ask if the king is so willing to sacrifice her for the crown prince’s sake. King Taejo doesn’t see the big deal in sacrificing a lowly life in order to save an important one, which So takes particular offense to. Is this what being king means?

Taejo clocks him for his impudence, and warns his son that he’ll kill him if he asks about Su again. The same will happen to anyone else who thinks to plead for her life.

Court Lady Oh visits the prison that night wearing a veil, and tears up at the sight of a bloodied and broken Su lying on the ground. Resolved, she returns to the palace to find Wook waiting for her. He has one request for her: “Stand up for Hae Su. You are the only one who can change the king’s mind.”

When she says that she can’t make such a request, Wook asks if she’ll just let Su die. “I know you feel like a mother to her,” he says, adding that he realized that was the reason Court Lady Oh never liked seeing Su with him. Court Lady Oh turns that back on him, asking why he can’t save Su—doesn’t he love her?

She accurately guesses that it’s his own household holding him back, and his own ambition for the throne. “The reason why men in the royal family become cowards is always the same,” she notes with disdain. “Someday, you will come to regret your cowardly actions today. This one time you turned your back on her will haunt you for the rest of your days.”

With this said, she assents to go to the king herself, since she does care for Su and knows that Wook can’t save her.

After serving the king’s tea, Court Lady Oh waits until she is called upon to speak in order to say: “It was I who tried to poison the crown prince.” Oh no. Oh no! She goes on to give adequate reasons, like the loss of her child (which previous episodes hinted at being Queen Sinmyeongsunseong’s doing), though King Taejo would rather pretend she said nothing.

She lays out the bloody clothes of an infant as she tells him that someone in the royal family sent her tea to drink while she was pregnant ten years ago. Seven days later, her baby died, his baby died, and she’s not about to let the same person who poisoned her get away with killing a girl who’s like a daughter to her.

King Taejo tells her that Su isn’t a replacement for her dead child, and that there’s no evidence against Queen Sinmyeongsunseong. “Will you look the other way this time as well?” Court Lady Oh asks him tearfully. “I will die soon,” she adds, putting a name to the illness that’s been plaguing her: cancer of the stomach.

She knows that King Taejo is acting to save the crown prince, but requests that he help her save Su, so that she won’t lose another child to the evil queen. His eyes wet with unshed tears, Taejo asks if this means she’s finally casting him aside, and a tear snakes down Court Lady Oh’s cheek in answer.

The next morning, So runs to the execution platform, where a bloody and bedraggled Su is being taken to the noose. Her eyes widen in fear as she wonders if this is the end for her, but she only begins to panic when she doesn’t see Wook.

As she looks around for him, it’s not Wook who arrives, but So. He fights his way through the guards, announcing to them that he’ll be taking her with him. He’s willing to spill blood their blood if he must.

But then, Astronomer Choi runs to the execution grounds with a royal command in his hand: There won’t be a hanging, as the real culprit has been discovered. Su promptly faints.

Court Lady Oh walks with dignity to the soldiers ready to take her away, taking one last look around the palace. Su witnesses her assenting to her own punishment and limps over to her, demanding to know what’s going on. “I put the poison in the crown prince’s tea,” the court lady replies.

Su knows she’s lying, but Court Lady Oh has to keep up the pretense in order to save her. So holds off the guards long enough for Su to drag Court Lady Oh into the secret tunnel beneath the baths, only to come up against the newly blocked exit.

Despair washes over Su as she takes this in, and she takes it upon herself to pull at the rocks blocking their exit. “You said we should go to your hometown,” she says, her voice distant. “Let’s go now.” Oof, this is hard to watch. Even Court Lady Oh sheds a tear as Su tries in vain to clear the way.

Court Lady Oh pulls her away, but Su cries—she knows that this is only a cover-up, and Oh will die in her place. She turns back to the exit, but Oh pulls the crying girl into an embrace. “It’s not your fault. I’m not doing this for you. I’m doing this for the king.”

She strokes the girl’s back as she says that she would die soon anyway, so there’s no need for Su to feel burdened. “I’m fine,” Court Lady Oh says through her tears. As she looks down at the scar on Su’s wrist, she mirrors what Su once said about having no regrets for protecting what she needed to protect.

Su sobs piteously as Court Lady Oh again takes her into her arms. She doesn’t say this aloud, but she repeats the advice she’s been giving to Su all this time, because she doesn’t want Su to end up like her.

We find Su in a fresh set of clothes as she limps her way to the king’s quarters. She kneels in front of the steps to make a formal protest for him to allow Court Lady Oh to live, despite her voice being too weak to carry far.

Wook tries to run to her aid only to be stopped by his mother, who refuses to let her son risk his life. Princess Yeonhwa reminds him that he turned his back on Su once, so why can’t he do it again? Wook sends his sister a look: “How much more indebted to me do you want to become?”

Queen Sinmyeongsunseong comes over to gloat and challenge Wook—if he doesn’t believe Court Lady Oh is the culprit, does he believe her to be guilty? His mother immediately prostrates herself at the evil queen’s feet, begging for her to leave her children alone.

Wook tries to pull his mother to her feet, but she brushes him off to continue her heartfelt plea. Queen Sinmyeongsunseong remains arrogant, admonishing Queen Sinjeong for raising her son poorly as said son remains powerless to defend his own mother.

Su’s pleas grow quieter as she grows weaker, even though she continues into the night. By now it’s just a whisper, and she has to struggle to keep from falling over. Baek-ah tries to tell her that her pleas are futile, and that despite everyone knowing that Court Lady Oh is innocent, no one would dare stand up to the king.

He reminds her that Court Lady Oh just barely managed to save her, and if she keeps being stubborn, Oh’s efforts will be for naught. “It is better than doing nothing,” Su replies, causing Baek-ah to give up on trying to stop her. But before he leaves, she asks where Wook is. Ouch.

The next morning, Queen Sinjeong asks the king to rescind the order for Court Lady Oh’s execution. He refuses, and when Astronomer Choi says that Su has been outside protesting for two days, King Taejo announces that if anyone takes her side, they’ll have to answer to him.

It begins to rain, and poor Jung has to be held back by his other brothers from going out to Su with an umbrella. Jung, finally having enough, leaves the safety of the eave to kneel in solidarity with Su. Baek-ah joins him, as does the crown prince (though he stands). Ninth prince Won refuses to have any part of it.

Wook finally approaches Su in the pouring rain, and this look of hope spreads across her features that’s just heartbreaking. But when he stops and begins to back away, realization seems to set in. As he turns away from her, Su can only ask, “Why?”

Just when it seems all hope is lost, a figure emerges next to her and spreads his cloak to cover her. It’s So, who says nothing as Su straightens just enough to remain under the meager protection.

Queen Sinmyeongsunseong takes a moment to taunt Court Lady Oh, who’s on her way to the gallows. She says that Oh dying first means she’s lost, but Oh says the queen has never once beaten her. The evil queen makes sure to have the last word, as she says that Oh is nothing but a lowly court lady who no one will remember after her death.

“If one person remembers me,” Court Lady Oh thinks to herself, “that is enough for me.” In the king’s courtyard, the princes and Su hear the gong signifying the execution. What they don’t see is the support drop out from under Court Lady Oh’s feet as she strangles on the end of the noose before going still.

The king suddenly loses his footing, which is likely all the emotion we’ll see from him regarding her death. In the courtyard, So tries to comfort Su as she screams for Court Lady Oh.

“If I had known someone would die because of me, I would not have been so greedy to live again. If only this was a dream… if only I could wake up without remembering any of this,” we hear Su say in voiceover as she faints in So’s arms.

 
COMMENTS

I knew that the show would have to work hard to drive a believable rift between Wook and Su, but I was honestly surprised at how well they managed to pull that off this episode. Everything seemed dialed to eleven today, and to great effect—this is definitely the best effort we’ve seen from this show, and it’d be hard to pinpoint just one reason why. It’s one of those situations where everything finally just seemed to work, enough to where those little inconsistencies ceased to matter, and we could just focus on the emotional impact of what we were seeing.

Wook’s turn to the dark side was really unfortunate, if only because it wouldn’t have happened were it not for Princess Yeonhwa’s meddling and manipulation. I thought she’d resolved to become more than just the sister of a king, but now it seems like she’s thrown her entire weight behind the idea of making Wook king. And at the cost she’s made him pay, she better have been truthful about everything she said—it was her own ambition for power that caused her to implicate Su in the first place, and while her words to Wook about doing it all for him didn’t ring untrue, it made her seem much more selfless than she actually was. The “I did what I did for you” could’ve made sense had she not conspired with Queen Sinmyeongsunseong in the first place, especially knowing that the evil queen has always had it out for her family.

At least Yeonhwa seemed to realize her mistake when she saw her own mother prostrate herself in front of the queen, but by then, it was too little, too late. It helps to know that Wook disdains his sister for her actions even if he had no choice but to fall into her trap—which is why I can’t hate him for it. Yeonhwa really did make it so that he had to choose between his own family or Su, and for someone as upright as Wook, it would have been unreasonable to expect that he could throw the lives of his mother and sister away, even for the woman he loves.

I actually felt like the show handled his transition much better than expected, because it would’ve been too easy for him to just go wholesale bad. But he knew enough to feel guilty for his inaction, and tried his best to still be of some help to Su, even if it meant helping her from the shadows. Him walking toward her only to literally turn his back on her toward the end was a little heavy-handed, admittedly, but it was the kind of closure Su needed for the question that had been undoubtedly plaguing her throughout the episode’s events: Where was the savior she was promised?

The fact that her savior came in the form of Court Lady Oh was even more unexpected, but fitting. And when that thread really got going, it was absolutely heartbreaking. Court Lady Oh had been one of the deeper characters presented to us, and her constant watchfulness over Su had already clued us into the depth of feeling she had for the girl. We knew that she looked at Su as a younger version of herself, but the parallels between taking her on as a daughter to replace the child she’d lost—to the evil queen’s machinations, no less—were solid enough for her sacrifice to ring as both believable and extremely, extremely sad.

Her sacrifice didn’t come off as a deus ex machina to save Su from the gallows, but as more of a natural progression of their relationship, made easier to bear by Court Lady Oh’s terminal illness. I doubt that she needed Wook to ask her for her to have done what she did, and even if it was a teensy bit hard to buy that Su and her could just run off together, the moment they had in the cave was worth the suspension of disbelief required to get them there. Giving them that last chance to say their goodbyes was hard to watch, but along with making Court Lady Oh into one of the best characters ever, it went a long way toward endearing Su as a character. She still doesn’t have any agency, but at least she’s still willing to try despite being powerless.

While I did think it was a bit of a letdown to miss out on Su’s inner thoughts during her torture and even directly afterward, I guess we could say that she was counting on Wook to rescue her until the end, which is why she didn’t show fear until she realized that he wasn’t coming to save the day. Still, it was jarring to see how well she handled being cruelly tortured and imprisoned, but that’s neither here nor there anymore.

Despite whatever Wook was trying to do in the background, it was really So who emerged as Su’s defender, and that almost reckless abandon for his own status and future was what sold his love for Su to me. I’d been on the fence about their relationship before, which wasn’t helped by So’s emotional immaturity, but seeing him throw caution to the wind to save Su—or at least die trying—was powerful. It’s enough to make me think that even if Court Lady Oh hadn’t stepped in, So’s efforts might’ve just been enough to save Su. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking. I can’t tell if Su is just that lucky, or just that unlucky anymore.

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@swannie
well, we have different opinion then. my English is so limited. but I will try to explain my thought.

I love Lee jun ki. I watch this show for him. and actually me too still felt traumatic when remember that mesh fashion king is. i did not watch both love affair and jang ok jung. in fact, yoo ah in seem like to pick ironic drama, which just hell for us. but he picked dramas we hate, didn't mean he is bad actor.

Lee jun ki for me, the same kind actor like Kim so hyun or Lee min hoo. they are good, but too much fan services. with that cool expression, melted eye or swooning smile, every where, every time. not bad to watch at all. that exactly what we want from dramas, do we? how we can't love that?

but, when it come about acting quality, there's different approach. yoo ah in still had flaws, of course. but he is really great actor with rare talent. he understand his characters he'd play as a whole, and felt the emotion with his heart. his expression come from what he felt, not by faking.

when sungkyungkwan scandal over, he said something like, "I know this will be sucseed. it would sucsses more if I played klise way."
let's think again about his cahatacter Mon jae sik. he'd portray mjs excellent. but how if we get mjs with more cool ekspresion even when he'd in the middle of serious fight? swoooon for sure. that is fan services. for yoo ah in he'd preferred to act right: serious, beware and may be little bit scared. just like normal people when get trouble. he didn't scared look not cool or pretty in his dramas/movie. and he just deep into his character. getting award both 2015 and 2016 for his Lee bang won role is awesome. even few years ago when he came to running man, they call him as a character actor. for young actor like him just wow.

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While I respect your opinion but I totally disagree. This is my first Lee Joon Gi drama, but I am amazed at his performance even from the first episode. Whilst many viewers were distracted with some unnecessary issues about this drama, I remained enchanted by Wang So.

Going back to LJG. I went to watch for his earlier work. LJG The King and the Clown in 2006 & then the Time Between Wolf & Dog in the following year and even Iljimae. And hands down to this Wang So who is just Phenomenal.

Comparing all these characters, you would not even think they were portrayed by one actor much less comparing them to the real LJG. Somewhat each character was unique and distinct. For me that is brilliance.

I am not even half way going through his resume yet I already in awe.

While Yoo Ah In, he still has more years to go. Whilst he was good in The Throne but the kind of performance is somewhat in the same genre as Secret Affair & Fashion King. It is good but it is not well-defined & with how he manifest the emotion of these characters is somewhat similar. But he is a good Actor. He is the one in the same level of Kim Soo Hyun & Song Joong Ki. They are good but need more years to ripe. I can actually see the young Lee Joon Gi in Song Jong Ki and also the young So Ji Sub in Yoo Ahn In. Though I am rooting more for the senior actors because I find them more experimental and dedicated to improving their crafts which I believe defines & determines their longevity in the industry.

*Sorry Off-topic. I just want to say Lee Joon Gi is awesome. I am really expecting him to win awards for the Character WAng So.

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I have to agree with you on LJG. He should not compared to Kim So Hyun or Lee Min hoo. Kim So Hyun delivers crying scenes very well,,, I get distracted by PS over Lee Min Hoo and I do not see anything particularity good in his acting. Sorry to be so blunt about them.

Even after years of watching films all over the world, I am still impressed with LJG's acting chop. The first couple of episodes are filled with flaws ie wrong pick of Ost etc but LJG's acting pulled me in and I am so glad I continued to watch the drama.

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I am actually impressed by how Lee Joon Gi has able to define the every character he played down to the smallest detail. That is something that the other actors have yet to offer.

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I am very fascinated with this character Wang So. Admit it, he does not have as much screen time as the usual lead character of a drama. But Lee Joon Gi made every moment the character appears on screen, Wang So shines.

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well its hard for me to said what I want to. my poor English.. sigh

I just said from my experience as a stage performer. my be we had different sight cz we saw from different place to start.

let's just agreeing in two thing: that we had different opinion. and another thing: that we love Lee jun GI! ;)

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and yes, Lee jun GI way better than Lee min ho (I put his name just BC I afraid not see him right, actually I never like him from that meh drama named bof)

other names you mentioned are my fav to. but for me yoo ah in still my best. heee

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now is middle at night here in my place. but I can't sleep thinking about our discussion.

my first post which mean as replay for someone in page 3 was not about comparing yai and ljg. but ranting about a term that so odd on my ears: micro expression. its meh because many commentator mention it in many dramas for many actor like it's the highest level of acting.

the sentence I was quote,"he is in the same league with yoo ah in" (or some thing like that) I read on comment box from another drama and for another actor who has good talent but still very young, and need more experience. (not sentence for comparing lee jun gi to yoo ah in). she/he wrote it just because that thing call micro expression, get me mad.

all I want to said was, please stop using that term like it is the highest place in acting. micro thing make your project perfect, but you fail if only good at micro thing!

