2/? cont.

The Guillotine File itself is a McGuffin all because Vincenzo won’t use Han Seo against Taec and “exploit family relationships”, among other things (like apparently just not being able to come up with a more intelligent way to win). The Prosecutor’s Betrayal is not exactly unbelievable, but it doesn’t have nearly as much weight as the show wants it to have, or at least as much weight as it clearly has on Cha Young (again, her hurt at that is not a spoof scene), because the set up is lacking*, and it’s pretty much entirely meaningless as soon as Vincenzo reveals he has the File (*the Prosecutor exists as a plot device, we’re not really made to care about him at all beyond a few snarky throwbacks.)
Another example might be going from Vincenzo saying he’ll kill Pabo (Taec) when he finds him, to saying no he wants to take everything from him in some way instead, and then back to just going on a much more apt and expected Mafia killing spree when they kill his mother. The fact of the matter is, if Vincenzo actually acted like the Mafiosa he is, the show would’ve ended at like episode 4.
And unfortunately, this show has a 20-episode count, of nearly 30 hrs run time, and I don’t know whose decision that was, but it severely hampers the story, which is pretty clearly either being written to FILL that episode count (hence all the filler and redundancy!), or is written by someone who didn’t actually know how to write a well thought out story around his idea and concept for that many episodes from the beginning, and that’s why our Villains are weak, and things don’t make sense. (Or it’s both.)

See the scene where Evil Lawyer-nim reveals Vinnie’s mother to Taec- it’s not a “Switch off your brain and laugh” moment. It’s an important part of the story. And for me to be invested in the events that follow it, or lead up to it, as the show wants me to be (given the ending of episode 16, and how they’ve established regret and family as themes throughout the show), when these moments lack continuity or not as much thought as other elements, it makes me wonder what the end goal or point of this show is at all.
Because these moments are not supposed to be ridiculous, parodies, or spoofs. They’re actually the foundational moments of the story; without them, why should I care about anyone in this show? Does it want me to? Then why doesn’t it seem to care about its own story?

3/3 cont.

What does Vincenzo want to be, is what I find myself asking. Does it want to be just a comedy? Does it want to be a satire? Does it want to be an action flick? Does it want to be a serious anti hero character driven drama? Does it want to be smart? Or does it want to be silly?
Because I think as it stands right now, none of its elements, because it has all of these, are strong enough to stand on their own, and there is a severe imbalance to them.
If they were stronger, and more consistent, it would be easier for me to enjoy the ridiculous and the funny stuff, because I would know what was clearly stylistically deliberate was backed up by a strong story and strong writing. But, it’s not.

It’s not like it’s something like Meteor Garden 2018 or Tale of the Nine Tailed, to use two very different but equally cursed shows, both of which I love; it’s not so bad it’s good, it’s not crack held together with miracle string cheese that you enjoy against all possible better reasoning otherwise.
I think that large parts of Vincenzo otherwise are done extremely well. And I ENJOY large parts of it! And it’s because of this that I feel more frustrated at it lacking in key story fundamentals. I want it to be a better version of itself, because I want to LIKE IT MORE. I don’t want to be annoyed at it!

But I do get annoyed, about every second week, and I wish I had more people to be sarcastic at it with lol.

-end essay, nobody actually asked for pfft xox

@sicarius you make so much sense oof!!

Essay we didn’t ask for but enjoyed reading even if we are not as annoyed xD! You can continue to post your annoyed rants because I’ll read them and agree with parts of them whilst also enjoying the show (and forgiving these plot holes lol)

I agree with @bluewaters20

Sic, all of this makes complete sense. I haven’t reached far enough to pass any kind of judgement really other than (a) it’s a riot; (b) the Italian – um – needs some work; and (c) the episodes are really long. But your lens is very useful for me going forward!

Thanks so much for sharing this. You are right.
I’ve already said the plot doesn’t make sense, because I don’t understand any character’s motivations. Yet, I decided to look aside, because I’m enjoying all the absurdity in it, and in fact I don’t like when the plot makes advances out of the blue or we don’t get much information to explain why, and thus so many things feel like plot device. Even so, I’m willing to look aside, because I’m having fun. If I had all that you’ve mentioned we would have a perfect drama as Forest of Secrets (only perfect drama I’ve watched).

Thank you for your essay as always Sic. It’s very thorough.

As you knew from my previous comment, I didn’t make it past ep2, the reason of which you also already knew cause we talked about it perhaps in another thread or someone’s post. This case is different from The King imo because from the very moment TK started, I knew that it was supposed to be a fantasy; this, on the other hand, started very realistically as the lead was portrayed to be a consultant to a mafia group in Italy and he did many things there. AND he was smart and decisive and seemed to possess all the qualities that he should have. Than, bam! He came back to SK and all his brain had gone somehow. He got robbed by two robbers .. so the question is who actually Vinnie is supposed to be? To make a comedy out of him does the show have to make him less clever? I had this question in mind then so I stopped watching.

