Trying something new … writing a personal message to someone. — Hi, @kodra, not sure if this works … addressing a personal message to you. Well, personal becomes public, I suppose. Also, it is more of a reflection on where I am at with K-Drama, I guess, so others may read that too.
How is your life, @kodra? Reality has been biting me hard these past several weeks. I guess it was foreseeable, just that I ignored the signs. My life feels like climbing a steep mountain, with several paths to take and strong gusts attempting to blast me off the mountain, at every single step. I can foresee that this will be my reality for about a year … and it makes me fearful.
I used to console myself with the interesting novelty world of K-Drama, but after « My Dearest » pretty much everything has paled in this regard. The depth of emotions in that sageuk was utterly entrancing. And it made me think about precisely this : what is feeling, what is emotion in this world — and in my world ? I don’t have the time or the inclination now to read a lot on the Dramabeans site, although there are always comments which are interesting to me ; it takes a lot of time, and I don’t feel good about dedicating that time leisurely to this when I ought to start solving another piled-up crisis in my life looming on the horizon …
Also, I am noticing that I am becoming more and more my true Self and that my most fundamental beliefs are finding their rightful place. In the course of which I picked up again on this beautiful conversation between Deepak Chopra and Swami Sarvapriyananda from July 6, 2018 at the Rubin Museum of Art in New York City. I know and understand a fair amount about the « Hard Problem of Consciousness » Chopra is referring to, and his introduction to the reality of the Universe is priceless, short, precise, to the point. The scientific knowledge is exactly as he says. Swami Sarvapriyananda has been a favourite teacher for me for a while, from his talks and presentations. Have a look if this is of interest to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEGp9OvWRc&t=15s.
In the context of K-Drama, I am also picking up again a lot from Daniel Tudor’s book Korea—The Impossible Country ; in particular the chapters on the cultural codes, so chapters 7 to 12:
Jeong, The «Invisible Hug» ; Competition ; Chemyon — or Face ; Han and Heung — The Deep Sadness and Pure Joy in the Korean Mind ; From Clan to Nuclear Family ; Neophilia.
I am realising that our world of matter has its particular cultural expressions, which often are not accessible to one another, unless very well explained. I have seen people commenting on trope this and trope that in K-Dramaland, but I am wondering if this is not just another way of portraying the world of matter, reassuring us that everything is as we are expecting in our (limited) awareness.
That last thought is a bit fuzzy, I guess … but I a waning now, as the next task on my list is calling …
Anyhow, let me know how you’re doing, if you find the time. Cheerio.
It is a shame there is no option to do direct messages to individual beanies. I have done it by doing a reply to myself on one of my busy older posts and tagging the beanie there so it’s unlikely anyone else would see it is passing.
I hope that things are more settled for you now. The turn of the year or a significant birthday often leads to deeper reflections on how we are using our time and what we want from life.
@reply1988, Motherbean, thank you so much for checking. An online community is a somewhat strange unit, as it has no actual place for oneself to fall back onto. One meets wonderful and interesting people, but it is anonymous, so there is a cap on the closeness to be built and the possibility to further the acquaintance. I am in the process of reinventing myself. I am doing better. I am not out of the woods by a long way. I am so very busy now with doing things anew and different from before, so mulling over and sharing my musings with others on Korean dramas has very little spacetime in my life at the moment. I get pulled back into a way of how I do not want to be any longer. Yesterday was an exception that I went to the Dramabeans site and read through all the comments on EP 07 to 10 and pulled myself into commenting. I’ll see if I will be able to pick up that interest again with more dedication or not. The Korean representation of life and existence both historic and contemporary in their dramas is both intriguing and heart-wrenching for an emotional-intellectual person like myself. Does it inform my inner awareness in a healthy way or not? That is the question I am asking myself. — Sorry this is a long and probably deeper response to your warm and precise-short caring.
I have no issues with you choosing to share as much or little of your transition. There are times in our life when we benefit from taking time to pause and assess and it’s up to us where we share those reflections.
It is hard to reinvent ourselves and so it important to avoid those elements that can be a distraction from the process or are part of the lifestyle we want to leave behind. I hope you find the balance you need and if sharing ideas with a random online avatar who shares an interest helps I am happy to share this part of your journey for as long as we are both on the site.
UPDATE Fri 24 NOV 2023 18h30 German time : Sooo … Viki has updated EP 21 to the extended version, and I am sure the (at the moment missing) English subtitles will be updated soon, too!
Herewith the link to the MBC «Yeon-in« episode broadcast in Korea, yesterday. Please see my previous fanwall post and thread for its intention and meaning. File size is 1.9 GB. Resolution 1080p.
If you look at my post before this with the link, you’ll see that it is the Korean file of Yeon-in’s extended final episode, that MBC had broadcast this Thursday, 5 mn to midnight. Additional scenes which make things clearer ; better edited. 9 mn longer.
So you just putting Yeon In is what confused me. I have no idea who that is, so this is the extended episode from My Dearest. Thanks, will check it oiut
Alas, there are no subs and my Korean isn’t good enough to watch, but thank you very much for thinking of me. If you write a synopsis of what is in the extra, I will 100% read it.