I am not a drama crazy, I watch few dramas only. for Lee jun GI, my first drama was arang and the magistrate. my first impression was,"wow, he is realy a good actor. why I never seen him before? where was he all the time and what dramas he played?"
but its strange that i still want him to pull out just a bit more in order to make me surrendered with all my heart. I didn't know which string he need to pull, just slightly more, please...

I thinking about it over and over again. and ended with conclusion may be because he did that 'fan services' I mention before. yes, he is better than Kim so hyun or else... but I need him to all out into the characters he is playing, without any fan services.

for yoo ah in, I really love him. his last project, 6fd, I adore him with all my heart. it was 50ep length and he did deliver from 16y innocent boy changing beautifully into ruthless king taejong. never as satisfied.

but yeah, love them both

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I get that you really like Yoo Ah In, I adore him too and do agree that he is a talented actor.

But I don't get what you mean by LJG over doing "fan service"? I always really respected LJG because he was always really professional and willing to go to all lengths for his characters. The mere fact that he was so willing to wear a mask for half the drama is in itself a feat, because many actors would've seen it as a disadvantage or disservice for themselves. Additionally he has chosen some really 'unique' roles over the past few years (much to his fans' dismay) to break out of his initial flower boy image, which he succeeded.

I don't mean to be rude, I respect that we all have our opinions, but I really respect LJG as an actor, his dedication is unrivalled, so I cannot comprehend him throwing away a performance for what you claim "fan service".

Anyway, I think it's unfair that you're comparing Yoo Ah In's performance in 6FD to LJG's in Arang. One's a 50 episode epic and the other is a 20 episode fantasy/rom-com/fusion saeguk.

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Acting in such details or micro whatever as others call it, is a skill. That's definitely high level style of performance. The other actors are stuck in one dimentional melodramatic approach which you can find the same facial expressions and the same way of execution on most of their dramas.

However, Lee Joon Gi is different. I have watched him as Wang So in Moon Lovers, Gong Shil in The King and the Clown, as Iljimae & Lee Soo Hyun In Time between Wolf & Dog. Those characters are really distinct and even the execution of every character is unique from one another. I can only say something his performance only in these dramas and movie I mentioned as I have yet to watch his other projects.

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Lee joon gi is not that old.he is just 2 or 3 years age diff with joongki. It is just that junki got famous so fast that everyone thought he is old alrdy. Beside,could be because of joongki babyface.

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Ah, to me, they're all babies. LJK is what, 35? (I'm old enough to be his Mama! And not in a creepy child-bride way, either.)

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I always feel sorry for LJK. He is amazing actor but people not recognise his talent. I'm happy that this drama shows how great he is. To me, he is good as same as Lee Min Hoo.

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Maybe you don't know him much. He is miles better than any actors mentioned.

But I don't think you can even compare him with those actors mentioned. He has achieved the Hallyu Status probably more than 5 years ahead of those other actors.

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Not only, I forgot to mention, Hollywood presence.

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I don't think that years experience and international presence are proof of quality. at least not for all. even I like Lee jun GI more than Jacky chan or Andy lau. ha!

Lee min ho? hate him!

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Lee Min Hoo does not posses a great acting skill. His fans seem to be confused with his good look and better than average acting skill. As he gets older, his feature will be a bit unbalanced(that often happens with PS faces unless they do more PS to fix) then they would clearly see how his acting skill is without the flower boy look.

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I like Lee Min Ho, but I would be blind (and stupid) to think him a great actor. He's fine and thank to his good looks and good choices of manly romantic roles, he has become extremely popular outside South Korea.

In contrast, Lee Joon Gi is light years ahead of Min Ho (and many other popular actors) in terms of acting skills and talent. He IS a superb actor and critically acclaimed. His popularity did go down after military service (something that happens to almost EVERY celebrity in Korea, by exception of Song Joon Gi). However, I am glad that Scarlet Heart has brought Joon Gi under the international spotlight once again. He already had a hallyu status, though his pick was back in the Iljimae times, but now he also has a critically acclaimed actor status with an entire career to prove it, along with many awards. :)

<3

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His show may not be high-rated now but LJG is LJG since 2005. And that's pre-social media. I think i read somewhere that no one came close to his popularity up until now.

Maybe he's not as popular as before bust he's been there.

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Exactly!

I don't mind comparing him to So Ji Sub and alike but to those young guns... no way! They are not even near... not yet... Those comparison was just too disrespectful.

Lee Joon Gi has continued to evolve and he has guts and is not afraid to experiment to improve in improve his craft. You can see by his choice of projects. He is quite daring in a great way, while the others only made safe choices.

He is Lee Joon Gi. As Endo has mentioned, he has been LJG since 2005.

*p.s. I saw the advert of his new movie. Its really quite different from the projects he has done. I think the chinese production is really capitalising from his popularity right now.

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Well. I liked him since My Girl in 2005 and I like the fact that he didn't depend on his face while he is acting. I will compared him to So Ji Sub as he is much much better ti me at least :)

@ just me : LoL. I will fall to Lee Min hoo someday my grilfriend :))

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@Hyades
I mean, I hate him!
you lol at my poor English made me fill sad. I need to have some English class, for that. but there's many thing I need to do with my time and money..

so please, just bear it... #cringe

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I hate Lee min hoo not because he himself but the over praise by his fan just annoying.

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AMEN!

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Acting is not about micro expressions - acting is about selling a character..
If an actor is able to make you understand nuances of a character, give him depth as a real person, where he can convey what is his character doing and why.. .. as long as he is able to sell the moment his character is in and what he is supposed to be feeling along with what the story would want viewers to believe.. That is acting!

LJK is phenomenal, SJB- have seen him only in venus and masters sun.. was alright..ofc can act..but i haven't seen a challenging role from him.. ofc i haven't seen much of his work..so i think people here are right abt him being great..YAI is again a great actor.. SJK has surprised me the most.. SS flirty character to the innocence in Werewolf boy and i thought he was really 16, to DOTs.. someone with his face.it is so difficult to sell Yoo shi jin 's character..

LMH again, have not seen him play any challenging role.. he is charismatic..and can defintiely act but hasn't done any complex role..so yet to see if he can carry gravitas of being a complex characcter. He is more of a superstar than a super actor. KSH - seems capable of the one series i have seen him in MLFAS

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So Ji sub is my ultimate "bias" and a terrible actor. He does two things, stare and cry. He's beautiful to look at, his face and body proportions are damned near perfect but he's a one note actor. Lee Jun ki runs circles around him.

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I would not agree on the terrible actor comment about So Ji sub but I agree on the stare and cry part which he is very good at, & the young gun(s)mentioned pretty much do the same thing.

But Lee Joon Gi, after watching few of his works, he is Lee Joon Gi. He is the kind of actor who is not stuck to doing the same thing. He makes sure that each character is unique and the character really comes alive.

I thought some actors to be good until I discovered Lee Joon Gi. He keeps pushing his boundaries as an actor and I really find that very inspiring.

I just notice one thing, I found him very beautiful and maybe (don't hate for saying this), more beautiful than the leading ladies.

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About Lee Min Ho's Faith drama, I've read that Lee Joon Gi was supposed to play the lead character but was forced to withdraw in the project due to his military enlistment. LJG was supposedly perfect for that role and Faith would have been better if he was in it.

On the same period for me the same reason, he was also made to withdraw from a movie supposedly with Kim Tae Hee. He was supposed to play as a jockey. I think with the current LJG's body frame he would be perfect to play a character as a jockey.

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LJK has managed to get these different kind of roles where he could show variety.. ( but then scholar, gunman etc.. are pretty much same genre)

So other actors are limited by the opportunities they get. Maybe, if similar opportunity comes through, who knows if they may actually manage to deliver (specially YAI)

However, LJK is amazing. Ad I agree he is 'beautiful'. Especially all his old pics .. with those flicks and long hair.. very very very pretty... The man has the sexiest voice of all kdrama actors that I can think of!!

I am just amazed, how his lovelife is so quiet.. :) good for rain that he didn't get to do that drama.. otherwise.. ho knows if LJK-KTH would have happened :P

Men who are good at their craft are usually smart and intelligent...add this swoony voice and b'ful face.. and non spoilt celeb persona (where drinking and spending money is everything) .. bingo!

Does anyone believe in 'Secret'. Have practiced it!! :P .. can you visualize LJK to be your bf.. and then post the result... lets put the theory to test

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When comparing LJG to other K-actors I think he is great. Maybe it's because I do not watch Kdramas as much as most commentors on this site do, but I can't help comparing him to non-Korean actors and it's than that I realise he's just average on the global scale. It is indeed about selling the character and there are moments where I do not buy it, where I can just see that it's the script requiring them to do certain thinhs rather than the character itself. Unless I'm watching some B-actors I never have this with European actors (with Hollywood I do get this sometimes, since they tend to cast the most populair actors (It-actors), which at times are not that great either).

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Things*

Forgot to add. Receiving an award (in Korea) doesn't mean a lot when it comes to recognizing an actors skills. Most of the time those awards go to the most populair ones (that got high ratings, etc.), so I wouldn't count on LJG receiving one this time around (unless the Chinese buzz will be taken into account, which I doubt).

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Moon lover is my first drama of LJG and trust me I became fan of his because of the way he plays Wang so character. I don't usually follow any actor so rigorously as I am following LJG nowadays. There is something captivating about the way he acts. As u guys said its about the way an actor sells his character. LJG does it perfectly. For me its more captivating is because even though he has such a pretty face(or flower boy) yet he is able to sell me ruthlessness as well as vulnerability in Wang so at the same time. Usually I have hard time imagining cute guys going baddass, but LJG does it really nice. So to me he is best.
PS: I am a fan of song jun ki and Lee min ho(because he brought me to kdrama world, though I agree with the part not being an outstanding actor)

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He had won many awards during his earlier career a.k.a on a very young age. And he stills won award for his acting in prestigious award ceremony these past years. He might look underrated but actually he is recognized as a great actor in korea.

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I think you are wrong Lee junki is one of the recognised actors in Korea since " The clown and the king"

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Watch King and The Clown. Gong Gil is still my favourite LJG character to date, and Wang So comes close. He was so captivating as Gong Gil, and it boggles my mind that it was his debut work!

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Gong Shil was a masterpiece. I wonder how much contribution LJG gave for the creation of that character, other than the execution, considering it was his first leading role. He was just brilliant. I saw that movie after I finished watching the 1st episode of Moon Lovers. As Gong Shil, there was nothing and even single drop of LJG. He was really Gong Shil just like being Wang So. He also shined as Lee Soo Hyun in Time between Wolf and Dog. I marathoned that drama. It was so addictive.

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He was recognized internationally for that portrayal. The film got some recognition at Cannes and other international festivals. He's just tearing up this role of Wang So. You can't keep your eyes off of him. People have complained about the use of close ups but I thank heaven for them every week! lol It has not ruined my evenings looking at close ups of LJK acting, or Kang Ha neul for that matter. They have been carrying this drama and doing it with a hella lot of charisma.

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whoaa.. what a long discussion. Sorry, i Can't replay one by one as my phone keep posted my replay at wrong place just frustrated me.

So, I will write one post for all

1. About Lee Jun GI
I'd melted every time watch him. But not understand yet where is his charm come from. Is it because his beautifulness, his act (wonderful, but I felt like need a tiny bit more from him) or there is another reason, still a mystery for me

Okey, I will give him a try. I will watch his other dramas, when I have time for it. I hope I will get an answer.

2. About Yoo Ah In.
@swannie
he got both blue dragon and Baeksang Arts Awards this year. To said he is not-ripe-yet actor such an insult for all judges (who had the real capabilities and right to made an evaluation) and the institutions he got award from.

or may be let's just simply say, you has different sense with them.

3. About the term "micro expression"
Ez was give you good explanation above. Act is not about micro expression. well, just like the term. its minor, not major thing. if you still can't get it, please take an act class. your teacher will help you understand how complex act is. not just simply about micro expression or what ever.

4. For fans of another actors who their name mention above, it's not my intention to hurt you. but some times your biased and over praised for them, hurt another people too. so, let's just shake our hands, and forget all of this fuss.

5. For those who offended by my word, I honestly ask for apologise. i'm not mean it.

6. My English awful, limited vocabulary and disaster grammar. I know. truly sorry you had to annoyed with all of that.

love LJG, YAI, and you all... \^0^/

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@just me
It wasn't my intention to participate in this discussion, since I think is somewhat pointless because on some level, this kind of judgment is all about perception and personal preferences.

EZ wrote "acting is about selling a character" and I believe that.

I don't know anything about acting, but as someone that's seen many dramas (from many countries and in other languages) I can confidently say that one of the few k-actors that can convincingly sell me a character is LJK, "micro expressions" or not.

I like YAI as well, and I've watched all of his dramas in the last three years, but honestly speaking he is not there yet. And I do believe there is a certain gap of maturity between LJK and YAI (Baeksang award or not).

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I rarely comment on dramabeans, but I'm gonna stop you right there. Lee Joon Gi is leaps and bounds ahead of Kim Soo Hyun, and light years ahead of Lee Min Ho. Don't get me wrong, they are both good actors and deserve the public's love but they are so in different categories. I know the man is bloody beautiful and might to some look like he's barely in his late twenties, but for crying out loud the man is already in his mid-thirties. To put it into better context, he has already enlisted and served his compulsory military service years ago, while the names you have mentioned have either not enlisted or just. You all do realise that he's part of Hyun Bin, Kim Rae Won, Jo In Sung, So Ji Sub, Ji Sung - that generation of lead actors right?

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Okay. So a quick google search has shown that he's born in the same year as Hyun Bin and he's only a year younger than Kim Rae Won and Jo In Sung?! *drops jaw*

Kim Rae Won and Park Shin Hye's age gap in Doctors was so glaring to me (I know it was intended but still). AND IU is like years younger than PSH! How big is their age gap? I barely noticed...

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they are 11 years apart. you can't tell right? haha.

i sometimes forgot and i was like LJG is too young for me but then i realize oh wait i'm just 10 months older. hahaha!

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He is only 3 years older than me. We are meant to be XD
LOL

Anyways, Im in my 30's too, same as Joon Gi and yourself, so I am part of the fan generation that discovered Joon Gi in his early years (I fell for him in My Girl back in 2005) and I am also so surprised that people compare him to actors of a totally different generation (Lee Min Ho, Kim Soo Hyun). You simply cannot compare them XD, Lee Joon Gi is way superior as an actor as the young ones, and he has an entire career to prove it, along with many excellence awards and recognitions.

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I meant "JG is way superior as an actor in contrast to the young ones"

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I don't find JoIn Sung a good actor.. good looking yes, but acting.. not at all..

Of what i have seen, i had say Ji Sung and JK are most versatile..

KRW- again not seen any challenging work from him, SJB- alright actor, HB- slightly better maybe... his comic timing was good in SG and he plays a strong man with as much ease.. so he is good.. but again not mesmerized with his acting as I am with JS and LJK. JS brings his own charisma despite being not so good looking. And LJK is LJK :)

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@just me

"Lee jun ki for me, the same kind actor like Kim so hyun or Lee min hoo. they are good, but too much fan services. with that cool expression, melted eye or swooning smile, every where, every time. not bad to watch at all. that exactly what we want from dramas, do we? how we can’t love that?"