I’d say that apart from the parts I haven’t watched, I completely agree with your takes on the rest. I think the problem here is that for me to enjoy a show, I have to be able to ‘trust’ it -will it be magical (ok let’s watch TK cause I’m in the mood for a fairy tale) or a completely mess (*looks at you Sisy*) but for something I can’t put my finger on what exactly the purpose of the show is or where it is going, it becomes frustration because well.. it makes me confused.

I respect other Beans who enjoy the show though. And I also think you enjoyed it much more than I did.

*bobs a cute curtsy*

oh yeah btw you guys, @eazal, @mmmmm, @pickleddragon @bluewaters20
I meant to reply and expand my thoughts farther on this but didn’t have the energy, but in any case thank you for commenting and appreciating my rant anyway. Perhaps none of you will be surprised that upon this show ending, I like it a lot less than everybody else appears to. Lol.

@sicarius That ending was definitely a cop-out, and definitely a bummer that KDY’s was the character picked. But honestly, I saw something like that coming. Personally, I thought, in true anti-hero style, Vincenzo and/or Chayong ought to have been the one/s bumped off, and that is an ending I’d actually have been happy with. Just desserts etc. But maybe they’re holding out for a possible second edition. Maybe.

The violence in the last two eps was way more graphic and gory than what the show had set us up for. But I kept reminding myself that this is a show about a mafioso; of course, it’ll be violent.

Despite the ending, despite the macguffins, despite the predictable double and triple crossings, it is still the best show of 2021 so far, for me. (shows what kdramaworld has served up so far – boo).

@pickleddragon – (cc: @eazal, @mmmmm, @bluewaters20 and @hebang cos I think you’d like to read this)

Wait I should clarify- it’s not specifically the ending I don’t like- it’s the entire show… *ahem*
And you’ve finally given me an excuse to just GO OFF about it so… incoming.

The ending was merely the result of 20 episodes of a show that has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning.

1) I didn’t really care that Han Seo died, because they didn’t spend enough time on his redemption, him changing sides and his bromance with Vincenzo- none of which were bad things, but all of which happened too late for his death and the actions leading up to it, to have the impact they should’ve. I remember being frustrated at the show before episode 8! that Vinnie wasn’t using the obvious route to Taec through his brother- both in finding out Pabo’s true identity and in bringing him down- but instead of being smart about it, they kept changing V’s motivations to drag it out.†

2) I also didn’t care as much as I could’ve because Vincenzo should’ve brought a gun to that fight; there is absolutely no reason why he shouldn’t have and none of that had to happen like it did. † It was ultimately stupid and yet another piece of plot filler, except for KDY dying and choosing the “right thing” eventually- which was predictable and could’ve happened in a different way if it had to happen at all.

3) I’m gonna be brutally honest here- I am not sure why people thought Vin and CY would be the ones to either go to prison or eventually die.
I admit, I thought they might kill them off for a bit, but that was mainly because I wasn’t sure how stupid the finale was willing to go.
Ultimately this wasn’t actually that kind of show.

First- they didn’t even bother to develop Vincenzo’s obvious remorse at whatever that incident in his nightmares was. They didn’t even end up showing us what actually happened there.
The most we got was him talking, in a flashback⁴ to the Buddhist monks, in a rushed confession of sorts, claiming he would never be able to leave the life, doesn’t want to, and can’t to the right thing, but will ultimately live in regret for forever. To which the Monk responds in such an incredibly shallow and lame way, I am still not sure if that scene was supposed to be a joke or not. And the show decides that this is enough of a moral resolution to any of the questions it might have talked about. (news flash: it’s not.)
They also never developed CY’s internal conflict, or lack thereof, with V’s methods properly.

Second- their entire point was this idea of defeating the villains by being the villain. Except that IMO, other than yaknow, V being a mafia member and having no qualms (minus one) at killing people, and other than every time they TOLD US THAT (through extremely un nuanced dialogue- way to feed us the message why don’t you *yes ending monologue, I’m looking at you*)- V was very much just the hero. In fact, at one point, he even gets called that, and he refers to themselves as vigilantes, typically heroic characters. And because they didn’t see fit to actually delve into any moral complexity in the show short of a few throw away lines (in fact, this actually got worse, because it was a lot stronger in this area at the beginning, namely when CY and V would like bond over… whether or not he’s killed anyone or not *coughs*), despite them saying so and clearly very much wishing he was, Vincenzo is not a true villain. And he is still ultimately just the hero of the story.