Sorry, yes, «Yeon-in» is the romanisation of the Hangul 2 character script, means literally «Lover», and became «My Dearest» in English, as that title (Lover) exists for more than one other movie or TV programmes in English.
Beanie friends, the following posts are with reference to the extended edition of My Dearest’s last episode, so in fact EP 21 extended.
This programme was aired on Thursday, 23 November, 2023 at 11:55 at night Korean time and was 1h38mn long. Therefore, it is roughly about 9 mn longer than the broadcast episode 21. Apparently the viewership rate was 17.6%! It clears up several loose ends and made timeline and development of the story way clearer, as the production team spent some extra time on better editing.
On the 23rd, MBC also posted on their YouTube channel several new video clips which roughly add up to these 9 minutes. They are under these addresses :
In the extended clip, at position 51’48 mn —Concubine Jo’s horrified and scared face at the discovery of King Injo’s death— there is a commercial break and then the drama continues with clip number one (47 sec long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr3QvpU1g6w
Then the sequence moves over to Gil Chae’s apathy and deep mourning, sitting in her room, tears streaming down her face (as in EP 21). We hear the voice of Nam Yeon-jun. It is not yet clear if he is the author of the 사초 (sacho) report in question from EP 1, the one the newly appointed Jipyeong, 5th rank inspector 이립 (Yi Rip) is asked to examine by 헌영 (Heon Yeong), the scholar official (sadaebu 士大夫) in light rosé attire, probably a 3rd rank court official, who makes Yi Rip wait for several hours (until the sun is about to set), only then does he address him).
[ NOTE : A sacho is a preliminary record by a royal scribe, not to be included in the official records, and once these were written a 사초 would be destroyed.]
[ NOTE 2 : The «current time» of that part of EP 21 is also the Spring of 1659, i.e. around the time of King Hyojong’s passing (he died in May 1659 / lunar calendar, which is being used here) ; Hyojong being the former Prince Bongrim and brother of former Crown Prince Sohyeon, who also spent eight years in Qing captivity).
[ SPOILER ALERT : If you view this new clip and then go back to the initial scenes from EP 1, you will spot the connection apart from the words …. ]
In the VoiceOver in EP 21 —while we see Gil Chae’s grief— Nam Yeon-jun says : That winter, many people, whose lives were often filled with laughter and tears, died. I ranted about creating a world filled with courtesy and loyalty. But what was I able to protect? He continues (and the viewer sees him standing in a room, that may be some years later, so the «current time» of Spring 1659) : What is the Joseon that I protected like? After all this time, the only thing that I have left, is the sound of their laughter, which I will never get to hear again.
The next sequence of scenes moves to the grey-haired Ryan-eum in the dungeon of the Hyeminseo with tears in his eyes, being questioned by Inspector Yi Rip, who snuffs : Do you expect me to believe that ? Everything that the captives, Lee Jang Hyeon, the late Crown Prince, and Thief Kang, the Crown Princess, did together? Ryan-eum replies : It is all true. So please tell me now. What happened to Lee Yang Hyeon?
At this point, clip number two is inserted (1’57 mn long) ; in the extended version at position 53’45 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hd0_npLcak. This is probably the most important of the four clips for understanding all the plot developments.
(1) We see how Ryan-eum is freed from the prison, having been told by Inspector Yi Rip that Lee Jang Hyeon perished; (2) Yi Rip has a conversation with sadaebu Heon Yeong ; and (3) sadaebu Hoen Yeong having a flashback memory on the information from a conversation between King Hyjong and Kim Ja-jeon, whom Hyjong instructs to keep Ryan-eum alive but in prison (Kim Ja-jeon was chief state counsellor from 1645 to 1650, Prince Bongrim became King in May/June 1649, and ruled for 10 years). So this conversation will have taken place some time after May/June 1649.
Then immediately follows clip number three (2’12 mn long) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS_I_vzQ6rM
This is an extended conversation between the two court officials, so I believe this is clearly shortly after Hyjong’s death, June 1659 ; it starts with Yi Rip’s question, who then wrote the 사초 (sacho). With flashbacks on Nam Yeon-jun writing …
Secondly, the former Qing captive, now a Yangban herself, writes to Lady Yoo (Gil Chae), that Ryan-eum (the only know male survivor from that massacre on the beach) was released from prison (a survivor presumably because Jang Hyeon had knocked him unconscious). (The boy in front of her is about 6/7 years old, I would say, which in my book fits the timeline approximately correctly).
[ NOTE : I have not translated this part properly yet (nor the text on the screen), but there are several very meaningful historic-political references in the conversation between the two court officials, in this clip and also some in the previous one. ]
[ NOTE 2 : This letter to Gil-Chae becomes then, I believe, the prompt for her to look for the presumed murderer of her husband, Nam Yeon-jun, and that man’s wife, her best friend, to return to their home, and find him in the process of hanging himself. ] Now this part, which was very abrupt in EP 21, makes sense.