Even though I respect your opinion, I have to say that I don't agree with it. You must have not watched LJG's dramas/movies if you think that he is an actor with "too much fan services. with that cool expression, melted eye or swooning smile, every where, every time".

I suggest that you watch King and the Clown, Hero, Two Weeks etc. You won't find any "cool expression, melted eye or swooning smile" in there.

And even though you are a fan of YAI, please don't drag other actors like KSH & LMH. Kindly respect them too.

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At the risk of public flaying and dismemberment, I'm going to agree with you partly. I don't remember Yoo Ah In at all so not that part. But I'm not as impressed as most people with LJK's acting in this drama, which means that I really like him but I'm not bowled over. I think what you mean by "fan service" is what I would call "posing". I am very aware of the poses LJK strikes in this drama, and that he is acting, whereas I was not in Arang and the Magistrate. IU is the same though I love her in the role. I wondered if it was the effect of the unnatural close ups we're getting in this drama; however, I do forget about the actor and only see the character with some of them like Wook, Lady Oh, King Taejo, Crown Prince Mu. So some of the actors are pulling off the close-up shots better for me than others. LJK is nailing micro-expressions, but they seem measured to me, like he has studied to look down and lift the corner of his lip to just that nth degree. Any time I start seeing the actor rather than the character, it takes me out of the emotion and motivation behind the scene.

Well, I don't usually comment on Korean actors - half the acting is in the voice and language and I have to read subs - but I didn't want you to think you're all alone in your opinion.

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Now that you mention Arang I remember reading an interview where he said he wanted to be more dramatic or something like that but the director held him back, so that's probably the reason. I remember I was turned off by the over-acting in Two Weeks at first, still love looking at him though.

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In general I would say LJG is a phenomenal, exceptional actor. He brings a level of sophistication, nuance, and empathy to his characters most other actors younger than him do not. He chooses complex, diverse and interesting characters to play, not just the “hot male lead.” He isn’t always reliant on his beauty or one-trick-pony intense “I want her” stare. He works very hard to be a true artist, not just a Hallyu star. I can admire and respect that. He cares about his craft. Like Daniel Day-Lewis, LJG disappears into his characters - that's the true mark of a good actor. In this I agree with @Swannie @atz @EZ @Hyades

But, I’m not uncritical of his performance. He has obviously improved as he has gotten older. He was a bit too flamboyant in Iljimae. Yet, perhaps in the same vein as @Barbrey, I think he disappears into his characters the best when his beauty is NOT a central part or element within his character’s identity.

Two Weeks, Time Between Wolf and Dog, Iljimae, Arang and the Magistrate - I tend to think he does better in. The notable exception is The King and the Clown where Gong Gil’s beauty is central to his character, but LJK nailed it.

With Scholar Walks the Night and Scarlet Heart Ryeo, his looks (or in ML:SHR, lack thereof) are still a central part of his character, and I see LJK’s own self-consciousness picked up by the camera: he moves out of character every once in a while.

Nonetheless, I think The King and the Clown and Scarlet Heart Ryeo are my favorites in terms of his acting. My basis for this is because both characters have a level of complexity, depth and gravitas that suit LJG extremely well. He tends to play dramatic roles better than frivolous ones. Also, their storylines tend to play well to his talent for pathos.

I may part ways slightly with you, @Barbrey, regarding ML:SHR, because with as little screen time as his character has had, and with the number of emotions and thoughts that must flit through his face as his character acts and reacts to situations, I find he is so on point, clear, emotive, and skilled, I get wrapped up in the message rather than the messenger. But, I fully admit I’m willing to get lost in his eyes. You may be much more clear-eyed at picking up on the posing and measured calculations than I. :)

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@PineappleGongzhu
I completely agree with you.

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@PineappleGongzhu
+1

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Beautifully articulated, girl :)
and I totally agree with you <3

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Ha, well actually I might be more clear eyed having worked behind scenes with actors for years. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, cause you start picking everything apart.

Thanks for no flaying! My arms and legs are intact!

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Completely agree with you @PineappleGongzhu on LJK's acting!

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I don't know who yoo ah in is (I am not hard korean drama fan) but I am a bit agree with you regarding LJG acting in here. but i find it mostly because the script.

Compare to Wook character that I feel much more relate able with real life person (with all his inner moral conflict) , Wang So characters is too dramatized (attacked by his own mother by unclear reason, threw away by his foster family, survived the wolf attack, can stand to poison, i mean, well...). So he needs to be this super hero character, not to mention he needs to save the heroine all the time. I think if one is given character like this, it is hard to act like, well, real human being (or what you called giving a "fan service") because there's no way you can relate yourself to this 'ideal' character.

But again, I don't see his works that much to assume his overall acting. this is just my opinion solely in this drama.

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Oppa vs Oppa will never end well. Can we get back to the drama?

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Well but Junah has a point that might describe where some of the dissonance is for some of us. It might have less to do with the actors as with the script. Wang So really is a more dramatic but stock hero role so far. This goes back to me some episodes ago saying I want to know more about the real him outside the traumatic childhood and derring do. I'm hoping that now he's more accepted we get to see how he operates outside those parameters and I'm expecting we will as he becomes more the focus ov Su's love. That's because this drama is not So's or Wooks's but primarly Su's hero's journey. My favorite moments between Su and So are not the big ones, they're the quiet ones chatting on the mountain or the steps. We've had a few more with Wook-Su so far because that's where Su's focus has been - I am eagerly anticipating the transition to So (ha, would they for gods sakes get ON with it) and seeing those relationship dynamics play out again. This is for me where LJK can really shine too, and has already, in those one on one conversations where he's not forcing her to love him or dramatically sacrificing himself for her. The scene at the prison bars is a case in point. How are these two going to interact when theyre in love, how is he going to act as a contender for the throne, or as a king? Can't wait.

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can the following eps be of the same standard as ep 11? please please i beg you ?!!!

i hope the writer did not fuck up for the rest of the eps !! because clearly... there's so MUCH SO MUCH POTENTIAL AFTER WATCHING EP 11.

editing team pls edit out all the nasty rap music before i can take a lighter and burn all of you down.

kim kyu tae is amazing for all these sad and heart wrenching scenes. \^0^/

LJK IS AMAZINGGGGGGGGGGG. cant imagine anyone else taking the character of wang so because HE'S FLAWLESS AT IT <3

not sure with 9 eps left how are they gonna slot so much things in. yeon hwa is bound to marry wang so, crown prince will go on the throne, then yo then wang so. but maybe the writer changed this, and also the other side love lines like baek ah/woo here, etc.

hopefully the next 9eps will blow us all !! *fingers crossed*

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I love the way Wang So cradled Hae Su when she was breaking down. You can sense how he wants to give her strength and comfort, how much he feels her pain too, very endearing. Like he has been meaning to do that since the day he visited her in prison.

Be as a friend or as a lover, he has always been there for her. Even willing to run away with her and risk his life. If those will not make Hae Su grow to love him, I don't know what will.

He deserves to be loved back. Please, Hae Su, please do. If not then I will take him from you!!!

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I understand Wook's situation, I felt bad for him though... he was too close to making his plans to be with Hae Soo but that witch Princess Yeon Hwa ruined everything for his brother.

I was literally shouting and pointing at her in front of my laptop HAHAHA! I had the second lead syndrome but when Wook backed away from Soo i was effing CRYING PEOPLE!!! I was like "WHY!!!?? WOOK!?!? WHY YOU LET MY BABY IU WAIT IN THE RAIN YOWW!!" T^T

And people, I want to give recognition to BAEK AH AND JUNG!!this twin look alike bros are the BEST!!! They really care for Hae soo.

P.S. I was shocked about PRINCE WON (9th prince) about his dirty actions in this ep and prev ep!! I thought he cared a little about Soo since I've seen him help Soo when she was escaping the Hae household (ep 6) T^T

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Nah, 9th prince never cared about Soo. He always followed along (or pretended to follow along) with what the other princes were doing, especially the more powerful princes like 3rd or 8th, so that he wouldn't look out of place. You can see his "mean" character in the "unmasking" of 4th prince scene by his expression.

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I agree but I also feel with Kang Maru that the shift into pure villainy seems kind of abrupt. I would have expected him to follow someone like Yo or Wook, as his character was established as a follower for sure. I've invented my own reason - he's acting for Yo in Yo's absence, under orders from Yo to do what Queen Yoo says.

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He was shown as a follower, mainly Yo's. He seems like a person whose loyalty rests with the powerful ones. And he doesn't seem hesitant to jump ships either if things go wrong. I also think he is acting for Yo.

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Don't tell me you got that name from Innocent Man.. If it is nice to meet you.. Fan of that character here..

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I loved Innocent Man too, with all its whackado characters.

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I do think Wook wants the throne more than he wants to be with Soo. He kept denying he wanted the throne until his sister said she saw through him during the rain ritual. The conversation ended with Wook saying they are now indebted to each other and it seems like he is allowing his sister to do anything she wants to get him to the throne.

In previous episode (either ep 8 or 9), there was a conversation between Wook and his sister whereby he said he is wondering where his seat will be.. If he didn't have such desire, why would he wonder that?

The need to protect his family can be an 'excuse' for him to have such desire. You may say he really wants to protect his family, especially after his mother was kneeling in front of the evil queen but i don't think his reason to give up saving Soo is purely for this. His desire for the throne also contributes for this choice. So, for me, he is still a coward and he is selfish. His integrity is questionable since the time he killed the court lady for the 'sake' of his sister and still allowed his sister to do ANYTHING she wants. I would not say his sister is the one who is fully manipulative here. Wook has also allowed himself to be manipulated because of his own greed and jealousy.

On the other hand, So does have an evil mother and since the beginning, he has also never exposed her. However, he has never agreed with her. He could have just killed the Crown Prince for his mother when his mother requested him to do so and made 3rd prince the next Crown Prince. If he had done so, his life could have been easier because his mother and 3rd prince would have protected him a little bit more since he would be 'useful' to them. He tried to protect both Soo and Crown Prince instead by drinking the poisoned tea.

Instead of saying Wook has more to lose than So, i think it is better to say So just does what he thinks is right, especially when it comes to Soo, someone who matters so much to him. So is being seen as someone scary but his heart is not rotten. As for Wook, he is being seen as a nice and gentle prince but deep down, he is actually not that nice afterall... =X

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This episode is totally DAEBAK!!!

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There are somethings I can't stop looking at... thought i can get some inputs here... the first time she helped with his make up and the scene at the beach where he said pointed he already considered her as his.. why didn't he jump in to help her when she was supposed to marry the king? everybody else were panicking but he let it go until there was actual plans made by wook. also in the horse ride he said he does not like her ..he just does not want to see her life being controlled by others. I still can't forget the fact he was ok for her to get killed the very first time... it is kind of scary to wonder what he would be thinking all the time...

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If I'm not mistaken, the make-up scene and beach scene was already after the almost marriage to the King. During that time he was somewhat friendly to Su after she talked to him while he was destroying the stones and thereafter but he wasnt in love with her yet, or at least he wasnt aware he was in the process of falling for her.

The realization probably came to him when she slashed her wrist which got him afraid of losing her. Confirmation came when she saw her singing. Then him affirming if he can trust her, probably with his feelings, during the make up scene.

Also, I never believed So was okay with her being killed by the masked man. He was just bluffing. He looked concerned when her neck got wounded. He didnt even let her fall off the creek in Ep1. He was not a gentleman but neither was he cold blooded.

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Also, he was not ok with her marrying the king. In one of the added scenes he goes to Ji Mong to find a way for not to marry his father. If I remember correctly he threatened Ji Mong's life. When they made the distraction to get her away, So didn't let her off the horse until she said it was ok. He didn't surrender her until she told him it was her decision to go back.

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just let me clarify a bit :D
When Su was supposed to marry the king, So hasn't realized that he falls for Su. So realized that he likes Su when Su sing modern song for Eun (that was after Su slash her hand to avoid the wedding), I guess that is why he isn't really keen as Wook did
But after the revelation, he is bound to love Su up and down! How marvelous is that? XD

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Like some have pointed here, So wasn't in love with Soo during the king marriage plan. He simply viewed her as a friend. The reason he was against the marriage was not because of love, but because he heard that the man who was going to marry her was a man with many wives and children and she was just basically 'sold' to him. He asked Jimong's help after Baekah reminded him about Soo's freedom. So cared for his friend, that's all.

On eps 1 he was just bluffing. You can see his expression changed when the knife cut her neck and she bled. He cared for her. It just didn't help if he showed it because then the assassin would use Soo for his benefit if he knew So cared abt his hostage.

Idk abt other casts, but with LJG you gotta pay attention to his eyes, expression and gesture to not missing a point. Because they always speak/mean something. Even the slightest tremble of his lips or the subtlest eyelash flutter does.

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Even the slightest tremble of his lips or the subtlest eyelash flutter does

This.
The nauseating family dinner with Queen Singyourdeathsong and his kohl-liner brother is a concrete evidence of those. Not gonna lie, I watch the scene over and over again. Worse, I downloaded 1080p version and watch it on 55" tv, still as awestruck as the first time ... how does he do that?

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"Worse, I downloaded 1080p version and watch it on 55″ tv, still as awestruck as the first time … how does he do that?"

-I just spit out my Diet Dr Pepper!! Lol!

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You're amazing hahaha.
His conversation with Queen Singyourdeathsong (love your version!!) right after he killed those monks on eps 2 is priceless too!! That scene totally sold LJG to me. I used to think of him as pretty face only and this is my first LJG drama. I am hooked, deeply and tightly :p

I'd say everytime evil mom is on the same scene with So, we would get this kind of service. So-Queen moment is so delicious.

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Wow. What an episode.

Definitely the strongest episode we’ve seen so far, followed by episode 5. It’s moments like this, when the show REALLY delivers, that make me so upset at the fact that the rest of the show just doesn’t measure up.

The moment the hanging happened, I could feel my blood run cold. The whole situation, the way everything was built up across the entire episode... so well-done.

I love the way they handled this transition. It's often so easy for a writer to make a character do something out-of-character to create conflict, but with Wook it all made sense to me. It made me angry, yes, but it made sense. It's interesting because I think that makes the audience even more angry at the character, when they understand WHY they did it even if they don't agree with it.

I really want to applaud how Wook's character is written. It would've been so easy to make him into a cliche villain, but they chose to present him as a real, deeply flawed character instead.

If only the whole show could be this cohesive and deliver this big of an impact all the time.

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I would look at you as you are on the spot Wook.

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I still wondering how will the end. Will it happy ending?
Seeing So that willing to protect Soo and risking everything, looks like he's not thinking about the throne. But if in the end he's thinking about the throne, Soo will be another miss Oh.
But as you all knew, there is a picture of So and Yeonhwa wearing wedding dress. Is that mean that So will leave Soo. How could he married Yeonhwa that he already know she's an evil.
Please....please... give us happy ending....*fingercross
I think in the 6min trailer is only until ep 12-13. So we didn't have a clue at all where is this going to end.

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All I have to say is get your case of Kleenex ready. I have a feeling that this show is going to make me cry buckets of tears.

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Don't know if this has been posted before but how adorable is this? Oh the off camera hero worshipping. ? http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cse_TdWVYAAIrms.jpg

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LOL cute

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It's YY's Scarlet Butts in a nutshell!

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Hmmmm... lets see.....the episode was super... but it made me wonder...... SO- the woman you love is going to be hanged and yet you decided to put on your BB cream first, then go and save her... talk about priorities :)

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Maybe he hasn't wash his face for days... lol...

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LOL. I didn't notice this! great spot :)

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Lol great catch.

