THIS IS PART 5 OF 5
HOSTAGE-TAKING AND KIDNAPPING POST-TREATY, AN MANCHU “CONFUCIANISM”, MANCHU INVASIONS VS. IMJIN
« In addition, as part of the surrender terms, senior-ranking men of the Westerner faction and their families, along with three princes, were taken to Manchuria and held hostage while other prisoners were married into Manchu clans. This hostage-taking ensured Chosŏn obedience to the Manchu. The Manchu used a different lens to view these demands. Hung Taiji dictated that the Korean king order “all the families of ministers inside and outside the court … [to] marry ours to make our good relationship solid.” Many children of leading bureaucrats were kidnapped and taken to Manchuria as hostages. Many of them suffered tremendously. Some died in Manchu prisons. […]
To ensure compliance, on this second invasion the Manchu demanded the dispatch of the crown prince and his entourage to Mukden, and Hung Taiji ordered marriage alliances between the Manchu and Chosŏn elite families. Even court minsters were required to enter into these alliances as part of the surrender terms. On the one hand, such demands appear humiliating, as the subjugated people had to provide marriage partners to the victorious Manchu. On the other, in Korea, this pattern of intermarriage had deeper historical roots from well before the 1630s. Marriage was an important element of alliance building among Northeast Asian and Eurasian tribes and polities. From Western Europe to East Asia, ruling members intermarried across large geographical areas. In the case of Korea, Silla and Koryŏ founders took daughters to help placate defeated regions. The marriage alliance between Kublai Khan of the Mongol Yuan and the Korean Koryŏ dynasty brought the two ruling courts closer together, guaranteeing cooperation and safety, especially regarding military expansion into China. […]
The Manchu once again raised the importance of marriage alliances to the Chosŏn. The relationship between the Manchu and Korea did not develop as deeply as in the Mongol era, when the crown prince married the daughter of the emperor, lived in Beijing with the imperial family, and raised children there until called to Korea upon the death of his father, the king. Four centuries later, marriage alliances remained a custom for securing peace in Northeast Asia, but the pattern of those alliances shifted away from the royal family to other leading families in Seoul. The daughter of one elite yangban was chosen as a concubine for Hung Taiji. She, and her father, helped relieve some of the rice tax tribute the Qing demanded of the Chosŏn. From the Manchu perspective, what Na and others perceived as humiliating surrender rituals, including the dispatch of the crown prince and other powerful officials, were practical acts that would solidify strong relations between the two countries. […]
Chosŏn may have claimed greater Confucian legitimacy based on its lengthy history of engaging with the Confucian Classics (these were books like Mencius, Great Learning, Analects of Confucius, and other works on philosophy and moral values that China, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam adopted for scholarship and governance), but the Manchu, through their interpreters and letter writers, proved an equal of Korea in their written responses. The war on the battlefield, fought also through the exchange of letters, proved challenging for Korea to surmount. The Manchu were as powerful with the brush as they were with the sword.
While this was a major military defeat for the Chosŏn, in retrospect, the invasion of 1636–1637 was not as militarily damaging and saw less material destruction than the Japanese invasions during the Imjin War in 1592–1598 […] The Manchu wars, on the other hand, were so rapid and were conducted with such a small and nimble military— which moved quickly in and out of Korea— that Chosŏn appeared to have been struck by lightning. Unlike the Japanese in the Imjin War, the Manchu stopped once they captured the Chosŏn capital, signaling defeat.
These rapid invasions severed Korean contact with the Ming on both occasions. After the first oath of allegiance was broken, the reprisal of the second invasion was more consequential. All of the princes in line for the throne and the sons of leading officials were transported back with the Manchu as hostages. They were released later, but by then these people had established connections and lines of communication with the Manchu, learned their customs and politics, and sometimes even the language. To some, this was a positive result and a way to further communications with the Manchu, but others thought that these hostages were too closely aligned with the Manchu and could pose a threat. »
Having just finished watching episode 12 of « 연인 » (English : My Dearest, literally : Yeon-in = Lover) I realised another important reason why I mostly, almost only, want to watch this K-Drama now — above and beyond all other Korean dramas and Western films.
Yes, this sageuk shows the (to me culturally and timewise foreign) circumstances and developments of the three scourges of the human agenda : famine, plague and war. [ Note : This is how Yuval Noah Harari describes it in his book « Homo Deus » with section headings such as « The biological poverty line » (famine) , « Invisible Armadas » (plague) and « Breaking the Law of the Jungle » (war). ] Here it is early agricultural Joseon depending on its farming produce, with the bow-and-arrow-and-sword « blitzkrieg » of the Byeonjgahoran (Second Manchu Invasion) —plus a few Western canons—, then humilitated, starved and exploited by the winner, the rising Qing, who are in the process of overthrowing the Ming Empire and who, most likely, only withdrew from Joseon so quickly because of an outbreak of smallpox (and to continue their advance on the Ming Empire of course).
These seem to be the historical facts … So, … might I congratulate myself internally by saying : Am I not the lucky one … ? This is certainly true, if only unconsciously. That’s why we watch films, read stories etc. — we will always compare to our own situation. Human beings are essentially storytelling beasts, forever comparing their experiences to what they hear from past, present and (imagined) future. The ones who have lived a nightmare, however, will, most often, not watch the fictionalisation of that nightmare. Only us, who do not know it, will watch the « faction » (fact + fiction). Experiences of Jewish people after the Second World War or experiences of the survivors of the atom bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the so called hibakusha (被爆者), have shown this. They lived to tell of their experiences —by the grace of God or life, or by luck or fate—, and these experiences were even more horrendous than any fictionalised story can tell. Yet they told their stories so that we care and do not repeat humanity’s mistakes. Episodes 11 and 12 of « My Dearest » are about the aftermath of the Byeonjgahoran, in particular the staggering numbers of prisoner of wars and their stories. (as intended by the scriptwriter) Gil-Chae becomes an unintentional prisoner-of-war (in a situation where right and wrong are clearly suspended), and hence moves the storytelling forward to Qing. For the tragic story of the royal captive in Qing’s hands, the Crown Prince, Jang Hyeon becomes the spokesperson to the viewer. (see background for that in interview with the scriptwriter I posted before)
As Jang Hyeon says in episode 8 [4’53—5’00 mn] and explains at length in episode 12 of « My Dearest » (to Sohyeon, the crown prince) when asked why he followed the latter to Shenyang (romanised transliteration of Chinese name) aka Mukden (romanised transliteration of Manchu name) aka Simyang (romanised transliteration of Korean name) : « You asked me why I came to Simyang. I was curious about your fate. I thought you would end up surrendering. […] But you were very strong. You did great, Your Highness.» And he clarifies the key point about this personal tragedy for the crown prince (when latter insists that HE was not able to protect the King of Joseon) : « There is no law that says a child must protect his father. It is the father who must protect. » — a rather chillingly true statement considering the prevailing doctrines of Korean neoconfucianism. [26’47 — 27’14 mn]
THAT IS ASPECT NUMBER ONE : Storytelling of the three scourges on the human agenda in one event (the Second Manchu invasion and the aftermath), and the validity and depth of this storytelling to make me care. Next question then : what do I do with this caring ? Do I learn something by it ? Ultimately, this is what a Jewish person surviving the concentration camps or a Japanese hibakusha surviving the atom bombs will want — or a Joseon woman having survived deportation and rape. And it is the point of good storytelling as well. This is not just « eye candy » for a bored or voiceless 21st century human. What is that voice I need to reconnect to telling me? There are interesting, and, in my view, spot-on anwers to that question which C.G. Jung has left us as tools.
ASPECT NUMBER TWO :
Yes, the series production appears to be outstanding in several aspects and might, I venture to say, become a benchmark for filming and producing sageuks in the future.
The production team uses the latest cinematography to great effect (drones, sparingly but effectively, amongst other elements); sound and music are « in tune » with the story’s advancement or repetition of themes or setting the tone (no puns intented); the Manchu/Qing portrayal (bare the armour or weaponry apparently) seems to be authentic ; the lighting overall and effects of moonlight/daylight and location is adapted to the mood and the content the story wants to select ; the amount of close-ups or half shots or wider shots to portray emotions and the people who have them make excellent use of the actors’ and actresses’ skills —and not only the leads (even if, apparently, sometimes haphazardlessly put together in the editing room) ; the locations where filming took place are well chosen, although it remains to be seen how Shenyang and other Chinese places will be filmed, if they are portrayed ; does anyone know where that building which serves as Shenyang Hall (i.e. the Crown Prince’s residence in Shenyang) is in South Korea? And last but not least, the selection of costumes and props to, again, serve the story and the mood of the scenes — not only the various fans which Jang Hyeon uses throughout when he is in Joseon-dandy-type mode, but the colourful clothing of Gil Chae when she is young and unmarried and carefree, also the winter court in Namhan Mountain Fortress during the invasion … etc. etc. There are many, many more examples.