Third- even if the Villain vs Villain theme was done better, EVEN IF that was developed and written well, by their own rules, there are no good guys. So who is going to put V and CY in jail? Another villain? Then you would just have an endless cycle of villainy nonsense, and truth and righteousness would become meaningless. You could have them fall prey to the consequences of their own actions and end up destroying themselves in the process of removing the antagonists, but this never set out to be LOTR or Extracurricular- it doesn’t have the foundation for that.

Fourth- And so, because the show did not press into its more complex elements- because it did not develop any of its characters or themes to their potential depth- it could not have meted out just desserts upon CY and V, be it death or imprisonment, and still be satisfying if it did, or even necessarily make sense. Because it didn’t have the set up for it. Yes it could’ve been done, but it didn’t even bother to explore its own moral complexities, and thus any morally righteous ending would’ve fallen flat.

Fifth- I do not think the action genre necessarily needs or benefits from killing off its main characters. Especially not what is supposed to be an action comedy. And so ultimately, despite this show also having an extended genre identity crisis for most of its run, I think tonally it would not have fit or made sense for them to do that.

Killing V off is stupid with the story and character writing you currently have.
Jailing V is redundant with your current thematic set up.

For a better a better resolution regarding everything you have to go back to the very beginning and figure out where everything went wrong.

And so we come to…

† Vincenzo is not set up to lose.
This is perhaps the essence of this show’s greatest flaw.
The problem of power in conflict in storytelling.

You have protagonists, they have motivations, they have a goal, and something stopping them from getting there; conflict arrives out of these obstacles, big and small. The antagonist can be the obstacle, but here they happen to kind of be both the obstacle and the goal. The plot is how to get reach the goal.

You want your protagonist to be smart and badass, as ruthless as they are cunning, intelligent, good at fighting, and sexy to boot. (not necessary, but always appreciated). You establish them as so, at the very beginning of your show.

But now, you have an issue. Or several issues actually. The first is that your MC is smart and badass, but you can’t have a story without conflict, and creating conflict that will be naturally balanced against your MC’s power levels is really hard, when your MC is really powerful. Any losses the MC faces along the way to the end goal have to be of a believable weight- something that would be realistic for them to lose without compromising the integrity of their established character. Again, this is really hard, especially when you’ve set up your MC such.

The second is that you have 20 episodes to fill. 20 episodes, at an hr and a half each. The reason for this being so doesn’t really matter at this point. You have 26-30 hrs of runtime to fill, and a potentially already overpowered protagonist, and you have no idea how to manufacture conflict for that long a run time, in a believable way that isn’t going to compromise your story at one or several points along the way.

because in reality, your MC, the way you set them up, would’ve reached their goal, that is the death of the antagonists, within four episodes. Six maximum.

The villains, the source of all conflict, which in an ideal world would be balanced against the MC in a way that the conflict is genuine but the end result still organic, are never really any match for Vincenzo, and never really were. And even if they are shown to be, it is at the expense of Vincenzo’s entire set up.

Your third problem is that you’ve overestimated yourself and your storytelling skills, and are trying to do too many genres at once, and have no idea how to balance them. So not only is your MC too overpowered and you keep compromising both his writing and the entire fabric of your story because of that, you actually committed the crime of compromisation in episode one, because you wanted to be funny, and aimed to be at least partially satire.

So now, you not only have your very story concept working against you, but also your comedy.
And from there on out, every other genre you attempt to integrate into the fabric of your narrative. Your structural veracity has already been jeopardised, your tonal shifts become jarring and in-cohesive, leading to you losing the majority your emotional weight.

And so, despite the fact that you’ve already rendered anything you might be trying to achieve meaningless, you have to manufacture conflict (and emotion) for the entirety of your show’s run, which you decide to do so by forgoing having your MC have any consistent motivation at all, thus, once again, as if you hadn’t already doomed it enough, compromising your story’s integrity.

And almost every other issue the show has, with the exception of its moral worldview issues (from which arguably everything comes anyway), stems from there.

.
.
.

It feels redundant to talk about anything else after that, but we will anyway, bearing in mind everything I just said.

4) I found the pacing and structure of the show by the time its last quarter rolled around to be very tiresome. The flashback reveal became overdone and lost its technical impact. Scenes and information were added when supposedly needed through these flashbacks in an attempt to tie up mainly thematic loose ends, but imo failed to do so in any satisfying way- mainly because of reasons I have already mentioned- but also because this is a film technique which really should not be abused, and arguably works best in the movie format, and not in a 26-30 hr tv show that already shot itself in the foot before it even began.
On top of that again, I can only assume in an attempt to reach the final runtime, during the whole show the director spent an excruciatingly long time on certain scenes, and dragging them out beyond all necessity demanded by the story or the medium. This seems to be partly stylistic, but also felt mostly like filler. And yet for all that runtime, it still failed to fully develop its characters or themes.