Still you gotta look like a gorgeous BAMF when going to save the girl. Looks matter in Goryeo remember hahahaha

Also it's #stillmorethanwhatWookdid ;)

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I think what Court Lady Oh said in these few episodes really foreshadows Wook's feelings. Because of one moment of cowardice, he could no longer claim that he loves Haesoo fully. Because he was chained to his family and maybe ambition, he can no longer afford to see Haesoo and not think of his betrayal. He's a good guy, just torn by circumstances and his own family. His love for Haesoo wasn't strong enough to overcome his duty and obligations to blood.

I don't think it's his ambitions that was the start of his downfall. It's his sister and her conniving manipulation to push him as king. And going forward, we will see more and more why he agrees to this idea. He's being taught that without power, his family will suffer. Without power, his woman can be taken from him at anytime. Without power, he's powerless. Haesoo is the catalyst to this greed for the throne, but ultimately he is merely a pawn, driven by others in this tug of war game for self-preservation.

I must say, I think this drama does a lot more justice to Wook's change than the Chinese version. I never understood why the Chinese version's of Wook lost the girl. I felt really bad for him, but i was angry toward Ruoxi for her sudden change of heart and no legit reason why. Here everything's explained rationally. Wook had to betray her for his family and while now I can feel better about her jump to So, I must say that I don't think So won't do the same thing had he grown up under the same circumstances as Wook. So had nothing to lose since Haesoo IS his family. He didn't care all that much about anyone else, but Haesoo & Baek are ppl he will kill himself for.

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In the C-version, Ruoxi did not just had a change of heart. She being from the future knew that 4th prince will be king and 8th prince will die. She was hoping to alter history by giving 8th an ultimatum to.choose her or the throne. 8th chose the throne. Ruoxi broke up with him for self preservation. She knew she will not live if she stuck eith 8th knowing that he will die.

I actually liked that Ruoxi was the one who broke up with him. It was a rational decision made by herself and not forced by in your face circumstance like abandonment in the k-version.

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Yes Ruoxi dumping 8th Prince made sense but it was also kinda cold. Yes, she was upset that he would choose the throne over her and she couldn't bear the thought of losing him someday. But then she goes and falls for Yinzhen? Sure, he lives but he's a tyrant and one that her modern sensibilities wouldn't have been able to handle either, so it was incongruous to her personality to accept him either.

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I very much agree with you. There is one thing to read about the history and it's another to experience it.
Hae-soo will not be able handle Wang-so's method of dealing with his rivals. He'll decide who lives and who dies and she won't be able to do anything about it.

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"Yes Ruoxi dumping 8th Prince made sense but it was also kinda cold."

@ Coralie - I completely understand what you are saying. We know where Ruoxi is coming from because the audience has that internal dialogue. We know what will happen to the 8th prince if he were to go for the throne. But for the 8th prince, it was completely jarring. One moment, they are rolling around in the grass, kissing and reading poetry (or some such) and the next she's giving him and ultimatum, her or the throne. And when he can't understand why he can't have them both, she's already broken up with him. She came off as a complete b...ch because the characters did not know where she was coming from. I just remember the 14th prince being apoplectic because she hurt his brother.

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Honestly I understood rouxi dumping 8th Prince but felt sympathetic towards 8th Prince. So I felt him being dumped was unfair from his POV. And had a little bit of problem to digest that rouxi pondered/hesitated alot while accepting 8th because of various factors. but when she fell in love with 4th, all those reasons never bothered her?

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Well... I mean Ruoxi knew the 8th prince won't become the emperor and she also values her life. She knows nothing good comes out for being with the 8th since she knew he was going to die at the end. 8th also valued the throne more than her so she broke up with him, which is totally reasonable.

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Yeah, but in exchange for ruthless tyrant Yinzhen? Isnt that also against rationale? Sure you could say she didn't know his tyrannical ways before she got together with him or that he was capable of being so cruel. But nevertheless, she switched teams rather quickly. It's practical but also very, very cold and calculating.

Here, Haesoo does not concern herself with just his death (or her heartbreak should he die.) She was betrayed by him. When she needed him the most, he wasn't there. The transition to her eventual indifference makes sense

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to be fair on ruoxi, it was a few years after she broke up with 8th she fell in love with the 4th, it's not like she suddenly fell in love with 4th. it was 4th's prince's honesty that drawn her to him. tbh i wasn't Yinzhen's biggest fan, yes he did love ruoxi wholeheartedly but i feel like he still values the throne more. i definitely prefer LJG's take on 4th prince, he seems to value soo > throne

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ruoxi chooses to broke up because her love didn't transcend her fear of death , so she is given more agency than hae soo that has to change ship because of circumstances

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Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge RX for looking out for herself. But the fact she jumped ship so quickly after knowing that 8th Prince's fate is sealed, is really cold. Self-preservation to the max. Yinzhen was a better candidate for her love apparently cus he won't die before her. But it says to me too that she didn't love him enough to overcome this fate of his

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2 years she being along and that is long and she rejected both at that period. . . she wasn't hae soo that would probably jump the next week,

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First, you have to keep in mind that BBJX had a time spam for 20+ years. So things and events didn't happen right after another. Ruoxi's transition from 8th to 4th didn't happen within one night, not even after a few months. No, atleast two years passed away after her official break up with 8th and when she first started to have romantic feelings for 4th. Yes, she had interactions with 4th, but that was only to get in good books with him because she knew he was the future emperor. It was however, clearly written in her final letter that she first opened her heart to him when he honestly told her that he wanted the throne (which is two years after her break up with 8th). It was his darkest secret, one that will costs his life. Unlike 8th whose ambitions for the throne was an open secret to everyone, nobody knew about 4th's ambitions, so for him to be completely honest with her, was something that Ruoxi didn't expect from him, but also the thing that made her open her heart to him. The rain scene made her fell in love with him and from the moment 4th used his body to block the arrow from her, he completely took her soul (as written in her letter). She and 4th knew each other for more than 10 years before that actually “began” something together.

Ruoxi broke up with 8th because 1). He was never completely honest with her. Ruoxi, however, would rather hear the ugly truth than beautiful lies as she says by herself. It turned her off, 2). Didn’t really understood her well, 3). Deep down her heart, she wasn’t ready to suffer his downfall with him together as he would not give up on his ambitions for the throne. She knew what will be waiting ahead of him. 4). As a girl from the 21st century, she knew that his household with multiple wives would eventually ruin their relationship throughout the years (one wife being her family’s rival who resented her more than nobody else, another her own sister who was also pestered by the son of the first wife, something that Ruoxi could not ignore). Ultimately, you can also say that she didn't love 8th enough to be ready to sacrifice, take his downfall and face all the problems together including that of his household. That's why she was able to remain rational in this. Why did she fall for 4th? Because he treated her the way she wanted to be treated, and in which 8th failed in doing so. He understood her and knew what she wanted (his heart, not a powerful position in his harem) and she was smitten by that. She fell in love with 4th Prince, not the emperor. After that it only "got worse" as it was too late to put the brakes on as she fell deeper and deeper in love with him (as written in her letter). Blinded by love, until it occurred to her that she can't change his cruelness and the realization of the fact that she can't get herself ignore and let go of those who are suffering around her no matter how hard she tries. It wasn't really the concern of who lived longer, because Yongzheng died pretty...

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Your explanation does clarify things up a bit, but I didn't feel like the C-version of the drama did as well in explaining her reasons for why she broke up with 8th. In fact, it felt like the major reason why she broke up with him was because he chose the throne over her. And she knows his destiny. I mean, you could rationalize that because he wanted the throne more than her, that it told her he didn't love her enough, but it came off more like an ego-problem. Plus she knows he's going to die, so she gave up on him to save her life. There was no betrayal though, nothing that I felt like was big enough of a reason for her to break it off.

Whereas the K-version is much more lucid and the betrayal is more stark in contrast to why So is the better choice and why Haesoo would give Wook up.

But that's just how I felt when comparing and contrasting the difference between the two dramas. In just this respect I think the K-version did much better.

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@Coralie

Oh really? I thought it was explained pretty obvious in the drama. There was even a fragment of Ruoxi explicitely questioning herself whether "16 years is not enough, or is it because I don't love him enough?" So there IS a clear answer. Personally, I never felt that she broke up with him because he chose the throne over her. She tried to pull him out of the political turmoil by asking him to give up on the throne (knowing his fate), but failed to do so. Then the question became whether she was willing to take his downfall together or not considering the fact that he was determined to fight for the throne. Her answer was: no, because deeply within, she knew that her love for him wasn't strong enough for them to overcome their obstacles, because he wasn't really the man she was looking for. It wasn't the matter that HE didn't love HER enough, it was because SHE didn't love HIM enough. They had a big quarel involving Ruolan, in which 8th Prince tried to excuse his son from pestering Ruolan. This really turned off Ruoxi (along with some other frictions between them). It also indicated that their principles and ideals weren't really matching. Whilst 4th Prince had nothing to do with the break-up between her and 8th, her relationship with 4th that evolved in the middle part of the story actually emphasized the incompatability between 8th and Ruoxi and the differences between how 8th and 4th treated her. We have to keep in mind that Ruoxi IS a grown up woman from the 21st century. She knows what she wants. And let's be honest, don't we, people living in this century, break up with our partners too if we have personality clashes ;)? So at the end of the day, 4th Prince is not a better man then 8th Prince, he was just more suitable for her. Ruoxi-8th's break-up never really bothered me that much TBH.

The K-version took a different approach. I would say the typical drama tactic as in "throw the alternative boy/girl under the bus to complement the protagonists and to justify the OTP" (that's why we have so many @ssholes and bitches in dramas). C-version was very female-centric, heroine made her own choices. There is no-one to blame for the outcome than herself. That's why not everyone liked Ruoxi's actions. Whereas in K-version, I feel that they deliberately had to trash Wook in the last 10 minutes of episode 11 and paint him as the douchebag in order to justify the reason for Soo to stop loving him and for us, audience to jump ship over to our glorified, great hero 4th without tainting our heroine's image and principles. They made it so obvious for viewers to GET who we should root for because he is the better man. In K-version, our heroine doesn't get a choice. Her transition from 8th to 4th is based on the fact that 8th abandoned her in the most cruel and ugly way (yes, I'm talking about the the rain scene), whereas in the C-version, the transition is based on Ruoxi's own disacknowledgement and dissatisfation in her...

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.. her relationship with 8th.

I get where your point is coming from though. K-version made it easier for viewers to accept Soo's change in love, because afterall, Wook was the one who literally turned his back towards her when our heroine was already on the edge of being beaten to death, in her weakest and most fragile state covered with blood and wounds, yet still kneeling in the heavy rain, begging for the King's mercy regarding Lady Oh. On the contrast, we have the perfect swoony 4th Prince who would give up his entire world for the girl including his own life, on top of that, poor, scarred soul is trashed by everyone aroud him, so it is pretty obvious why Soo must choose So and who we, as audience, should root for.

What I did like better about K-version is Lady Oh's death as opposed to 13th Prince's imprisonment in the original version. I was wondering how they would play out this important event in our heroine's life, and I'm impressed with how they managed to interweave Lady Oh's story with the iconic rain scene as a replacement of 13th's imprisonment. The impact is even bigger and more gripping than 13th's tragedy.

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@Bwear - honestly, no offense, but just going off from what you said, it can be condensed to some simple explanations for why RX broke up with 8th. She couldn't stop him from wanting the throne, didn't feel compatible with him (as much) anymore and she considered that maybe she just doesn't love him enough. okay, not a big deal. women-power, she gets to break up with whoever she wants.

however, that doesn't make me feel like what she did was very fair to 8th. especially since he did everything for her (with exception to the throne.) I'm not very sympathetic to her character, no matter how rational her actions were. i did pity him, however.

in contrast, you could say that the drama threw Wook in as the baddie, but I truly felt he was a sympathetic character. everyone tried to vilify him, but my comments so far have indicated that i do not hate him. in fact, i think he was set up to a lose-lose situation. i also understand haesoo more as to her motivations for dropping Wook. it may be a much more emphasized scene of betrayal, but it was a strong enough reason for me to get why she did what she did. her reasons in C-version of BBJX seems trivial in comparison.

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@Coralie

You know, I understand why you would feel that way about Ruoxi. That's why I've always agreed that Ruoxi might seem selfish to a lot of people. She is realistic in putting herself above others first. That's also why I made it very clear in my last post that C-version was very female-centric (Ruoxi-driven), the heroine made her own choices, whether they would look good on her or not. She is a much more active character then Soo. There is no-one to blame for the outcome (the final mess) than Ruoxi herself. That’s why not every viewer could appreciate Ruoxi’s actions. In this case, not everyone liked and could understand her selfish and almost wayward decision of breaking up with 8th. Ruoxi was never forced to remain "likable" just because she is the protagonist of the story.

It's also very normal for you to prefer K-versions approach more than C-version's. Because as I said earlier, K-version made it a lot easier for viewers to accept Soo’s change in love. Reminds me of what another commentor named "D", said on Koala's blog: How can one be on Team 8 when the drama is hell bent on making Wang So the Hero (and Wook the opposite)? As if Wook's betrayel isn't enough, Writer-nim has to trash him in the last 10 minutes of episode 11, just to make it believable for audience (and ofcourse Soo herself) to abandon ship. Not because he abandoned her for the throne and his family, but because he left her in the most cruel and cold way possible (turning his back to the deadly tortured Soo who is kneeling in the cold rain). We are directed to think in that way: she must be crazy if she didn't choose So instead of Wook. I use to be on Wook's side, but now? I totally approve of Soo breaking up with him, and it's not even her fault because she is the poor victim in this.

That being said, I like how C-version was different from the usual Mary-sue setting. I love how each character in the original were flawed and that everyone made choices that benefitted themselves (yes, including Ruoxi).

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Also, as I've said in my previous post: the last 10 minutes of episode 11 made it so obvious that our K-heroine doesn’t get a choice. It's almost natural, needless to say that she will AND should break up with Wook and go for So. She plays a passive role in this matter. Whereas in the C-version, BECAUSE Ruoxi made that choice herself, it leaves room for audience to debate the choices she made as a character and whether she should have stayed with 8th.

Yes, Ruoxi's decisions are rational and understandable. But for some viewers, she may also seem selfish and not self-sacrificial enough as the "heroine". So I can totally understand why you don't like her. But personally, I'm okay with that :). I like that she is not perfect; it makes her character more dimensional.

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Exactly, Ruoxi just did not love 8th prince enough to suffer with him, or become his widow.

And since we haven't seen the next episodes yet, how would we know whether Haesoo is going to jump ship the next day, next week, next month, next year or 2 years later???

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I know all of you are interested in my American entertainment perspective. I found this on wiki: "Scarlet Heart Ryeo is the first Korean drama project for Universal Studios, which is investing US$10 million; Scarlet Heart: Ryeo began airing on 29 August 2016.[9]"

which *records scratch* WHUT? I had no idea an US studio had thrown in 10 million dollars. You know that if you have an investor with that much money in the game, they're going to have some say over creative. Man, I can hear that pitch in the room right now: "So, it's a Korean Game of Thrones."

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Industry stuff aside, this episode was so good.

The pacing was perfect, every single thread of plot moved forward, which is what a show like Game of Thrones does in its best episode (let's not forget when GOT drags, it drags like hell too). I feel like the slowness of the first 6 episodes kind of lured the viewers into a false sense of comfort, because that's how Hae-Su felt. We felt as she did, that palace life wasn't so bad. And then the stakes just got ratcheted up to a 10 in the last two episodes and now, as they say in America, shit got real.

This show is just such a good corollary to GOT, because we're dealing with a lot of the same dynamics: power-hungry people, a naive girl trying to survive, women struggling for power under men think that they're ruling. Some of the concessions to the kdrama form feels like it really turned many non-Korean viewers off, like Prince Eun, who manages to suck any dramatic tension out of most scenes. It makes me curious about these co-productions in the future, will they abandon the kdrama tropes all together or will Kdrama evolve into something of a new hybrid? This show feels like an experiment in both.