While there is quite a bit of commentary noise about the lead actors/actresses skills (and their acting skills appear to be truly excellent, even if they portray in personalities who would be about a decade younger than they are as actor/actress, at least in the beginning), the whole casting even for smallish side roles is extremely well done, I find. Everyone makes me care about this story. It is, I would say, an ensemble story.
WHICH BRINGS ME TO MY ORIGINAL POINT : what makes me so engaged in a sageuk portrayal of an event thousands of miles away from my own culture, and taking place almost 600 years ago ? What was my « new » discovery after watching episode 12?
Part of the answer I gave already : clearly, humanity hasn’t learned a bit. I could leave it there and move on. But no. This is not past, it is present — for me. It takes me a while every day to come back to my own reality, and I discover I ponder on the topics portrayed throughout the day, apparently even in my dreams, at times.
My new discovery was how elaborate « My Dearest » weaves historic timeline with fictional and factual progression. It is artful. (See further down for details) It becomes the portrayal of archetypal themes crossing space and time … to me.
In his excellent book « The Anatomy of Genres. How Story Forms Explain the Way the World Works » John Truby elaborates on how a love story as « the art of happiness » is the highest form of storytelling (“highest” is my somewhat insufficient term, but I haven’t got a better one ; I see an analogy to Abraham Maslow’s pyramide of needs).
Now, I finally also better understand the points the scriptwriter was making in her interview with Cine 21 on March 1, 2023. (The interview was published in four parts on March 11, 2023.)
[ SEE SEPARATE ENTRY FOR THE INTERVIEW ]
What I noticed after viewing episode 12 is how adept writer and production team are at weaving the storytelling in the episodes together while moving back and forth in the historic timeline and also showing the inner progression (or yearning stillstand as it may be) of the love of the two protagonists. For the viewer the time which passes between events seems sometimes instantaneous, when in fact it is not.
As Hwang Jin-young said in HER INTERVIEW : she seems to have completely internalised the historic facts as they are known, filling in gaps with some intelligent extrapolation, and weaving the dramatic story true to the historic timeline yet showing the progression (or not, as it may be) of the LOVE STORY as the ART OF HAPPINESS. What will happen to the portrayal of the historic development at the Joseon court and in Shenyang (or Beijing respectively) remains to be seen. Given the presentation so far, it will be a nuanced and intelligent, I should think.
THE HISTORIC TIMELINE OF THE LAST 4 EPS [see next fanwall post]
The following was meant to be part of another article for my Fanwall. But it is too long to insert, so I am posting it separately. The other article will follow later.
Now, I finally also better understand the points the scriptwriter was making in her interview with Cine 21 on March 1, 2023. (The interview was published in four parts on March 11, 2023.)
THE INTERVIEW WITH WRITER HWANG JIN-YOUNG
Hwang Jin-young explained her motivation for writing (so far only) sageuk or (in a better romanised form) period dramas, sidaegeug— 시대극.
« It is attractive that period dramas naturally reveal the decisive emotions and the human figure driven to the edge of the cliff. […] I often think that this work is fun when intense human emotions of wanting to escape from the shackles of social status and social restrictions are expressed. That’s what I am attracted to : looking into human nature and archetypes in dramatic situations rather than calmly unraveling trivial points of everyday life. » — Here we have it … Jung’s archetypes …
When the interviewer asked her, why she had chosen a particular historic period over another, Hwang Jin-young explained how her four sidaegeug (all produced by MBC) came about. Generally, she is looking « for writing in a way that adds imagination to the historical information gap.»
« My Dearest » came about as pondering on a remark Lee Byeong-hoon, a former director of MBC, had made. That the story of Crown Prince Sohyeon and Kangbin is very interesting, but too tragic to touch. Even historical drama experts had said that.
Yet, there are many materials that are difficult to solve —something also true for the Byeongja Horan—, she explains, and «in the case of 연인, I deliberately thought of the movie Gone with the Wind a lot.»
« I believed that if the conflict, hope, and beauty in the movie were superimposed on the situation of the Byeongjahoran era, it would not seem difficult, and the story of the people who lived through that era could be told convincingly. » — Here we have it — her —as she calls it— superimposition of David O’Selznick’s Gone with the Wind and the American Civil War onto the Byeongja Horan.
When writing a drama, she explains, she wants to communicate to the audience with an interesting story. « For a story to be interesting, it needs a probable connection, and that link needs to be specific to be convincing. »
She had researched the historic data on and around the Byeongja Horan meticulously in order to increase the logical probability of a story. She incorporates all information as his own through a total of three steps.
« If you see it once, you won’t understand what it means at once, so I read it through twice, and from the third time I underline the information I need. And I transfer all the materials to a folder, which becomes my own warehouse. After completing these steps, when writing a screenplay, you will be able to develop your own thoughts without referring to each material individually again. »
« I don’t try to show a person with a specific tone of my own. […] Injo prepares his own way to deal with the Qing Dynasty, which is becoming powerful, but nevertheless he becomes the king of a defeated country. But all of a sudden, [..] I was wondering if I could criticize [him] not being ‘extraordinary’ just because he couldn’t get through the situation in an extraordinary way. Of course, I have no intention of sympathizing with Injo, but I hoped that viewers would be able to look into Injo’s broken heart in more detail. So, how much even the wicked resemble ‘me’ and ‘we’. That is also my personal value. In fact, recently, many studies have been conducted that contain this perspective of re-evaluation. So I tend to show the emotions and circumstances of the villain in my work. Wouldn’t it be too unrealistic for someone to be entirely evil? The moment it doesn’t feel real, the immersion in the story goes down. Everyone is three-dimensional. »
« My Dearest is a drama that starts with the Byeongja Horan and shows Joseon after the Byeongja Horan. In addition to Janghyeon and Gilchae’s love, I’m trying to shed light on the stories of people who were taken prisoner. The number of people taken prisoner is staggering, but there is not much food. In order to add to the enjoyment of historical dramas, director Kim Seong-yong pays attention to even the smallest details such as sets, props, and costumes.»
The interviewer asked her about her way of writing in an poetic format, combining lyricism with tragedy.
« For me, the lyrical moments that coexist with the tragic moments feel very beautiful. So I often try to embody that beauty in my script. Also, when composing a drama, it feels fun to intersect conflicting emotions, so for example, putting lyricism behind a grim scene, or light-heartedness behind a tragic one. In order for a battle or strategy to look intense, it needs to have lyricism to stand out more. When the two extremes harmonize, the story seems richer. » — In my view she managed that extremely well with the scenes in the Qing war camp, as an example.
Hwang Jin-young’s views on the relationship of story (scriptwriter) and production (the PD and all team members) are also very visible in « My Dearest » I feel :
« I think the script needs to give accurate information. After all, the essence of content is the story. Each writer has a different inclination, but I tend to explain the atmosphere and acting tone that I envisioned in my head in as much detail as possible in the script. Looking at the script, I think the writer should provide a more specific script so that each team can draw a common picture, so that the shooting can proceed more smoothly.»
One useful thing to note (but you might already be aware of it) is that in Korean “시“ is pronounced as “shi” and not as ‘si’ so the romanisation is entirely wrong. This distortion is why I use a modified romanisation if and when I find it necessary to use it at all in order to get as close as possible to the actual Korean pronunciation.
ps – Another example which I often see on this cite is when the romanised “maknae” is used for “ 막내” which is incorrect. The Korean pronunciation is “mangneh” because it does not exactly follow what is written in Hangeul. Just one of the many such distortions.
Thanks! No I was not aware of it. I realised that the topic of romanisation is a really complicated one … but the only useable table I found so far is the one on Wikipedia EN with the Unicode characters. So I have created an Excel spreadsheet in which I copy/paste the characters I find and then write the romanised forms under it. Then I put it into Google translate and get an (often) so-so translation. For short texts I can create this more easily, but for along text this is a huge task. If I select the audio button on Google Translate to hear the pronounciation, yes I notice sometimes that the voicing of the sound is different from what I would have done with it in romanising it.
Also, there is this other, Cune Reischauer system, which academics use, but which I find pretty cumbersome to write/read …. So your way is probably better, but for that one needs to understand the language in the first place, probably, right?
I am impressed by your scholarly approach and analysis so please don’t think I was criticising you. The Wikipedia and other Internet sources are using romanisation because unfortunately the problem goes way back to when Korean letters were translated’ to English by the first Westerners who publicised them outside Korea as such. Not only they couldn’t properly approximate many of the sounds, they also didn’t understand how many pronunciation rules Korean has (visavis how the proximity of certain letters to each other in two syllables can chang their pronunciation) now commonly criticised as highly inaccurate and misleading by a number of good native speaking Korean teachers who teach online.