5) I found the Violence at the end to ultimately be amusing, despite the level of gruesomeness.
In episode 17/18 I found myself not really caring about Taecyeon’s inevitable demise, despite the fact that that’s what the show had been gearing towards for its entire run. I just didn’t care. I was never repulsed or overly angry at his character, he was too cartoonish and dramatic to have any intended gravity, any supposedly horrific acts he committed never packed as much weight as they should’ve; for aforementioned reasons, or they happened because the plot wanted them to happen in order to reach runtime, and they often happened in contrived ways.
And combined with everything above, when it came time for him and CMH to die, and they were there trying to appeal to either Vinnie’s villainy, or apparently his better nature, I could do nothing but laugh.

At the way we got here, at the needless sacrifices of run time and sanity on the way, the lack of weight behind either of them as villains, the absurdity of their last lines, the lack of nuance in any moral message the show had to say, at the drama of it all- in the end it was ironically not even particularly satisfying for the show to reach its supposed goal.

All of this I think comes back to again, the fundamental flaws of the show. You spent 20 episodes getting here and for what. I ended up feeling that the entire show was quite pointless really, and should’ve at max been 12 episodes.
.
.
.

And finally, although I’m glad everyone else seems to have enjoyed themselves far more than I have, I don’t think I can honestly say in conclusion I actually LIKED the show as a whole, nor can I say it’s very good. Although having just looked back through the shows I started or watched this year, I can understand why it is your favourite thus far. I’m inclined to think that’s not really saying very much though.

I should’ve put this at the beginning but here is a google doc link if you can’t be bothered reading it all here in this messy formatting (it probably has less typos): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e6yBH301K46aZ7tPly56-47b5DQGdoFHr0XrlgFPz34/edit?usp=sharing

Peace~

Having read this sequence and your follow up, I can say that you’ve analyzed it far better than I have, and also that is why I ended up dropping it. I was thinking about catching up when I read the reference to “Kill It” (and the two essays here) and lost my interest. Sigh.

As you said, the drama that could and should have been!

Sic, I totally agree with everything you wrote. Your point are perfect and make total sense, yet… I’m totally sold on the drama.
I know, I know, you made a perfect speech.
But I can’t help it.
(still, you are right!).

@eazal 😂😂😂😂😂 we like what we like, don’t we. I know I have my share of shows that aren’t technically good but I still like them. Alas it’s not this, 😂 oops! (thank you for validating me anyway though kekeke)

@sicarius I agree with you and I agree with @eazal
I will remember this as a show I enjoyed almost through and through, despite everything you point out as being very valid flaws 😀
It was just sheer entertainment, a mishmash at that, and didn’t know what it was doing, but gosh, it got so many of us addicted and kept so many of us hooked.

@pickleddragon And in that case- to get more perspectives, and because I am genuinely curious- what about the show for you is the most compelling and entertaining aspect, the part that kept you hooked?

@sicarius I think the key for me was that I did not engage with this with any degree of depth. From the start, with that vineyard arson scene, it felt like a Bollywood film, and if you’ve grown up on a diet of those, you’ll know that genre fidelity and plot coherence are not their strong points. So I did not pay attention to those aspects at all. Bollywood is not great cinema at all (most of it), but knows how to entertain people. A few beautiful people who can also act, the right ensemble, great music, some laughs, some tears, some violence, some edge-of-seat tension… voila, you have a “masala entertainer”. This totally falls into that category, IMO. That’s how and why I consumed this drama with great interest.

Also, as you note, this is a relative assessment. I’m still hoping for the great kdrama of 2021 to come along. If and until that comes, this is the top of the pile for me for now.

@pickleddragon
Ahhhh so it’s really a Bollywood film- everything makes sense now hahaha.

Logging in after weeks to 17 notifications was unexpected but fun. Having gotten done with back to back deadlines only yesterday, I put the last four episodes on hold which in hindsight might not have been a very good decision because now that I have watched it, I am disappointed to say the least.
@sicarius, as always you have hit the nail with your analysis, enjoyed reading it especially because you articulated some of my thoughts so well!
The charm of this drama, for me, was the stress relieving craziness, and like how @pickleddragon said, the mish mash of sheer entertainment and the use of Bollywood masala recipe, but the lack of it in the last four episodes gave me more time to think about the many plot holes (the increased amount of gruesome in the last two episode was also a turnoff). Sigh, if only they had stuck to the ridiculousness. I wish I didn’t have to put it on hold when it was live airing because the long break is partly be blamed for dialing down my excitement. Nevertheless, it will definitely be getting a bean for all the crazy laughs it gave me in the midst of a very stressful semester (the pig blood and the courtroom antics of the first half of the drama still crack me up xD)