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I think it was NBC

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I'd really wished it to be a dark battle for the throne as I am more interested in that area of the drama than the love story. I don't care who he's gonna end up with so long as he has Baek Ha in his side as they fight together for the throne. I am actually hungry for fighting scenes just like those in the 2nd and 3rd episodes. I Hope for more sword fights in the coming episodes.

Well probably I am with the minority if not the only one who's not too keen in the love story. :) :) I would have preferred if they have sent someone from the 21th century to Goryeo whose not only a skin specialist but a martial arts master & sword expert as well. In that way, she can be useful to Wang So in the battlefield.

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My interest in this drama was never the romance. It's LJG, Ha Neul and the Story. Specially after hearing that Scarlet China was good. I was really hoping that the remaining episodes will be about battles and Politics. Like Queen Seon Deok and DaeJanggeum.

OUT OF TOPIC: Are you the same "Sam" that commented recently on Ratings report about MLSHR fans being touchy about ratings? I just wanna know because i remember you saying that Koreea is missing out by not watching this. Haha. So it doesn't make sense if you are the same person.

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@endo I'm sorry if my message may have come across different from what I have intended to say. I love and enjoying the drama as it is. I don't have any complaints. Though I have been anticipating more of the rise of Wang So to throne than the love story. That's what I mean in the last part of my above comment. It meant it as a joke so my apology as it didnt come across funny.

And I still believe that those who are not watching this drama are missing alot. :)

I become obsessive over this drama and Lee Joon Gi. That doesn't make sense. My only consolation is, I know I am not alone.

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Not that comment. This one:

39 Sam September 25th, 2016 at 2:09 PM
Seriously guys, how can you even compare Moon Lovers’ SIMULCAST broadcast against Moonlight’s DELAYED airing internationally?! Even KBS World couldn’t manage to air it at the same time in Korea. China’s MangoTV didn’t even promote it. Japan’s KNTV isn’t even airing it until November. I get that it’s a consolation that Moon Lovers is indeed doing well internationally (bravo!) but comparing it to Moonlight’s (significant) international audience who gets to watch the episodes days/months after Koreans is truly childish. If you want equal footing, compare the domestic audience. But then again, that’s a touchy subject for some.

I mean is this you? You don't have to apologize, it's your opinion. I just want to know if there are several Sams here in DB. It's kind of confusing because i know you are obsessed like me. And then i saw this comment.

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I was hoping for more fighting scenes as well...

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this just make Kdrama looked bad, seriously . . this isn't game of thrones even at their best episode,

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There are a lot worst kdramas out there. At least this one is intriguing.

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Hollywood? Yeah, I was wondering why this show was screwed up so much. It's what America is best at, screwing things up. :P

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I don't know how to feel about this comment...

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What the heck, they finance it not make the show. This is all SBS.

Goodness there are great and memorable shows in Hollywood.

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Hah, no arguments there. Plenty of Hollywood f*ckups when it comes to projects. But Hollywood has set the standard for what we consider to be entertainment worldwide. I'm just pointing out how this show skews towards a more international format. If Universal has invested 10 million dollars you can be damn sure SBS had to heed suggestions made by American investors. As someone who works in TV, I know that there's no such thing as a project with multiple investors with only ONE company taking all creative direction.

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Can someone please explain why the 9th prince is suddenly evil.

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I think he is more opportunist and has no guilt over who gets hurt.
He was always on his own side. Now he has chosen the one that he thinks will advance his cause.
Which reveals his character for the first time. Earlier we just didn't see enough evidence either way.

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Well he may not be evil before but he's not 13th and 14th level.

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I donno.... I think 9th will play a pretty evil later on in the show. He seems so sketchy

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From the start he was never really "good", he just went along with the good times. Now that everything's falling apart his selfishness is coming out and he wants to be on the winning side, which right now seems to be Queen Yoo's. His only concern is himself.

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The 9th prince was always on the side of the 3rd prince, currying his favor etc. even from the very 1st episode at the bath house. Another scene was the "bitch-fight" between Haesoo and Eun, where he followed 3rd prince's lead. His "not-so-nice" character became more apparent at Eun's birthday party, where you could see him gloating at 4th prince's unmasking.

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To use another GOT reference. We were all such sweet Summer's child when we started Scarlet Heart (ep 1-8). Winter is coming.

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Great reference!!! :)

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Symbolic!!! She found strength by him.

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This is about princess Yeon hwa,
I don't think she did it for any other reason other than to save Wang So.
She is really wise. What she did was a quick & smart move...& smooth too.
When she collapsed, she intentionally knocked down the tea pot to add severity on the situation.
The first words that actually came out of her mouth was, " What about So? Hurry!"
She knows for a fact that no one will notice that the 4th prince drank the poison unless she made a commotion for it to be known.

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Possibly no other reason but she went out of her way to set Su up as scapegoat, and So, by walking away as if fine, just robbed her of that success.

I think she does have some feeling for So but I don't think any love for him can come close to equalling her ambition. Yes, she was restraining herself from stopping So when he was swallowing poison, but you have to remember that part of her plan with Queen Yoo was probably the assurance of marriage to So and Queen Yoo's assistance to elevate him once the CP was dead. She had just announced she wouldn't be a king's daughter or sister, she was going to be a Queen, so I think this was her plan.

Thus, one part of her plan would be completely out the window if So died. She made sure the other part, Hae Su being framed, was brought to fruition.

I kind of admired her quick thinking, just as I admired So's, in that scene. The two of them are kind of similar.

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Sorry for my lack of knowledge in Korean history (and also if this has already been said in a previous post) but right now, I am guessing (i have the feeling) that the "future evil king" Hae Soo is trying to remember is not going to be the 4th prince, but the 8th... therefore this little changes we're seeing about him?! When, initially like the heroine, we thought the 4th was meant to be the evil one.... (again, talking from the perspective of someone with no real references on Korean history, sorry)...

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Your guess is incorrect.

This has been mentioned in the comments before, but here's a link so you don't have to dig for the other references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangjong_of_Goryeo

"Gwangjong (925 – 4 July 975), personal name Wang So, was the fourth king of Goryeo."

I've learned a lot about Korean history since watching their dramas. Even the english version of wiki has helped me learn the recorded history compared to what is portrayed in dramas. Some things one can't find there, but most of the more famous historical characters get at least some mention.

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Thank you very much for your answer!! :) Maybe sometimes, as fans, we like to make our own story...and wish we had the power to change history and/or the story... anyway, I enjoy watching this drama.... and I really think LJG is a great actor.... I really think he nails all his roles.... but I especially liked him on Time between Wolf and dog :) such a great drama! BTW .... the "good queen" isn't the same actress as the "NIS boss" in that one (time between...) ? Her face is too similar!

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yup, i got that feeling too. you are not alone, some youtubers comment also guessing that will be the final story. of course, history aside. but my feeling also think, that even it is not the 8th prince, it is still him who will kill other princes. I mean, he has much more reason to do that now. assume he will be so thirst of king position, then

1. he needs to kill 3rd prince, as he's the most obvious one who wants the position too, and 9th prince (because his the supporter of 3rd prince). not to mention he has hatred towards Queen family because of his family suffering and the sole reason why he lose Suu.

2.he will kill So because he stole his girl.

3.he will kill 14th prince because his is supporter of Wang So or part of the Queen family.

4.he will kill the rest of prince because he's just so mad due to his current circumstances right now (losing Suu and his moral value because of his sister)

and Wang So will save the day and thrive to gain the throne.

the reason why i am thinking this is simply timeline. there is not enough time or episode left for writer to build storyline to make transition from superhero Wang So to supermad Wang So. Unless, in the process for power struggle between the princes, Suu character needs to be killed of , and this will trigger the monster side of Wang So.

Or, they just pure genius writer and will make twisted plot like they did in this episode for Wook character.

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Wow! I hdan't thought about all the political motivations for killing each prince... thanks! I guess I focused too much on the hate between our two main antagonists. Anyway, let's see how these adventure ends... if they dereailed from history accuracy they could pretty much go this way... if they stick to history,well, it's kinda spoiled the ending...but still nice to watc some story like this... I hope HS can go back to the present, and somehow I would love to find the same Goryeo characters (princes especially) but on the modern era.... who knows..... maybe HS can find her beloved modern version 4th prince in the Seoul streets...

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I know it's not just me - but I can't seem to stop replaying that final scene over and over and over - and the last image of So holding Soo in the rain is now my new desktop screensaver. This image - this scene - this emotion - this power - THIS - is what k-dramas mean to me. All of it in this one image. Crying for joy.

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Guys I just posted on another forum about how I want this drama going in my imagination. THIS IS NOT A SPOILER, it just how I want this drama to end ok.

I want Scarlet Heart to have sweet ending, so to honor the history based on wikipedia :D, my version will go like this;

Wang Mu will sit on the throne and grant Soo-So marriage. Yo killed Mu for the throne, and So will revenge Mu (and in between Yeon Hwa and Queen SMS will die in agony). Once So become king people will oppose Soo's low status to stand as a queen. Then Soo will sacrifice herself to shield So from assassination. She wakes up in modern era like time just stop from the moment she jump to the lake, only to find future Ji Mong died to save her from drowning. History changed, Soo's modern family changed (I wish to see court lady Oh and lady Hae return here) and BB cream is banned because it is a north korean product which sales support Kim Jong Un military forces. Soo cannot let go her feelings for So, on another solar eclipse she got drowned for good. She returns to Goryeo and finding So and Wook wailing on her deathbed. Wook will beg his mother to adopt Soo as his last present to the woman he ever loved. Sending her with a title befitting a queen, and a new name Dae Mook. And everybody kiss and make up and world peace.

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And why not? A lot of people are resistant to the idea of Su meeting So in the future and him not remembering anything about her, so this would solve that problem.

My favorite would be that Su actually does change something in that historical period. She's pulled out of the water in Korea by a Wang So reincarnation, aged up I think, accompanied by a Baek Ah reincarnation. Eun is the little boy that was drowning. His parents are Lady Hae and Wook, deeply in love, and his grandmother is a widowed Lady Oh. It turns out that North and South Korea were never divided in history because of whatever Su started in the past, and Wang So is up for election to be president of a united Korea. As we pan out from the scene, our vision is filled with the beggar man, Ji Mong, with a huge smile on his face and the screen fills with water.

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LOL we might got scriptwriting nomination for daesang :D

World peace baby.

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Ikr? Lol. I'm a big proponent of world peace!

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I also think that she went to make a deal with the queen to get rid of the crown prince, because the last thing she knows, the ministers wants the crown prince to step down & replace him with Wang So.
If that happens, she can be a potential wife of Wang So.
To add to that, she can get rid of Hae Soo by framing her.
It was not in the scenario she planned that the evil queen might inform Wang So about it and things became a mess.
But facing that unexpected turn of event, she is very quick to make an act.
When she looked on the evil queen, she might be telling her, how could you this?
Just maybe the original plan is, if Wang So becomes the crown prince since prince Mu will die of poison, she can be his wife. But before that happens, she needs tha approval of the evil queen.
The evil queen is also cunning like a fox.
I still dont know what she's up to.

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Oh sorry, i forgot to mention princess Yeon Hwa on my 2nd post.

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I feel like most people who are sympathising with Wook's cause missed the point the drama was focusing on. It wasn't about his (shall I say?) "Sophie's choice" - between choosing the women he loved or his family's safety. I thought what it really boils down to was a choice between Su and the throne. While it's understandable that would his priorities have been to ensure his family's safety, it was natural that he wouldn't turn Yeon Hwa in. The key was in the scene when he caught Yeon Hwa in the act, and he accepted her offer to give him the crown. That was the scene that his ambitions prevailed and the moment he chose the throne over Su. This was further emphasized to the viewers in the scene in the rain where it was clear that Wook chose to turn his back on Su, metaphorically and physically. While it was understandable that he didn't turn Yeon Hwa in to save Su, he needn't go as far as not doing anything at all, a point that was emphasized by Court Lady Oh. Yes he was put into a difficult position, but turning a blind eye on Yeon Hwa's act AND murdering the Court Lady involved was enough to ensure his family's safety, he could've plea with the king, but he didn't because that would make him less favourable and something he wouldn't want if he wasn't eyeing the throne. He needn't go as far as So by sheltering her in the rain, the other princes stood in solidarity with her and in defiance of the king in their own way, but he didn't, he made a clear choice, and that was to walk away from her for he has a bigger picture in mind. That for me was the choice that the drama put forth, and a theme that ran through this episode and I assume will be running through the rest of the series - love vs power.

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Nayour, what an important distinction you've made.....Wook surrendered to his sister because he wants the throne, it isn't just his sister pressuring him, but more like Anneken Skywalker the temptation is always there and finally his sister becomes the voice and he listens this time and turns into the dark side.....Anneken listened to the hate, and took that step....and Darth Vader was born...and Queen Amidala was the price or sacrifice ...here it's Su he walks away from.....and that I think is why he said to her you are my debtor and I am yours.....We have a fallen Jedi in our mists....

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I agree. He didn't like what his sister did, but he accepted that what she did was to increase his chances for the throne. He considers it a debt to her, which means in some way he wanted/approved of it.

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Wook was going to surrender his ambitions when he asked Haesoo to marry him. He said so himself. He doesn't like politics.

However, that's not to say if he had the chance he wouldn't reject it. But it wasn't because of ambition that he chose to take his sister's side; it's because he really had no choice. From what he saw, his sister did it for him. She may have voiced a piece of him that secretly was true, but it didn't have a strong enough hold for him to not trade it in for a life with Haesoo. However because his sister endangered her own life for his sake, he owes her (however messed up that was), but she owes him more. She promised to give him the throne, but at that point in time, she had no right to promise anything. He was the reason she's not dead. He doesn't believe she'll be able to win the throne for him, but whether she can or can't, he can't let his family die.

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Yeah I agree. I also don't think she did it to put him on the throne anyway. She already stated she's given up on that plan. Part of her plotting with Queen Yoo was likely to propose a marriage to So and therefore become queen herself.

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Yeah I understand what you mean, but I respectfully disagree. The way I see it Wook always had ambitions and it's clear that ultimately he couldn't throw them away for Su. While he made empty promises about saving her, leaving everything behind with her, he never acted on it, as we've seen time and time again. I see the reason for his inability to act on his words was because he had other reservations (ie. his duty towards his family) and what Yeon Hwa did was ultimately force him to confront the choice he's been avoiding.

What I'm trying to say is that while we can and are allowed to sympathise with Wook, the bigger picture anyway was that he chose to throw her away for his ambitions. While his motivations are clearly for his family, he still made the choice to turn his back on her. Irregardless of what he said before, any of the empty promises he made, the choice he made, I felt at least, is the highlight of his character this episode. In a sad way it kinda paralleled that of King and Lady Oh's story, in his quest for power, he chose to give up his personal desires. Basically what I'm trying to say is - Wook's choice wasn't one of family or Su, it was between power and love - and it's clear that he chose the first rather than the later.

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@Nayour - Yes I agree to disagree :). But here's my rationale on this:

I don't think it's ambition...yet. He's scared of the repercussions of pissing his dear old dad and he's scared of taking action, but he puts a lot more weight to his decisions than So does. So is reckless and does things without considering the consequences of his action (like dragging Haesoo out the palace.) Yeah you could say Wook could've done the same, but Wook has other concerns. Not just for himself, but also for his family. So doesn't. So doesn't care and Haesoo is his family.