I know, @dncingemma. I did not take your comments as criticisms in any way. Instead, I find it most helpful to have someone knwledgeabe to talk to about the Korean language. As you might have noticed, I love languages! Using language is our first point of contact in communication in many, many situations. And I like the sound of the Korean language (whereas I do not like the sound of Chinese for example ; I always think people have potatoes in their mouth when they talk.) — I signed up for a Korean language learning course via the Internet, but so far I have not had ANY time for this … So for now, I am trying to understand the structure of this language. You saying that there are many different pronounciation rules is, for example, a new learning experience for me right now (which I cherish).
I can distinguish, most often, an American from a Canadian from a British from a Scottish, an Australian or a New Zealander speaking English ; I can distinguish a person from France speaking French and a person from one of the African countries or the North African countries speaking French or a French Swiss speaking French ; I can distinguish Spanish spoken by a Spaniard from Spain, or a Columbian or Chilean. And of course, as German, I can distinguish a German (even regional accents) speaking German, from an Austrian or a Swiss German.
The other day I overheard an Asian person speaking, and I could recognize that it was Korean! I turned around, and indeed … yipee, I thought. I recognise spoken Japanese although I don’t understand a lot.
It bugs me somewhat that people often are so negligent when it comes to other cultures’ most important tool. I would like to understand Korean, not because I think I might be travelling to the country often now, but because I recognise that language forms mind and matter. In that way, for example, the polite form which young Koreans and foreigners find so difficult (apparently) is something very important in my mind for the Korean culture, the Korean way of life AND the mind of a Korean person. That historic Korean dramas use the personal name in their subtitled translations when a person is addressed by another is a mistake in my view. (Rakuten viki does not do this most of the time though, but Netflix and Kocowa do). Same for contemporary K-dramas. I recognise that Koreans often address another by their functional title, also in comemporary settings. I think that is a very valid and good idea since it shows straight away the relationship which exists between these two people; there is no personal relationship as yet. Just as an example. I like that because Western languages have ALL lost this, so far as I can tell.
Thank you for this. Really interesting. One concern that I have is the valorisation of “Gone with the Wind” as GWTW glorified slavery and it is rightly derided by many. I wish the scriptwriter hadn’t just included their admiring views but also had acknowledged the underlying horrors of slavery.
I feel she did not NOT do that intentionally. My sense was that she is aware of the problematic part of GWTW but she only picked the love story evolvement of the movie leaving that particular AMERICAN HISTORIC aside as it was of no consequence for her as Korean. Maybe it was just a question of knowledge, meaning she wanted such a female character as her protagonist, with a male protagonist matching a roguish Rhett Butler but « in a Korean way » and for the 1600s. Her knowledge of such a character from film or literature might have been limited. And I, too, must admit, from the top of my head I would not know any myself.
Just thinking : if my assumption below is correct, i.e. the writer had focused on the love story part with a female lead who is such a strong women coming from her dainty spoiled Southern Belle background (hunkydory country yangban who turns men’s heads in the Korean version), then Gil Chae’s kidnapping and being dragged to Qing and almost abused makes even more sense. It shows the strength of her survival character (like Scarlet’s). — I also feel, the writer is starting to digress a bit from the GWTW parallel (except that Gil Chae’s husband will probably die like Frank Kennedy). — Also the Jang Hyeon is now already pretty different from the Rhett Butler, I feel. He is a survivor and he is kind and he knows the ways of the world … but that’s where the comparisons end for me. Rhett Butler —in the end— left his Scarlet with that famous line : frankly, my dear, I don’t care a damn … — and she thinks of Tara, i.e. the land (as the innermost source of her being). I don’t think that’s Gil Chae’s way … she is not linked to the earth in this way, but I do not know at the moment what the writer might choose instead. That short scene in EP 1 where Jang Hyeon (in a Korean scholar’s attire by the way) is facing a crowd of men with pitch forks and swords etc. … and he repeats this one sentence … asking (Gil Chae, most likely) if she hears the sound of flowers … I feel it will have something to do with this. But currently no idea what.
By the way, it’s now the second time I heard from a Korean source that Jang-Hyun was in fact a historic person. I thought he was entirely fictional, but not so, apparently. The fictional bit is just his superhuman abilities, as in being an expert swordsman/fighter, a deft diplomat and realist advising the crown prince and a lover of the century …
Ladies and gents, new contribution: I just found this playlist for the interpretation of the latest video clip offerings for « My Dearest » Part 2. And different from the other Korean YouTubers, this person uses an AI to translate into English. The translation comes out okay, I find. He analyses the latest MBC teasers, so this is good. Someone else had posted the last teaser on Dramabeans, so that link it out there already. There are also a couple of new character posters for Part 2. Here the link to the playlist : https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmrpoGuNCzjxvemNQXdv048Pmn4bPrFl_
Second thing : I saw a cute 45 or so seconds promo clip for a fun-looking MBC programme on the 9th at 10:45 PM, also for « Yeonin » Part 2 … with the lead actress amongst others, at least if I understood this correctly. If there is anyone in Korea and fancies taping it … ? Here is the link for the clip : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpG9E1GO0Xs
On your fan wall, you should see a button in the top right corner of each post: three light grey dots, vertically. Clicking on it opens a context menu per post, and from there, you can select “Delete”.
Hope this helps!
With « My Dearest » we see a very moving love story in historic times, yet the wider « reality » of Joseon before, during and after the Manchu invasion and the overthrow of the Ming Empire via Joseon Korea is left very much in the background with only snippets of factual highlights, I’d say. So, one needs to know a lot to understand motivations, I find.
The geopolitics between the 3 countries set this drama apart from any sageuks I’ve seen, so it’s a big treat. I can see myself coming back to MY DEAREST many times. My PC is cluttered with historical articles, studies, research, videos, etc. I’m enjoying it so much!
To add to that previous comment … after 1989 the then German government under Chancellor Kohl made an assessment, how expensive unification would get … some years later, it was revealed that they reported it vastly under their actual estimates at that time. So, like war, unification of two materially disparate landmasses, where one wants to be at the same « level » as the other, is horrendously expensive. Which is why, West Germans (a lot of them) today do not get, why East Germans « complain » …
Little anecdote : I just wanted to do some grocery shopping at the local health food store (Alnatura), to take a break from working on the computer and on K-Drama stuff … (chuckle) while attempting to enter through the automatic doors of the store surprise, surprise … they would not open ; it was closed. Which is when I recalled that today is a public holiday in Germany, and at that, the so called « Reunification Day » … as in re-unification of West Germany and East Germany, now called Germany, using the official name of the Western part, Federal Republic of Germany! Shows how much West Germans remember this, which by East German standards (at least to date), is not reunification day but annexation day … — My sense is that North Koreans WILL feel something similar, if it would ever come to a unification … I had previously posted a documentary recommendation by ARTE on that topic … but of course, that is not accessible for beanies outside Germany or France.
I would find it interesting to know HOW many and whch K-Dramas had actually dealt with the topic of the divided country … there is of course » Crash Landing on You » … but there are surely others.
Thanks, @Healer‘s. I saw a lot of good things about this drama. So I might look into that a bit deeper. The overall genre was, at first sight, not quite my cup of tea. But I have been prejudiced uselessly before … so I’ll see. Thanks again.
Also, two more which I can recall are: “Move to Heaven” – somewhat tangentially – touches on the hard scrabble lives of the North Korean defectors. And, “Curtain Call” – which has a ridiculous central conceit – also has a very melo subplot focusing on the division and the tragic consequences.
Thanks, @dncingemma, I had started to watch Curtain Call, but stopped in between. I’ll look into the other one. I wonder if this topic is just too close to the heart to be able to be fictionalised well in a dramatic way …
I just saw the comments thread in this News item on Dramabeans https://www.dramabeans.com/2023/10/news-bites-october-2-2023/
re the 2’55 mn clip from MBC’s official site to « My Dearest » ( comment no. 2).
It seems to me that we are many who watch this show, but are not fluent in Korean. Translating the few words in this clip reminded me of a comment a German translator of Shakespeare made a few years ago. I am paraphrasing : Every translation is always also interpretation of meaning, so it is never a one-to-one job. His translation of Shakespeare’s works (an endeavour of over a decade if I remember correctly) is applauded by people fluent in both languages.
I did a fair amount of translations from and into English (German mostly) in my time (factual texts, not literature), and I remember the comments of my employers that they always have to plan for more space in their layouts for the German language, as German is longer. For fun I had also started to put the three language versions of Matthieu Ricard’s « Altruisme » in one document (a hefty book which took him five years to write), and guess what : German is longer, some of the beautifully written French portions of Ricard’s original text were somewhat vandalised in English (too literal), and some of the clarity of both French original and English translation get lost or sound cumbersome when reading the German text. … the beauties of a good translation … That’s probably why Yuval Noah Harari writes his books in English too, then gets the English version checked and corrected by a native speaker he trusts, and discusses the alterations … (He is Israeli, so Hebrew is his native language, but he studied in Oxford). — Now to my point about Korean.
For Korean it seems to be true too, what I learnt from Japanese : the syllables as such often convey a bare-bone wording, but the MEANING is often in-between the syllables, or even outside, not expressed in the wording as such. For a poetic form like Haiku this is particularly noticeable.
Soompi’s translation as quoted by @kiara is a good example, it seems to me (obviously done by a native speaker). It’s a script for television, so these are words meant to be spoken, the sentences are short, sometimes only a couple of words. The Soompi translator did clearly interpretative work on it, knowing the sageuk well.
( Side comment: By they way, this is also where I want to applaude the often very good and increasingly better translation work the viki volunteers do … I appreciate that they give interpretative notes or comments at times. Cultural meaning and background can only be explained with that. The productions streamed on Netflix (or probably Disney Plus too) lack this totally which I deplore. I should think that was also one of the major reasons for the criticisms re « Squid Game » (which I read ; I have not seen the show yet).
So, here are the words in Hangul, and Soompi’s translation the next line. Jang-Hyun starts speaking, knowing that Gil-Chae is listening:
상하지.
It’s strange, isn’t it? [ interpretative]
그리고 그 달이 밝은 날은.
후에 그대와 함께 있으니.
On days like these where the moon shines bright, I’m always with you. [interpretative]
These are the few words I wanted to quote to show the INTERPRETATIVE WORK required even for a few words, and when it enhances what was said … Also, it is correct in my view, that the moon serves as a symbol in their relationship throughout the sageuk. So the translator’s interpetation seems to be spot on.
Later on, the English expression « to be cast aside » is a more poetic form of what was said, and captures the deeper gentleness between these two souls better than the original matter-of-factish statement « you left me behind » does — he clearly felt cast aside and as Gil-Chae said at the end of ep. 10, if she would have know what her decision did to him too … but as someone said in the comments section to the recaps, she was caught between a rock and a hard place at that point in time.
Nowadays, I am trying to get hold of a Korean subtitle version for every K-Drama I like (and will watch again), best if it is the SDH version. Then, at some point later on, I put them in a Excel spreadsheet and compare the versions … Luckily, I got hold of the SDH Korean version for « My Dearest », the first part. So eventually I will use that as my studying material … becoming one of the many people who are learning Korean with K-Drama!
I meant to mention this but forgot that if you listen carefully, he actually says 이상하지 which translates pretty closely to “isn’t it strange” using the informal “ji” suffix for confirming something you believe but posed as a qn.
I’ve been studying it properly for the last two years but I have a long way to go as yet. I understand a fair bit but my vocabulary is still limited by the standards of my other languages so it is a joyful and consuming hobby for me. I love it so much. But it isn’t easy as yet.
And, thank you kindly for the headsup. I will listen to them and see how much I can understand!
Hiya, my thought for the day … I am currently also working on 13 or 17 hours of audio files of an in-depth conversation between two Jungian analysts, Marion Woodman and Robert A. Johnson (she Canadian, he American). I am a big fan of Robert A. Johnson (he actually met C. G. Jung in person in the 1920s at Bollingen castle). Both have passed now, but these conversations are eye-opening. They held them over several days in 1998. Both were in their 70s then, Johnson was Woodman’s senior by, I believe, 7 years. — I am mentioning this here, because even in the first session I found several elements highly relevant for a Korean historical drama as interpretational help. And since « Dramabeans » is about « Deconstructing K-Drama » that, in my view, might be a very relevant look onto the topic.
One of Johnson’s big themes was the « wounded feeling function » ; they talk about the Feminine and the Masculine, C. G. Jung’s typology etc. etc. — I want to share their thoughts about this as they apply here, and will do so at some point. Currently I am still tidying up the transcripts and trying to set up headers and sub-headers so as to have a kind of TOC at some point.
Lastly, what I noticed while doing this : the storytelling in this sageuk is less via words but more so via visuals, such as facial expressions, colour schemes, and the usage of sound, so for example, too, the pacing of speech. Feelings are substantiated via musical themes. In this sequence for example, there happens what I call the « Gil-Chae / Jang-Hyun » tragical musical theme at a telling moment. It is extremely well done, in my view.
Also, for the ones’ who do not want to go through 8 pages of jpeg’s to get to the spoken word ( so to speak ) here is what Jang-Hyun actually says in the 2’55 mn short clip from MBC :
Not bad.
And on a day when the moon is so bright.
Because afterwards I get to be with.
[ literal translation : Afterwards with you together because. ] [ Word sequence lasts 13 seconds. ]
[ Gil-Chae pulls her hand off the door handle.]
« I don’t know where it went wrong … »
« Shouldn’t I have left you behind and gone to Namhansanseong Fortress? »
« Shouldn’t I have left you behind and come to Shenyang at that time ? »
« Or … [ time stamp 00:02:10]
[ at ] that time … [ time stamp 00:02:15 ]
when you abandoned me . »
[ time stamp 00:02:25-27 ]
Thank you for the appreciation, @Elinor! I do this mostly for myself too, because I love to understand nuances. K-dramas offer a foreign world to me which I would like to understand in depth. A lot goes via language of course, but given that Indic scripts as well as CJK scripts (and Arabic at that too) are all different to what I grew up with, it requires extra steps to get a language. I understood that when I started to learn Japanese. And then there are the different customs, particular history to a place etc.
Korean history has an interesting similarity to German history in a way, in that it is a country, rich in culture, where neighbours always thought they needed to subdue it somehow. Or, at times, Korea was the aggressor as well. In Germany, for centuries, it was between the Russian Empire and the French Empire. Famously, France was an « arch enemy » for a thousand years after Charlemagne. While the British went for the seas and their Victorian Empire, Germany remained a largely landbound empire. Joseon Korea, it seems, was too busy with its factional strives over centuries and had no interest in expansion, but wanted to live quietly by itself. Apparently there is a Korean saying which goes : if two wales move, a squid has to pay attention. Well, Germany never was a squid ( to keep up the metaphor ) but it could also get squeezed out, as happened after the Second World War, with the partition into the Western and the Eastern (communist) state.
Recently I noticed, that this partition story is also a story for Koreans. However, as I have learned too, the « Korean answer » will certainly be different to the German one from 1989.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 6:56 AM
THIS IS PART 5 OF 5
HOSTAGE-TAKING AND KIDNAPPING POST-TREATY, AN MANCHU “CONFUCIANISM”, MANCHU INVASIONS VS. IMJIN
« In addition, as part of the surrender terms, senior-ranking men of the Westerner faction and their families, along with three princes, were taken to Manchuria and held hostage while other prisoners were married into Manchu clans. This hostage-taking ensured Chosŏn obedience to the Manchu. The Manchu used a different lens to view these demands. Hung Taiji dictated that the Korean king order “all the families of ministers inside and outside the court … [to] marry ours to make our good relationship solid.” Many children of leading bureaucrats were kidnapped and taken to Manchuria as hostages. Many of them suffered tremendously. Some died in Manchu prisons. […]
To ensure compliance, on this second invasion the Manchu demanded the dispatch of the crown prince and his entourage to Mukden, and Hung Taiji ordered marriage alliances between the Manchu and Chosŏn elite families. Even court minsters were required to enter into these alliances as part of the surrender terms. On the one hand, such demands appear humiliating, as the subjugated people had to provide marriage partners to the victorious Manchu. On the other, in Korea, this pattern of intermarriage had deeper historical roots from well before the 1630s. Marriage was an important element of alliance building among Northeast Asian and Eurasian tribes and polities. From Western Europe to East Asia, ruling members intermarried across large geographical areas. In the case of Korea, Silla and Koryŏ founders took daughters to help placate defeated regions. The marriage alliance between Kublai Khan of the Mongol Yuan and the Korean Koryŏ dynasty brought the two ruling courts closer together, guaranteeing cooperation and safety, especially regarding military expansion into China. […]
The Manchu once again raised the importance of marriage alliances to the Chosŏn. The relationship between the Manchu and Korea did not develop as deeply as in the Mongol era, when the crown prince married the daughter of the emperor, lived in Beijing with the imperial family, and raised children there until called to Korea upon the death of his father, the king. Four centuries later, marriage alliances remained a custom for securing peace in Northeast Asia, but the pattern of those alliances shifted away from the royal family to other leading families in Seoul. The daughter of one elite yangban was chosen as a concubine for Hung Taiji. She, and her father, helped relieve some of the rice tax tribute the Qing demanded of the Chosŏn. From the Manchu perspective, what Na and others perceived as humiliating surrender rituals, including the dispatch of the crown prince and other powerful officials, were practical acts that would solidify strong relations between the two countries. […]
Chosŏn may have claimed greater Confucian legitimacy based on its lengthy history of engaging with the Confucian Classics (these were books like Mencius, Great Learning, Analects of Confucius, and other works on philosophy and moral values that China, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam adopted for scholarship and governance), but the Manchu, through their interpreters and letter writers, proved an equal of Korea in their written responses. The war on the battlefield, fought also through the exchange of letters, proved challenging for Korea to surmount. The Manchu were as powerful with the brush as they were with the sword.