Like i said, he's stated himself that he doesn't like politics and he doesn't care about moving out of the palace. He just wanted Haesoo. But because he owes his sister for placing her life in danger for his sake and he wanted to save her, he had to betray Haesoo. Both choices were poison to him, really. He doesn't want to sacrifice anyone, but at the end of the day, blood ran thicker than water. I can't say I blame him, which is why he wins my sympathy vote (and let's not compare him to So 'cause that's just not a fair comparison.)

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Wook finally realised the truth in what his sister said i,e, he did, in fact, desire the throne. To some extent, protecting his family gave him the perfect excuse to pursue his ambition. We can't just all blame Yeon Hwa - she is his excuse. Wook wants to have his cake & eat it too - be king, protect family, have Soo.

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@ilovejis - the alternative to saving Haesoo is that his family dies. Because of him and his sister's assumption that he wants the throne. For his sake, they would die. What his sister said might be true, but not the whole truth. It's not the one and only thing he craves for in his life. You have to understand that Wook carries the burden of protecting his family. Nothing can happen to him because that means it leaves his family in danger. He even told Haesoo that he killed when he was very young because he needed to protect his family. My point being, yes his family is his excuse and greed for power may play a part in it, but it is not the main reason why he betrays haesoo

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I've seen this before where someone suggested that he wanted Lady Oh to put the blame on herself and be executed, but all I saw in my version was him asking Lady Oh to speak to the king on Su's behalf.

Other than that, I liked what you said throughout and agree with you. It wasn't just about his family, it was about the throne as well.

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I have always felt like Wook wanted the throne because he was raised with that mentality, that there is a possibility he will be king, you know when you want something and you think there is no other option for your life, but that, so I have always felt Wook had his eyes on the throne, but of course very subtly shown. It is just that when he fell in love with Su, I think he began seeing a life other than being king, (especially when his wife was out of the picture because his wife reminded him that very reason he was still in the running for king was his wife, it's like he feels he owes it to her to be king) and he mused on the idea of a life with Su outside the palace, and started to dream of it. When he thought he had no other option for his life, he saw another, and he wanted it. That is why he began spouting those promises to Su, because he himself is dreaming of that life and was excited at the prospect of such a life. But his sister put him back on that mentality, that want for the throne because he again feels he has no other option for his life. There are people who just feel compelled to box themselves in when they feel they have no other option for their lives, and Wook is one of those. It is one of his weakest traits, and very hard to overcome. It is also the thing that separates him from So, and the very reason why we all love So. But I just cannot help but sympathize with Wook. Anyway, I absolutely love how Wook is written. He is truly a pitiful character.

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I totally love this dorama!!! So and Su :O the best couple, I hate Wook

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My heart is completely broken and shattered into a million pieces.. Court Lady Oh, you will be dearly missed.. :'(

And it sucks even more because she was a mother figure to Su. First, Lady Hae passed away and now Court Lady Oh. :( Aigoo, Su-ah :'(

On another note..

From the beginning of this series to before this episode, my favorite prince was Wook. Like Kang Ha-neul's stare is so intense and asifh;aj;adl

but

after this episode

to hell with everyone else, 4TH PRINCE ALL THE WAY

LJK is absolutely electrifying and brilliant on screen; and Wook's love for Su pales in comparison to So's. My Wook-Su ship has officially sunk all the way to the bottom but not to fear because So-Su ship is here and here to stay >:D

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yes, me too. i am big fan of Wook-Suu since the snow scenes, perhaps much earlier than that. Wang So is for me, apologize to all team So out there, a little bit whiny. I understand he suffered such a tremendous amount of miseries the writers could possibly give it to his character, but his attitude toward his scars annoys me. I mean, without scars his face is 10. with scars, he is still an 8, at worst. so i dont understand why he make such a big deal of it, even Suu said "small scars" when she touched it. it is much more understandable, for me at least, he hurts by what the scars represents, the boy who got rejected by his own mother. that's what he should be ashamed for by the scars, not because it ruins his face. which, by the way, i never fully understand why the Queen did that in the first place.

but eps11 of course has turned the table for me. Wook is a big disappointment. I won't say he is coward because he did what a man needs to do as a family head, but because he is not brave enough to go inside prison and face Suu admitting it. he lets that poor girl hopes high. and there when wook betrays Suu trust.

wang so, on the other hand, has walked the walk. he does not approved what his family do, but he still love them, and try to find the best way to save Suu and Crown prince, without uncover his mother scheme, by sacrifying himself. I like his feeling toward Suu, just blunt and honest. he's not disappointed when Suu rejected him by saying she already loved someone else. instead, he made a joke about it. nor he accepted Suu theory that the he has misunderstood friendship with love. he knows well what his heart wants. and there when Wook defeated by So.

"weak heart can not win the pretty lady". so long Wook-Su...

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Just to give my 2 cents about the scar, imo, it's not that he wants to make a big deal about it, but rather the environment & beliefs of the Goryeo royalty & people that the scar is something so horrifying that:
1. According to Chaeryung, he wouldn't be allowed into the city if he was not a prince.
2. The scar marks him as a monster or abomination - note that they started throwing stones & mud at him after he revealed the scar during the rain ritual scene.

As to why the Queen scarred his face, it was not really intentional, she was threatening the King that she would kill Wang So if the king continued with his marriage ceremony to no. xx (it was on the day that her 1st son, the 2nd prince, died), and in their struggle for the knife, she/they accidentally cut his face.

Haesoo considered it a small scar & not a big deal because she's from our time and don't have the same beliefs of the Goryeo people, but because of the scar, he was rejected by not only his mother, but also his father, brothers, sisters, adopted mother & clan, officials and the people of his Goryeo world.

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This episode had me all curled-up and crying. By far, the best episode yet. I also have to applaud the OST. Since the premiere episode, the music, song choices, really added soul to the drama. And my golly, Im Sun Hae's voice is hypnotic and haunting!

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I love Lee Jun Ki. In his early years in the business, he tended to over-act. But he became 10X better since he came back from the military. I initially didn't watch this show because of the low ratings. I started at EP 8 and wasn't drawn in initially. But the last two episodes were so good. In Moonlight Drawn by Clouds, it was so cute and addictive up until the confession and kiss. But, things started to fizzle out and got a little boring. In contrast, this show started to really pick up after LJK got rid of the mask and show his best asset (his eyes) and he had the kiss (forced) with Su. I can't wait until Su really falls for him. Hurry up girl, it's episode 11 already!

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I agree! Somehow after that climatic kiss moment in MDBC, RaOn kinda lost her charm. I liked her before because she was fun. She was carefree, kinda reckless and spoke her mind no matter who it was. After being with the prince as his "gf," she became this antsy, wide-eyed stare girl all the time. She lost her momentum and just passively agrees to everything. It's becoming less exciting.

Scarlet Heart on the other hand, is finally picking up speed. This was, hands-on, one of the best double episode so far. It hasn't reached climax yet (which they will and then shit will hit the fan and go downhill from there) so there is still more to look forward to.

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came here and find this comment dramatic since hae soo didn't do anything either, she is the epitome of candy damself in distress
ra-on provide emotional support for the crown prince as you heard them said that over and over in the drama, she always there and give him strength, didn't leave him,

that is youth saeguk with 19 old that established more good deed than the adult in goryeo,
joseon political is more structural and bigger when an enuch information alone can send bad rumor,
it needs to be more careful in joseon palace cause they have more people in play than in this drama,

praise SH all you want but don't compare to others since they are different,
Moonlight is always a romantic show but to said it got down after the kiss in underestimate what they did if you watch them than read or saw a screencap,
even moonlight has more tight up the plot but nobody really questions the plot since it's more understandable, people linked to each other
and the story never meant to be gore because the heroine is still a minor,
even with that, they can show little ruthless character then character in SH,
I am getting worked up because of this but I am tired of seeing this justification coming on how SH is better, do it on other thread than just here shading them silently,

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I'm sorry but I can barely follow your writing, delama. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying both dramas. But what's so bad about comparing them? Everyone has their opinions. Personally, I think even at 16, the female lead in Moonlight Drawn By Clouds is a better actress than in Scarlet Heart. But right now, I'm anticipating the next episode of SH more. I really want to hug the love-deprived 4th prince. LJK was hot even right after being on the brink of death and he was hot in the rain too.

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Sorry you got worked up over this. Noone is comparing the two subject-wise, but I do think pacing-wise, SH is kicking up speed and MDBC is slowing down somewhat.

As for the characterization-wise, it is apparent that RaOn has been quite passive since the love confession (dunno about the latest two epi cus I haven't watched them yet.) She hasn't done anything, just dodging trouble left and right. Haesoo, the other hand, had been kneeling for mercy for days in front of the King even though she knows doing so is a cause for execution. She tried to run away with Lady Oh but of course there's nowhere for them to go. She had been actively trying to stop So from liking her by keeping her distance and explaining to him that she doesn't like him or that he doesn't really like her, like her.

It's really apparent at this point that Haesoo is just doing more than RaOn, but that may change later on. Pacing always change. I just don't like the pacing of RaOn at this point.

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my point is people compared the drama here but didn't watch moonlight to understand how invalid the comparison are,
even the crown prince said himself that ra-on gives him ideas, he likes her around him cause she gives him emotional support,
the danger about her didn't happen suddenly but the things that planned way in weeks before, the hint of the queen suspicion and the rebellion force is always there,

if I have to compare, hae soo do nothing than being unlucky and know nothing to make the situation better, at least she can think of some situation in the palace, did the kneeling worked? no! what hae soo accomplished so far is only the makeup,
ra-on at least keep his promises, be there and assist the crown prince, and that's a 19 years old character that was never meant to have 25+ years old soul or have a high position in the palace, ra-on gives her thought to help crown prince solve the problem, she is always in danger because of him but she stays, she also always talks back to crown prince and be snarky to him, she thought about his position in palace and suggest the marriage,

I am laughing at the irony that I am defending moonlight here and I just don't think it needed to shade moonlight here since people who watched moonlight doesn't comment often and this image about how moonlight in only for teens is just so funny,
I knew lot of people here didn't watch moonlight cause they afraid of the competition that the talk about moonlight here always for bad comparison, write it on open thread or in moonlight recapped or in the more open theme than just shades the other show here to show how superior moon lovers is,

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"my point is people compared the drama here but didn’t watch moonlight to understand how invalid the comparison are"

But...everyone in the thread above your response seems to have/is watching MDBC though? How would they be able to compare the pacing, talk of whats happening in MDBC if they weren't?

"I knew lot of people here didn’t watch moonlight cause they afraid of the competition that the talk about moonlight here always for bad comparison, write it on open thread or in moonlight recapped or in the more open theme than just shades the other show here to show how superior moon lovers is"

I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I don't watch Moonlight is hardly because I'm afraid of the competition..number 1, I'm outside Korea so I can't affect anything domestic anyway. Number 2, I did give MDBC a try, and it's been said before, numerous times, and everyone acknowledges its the superior production, plot wise, pacing wise etc., but for me, I just couldn't get into the story. It's not my cup of tea, because apparently my tastes this month lean towards waiting for a lead couple to sail for 11 episodes (or more. GDI show when will you give me some happy moments??!).

Lastly, I'm sorry you feel that the MLSHR threads are simply places where MDBC is 'shaded'. That hasn't been my experience at all..I follow the threads religiously (it's sort of scary to admit that because then it makes me realize how much time this show is demanding from me *sweat drops*) and MDBC is RARELY mentioned IMO. As you pointed out, that's what the open threads, and Ratings threads are for (-comparison, not shading, and those devolve into such contentious threads sometimes that I simply have to scroll past large chunks) so in short, I hope you have a better time here in future!

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indeed. i hate the writer who makes RaOn character less strong than the beginning. especially after she needs to be saved by the CP over and over again. i am just hoping that knowing herself as daughter of head of rebellion, at least could make her do something useful and save the CP in return.

with HS, how could ones think she does not do anything ? this show is all about girl power, btw. yes, she puts herself in trouble most of the time, but she fought thugs to save 14th prince, she saved herself from force marriage, she survived tortured, she knows boundaries when it comes to someone husband, she's optimistic despite the fact she could not return to her century, she never asked for help to all princes,and so much more..

I love MLDBC more than ML, but saying HS didnt do the best does not do her a justice. She's the stronger female character I have seen so far in asian drama since San Chai/Makino tsukushi in meteor garden.

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Some people here watched both ML and MDBC, so sometimes comparisons were mentioned but not so often. However, since this is ML comment section, expect more people to favor that drama over the competition.

I used to watch MDBC but lost interest already and found ML to be more engaging, because that's my taste. We all have our own preferences and since I have fallen in love with this show, I only go to sites/pages/forum with the same interest as mine.

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As for the characterization-wise, it is apparent that RaOn has been quite passive since the love confession (dunno about the latest two epi cus I haven’t watched them yet.)

this is the exact quote from the commenter above and it's funny too when woman role is defined here and get praise by how much they can behave like a man (saved herself by a very non-applicable solution) or kneeling cause it looks like they move but can't appreciate when woman ala raon show their role as a woman or as a supporter willingly,
the only reason ra-on is in trouble is because she is near the crown prince while hae soo makes the problem by her own incompetence,

I don't mind if you don't watch Moonlight, but to compare before knowing and add the biased perspective just like all the remark to the chinese version here just make me sad,
must be fun to fight for the underdog cause the high up must be the bad guy, sigh

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@Delama -

Watch the first episode of RaOn versus RaOn in the episodes previous to the most recent two. Are you telling me you don't notice a change? if so, well I don't really know what to tell you. but it's obvious to many that RaOn has gone from independent, butt-kicking, problem-saving lady to a despondent, dependent and damel-in-distress. It does not do justice to her original personality.

as for haesoo, and the examples you cited, how many of the princes actually had the balls to kneel before the king after being tortured for days on end and with the threat of execution hanging by a thin thread? nobody. just her. if that's not badass, i don't know what is. how many had the nerve to save someone in trouble even though she had negligible defenses? how many would willingly cut themselves and openly reject the king? um, big fat zero. i'm not saying RaOn wasn't badass, because she was, but that's past-tense. WAS. i was a big fan of MDBC, much bigger than SH and in lurrrv with RaOn, but her recent characterization has thrown me off and made me disappointed with her.

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It's not even relevant to compare two heroines from two different eras. Hae-soo is currently a lowly court-maid who is actually from the 21st century. Ra-on is rebel's daughter cross-dressing as lowly eunuch.
They have nothing in common beside feeling helpless, restricted and unable to do more to help themself or the people that they care about.

I'm cheering hard for Yeon Hwa because this girl can do it. She is in a position that would allow her to rise and protect herself and her family. She will choose her own destiny unlike her father's queens.

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Oh man LJG is drama God's gift to us all. I agree, he started to get really good from Arang, especially Joseon's Gunman!

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He was brilliant right from the start. No one come close with his portrayal of Gong Shil in The King and the Clown in 2005. He was a Hallyu star from then on.

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We all know that by now So and Wook have considered the throne. The difference in their approach however is that Wook was and is pressured to marry for political gains and not marry Soo because she will not strengthen his position. He didn't manage to establish his own position in the palace, therefore he has to rely on supports of his family and maintain a good relationship with the king (this inevitably leading him to abandon Soo). Wook has no strong influence in the palace whatsoever so the only thing he can do is to not make it worse by losing the little pre-existing support he has. One thing he's coward and YeongHwa knows that and that's why she's more than happy to do the scheming. 'So' however, is not so passive. He does not see it as either throne or Soo. Despite going against orders time and again for Soo, he's still very much eligible for the throne, because he already proved he's worthy of it through his personal acts i.e. Sacrificing himself for the CP, performing the rain ritual. Regardless of whether he has the support of his pathetic family or any of royal household, in my opinion, he (though he might not realise it) have won the trust of the King, CP and the people. Which is why I don't feel sorry for Wook. Had he have the ounce of courage and conscience like So, he would have done something to solidify his position earlier on so maybe just maybe he could have protected his family and at the same time keep Soo by his side.

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Thanks for this recap, Heads!

Alright, I just jumped off the second lead ship after watching this episode. Goodbye Wookie and well, hello, 4th prince (all the way now, chincha)!

I am so sad for Lady Oh. I mean is the king so powerless against the evil queen? Why? I really cannot fathom....So Lady Oh was right about asking him if he would look the other way AGAIN when he knows who the real culprit is. The cave scene was just heartbreaking especially when Su reminded her that she once said that they'll go to her hometown while barely removing a single rock from the blocked exit. That was such a heartbreaking goodbye...

I really like the interaction of So-Su. They always banter like bestfriends, even when So visited Su in jail. He was like of course I didn't do it for you, and she was like follow your doctor's orders, rest so don't visit me here anymore okay? and the other would go, "always nagging". It's so sweet, really. So even faced his father to once again beg for her life. I mean he did try everything. And that scene when Su was about to get hanged. I really do think So plans to kill all the guards and leave the palace with Su, maybe thinking damn the king's command but I will not let this girl get killed! I mean he's risking everything but he doesn't care because he's intent to save the girl. He even drank three cupfuls of poisoned tea for goodness sakes! You'd think that would be enough, but no he shielded Su with his beautiful black cloak against the rain, my goodness. If I were Su I would say, right there and then, So take me, I am all yours! I love you, Lee Jun Ki!

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But So has never loved anyone. He tolerates and likes Baek and of course has affection for the general, but he doesn't carry any emotional burden for anyone. Soo was the closest thing he has to family. I mean before he found out his mom really didn't love him, he even killed all those monks for her and that was AFTER being treated like crap by his own parents. Imagine what he'd be like if he had Wook's burdens to his loving family. I don't know if he'll sacrifice their lives in order to save Soo.

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You've got a point. He's loyal to a fault to his family even though they markedly aren't loyal to him. What if they had supported him all his life, loved him, and he had to choose between them and Su.

I honestly think he would figure out a way to save them all, mainly because he is willing to sacrifice himself, can be quite ruthless, and is incredibly strategic. Look what he does at the tea poisoning thing. He saves the Crown Prince (who he is fond of) AND Su, AND even his family. This was split second thinking all through from the moment he saw Su enter with the tea.

If So was in Wook's position, I think he'd figure out a way to save Su and his family with his own self-sacrifice or a ruthless plot to put the blame on someone he hates.

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You brought up a very good point as well. So may just be smarter than Wook, even with all things considered and if their backgrounds had been similar. So may end up not being as reckless, but I think the loyalty piece is very inherent in both brothers, just that Wook weighed his options and wasn't smart enough to make both options work for him. I just feel bad for him because both of his choices at the time were poison. No matter what he would lose.

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what I don't understand is, Wook initially wanted to 'jeopardize' his family by asking King to marry Suu (that led to YH drastic measure to poison the CP). So, why back out now ?

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Erm... because she's standing trial for conspiracy to murder.

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I meant why he back out to at least support her during kneeling? It won't endanger his family status as much as his early intention to marry a court lady, right? At that point, i dont think it's about his family anymore. He aware for his ambition now, and having involved with Suu gives no more advantages to him in the future.

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Lee Jun Ki is seriously the most beautiful actor!!! He has that beautiful face but a very sexy deep voice and awesome martial arts skill, it's kind of mind blowing lol
But his dramas kept getting low ratings *sobs*

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I really don't think about the ratings anymore. LJG has nothing to prove in Korea. And the international presence of this drama is massive. So don't be sad.

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Also, we are not supposed to look rating at one segment of the market but rather as whole. Why would we be sad for not doing well as expected on the 50 million people domestic market (which is the population of Korea) when the drama is doing well in the more than 2 billion people international market? Besides Moon Lovers has higher CPI rating in Korea which for me has more bearing when gauging success.

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hey the ratings went up, i'm pretty sure it'll go up next week too!

the ratings thing in korea is super weird, it's mostly people around 40-60 years old watching tv, so ratings are dominated by them. most of the younger generations prefer to stream online. that's why dramas like makjang, typical sageuk, rom-com are so easy to get ratings.

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Actualy Moon Lovers is really popular on internet in Korea. If you searched korea portal site like Naver, Dc gall, Naver TVCast, blog, forum and twitter, you will notice that Moon Lovers is trending all over internet in Korea. Their preview video for Ep 12 even reached 1 million views on Naver TVCast just in 2 days!
Moon Lovers got low ratings in Korea because it's older people around 40-60 years old that contributed on TV ratings. Young people nowadays don't watch drama on TV but they watch it online or download it. So, ratings doesn't really matter at this point tho .. Just see how Moon Lovers and their actors always top CPI (Content Power Index). It proved that Moon Lovers is a popular drama.

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Exactly, like I said ratings are dominated by people age 40-60 that's why ML ratings is on the lower end. And good for them dominating online in Korea, I didn't know that, I'm glad that people are enjoying the drama. I mean if I lived in Korea as well, I probably may stream as well because it's more convenient.

I just hope the casts really do win awards at end of the year, it seems like awards are mostly based on ratings...

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Drama, why do you kill off the actress who is so talented to save the one who can't act her way out of a paper bag?

Okay, but seriously. This episode may have gotten down to some serious business here with character motivation resulting in some dire consequences, but I just kept being annoyed by IU's inability to act well enough for her character to be deserving of Court Lady Oh's self-sacrifice.

IU is a wonderfully talented singer, and in comedy and roles that require innocent, wide-eyed cuteness, she's a gem (I'll always love how wonderful she was wearing that fat suit for most of Dream High). But I secretly wonder if the reason we didn't see much of her character being put to the screws was that the director knew long before this episode that IU would be a so-so Soo showing physical anguish, so better not to show it at all.

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A bit harsh I think. I think IU's acting in here is quite cute and believable.

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I agree. I think she killed it this episode.

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Personally I think IU's acting in this episode is really good tho! I even cried so much at Haesoo and Lady Oh scene at the cave T_T

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I thought she was really good in this episode though, her scene at the cave was inspired, she really did physical anguish well, I could palpably feel her despair at that point.

But she's also been Cindy in Producers (her best role yet, imo) and that required the opposite of wide-eyed cuteness? I think she has range, but requires good directio.

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I posted this on another forum, in follow-up to my river-daughter mini-essay looking at water imagery, Korea's founding myth of Yuhwa, and the Hae (Go) Ha Jin implications. Another poster went into more detail on the water imagery, and I replied with this second mini-essay connecting Su to Lady Hae and Lady Oh. The bottom line being that it's Lady Oh's death that almost destroys the kingdom.

The founding myth at basis is the story of the child  of heaven, or sky god, meeting a water maiden, the river or sea god's daughter to found a nation.

Historical legend suggests that King Taejo did meet a water maiden, a lady from the Oh clan, while she was bathing in a stream and from their union we get Crown Prince Mu. Moon Lovers does not elaborate on this legend, however, and Lady Oh is not identified as Mu's mother.

What we get instead is the story of an early love, love denied and replacement of Queen, and a miscarriage. What we could take from this, then, is a nation founded on Taejo and Oh's union - sky god and river daughter - but left to flounder because Taejo rejects Oh and marries Queen Yoo, with her false baths and poisonous personality, who was behind the miscarriage of Oh.

Taejo in fact no longer receives the mandate of heaven - the rain belongs as much to the sky as sunlight - and only his true inheritor, blessed by a water maiden, can complete the ritual. This is Su blessing So by covering his scar so he can reveal himself as sky god inheritor and bring the rain. On some subliminal level, So knows this, knows that Su really does 'belong' to him from the moment she covers his scar. 

Su doesn't recognize the moment as So does mainly because she's been caught up in her own false start. Wook too has the potential to be king, and he marries someone from the same lineage as Su - the Hae Ha Jin clan, which I explained in my prior post, are descendants of the original sky god, river daughter founders , Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa. Lady Hae then as descendant of the river daughter could perhaps have bestowed the blessing on Wook, but he rejects her love, and the result is miscarriage. 

This is where Su comes in, on the heels of the miscarriage. She is claimed as spiritual daughter by both Lady Hae and Lady Oh, who are historically connected to the river daughter myth behind the scenes of the drama. Both have miscarried. And we shouldn't lose sight that Su was almost married off to Taejo. Su seems to have been "de"-incarnated almost as a corrective to history. Taejo first loved but abandoned his version of the water maiden, leading to the founding but eventual floundering of a unified nation when Lady Oh dies. With Su, the blessing might have reasserted itself but only if she loved the king. She rejects him. With Wook, the blessing might have reasserted itself and he become king to unify the nation, but he turns his back on her. His love is simply not strong enough to outweigh his connection to the family and subliminal...

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desire for the throne.

Loving Su, through thick or thin, loyally, faithfully with strength and free will, is the same as loving Goryeo, and confers the heavenly mandate of both sky god through Taejo and water daughter through Su if she bestows her love freely and in equal measure on So. We know this relationship is likely to happen, signifying So's eventual ascent as king for 25 years, but we don't know whether there are betrayals and a miscarriage of her own for Su. Will So betray her in the end, through plots, ambitions, feelings for Yeon Hwa, etc?  Or remain steadfast?  It is not Taejo's reign but Wang So's that establishes the foundation and longevity of the fledgeling nation, so I suspect no matter what mishaps occur, or what betrayals shake them, the love they have will prove the test of time, hopefully in the future as well after Wang So serves out his thousand year sentence for killing the monks and whatever other cruelties he inflicts. 

People might criticize this mythical take because we are not actually being shown the myth or the legends behind Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa, sky god's son and river god's daughter. But knowing the Yuhwa water maiden founding myth, knowing the water maiden legend behind Lady Oh, knowing the Lady Hae connection to the water maiden myth through her clan name, all converging in Su who is connected to water imagery time and again, has the Hae (Go) Ha Jin connection here and in the future, and is named by Lady Hae and Lady Oh as their spiritual if not literal daughter gives a lot of context to the writer's choices of symbol and theme. These myths add so much depth to the story. 

One scene this last episode might illustrate what I mean. Lady Oh asks Su to leave with her - to go home. Su rejects that until Lady Oh is about to die in her place. She pulls her to the cavern beneath the baths and the blocked up exit and starts pulling down stones. The baths are fed by the river/hot springs we saw in the first episode. The added texture I saw was two water maidens - water itself - yearning for home, the home of the river, away from the hellish constraints, dammed up water, dammed up love, of the palace. 

And now Su's about to find herself a water slave judging by the previews. Consistent imagery again. 

When Taejo chooses ambition over love, Lady Oh still remains as his support - notice how he staggers when she dies as if a support has been pulled out from under him. Or how he interprets her decision to die as her abandoning him.

All the blessing and support of the water maiden for a new kingdom die with Lady Oh. Her death signals the beginning of chaos, deaths and near disintegration of the kingdom. It's up to Su now. 

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Thank you for sharing and yes I can see the correlation between the myth and the telling of this story.

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You're welcome! I know not everyone's interested but once I started noticing the water imagery and connected that to the Goguryeo foundation myth, it's all become like a giant puzzle I began obsessing about. So I can't help but write out my conclusions about the various puzzle pieces. So glad this was clear enough. Thanks for reading!

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Thank you for your posts explaining the myths and correlation to this drama. I enjoy them very much and makes me look at the drama from another perspective Keep them coming, please :)

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I don't know about everybody else, but I am LOVING your posts - seeing the mythic underpinnings beneath this story has made it so much more interesting to me, and has made me really interested in learning more!

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Keep it up Barbrey. I love reading your interpretation abt the connections between the myth and the drama. They consistenly show up until this eps and I agree that with Lady Oh's death, the kingdom will fall and it will likely started by the event next week.

Good that So's going to rule for a long time and establish a stable kingdom. This means his love with Soo will remain strong, whatever relationship they have later.

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Thanks Dui! In this particular analysis, I really wanted to examine how the myth connects to the roles of mother/mentor that Lady Hae and Lady Oh play in the series. I'm not sure people realize how rare it is for romance genre writing to include female mentors in a heroine's journey, though heroes normally have a few. These two women have wrung more tears out of me than any of the other characters. It's really notched this drama up for me to include them. I'm looking at Queen Yoo and her perfumed baths now. The symbolism in and of itself was well explained by bebebicius33 on soompi, but I'm more concentrating on the mythical aspects. She reminds me of Ursula stealing Ariel's voice and man, but in this case Queen Yoo stealing Lady Oh's water daughter role as well as the king. Doesn't quite fit though, still thinking it through.

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I kept wondering why Lady Oh who was basically Taejo's 2nd queen Jang-hwa in history is being portrayed as a palace lady here.
It makes sense with connection to the legend. (Every king has to have their own legend eh). Even queen Yoo and her boys.

And yes, Queen Jang-hwa (Lady Oh) is Wang -mu's mother.

The Oh clan were a tremendous help to Taejo with his naval campaign to take Keumsung which is said to be the heart of later Baekje, a very important navy base.
(Taejo was a talented man both on land and at sea).
In return they maintained blood ties through marriage between Taejo and Lady Oh.
(I love how the legend makes the marriage more romantic than just a plain arranged marriage lol).

Thanks for sharing! This drama is not going to get into Goryeo's history much but this time period is fascinating to me.

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Barbrey, thank you very much for sharing this myth, So much of the storyline makes sense now......I kept wondering what the point of dragging a girl from the future to live as Hae Su really was and why the Astrologer was there as a type of mentor making sure things align with the will of the heavens....but reading this it completely makes sense now....even the laundy maid bit.....water again.....I have some questions did King Taejo understand the legend of the water maid and Lady Oh's role?...and if he does , then is he aware Su being her daughter implies another water maiden? More importantly, does 4th Prince know this legend and believes Su is the water maiden too?...that would explain another reason he will not let Su go.....Thank you Barbrey!

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Most of these legends were written later like the history. Taejo haven't heard of these legends / prophecies etc. They had some really creative writers back then lol.
(The Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms has a collection of legends from the era before. It's a fun read because they are almost believable).

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Hi Maui - thanks! No, none of this is operating on a conscious level. It is a mythic cycle that underpins the real and the characters know nothing about it, except sometimes it dictates their choices.

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Wow....thank you Barbrey. That scene where 4th Prince suddenly feels the need to tell Soo after the make up session you are mine....suddenly makes more sense...it felt like he's grateful for the makeup session but the declaration now? but if its part of a cycle as you explain and dictates his choice.,,,it makes me think subconsciously he could sense "the force" (Star Wars) in Soo.....

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+1,000,000,000! I LIVE for these posts from you, Barbrey!!!

I can't even express how much I love reading your research and analysis on the mythological aspects in Ml: SHR!!

*kowtow kowtow kowtow*

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ohemG show, what have you done to me! You know you're addicted if you spend lunch time looking/watching for BTS.

http://tvcast.naver.com/v/1141826

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Despite all the heroism that WS shows to his beloved (protecting CP and HS), I have one question in mind. Why can't he just pretend to drink just like Yeon Hwa?
But, never mind, otherwise I won't see WW betrayal, HS and WS heartfelt moments and Lady Oh sacrifices T_T

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WS can't pretend to drink the tea since 3 cups of it will totally soak the robe & it will be obvious that he was just pretending.?
Other than that, I think the absorptive capacity of silk robe is way below cotton.
If only WS robe is made of cotton..?

But your last note was the perfect answer.?

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This is why I love dramabeans. Every little thing is being analyzed in detail.
Yes, I guess this is necessary for the plot.