While this was a major military defeat for the Chosŏn, in retrospect, the invasion of 1636–1637 was not as militarily damaging and saw less material destruction than the Japanese invasions during the Imjin War in 1592–1598 […] The Manchu wars, on the other hand, were so rapid and were conducted with such a small and nimble military— which moved quickly in and out of Korea— that Chosŏn appeared to have been struck by lightning. Unlike the Japanese in the Imjin War, the Manchu stopped once they captured the Chosŏn capital, signaling defeat.
These rapid invasions severed Korean contact with the Ming on both occasions. After the first oath of allegiance was broken, the reprisal of the second invasion was more consequential. All of the princes in line for the throne and the sons of leading officials were transported back with the Manchu as hostages. They were released later, but by then these people had established connections and lines of communication with the Manchu, learned their customs and politics, and sometimes even the language. To some, this was a positive result and a way to further communications with the Manchu, but others thought that these hostages were too closely aligned with the Manchu and could pose a threat. »
angelshadows50
October 15, 2023 at 10:42 AM
Having just finished watching episode 12 of « 연인 » (English : My Dearest, literally : Yeon-in = Lover) I realised another important reason why I mostly, almost only, want to watch this K-Drama now — above and beyond all other Korean dramas and Western films.
Yes, this sageuk shows the (to me culturally and timewise foreign) circumstances and developments of the three scourges of the human agenda : famine, plague and war. [ Note : This is how Yuval Noah Harari describes it in his book « Homo Deus » with section headings such as « The biological poverty line » (famine) , « Invisible Armadas » (plague) and « Breaking the Law of the Jungle » (war). ] Here it is early agricultural Joseon depending on its farming produce, with the bow-and-arrow-and-sword « blitzkrieg » of the Byeonjgahoran (Second Manchu Invasion) —plus a few Western canons—, then humilitated, starved and exploited by the winner, the rising Qing, who are in the process of overthrowing the Ming Empire and who, most likely, only withdrew from Joseon so quickly because of an outbreak of smallpox (and to continue their advance on the Ming Empire of course).
These seem to be the historical facts … So, … might I congratulate myself internally by saying : Am I not the lucky one … ? This is certainly true, if only unconsciously. That’s why we watch films, read stories etc. — we will always compare to our own situation. Human beings are essentially storytelling beasts, forever comparing their experiences to what they hear from past, present and (imagined) future. The ones who have lived a nightmare, however, will, most often, not watch the fictionalisation of that nightmare. Only us, who do not know it, will watch the « faction » (fact + fiction). Experiences of Jewish people after the Second World War or experiences of the survivors of the atom bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the so called hibakusha (被爆者), have shown this. They lived to tell of their experiences —by the grace of God or life, or by luck or fate—, and these experiences were even more horrendous than any fictionalised story can tell. Yet they told their stories so that we care and do not repeat humanity’s mistakes. Episodes 11 and 12 of « My Dearest » are about the aftermath of the Byeonjgahoran, in particular the staggering numbers of prisoner of wars and their stories. (as intended by the scriptwriter) Gil-Chae becomes an unintentional prisoner-of-war (in a situation where right and wrong are clearly suspended), and hence moves the storytelling forward to Qing. For the tragic story of the royal captive in Qing’s hands, the Crown Prince, Jang Hyeon becomes the spokesperson to the viewer. (see background for that in interview with the scriptwriter I posted before)
As Jang Hyeon says in episode 8 [4’53—5’00 mn] and explains at length in episode 12 of « My Dearest » (to Sohyeon, the crown prince) when asked why he followed the latter to Shenyang (romanised transliteration of Chinese name) aka Mukden (romanised transliteration of Manchu name) aka Simyang (romanised transliteration of Korean name) : « You asked me why I came to Simyang. I was curious about your fate. I thought you would end up surrendering. […] But you were very strong. You did great, Your Highness.» And he clarifies the key point about this personal tragedy for the crown prince (when latter insists that HE was not able to protect the King of Joseon) : « There is no law that says a child must protect his father. It is the father who must protect. » — a rather chillingly true statement considering the prevailing doctrines of Korean neoconfucianism. [26’47 — 27’14 mn]
THAT IS ASPECT NUMBER ONE : Storytelling of the three scourges on the human agenda in one event (the Second Manchu invasion and the aftermath), and the validity and depth of this storytelling to make me care. Next question then : what do I do with this caring ? Do I learn something by it ? Ultimately, this is what a Jewish person surviving the concentration camps or a Japanese hibakusha surviving the atom bombs will want — or a Joseon woman having survived deportation and rape. And it is the point of good storytelling as well. This is not just « eye candy » for a bored or voiceless 21st century human. What is that voice I need to reconnect to telling me? There are interesting, and, in my view, spot-on anwers to that question which C.G. Jung has left us as tools.
ASPECT NUMBER TWO :
Yes, the series production appears to be outstanding in several aspects and might, I venture to say, become a benchmark for filming and producing sageuks in the future.
The production team uses the latest cinematography to great effect (drones, sparingly but effectively, amongst other elements); sound and music are « in tune » with the story’s advancement or repetition of themes or setting the tone (no puns intented); the Manchu/Qing portrayal (bare the armour or weaponry apparently) seems to be authentic ; the lighting overall and effects of moonlight/daylight and location is adapted to the mood and the content the story wants to select ; the amount of close-ups or half shots or wider shots to portray emotions and the people who have them make excellent use of the actors’ and actresses’ skills —and not only the leads (even if, apparently, sometimes haphazardlessly put together in the editing room) ; the locations where filming took place are well chosen, although it remains to be seen how Shenyang and other Chinese places will be filmed, if they are portrayed ; does anyone know where that building which serves as Shenyang Hall (i.e. the Crown Prince’s residence in Shenyang) is in South Korea? And last but not least, the selection of costumes and props to, again, serve the story and the mood of the scenes — not only the various fans which Jang Hyeon uses throughout when he is in Joseon-dandy-type mode, but the colourful clothing of Gil Chae when she is young and unmarried and carefree, also the winter court in Namhan Mountain Fortress during the invasion … etc. etc. There are many, many more examples.
While there is quite a bit of commentary noise about the lead actors/actresses skills (and their acting skills appear to be truly excellent, even if they portray in personalities who would be about a decade younger than they are as actor/actress, at least in the beginning), the whole casting even for smallish side roles is extremely well done, I find. Everyone makes me care about this story. It is, I would say, an ensemble story.
WHICH BRINGS ME TO MY ORIGINAL POINT : what makes me so engaged in a sageuk portrayal of an event thousands of miles away from my own culture, and taking place almost 600 years ago ? What was my « new » discovery after watching episode 12?
Part of the answer I gave already : clearly, humanity hasn’t learned a bit. I could leave it there and move on. But no. This is not past, it is present — for me. It takes me a while every day to come back to my own reality, and I discover I ponder on the topics portrayed throughout the day, apparently even in my dreams, at times.
My new discovery was how elaborate « My Dearest » weaves historic timeline with fictional and factual progression. It is artful. (See further down for details) It becomes the portrayal of archetypal themes crossing space and time … to me.
In his excellent book « The Anatomy of Genres. How Story Forms Explain the Way the World Works » John Truby elaborates on how a love story as « the art of happiness » is the highest form of storytelling (“highest” is my somewhat insufficient term, but I haven’t got a better one ; I see an analogy to Abraham Maslow’s pyramide of needs).
Now, I finally also better understand the points the scriptwriter was making in her interview with Cine 21 on March 1, 2023. (The interview was published in four parts on March 11, 2023.)
[ SEE SEPARATE ENTRY FOR THE INTERVIEW ]
What I noticed after viewing episode 12 is how adept writer and production team are at weaving the storytelling in the episodes together while moving back and forth in the historic timeline and also showing the inner progression (or yearning stillstand as it may be) of the love of the two protagonists. For the viewer the time which passes between events seems sometimes instantaneous, when in fact it is not.
As Hwang Jin-young said in HER INTERVIEW : she seems to have completely internalised the historic facts as they are known, filling in gaps with some intelligent extrapolation, and weaving the dramatic story true to the historic timeline yet showing the progression (or not, as it may be) of the LOVE STORY as the ART OF HAPPINESS. What will happen to the portrayal of the historic development at the Joseon court and in Shenyang (or Beijing respectively) remains to be seen. Given the presentation so far, it will be a nuanced and intelligent, I should think.