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WS can't pretend to drink the tea since he doesn't know that the tea was poisoned at first. He only know that it's not the tea but the tea glass. He started to know that the tea was poisoned when he drink the second cups. Of course he need to finish the rest T_T

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https://www.instagram.com/p/BK7G2MlhW2D/?taken-by=actor_jg

Joon Gi's instagram update............

I think I just die and fly to heaven...........

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*gulps loudly*

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But what could be happening.
Monday please come soon!!

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Soo is obviously not wearing any maid/court lady attire here. It looks more like something royal family would wear!!
Does it mean she would be freed and live in the palace? As So's queen or... concubine?
Shirtless So *died*
I doubt this will be on eps 12 though. Too fast, I won't like it even if it's true haha..

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I was just waking up this morning, exhausted, but then I saw LJK's post, and I was like O_O WIDE AWAKE.

I found myself blushing. Wanting to look away, but couldn't look away....and then blushing again with very impure thoughts! \^o^/

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Can you believe it? This guy saved this photo in his phone for MONTHS so that he can post it now and troll us all. Well-played, LJK, well-played.

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^^ Haha, THIS! Indeed, well played, LJK, well played.

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Look what I found :
http://www.itechpost.com/articles/34063/20160928/moon-lovers-scarlet-heart-ryeo-spoilers-wang-proposes-marriage-hae.htm

It said :
"Eight Prince Wang Wook (Kang Ha Neul) will see Hae Soo suffering but he cannot do anything because he doesn't want to oppose the King. On the other hand, Prince Wang So offers her marriage, but she seems to be still in love with Wang Wook. In Korean history, Hae Soo becomes Wang So's queen and the only mother to his children."

How come they said in history, Hae Soo will becomes Wang So's queen?
I would love to see the ending like that.... please....

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I'd love it too but unfortunately this information is wrong. Yeon Hwa becomes his queen in history and the only mother to his children.

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Yeah that's inaccurate information.

Unfortunately that scheming B becomes his queen. I hope he finds out she is the one who plotted with his mom to poison the CP and set up Soo.

Who can come back after that? She's on the road to evil and there's no turning back. I find it hard to believe that So would want to be with her, besides marrying for her political reasons but even that would be repulsive.

Shine or Go Crazy was also based on Wang So's rise to be king and even that story line was ugh.

That's what I hate about historical dramas, they adhere to the facts so and the endings are basically always sad :(

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That is incorrect. Hae-soo is a fictional character. She did not exist in Goryeo. Yeon-hwa was Wang-so's one and only queen in history.

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@swannie
not agree. you can made up micro expression. but you can not pretending understand a whole a character's psikoligi, motivation, or felt the emotion. that are the root of act.

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Agreed, there is a big difference between technical/method acting and real/raw acting.
Those with raw talents are amazing to watch. Hi Jeon Do-yeon, Song Kang-ho etc etc.

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Before I say anything about the episode, can anyone, please, tell me what song is that, the one that played when Wook killed the court lady and walked toward the prison holding the bloodied pin? Someone tell me please?!

Okay, I cried so much this episode. I was waiting to see how the show was going to change Su's feelings toward Wook and shift them toward So. The betrayal she must've felt when he gave her his back and walked away, she thought she could trust him, she thought he'd be the only person that would not change and be by her side no matter what, it was so heartbreakingly sad when she realized that he would not come to her rescue, her panicking was really hard to see.

I never really liked Wook so I thought it'll be easier to hate him once he turns his back on Su but I can't seem to hate him. He's backed in a corner, and with the way Yeon-hwa played him, he has no choice, he must be frustrated knowing that he can't do anything to save the woman he loves, he's sad too!

I've always been a So supporter and this episode made me love him more, I know he has a lot of issues but he would never hesitate to run to save the woman he loves. I loved it when he covered her with his cloak, and just stood there not saying anything, just being there for her. And Lee Jun Ki looked amazing in that scene, I'm not fond of the close-up scenes in this drama, it's too much face, but at this scene, I actually paused it at his face to take in all the beauty, OMG, he looked beautiful, too beautiful to be real!

Thanks Heads for the recap!

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I am also looking out for that song! It is not out yet!

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Im Sunhae: I didn't realize she was some famous opera singer. 'Should have known. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXQGT1RvjEo

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I do hope Secret Heart re-catapults him to super stardom again. If BOF can change life of people, scarlet heart is way way way better! plus the actor in him deserves it...

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https://instagram.com/p/BK7HqDjA4PF/

That Practice..I want to be IU so badly.???

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LOL. He said -as I understand a little - his brithday present to IU is this kiss!

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I just read someone mentioned 'The Black Cape of Courage'. I thought it's funny.

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i am speechless for this episode..bravo to all the cast and to the team. Finally, the so-soo ship will now sail and everyone should get ready as it will be a tumultuous journey. Every great love story is not without tears but it will be worth it til the end. I have faith in this pairing since day 1 and i believe they will have an explosive chemistry. Let's just enjoy the ride.

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Wow this was really a great episode. It seems the big argument is over who has more to lose between Wang So and Wang Wook. I won't necessarily make a judgement except to say that it appears that Royal relations at that time are obviously much more complex than anyone can imagine. The fact that they have different mothers and their rankings as princes already makes it such a dynamic situation.

Anyway, great acting all around. I had tears watching this show. It was hard to watch. I know that battle lines will now be drawn and alliances will be formed anew if anything were to happen to the king.

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Does anyone know the name of the song when Wang So visited Soo in the prison after she was tortured?

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They have not released it, yet, but it definitely is Lee Hi's voice.

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So this is the turning point that we were waiting for to end the love line with Soo and Wook, i found it reasonable.

The court lady story with the king was heartbreaking and I was touched to see how the king was shaking with they killed the court lady

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1) Haesoo and Wangso's scene//Taejo and Court lady Oh scene//Haesoo and Court Lady Oh scene at the cave//Last scene where Court Lady Oh died
Made me cry a river, this episode was just so full of emotions, I feel so sad now
2) Where the hell was Eun, surely he would go running to Haesoo after hearing her being executed. I thought he still lived in the palace with his new wife? (Soon Deuk, not much feeling her character) Or were they away? Both of them were supposed to attend the gathering but he returned after seeing haesoo right? Dont tell me he just like, left the palace?
Regardless, I dont think he would of any importance in the episode, even as a side character. Hes too innocent, grumpy and immature to be in this episode as much as I like him (though yeah kinda understand the guy because of what happened to him lately, but thats not much of an excuse of his immaturity)
I was just reallllyyyyy curios, where they hell did he go?
3) Finally, Chae Ryung appeared. I really though she had something with Wang Won after their small scene when she and haesoo were beaten up. Why include those gaze in the episode anyway if it meant absolutely nothing. You saw how Won treated her, I see no affection at all. Maybe Chae Ryung have something with Won but whats with his awkward look after seeing her look at him affectionately?
I know Im maybe not making any sense here but I have sooooo many questions.

Also, I wonder how did the real hae soo end up drowning in the palace baths. It could be explained if she just drowned in a river or something, but in the palace? the royal bath/pool? I dont think shes much like hajin as well because they said haesoo was cold and reserved before so I dont think shes the sneaking up to play girl or something. Im not buying the 'she spied on the princes' either.
Maybe she was holding her breathe because the princes came but drowned? Was she pushed there? Or she planned it all up until her dead body is found? Did she commit suicide? Why in the palace?
So many questions here.
And why did Wook's mother broke her promise to Myung Hee about Haesoo being married to Wook?
Why does Queen Yoo hate So so much anyway, he is still her son, if anything, she should feel guilty or in debt because she was the reason So has that scar anyway!
Ugh

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I actually have a theory that the real Hae Su committed suicide because of her feelings for Wook. She knew how wrong it was to love him. I based this on Ha Jin in Hae Su's body interactions with Wook. He seemed to already have feelings for Hae Su, and the way he noted how different she was... it was as if they already had secret encounters before and Hae Su was just so different and maybe even tried to avoid him before she killed herself.

Just a theory! I'm going to post this again on the next episode comments so I can know what everyone thinks, since we're already on the fifth page I don't think anyone would notice??

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Same thoughts. The way Wook regarded Soo during the first few episodes felt kind of intimate.

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I'm not sure about committing suicide but there is definitely something between them. I'm still wondering that why does real Hae Su go to the lake in the first place? her maid knows the reason but she didn't said anything about this.

Wook in the first few episodes pretended that he didn't know Su very well in the way like he trying to hide something.

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While I also REALLY love episode 11, it’s important to remember that episode 11 doesn’t actually stand on its own. In fact, all the previous episodes are leading to this turning point. It is a slow-build drama.

Part of the reason WHY this episode is so satisfying is because the plot moves forward in a believable fashion BASED UPON the characters we have gotten to know.

My sister, who studied film at USC, passed along what one of her professors said “Once you build the character properly, the plot will unfold naturally. Character dictates destiny.”

So, I really have to come out to support IU’s portrayal of Hae Su, Kang Han Eul’s portrayal of Wang Wook, evil Queen, evil-to-be-queen 2.0 Yeon Hwa, the rest of the cast…..and of course, LJG’s Wang So, because the characters drove the unfolding events precisely and congruently with who they are, and who they are *choosing* to be.

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This. +100000000

I am keeping my fingers crossed that the show keeps the pedal to the metal now. I'm ready, I have my stock of tissues.

Bring it on.

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Agreed. It's what I've been saying for a while.

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Haha, that's exactly what my literature professor said once, "character is destiny."

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So true! I've been re-watching the drama after watching this week's episodes and I've come to realize that every single action made by the characters (thus far) has been leading up to this very point in the story. Compared to their personalities in the beginning, So, Su, and Wook have changed so much in this amount of time.

So changed when he met Su and befriended her; Su changed after Myung Hee's death and when she was forced to enter the palace because of her defiance against the king; Wook changed when he realized his ambitions after seeing So as a potential threat (for the throne and Soo) during the rain ritual episode.

If you look at the entirety of the show, despite its flaws and issues, from it's first episode until now... it's actually quite brilliant to see all the changes and differences. :)

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I am looking for more character growth for Soo so hopefully she can become more mature after going through this ordeal.

She's lost two maternal figures, is getting used and tortured as a political pawn and her lover has abandoned her. Let's hope Lady Oh did not save her for nothing and this fire has helped to forge her character into steel.

Maybe she'll figure out that her role in Goryeo is to help So become king. Wake up, girly! He's your man! My umbrella prince!

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Reading abt roxy i realize there are major character deviations. Why

They have turned hs into a candy girl.

Whereas i love d fact dat roxy chose to do away wid relationships both times... she cud see through personality changes and nt be perpetually in love with a closed mind

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She's definitely not a "Candy" girl, I think this has just become a convenient shorthand whether it fits the character or not. We've seen Hae Soo be active in whatever she believes; she cut her own wrist to escape the kind, and here she undertook the kneeling protest herself, with no support. And there was no reason why she shouldn't be in love with Wook, considering he was nice to her and she was attracted to him. That's not being close-minded, that's just regular human emotion. This episode is the first where she's seen him and all the words he said to her tested.

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she cut her own wrist to escape the kind - - kind a stupid idea but it backup but the weird ideology but the whole scene for this is kinda stupid cause it hard to seel the marriage off by a scar, in hand?

here she undertook the kneeling protest herself - - bad idea, she is nothing for the kings, hows that gonna work? and she better asked the lady what to do to revenge, looked liked grand action but small for future gain,
what about his supposedly big clan?? why don't used that? oh that can jeopardize the pose moment,

This episode is the first where she’s seen him and all the words he said to her tested. - - bad plot direction or general diection , not phenomenal , the 2nd lead must be jerk so the female can choose the least jerk

definitely candy, just pose with strict action, then get tired and saved by male lead and her action impact nothing but we need to feel bad cause she at least tried, and we never to asked her judgement cause she is the angel, sigh.

nb: called me hater or sarcastic but the amount of commenter that overpraise this drama but don't get the criticism is so sad,

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I have to disagree with you.

1. I loved that she saved herself from having to marry the king against her will. She wasn't rescued. She actively saved herself. And while I hate that she had to go that extreme; it made complete sense to me. Otherwise, how would a mere woman get out of a royal order. Other than making herself not viable for the King.

2. Hae Su knows that she has no power. She realizes that she won't make a difference kneeling for Lady Oh. This ideology is reinforced by Baek ah. He told her she wasn't going to accomplish anything. Yet, despite that, she NEEDS to do something in her power, which is to prostrate herself and beg. It's this that is really heartbreaking. She doesn't want to be in her room crying and doing nothing. (Which ironically is a great juxtaposition to Wook). It's this that is really heartbreaking.

And I'm sorry, I didn't understand the rest of that paragraph. Who are you asking Su to ask for revenge? Queen Yoo? Yeon Hwa? What clan?

3. "bad plot direction or general diection , not phenomenal , the 2nd lead must be jerk so the female can choose the least jerk" --- I can't disagree with you more. I thought the direction was great. In fact, I was really interested in how they were going to make it so that Su and Wook would break up. I was pleasantly suprised because, while I'm ecstatic that my So ship can sail. They made Wook to be pitiful and dare I say it, human character with many, many faults, including greed. I ultimately felt sorry for Wook in what he ultimately threw away. He didn't come off as a "jerk so the female can choose."

4. "definitely candy, just pose with strict action, then get tired and saved by male lead " --- So wasn't saving her. He was quietly standing there shading her from the rain. Supporting her by her side, despite what doing that would mean to his personal safety. And that was all she needed. Btw, this was my favorite scene of the ep. God, it got me right in the feels. The word that comes to mind is "sweeping."

5. "called me hater or sarcastic but the amount of commenter that overpraise this drama but don’t get the criticism is so sad" --- I don't know if you have been reading the comments from episode 1 on. But I have to tell you, the commentators here have been very honest and critiquing the hell out of this show. We are well aware of its faults. But it's despite all of this, that we still love it.

Like I can have my opinion, you can have yours. So go ahead and hate away... I'm just so happy that this comments section has already surpassed 1000 again. People are talking about this show and I am loving it!

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I don't have to call you a hater or sarcastic, because you're entitled to your opinions. But I don't happen to agree with those opinions, and I don't think that's a sign that we don't "get" the criticism, it's just that we don't agree with the ones that you're making. And this drama has been criticized enough where it needed the criticisms, so I hardly think that's a valid point that the viewers don't get or accept criticisms?

The thing about typical second lead is that Wook was never a typical second lead. Su was genuinely in love with him, which already makes the characterization rare, because so rarely does the female lead ever genuinely fall for anyone other than the male lead. And he isn't becoming evil, he watched his mother prostrate herself before a woman they all hate, and that was what finally made him turn away, though he was going to go to Su before that. And a part of that also had to do with the throne, and we already have context for that, considering he and his family were banished, and lost favor with the king and know what it's like.

As for Su, she's far from a Candy. There isn't any scene where the princes have actively managed to save her, with the king-- I don't know why you'd think that scarring herself was stupid, when it actually worked? Nothing that the princes did; trying to rescue her, arguing on her behalf, worked. It was finally her own action which saved her. I don't see how you think the male lead "saved" her in this. Standing by her is not saving her, it's supporting her. And I don't think this show has ever contended that Su is an angel. And re: Court Lady Oh-- it wasn't about whether she could affect the king-- we'd already seen nothing could affect the king-- but in making a public protest like that, she was bringing the injustice of the execution to light, as well as standing up for what she herself believes in. I love that the scene was entirely about her and her relationship with Court Lady Oh.

Honestly, the kind of criticisms you make can be made about any drama, because they're works of fiction and X usually happens so Y can happen. It's like saying "oh, so convenient that Hwa Shin has breast cancer so Nari can be concerned about him" in Jealousy Incarnate, or "oh, how convenient that Ra On is the daughter of the rebellion that they've beenlooking for" in Moonlight.

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