THE HISTORIC TIMELINE OF THE LAST 4 EPS [see next fanwall post]
HopefulRomantic 🦋 Tigermoth 🦆❤️🦆
October 15, 2023 at 10:56 AM
I really enjoyed reading this analysis!
angelshadows50
October 15, 2023 at 1:17 PM
Thank you for this kind feedback! 🙂
angelshadows50
October 15, 2023 at 5:57 AM
The following was meant to be part of another article for my Fanwall. But it is too long to insert, so I am posting it separately. The other article will follow later.
Now, I finally also better understand the points the scriptwriter was making in her interview with Cine 21 on March 1, 2023. (The interview was published in four parts on March 11, 2023.)
THE INTERVIEW WITH WRITER HWANG JIN-YOUNG
Hwang Jin-young explained her motivation for writing (so far only) sageuk or (in a better romanised form) period dramas, sidaegeug— 시대극.
« It is attractive that period dramas naturally reveal the decisive emotions and the human figure driven to the edge of the cliff. […] I often think that this work is fun when intense human emotions of wanting to escape from the shackles of social status and social restrictions are expressed. That’s what I am attracted to : looking into human nature and archetypes in dramatic situations rather than calmly unraveling trivial points of everyday life. » — Here we have it … Jung’s archetypes …
When the interviewer asked her, why she had chosen a particular historic period over another, Hwang Jin-young explained how her four sidaegeug (all produced by MBC) came about. Generally, she is looking « for writing in a way that adds imagination to the historical information gap.»
« My Dearest » came about as pondering on a remark Lee Byeong-hoon, a former director of MBC, had made. That the story of Crown Prince Sohyeon and Kangbin is very interesting, but too tragic to touch. Even historical drama experts had said that.
Yet, there are many materials that are difficult to solve —something also true for the Byeongja Horan—, she explains, and «in the case of 연인, I deliberately thought of the movie Gone with the Wind a lot.»
« I believed that if the conflict, hope, and beauty in the movie were superimposed on the situation of the Byeongjahoran era, it would not seem difficult, and the story of the people who lived through that era could be told convincingly. » — Here we have it — her —as she calls it— superimposition of David O’Selznick’s Gone with the Wind and the American Civil War onto the Byeongja Horan.
When writing a drama, she explains, she wants to communicate to the audience with an interesting story. « For a story to be interesting, it needs a probable connection, and that link needs to be specific to be convincing. »
She had researched the historic data on and around the Byeongja Horan meticulously in order to increase the logical probability of a story. She incorporates all information as his own through a total of three steps.
« If you see it once, you won’t understand what it means at once, so I read it through twice, and from the third time I underline the information I need. And I transfer all the materials to a folder, which becomes my own warehouse. After completing these steps, when writing a screenplay, you will be able to develop your own thoughts without referring to each material individually again. »
« I don’t try to show a person with a specific tone of my own. […] Injo prepares his own way to deal with the Qing Dynasty, which is becoming powerful, but nevertheless he becomes the king of a defeated country. But all of a sudden, [..] I was wondering if I could criticize [him] not being ‘extraordinary’ just because he couldn’t get through the situation in an extraordinary way. Of course, I have no intention of sympathizing with Injo, but I hoped that viewers would be able to look into Injo’s broken heart in more detail. So, how much even the wicked resemble ‘me’ and ‘we’. That is also my personal value. In fact, recently, many studies have been conducted that contain this perspective of re-evaluation. So I tend to show the emotions and circumstances of the villain in my work. Wouldn’t it be too unrealistic for someone to be entirely evil? The moment it doesn’t feel real, the immersion in the story goes down. Everyone is three-dimensional. »
« My Dearest is a drama that starts with the Byeongja Horan and shows Joseon after the Byeongja Horan. In addition to Janghyeon and Gilchae’s love, I’m trying to shed light on the stories of people who were taken prisoner. The number of people taken prisoner is staggering, but there is not much food. In order to add to the enjoyment of historical dramas, director Kim Seong-yong pays attention to even the smallest details such as sets, props, and costumes.»
The interviewer asked her about her way of writing in an poetic format, combining lyricism with tragedy.
« For me, the lyrical moments that coexist with the tragic moments feel very beautiful. So I often try to embody that beauty in my script. Also, when composing a drama, it feels fun to intersect conflicting emotions, so for example, putting lyricism behind a grim scene, or light-heartedness behind a tragic one. In order for a battle or strategy to look intense, it needs to have lyricism to stand out more. When the two extremes harmonize, the story seems richer. » — In my view she managed that extremely well with the scenes in the Qing war camp, as an example.
Hwang Jin-young’s views on the relationship of story (scriptwriter) and production (the PD and all team members) are also very visible in « My Dearest » I feel :
« I think the script needs to give accurate information. After all, the essence of content is the story. Each writer has a different inclination, but I tend to explain the atmosphere and acting tone that I envisioned in my head in as much detail as possible in the script. Looking at the script, I think the writer should provide a more specific script so that each team can draw a common picture, so that the shooting can proceed more smoothly.»
DancingEmma
October 16, 2023 at 10:41 PM
One useful thing to note (but you might already be aware of it) is that in Korean “시“ is pronounced as “shi” and not as ‘si’ so the romanisation is entirely wrong. This distortion is why I use a modified romanisation if and when I find it necessary to use it at all in order to get as close as possible to the actual Korean pronunciation.
ps – Another example which I often see on this cite is when the romanised “maknae” is used for “ 막내” which is incorrect. The Korean pronunciation is “mangneh” because it does not exactly follow what is written in Hangeul. Just one of the many such distortions.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 11:59 PM
Thanks! No I was not aware of it. I realised that the topic of romanisation is a really complicated one … but the only useable table I found so far is the one on Wikipedia EN with the Unicode characters. So I have created an Excel spreadsheet in which I copy/paste the characters I find and then write the romanised forms under it. Then I put it into Google translate and get an (often) so-so translation. For short texts I can create this more easily, but for along text this is a huge task. If I select the audio button on Google Translate to hear the pronounciation, yes I notice sometimes that the voicing of the sound is different from what I would have done with it in romanising it.
Also, there is this other, Cune Reischauer system, which academics use, but which I find pretty cumbersome to write/read …. So your way is probably better, but for that one needs to understand the language in the first place, probably, right?
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 12:04 AM
I’ll post an example on the fantail
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 12:11 AM
*fanwall
DancingEmma
October 17, 2023 at 12:17 AM
I love ‘fantail’! It is a great typo/text replacement!
DancingEmma
October 17, 2023 at 12:14 AM
I am impressed by your scholarly approach and analysis so please don’t think I was criticising you. The Wikipedia and other Internet sources are using romanisation because unfortunately the problem goes way back to when Korean letters were translated’ to English by the first Westerners who publicised them outside Korea as such. Not only they couldn’t properly approximate many of the sounds, they also didn’t understand how many pronunciation rules Korean has (visavis how the proximity of certain letters to each other in two syllables can chang their pronunciation) now commonly criticised as highly inaccurate and misleading by a number of good native speaking Korean teachers who teach online.
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 9:21 AM
I know, @dncingemma. I did not take your comments as criticisms in any way. Instead, I find it most helpful to have someone knwledgeabe to talk to about the Korean language. As you might have noticed, I love languages! Using language is our first point of contact in communication in many, many situations. And I like the sound of the Korean language (whereas I do not like the sound of Chinese for example ; I always think people have potatoes in their mouth when they talk.) — I signed up for a Korean language learning course via the Internet, but so far I have not had ANY time for this … So for now, I am trying to understand the structure of this language. You saying that there are many different pronounciation rules is, for example, a new learning experience for me right now (which I cherish).
I can distinguish, most often, an American from a Canadian from a British from a Scottish, an Australian or a New Zealander speaking English ; I can distinguish a person from France speaking French and a person from one of the African countries or the North African countries speaking French or a French Swiss speaking French ; I can distinguish Spanish spoken by a Spaniard from Spain, or a Columbian or Chilean. And of course, as German, I can distinguish a German (even regional accents) speaking German, from an Austrian or a Swiss German.
The other day I overheard an Asian person speaking, and I could recognize that it was Korean! I turned around, and indeed … yipee, I thought. I recognise spoken Japanese although I don’t understand a lot.
It bugs me somewhat that people often are so negligent when it comes to other cultures’ most important tool. I would like to understand Korean, not because I think I might be travelling to the country often now, but because I recognise that language forms mind and matter. In that way, for example, the polite form which young Koreans and foreigners find so difficult (apparently) is something very important in my mind for the Korean culture, the Korean way of life AND the mind of a Korean person. That historic Korean dramas use the personal name in their subtitled translations when a person is addressed by another is a mistake in my view. (Rakuten viki does not do this most of the time though, but Netflix and Kocowa do). Same for contemporary K-dramas. I recognise that Koreans often address another by their functional title, also in comemporary settings. I think that is a very valid and good idea since it shows straight away the relationship which exists between these two people; there is no personal relationship as yet. Just as an example. I like that because Western languages have ALL lost this, so far as I can tell.
DancingEmma
October 17, 2023 at 12:37 AM
Thank you for this. Really interesting. One concern that I have is the valorisation of “Gone with the Wind” as GWTW glorified slavery and it is rightly derided by many. I wish the scriptwriter hadn’t just included their admiring views but also had acknowledged the underlying horrors of slavery.
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 8:26 AM
I feel she did not NOT do that intentionally. My sense was that she is aware of the problematic part of GWTW but she only picked the love story evolvement of the movie leaving that particular AMERICAN HISTORIC aside as it was of no consequence for her as Korean. Maybe it was just a question of knowledge, meaning she wanted such a female character as her protagonist, with a male protagonist matching a roguish Rhett Butler but « in a Korean way » and for the 1600s. Her knowledge of such a character from film or literature might have been limited. And I, too, must admit, from the top of my head I would not know any myself.
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 8:44 AM
Just thinking : if my assumption below is correct, i.e. the writer had focused on the love story part with a female lead who is such a strong women coming from her dainty spoiled Southern Belle background (hunkydory country yangban who turns men’s heads in the Korean version), then Gil Chae’s kidnapping and being dragged to Qing and almost abused makes even more sense. It shows the strength of her survival character (like Scarlet’s). — I also feel, the writer is starting to digress a bit from the GWTW parallel (except that Gil Chae’s husband will probably die like Frank Kennedy). — Also the Jang Hyeon is now already pretty different from the Rhett Butler, I feel. He is a survivor and he is kind and he knows the ways of the world … but that’s where the comparisons end for me. Rhett Butler —in the end— left his Scarlet with that famous line : frankly, my dear, I don’t care a damn … — and she thinks of Tara, i.e. the land (as the innermost source of her being). I don’t think that’s Gil Chae’s way … she is not linked to the earth in this way, but I do not know at the moment what the writer might choose instead. That short scene in EP 1 where Jang Hyeon (in a Korean scholar’s attire by the way) is facing a crowd of men with pitch forks and swords etc. … and he repeats this one sentence … asking (Gil Chae, most likely) if she hears the sound of flowers … I feel it will have something to do with this. But currently no idea what.
angelshadows50
October 15, 2023 at 5:57 AM
Damn, it doesn’t like the triangle brackets because they are the container holders for html tags … so here it comes again, without these …
angelshadows50
October 15, 2023 at 5:53 AM
Sorry, the easier to read formatting in the last entry was lost since I still don’t know how to use html tags …
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 2:31 PM
By the way, it’s now the second time I heard from a Korean source that Jang-Hyun was in fact a historic person. I thought he was entirely fictional, but not so, apparently. The fictional bit is just his superhuman abilities, as in being an expert swordsman/fighter, a deft diplomat and realist advising the crown prince and a lover of the century …
kiara
October 5, 2023 at 3:19 PM
Based loosely, maybe?
I read about it, but it doesn’t seem to fit the Jang Hyun in the drama like the other historical figures.
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 11:51 PM
Yeah definitely loosely. The political bit seems to be the closest.
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 1:26 PM
Ah, for @kiara in particular … maybe we should make a My Dearest fan list ?
kiara
October 5, 2023 at 3:21 PM
Sounds good! I don’t know where to start, though :).
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 11:55 PM
(chuckle) okay, I’ll think about it and come back to you … 😉
kiara
October 6, 2023 at 6:29 AM
Feel free to do it. I’ll be drowning in history for anything else.
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 1:25 PM
Ladies and gents, new contribution: I just found this playlist for the interpretation of the latest video clip offerings for « My Dearest » Part 2. And different from the other Korean YouTubers, this person uses an AI to translate into English. The translation comes out okay, I find. He analyses the latest MBC teasers, so this is good. Someone else had posted the last teaser on Dramabeans, so that link it out there already. There are also a couple of new character posters for Part 2. Here the link to the playlist :
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmrpoGuNCzjxvemNQXdv048Pmn4bPrFl_
Second thing : I saw a cute 45 or so seconds promo clip for a fun-looking MBC programme on the 9th at 10:45 PM, also for « Yeonin » Part 2 … with the lead actress amongst others, at least if I understood this correctly. If there is anyone in Korea and fancies taping it … ? Here is the link for the clip : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpG9E1GO0Xs
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 8:21 AM
@seonha … help! How do I delete a post from my Fanwall once I posted it …. any idea?
sonai
October 5, 2023 at 8:42 AM
On your fan wall, you should see a button in the top right corner of each post: three light grey dots, vertically. Clicking on it opens a context menu per post, and from there, you can select “Delete”.
Hope this helps!
Seon-ha
October 5, 2023 at 9:21 AM
@angelshadows50 You don’t need to hear this from me, but I want you to know that @sonai is absolutely right!!!
Healer’s
October 5, 2023 at 9:36 AM
On the top right corner of the post, you click the 3 dots and choose “Delete”
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 9:54 AM
Thank you all !! @sonai @attiton @claire2009 and all others who I missed! Now I understand …
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 8:19 AM
I don’t see how I can DELETE a post …. hmmm (scratching head)
Healer’s
October 5, 2023 at 9:38 AM
Comment was deleted
angelshadows50
October 5, 2023 at 8:18 AM
Ignore below post please, this was just a test for myself …. nothing to do with Dramabeans …
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 6:59 AM
With « My Dearest » we see a very moving love story in historic times, yet the wider « reality » of Joseon before, during and after the Manchu invasion and the overthrow of the Ming Empire via Joseon Korea is left very much in the background with only snippets of factual highlights, I’d say. So, one needs to know a lot to understand motivations, I find.
kiara
October 3, 2023 at 8:31 AM
The geopolitics between the 3 countries set this drama apart from any sageuks I’ve seen, so it’s a big treat. I can see myself coming back to MY DEAREST many times. My PC is cluttered with historical articles, studies, research, videos, etc. I’m enjoying it so much!
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 8:47 AM
Me too! 🙂
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 6:54 AM
To add to that previous comment … after 1989 the then German government under Chancellor Kohl made an assessment, how expensive unification would get … some years later, it was revealed that they reported it vastly under their actual estimates at that time. So, like war, unification of two materially disparate landmasses, where one wants to be at the same « level » as the other, is horrendously expensive. Which is why, West Germans (a lot of them) today do not get, why East Germans « complain » …
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 6:45 AM
Little anecdote : I just wanted to do some grocery shopping at the local health food store (Alnatura), to take a break from working on the computer and on K-Drama stuff … (chuckle) while attempting to enter through the automatic doors of the store surprise, surprise … they would not open ; it was closed. Which is when I recalled that today is a public holiday in Germany, and at that, the so called « Reunification Day » … as in re-unification of West Germany and East Germany, now called Germany, using the official name of the Western part, Federal Republic of Germany! Shows how much West Germans remember this, which by East German standards (at least to date), is not reunification day but annexation day … — My sense is that North Koreans WILL feel something similar, if it would ever come to a unification … I had previously posted a documentary recommendation by ARTE on that topic … but of course, that is not accessible for beanies outside Germany or France.
I would find it interesting to know HOW many and whch K-Dramas had actually dealt with the topic of the divided country … there is of course » Crash Landing on You » … but there are surely others.
Healer’s
October 3, 2023 at 8:28 AM
The current drama Moving touched this topic as well.
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 8:49 AM
Thanks, @Healer‘s. I saw a lot of good things about this drama. So I might look into that a bit deeper. The overall genre was, at first sight, not quite my cup of tea. But I have been prejudiced uselessly before … so I’ll see. Thanks again.
DancingEmma
October 16, 2023 at 10:17 PM
Also, two more which I can recall are: “Move to Heaven” – somewhat tangentially – touches on the hard scrabble lives of the North Korean defectors. And, “Curtain Call” – which has a ridiculous central conceit – also has a very melo subplot focusing on the division and the tragic consequences.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 11:49 PM
Thanks, @dncingemma, I had started to watch Curtain Call, but stopped in between. I’ll look into the other one. I wonder if this topic is just too close to the heart to be able to be fictionalised well in a dramatic way …
DancingEmma
October 16, 2023 at 11:56 PM
@angelshadows50: I think you are right as these wounds are still very fresh for many families for one thing.
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 2:22 AM
I just saw the comments thread in this News item on Dramabeans https://www.dramabeans.com/2023/10/news-bites-october-2-2023/
re the 2’55 mn clip from MBC’s official site to « My Dearest » ( comment no. 2).
It seems to me that we are many who watch this show, but are not fluent in Korean. Translating the few words in this clip reminded me of a comment a German translator of Shakespeare made a few years ago. I am paraphrasing : Every translation is always also interpretation of meaning, so it is never a one-to-one job. His translation of Shakespeare’s works (an endeavour of over a decade if I remember correctly) is applauded by people fluent in both languages.
I did a fair amount of translations from and into English (German mostly) in my time (factual texts, not literature), and I remember the comments of my employers that they always have to plan for more space in their layouts for the German language, as German is longer. For fun I had also started to put the three language versions of Matthieu Ricard’s « Altruisme » in one document (a hefty book which took him five years to write), and guess what : German is longer, some of the beautifully written French portions of Ricard’s original text were somewhat vandalised in English (too literal), and some of the clarity of both French original and English translation get lost or sound cumbersome when reading the German text. … the beauties of a good translation … That’s probably why Yuval Noah Harari writes his books in English too, then gets the English version checked and corrected by a native speaker he trusts, and discusses the alterations … (He is Israeli, so Hebrew is his native language, but he studied in Oxford). — Now to my point about Korean.
For Korean it seems to be true too, what I learnt from Japanese : the syllables as such often convey a bare-bone wording, but the MEANING is often in-between the syllables, or even outside, not expressed in the wording as such. For a poetic form like Haiku this is particularly noticeable.
Soompi’s translation as quoted by @kiara is a good example, it seems to me (obviously done by a native speaker). It’s a script for television, so these are words meant to be spoken, the sentences are short, sometimes only a couple of words. The Soompi translator did clearly interpretative work on it, knowing the sageuk well.
( Side comment: By they way, this is also where I want to applaude the often very good and increasingly better translation work the viki volunteers do … I appreciate that they give interpretative notes or comments at times. Cultural meaning and background can only be explained with that. The productions streamed on Netflix (or probably Disney Plus too) lack this totally which I deplore. I should think that was also one of the major reasons for the criticisms re « Squid Game » (which I read ; I have not seen the show yet).
So, here are the words in Hangul, and Soompi’s translation the next line. Jang-Hyun starts speaking, knowing that Gil-Chae is listening:
상하지.
It’s strange, isn’t it? [ interpretative]
그리고 그 달이 밝은 날은.
후에 그대와 함께 있으니.
On days like these where the moon shines bright, I’m always with you. [interpretative]
These are the few words I wanted to quote to show the INTERPRETATIVE WORK required even for a few words, and when it enhances what was said … Also, it is correct in my view, that the moon serves as a symbol in their relationship throughout the sageuk. So the translator’s interpetation seems to be spot on.
Later on, the English expression « to be cast aside » is a more poetic form of what was said, and captures the deeper gentleness between these two souls better than the original matter-of-factish statement « you left me behind » does — he clearly felt cast aside and as Gil-Chae said at the end of ep. 10, if she would have know what her decision did to him too … but as someone said in the comments section to the recaps, she was caught between a rock and a hard place at that point in time.
Nowadays, I am trying to get hold of a Korean subtitle version for every K-Drama I like (and will watch again), best if it is the SDH version. Then, at some point later on, I put them in a Excel spreadsheet and compare the versions … Luckily, I got hold of the SDH Korean version for « My Dearest », the first part. So eventually I will use that as my studying material … becoming one of the many people who are learning Korean with K-Drama!
DancingEmma
October 3, 2023 at 5:20 AM
A wonderfully informative, interesting and impassioned comment. I love languages and appreciate your thoughts and insights.
kiara
October 3, 2023 at 5:48 AM
Thank you @angelshadows50!!!
DancingEmma
October 3, 2023 at 5:57 AM
I meant to mention this but forgot that if you listen carefully, he actually says 이상하지 which translates pretty closely to “isn’t it strange” using the informal “ji” suffix for confirming something you believe but posed as a qn.
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 6:47 AM
Ah great, thank you! That is good to know … That is something I would totally miss of course (and it bugs me … ) 🙂
DancingEmma
October 3, 2023 at 6:57 AM
This is a minor thing so don’t worry. Your post still is valid and a wonderful read.
angelshadows50
October 3, 2023 at 7:18 AM
Ah, @DancingEmma, I take it that you might understand Korean? If you do, I have two YouTube videos which are fun/interesting, by an historian ; about 20 mn each. “Ask me Anything” is his programme’s name, he did two on the Manchu invasion. These are next on my list to understand via my usual, very long-winded method, but for you, they might be easy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro5CxJC1Opw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdZiFb_GJVU
That’s his channel: https://www.youtube.com/@nowstory/videos
DancingEmma
October 3, 2023 at 7:30 AM
I’ve been studying it properly for the last two years but I have a long way to go as yet. I understand a fair bit but my vocabulary is still limited by the standards of my other languages so it is a joyful and consuming hobby for me. I love it so much. But it isn’t easy as yet.
And, thank you kindly for the headsup. I will listen to them and see how much I can understand!
angelshadows50
October 2, 2023 at 1:40 PM
Hiya, my thought for the day … I am currently also working on 13 or 17 hours of audio files of an in-depth conversation between two Jungian analysts, Marion Woodman and Robert A. Johnson (she Canadian, he American). I am a big fan of Robert A. Johnson (he actually met C. G. Jung in person in the 1920s at Bollingen castle). Both have passed now, but these conversations are eye-opening. They held them over several days in 1998. Both were in their 70s then, Johnson was Woodman’s senior by, I believe, 7 years. — I am mentioning this here, because even in the first session I found several elements highly relevant for a Korean historical drama as interpretational help. And since « Dramabeans » is about « Deconstructing K-Drama » that, in my view, might be a very relevant look onto the topic.
One of Johnson’s big themes was the « wounded feeling function » ; they talk about the Feminine and the Masculine, C. G. Jung’s typology etc. etc. — I want to share their thoughts about this as they apply here, and will do so at some point. Currently I am still tidying up the transcripts and trying to set up headers and sub-headers so as to have a kind of TOC at some point.
angelshadows50
October 1, 2023 at 8:55 AM
Lastly, what I noticed while doing this : the storytelling in this sageuk is less via words but more so via visuals, such as facial expressions, colour schemes, and the usage of sound, so for example, too, the pacing of speech. Feelings are substantiated via musical themes. In this sequence for example, there happens what I call the « Gil-Chae / Jang-Hyun » tragical musical theme at a telling moment. It is extremely well done, in my view.
angelshadows50
October 1, 2023 at 8:44 AM
Also, for the ones’ who do not want to go through 8 pages of jpeg’s to get to the spoken word ( so to speak ) here is what Jang-Hyun actually says in the 2’55 mn short clip from MBC :
Not bad.
And on a day when the moon is so bright.
Because afterwards I get to be with.
[ literal translation : Afterwards with you together because. ] [ Word sequence lasts 13 seconds. ]
[ Gil-Chae pulls her hand off the door handle.]
« I don’t know where it went wrong … »
« Shouldn’t I have left you behind and gone to Namhansanseong Fortress? »
« Shouldn’t I have left you behind and come to Shenyang at that time ? »
« Or … [ time stamp 00:02:10]
[ at ] that time … [ time stamp 00:02:15 ]
when you abandoned me . »
[ time stamp 00:02:25-27 ]
Elinor is trapped in the timeslip
October 1, 2023 at 9:06 AM
Thanks for all this! What a lot of work, but it really integrates the visuals and the dialogue beautifully.
angelshadows50
October 1, 2023 at 9:27 AM
Thank you for the appreciation, @Elinor! I do this mostly for myself too, because I love to understand nuances. K-dramas offer a foreign world to me which I would like to understand in depth. A lot goes via language of course, but given that Indic scripts as well as CJK scripts (and Arabic at that too) are all different to what I grew up with, it requires extra steps to get a language. I understood that when I started to learn Japanese. And then there are the different customs, particular history to a place etc.
Korean history has an interesting similarity to German history in a way, in that it is a country, rich in culture, where neighbours always thought they needed to subdue it somehow. Or, at times, Korea was the aggressor as well. In Germany, for centuries, it was between the Russian Empire and the French Empire. Famously, France was an « arch enemy » for a thousand years after Charlemagne. While the British went for the seas and their Victorian Empire, Germany remained a largely landbound empire. Joseon Korea, it seems, was too busy with its factional strives over centuries and had no interest in expansion, but wanted to live quietly by itself. Apparently there is a Korean saying which goes : if two wales move, a squid has to pay attention. Well, Germany never was a squid ( to keep up the metaphor ) but it could also get squeezed out, as happened after the Second World War, with the partition into the Western and the Eastern (communist) state.
Recently I noticed, that this partition story is also a story for Koreans. However, as I have learned too, the « Korean answer » will certainly be different to the German one from 1989.
angelshadows50
October 1, 2023 at 8:31 AM
angelshadows50
October 1, 2023 at 8:31 AM