However, before THIS happens, the production team has included clip number four (length of 3’26 mn) into the drama : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U001SoF0_8Q
This beautiful sequence between Gil-Chae and Ryan-eum (in memory of their lover) gives a resolution to their relationship as well, which had been left open because Ryan-eum had disappeared somewhat after being spotted by the viewer in the Hyeminseo. Again, a token and symbol repeatedly representing Jang-Hyun is emphasised here : the fan.
Only at that point the story continues as depicted in EP 21.
Apparently, so @kodra told me, there is some change in the last speech of Jang Hyeon (on the beach with Gil Chae), but I have not compared that as yet.
I will post a wetransfer link to download this extended episode; this link will be available for a week. I shall send an additional notification to all the ones who might want to watch this version in its entirety and want to download it FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. It is not clear, if Kocowa or Viki will pick up this extra episode. Therefore I found a way to have it as it was broadcast in Korea yesterday.
The title of that episode was : 연인 최종회 확장판 — which (apparently) simply means «Yeon-in Final Episode Extended Edition».
You doing this is so cool!
I haven’t been following that show, but how about posting links for these things under the recap of the final – in that way, people who are watching the show later can find it. (Could be me, could be someone else).
I could also be an idea for the link collection under the recaps, but that would involve the admins, and I don’t know how you contact them.
Thank you so much, it makes so much more sense now.
Viewership rate was 17.6%? That is truly incredible, surpased the weekender ratings, which is something very dificult to achieve with so many shows and platforms.
My pleasure. I have to doublecheck that figure again, but that’s what I saw on a Naver site … Also, my Sonix AI transcription and then Google translation gave my quite an amount of gobbledygook, so I need to check the references there again, and come up with a better translation.
It’s the weekend, so maybe tomorrow, after cleaning I’ll do some more work on the computer … Also my comment on the boy, thinking about it again, is not quite correct. He needs to be older, more like 10 or 11 … And the letter to Gil Chae was talking about Jang Hyeon, that she had heard something from her brother (that sadaebu) about «community leader Lee» …
Also, I had started to put all Korean srt (and English in parallel) in an Excel, and then separate out the scenes ; I am quite some way down that path for EP 16. Ultimately I want to see, if I find @sicarius‘ criticisms justified or not. But I can only do that, once I have laid out the whole show. Also, @wonhwa‘s summarising analysis (recap EP 20/21) was well thought out, I found. Want to doublecheck that too.
You know, @kodra, one more thing this quality show is teaching me : wanting to truly understand the Korean broadcasting scene … How come South Korea can churn out so many shows, and most of them quality, some extremely high quality ? It appears to me to be a unique proposition in today’s world, across the globe. C- and J-drama I presume are NOT on that level… so how come? These anniversary sageuks (like Goryeo-Khitan War) seem to be in that vein for sure.
I am still amazed by it all, it’s a well oilled machine. Just think about having to film a 100 minute episode in a week! In that time frame, the original episode was still great and I don’t think that in many countries that level can be achieved. I remember reading a comment one chinese actor made (Chen Kun) a few years ago about how the chinese population is so much bigger than SK and of course it has more talent than them. And I beg to differ, in my opinion SK people have a diferrent soul that cannot be taught or imitated and it pours in almost all the shows I see.
Yes, I completely agree … from my initial fascination for the «otherness» of that Korean world, I am moving swiftly to an admiration of aspects of profoundness of that Korean world (as in world culture profoundness). It is an absolutely unique mix for such an almost peanut sized country (well a bit exaggerated, but you know what I mean … )
Oh, and this context : when in EP 21 Jang Cheol talks about family, society, values etc. etc. (in comparison to the Barbarians he wanted to keep at bay) I find that very, very telling — also for today’s world and Korean reality. This emphasis on family is extraordinary and a Neoconfucian heritage (with both aspects, good and useless ones). To my knowledge, no other world society has kept it that way …
I’d love to hear what you think are the good aspects of Neoconfucianism – and I’m not being sarcastic, I know almost nothing of it except through the distorted lens of Korean dramas, and from that viewpoint it looks like an unmitigated disaster as a set of organizing principles and a source of misery from its inception to modern times. In my *personal* view, most of its precepts are not only useless but also immoral and wrongheaded, but that’s a matter of individual opinion/belief.
@elinor, I only know little about it as yet ; I am working myself into the topic — starting with the Confucian part of it … any belief system (be it societal or spiritual) started off from a very valid point, attempting to change distortions in the world. For now I am assuming that was also so for (Neo)Confucianism, and what I know so far, that is the case. Let’s talk about this (huge) topic in more detail when I get a way more thorough understanding than I have at present. Does that work for you?
@angelshadows50
THANK YOU so much for your detailed explanations! It looks like the extended episode is now on Viki with subs – I checked the first couple of added clips, and the episode length has changed to 1:38. Your descriptions make both the added scenes and the episode overall so much clearer. Fantastic work!
Thank you, I am happy they had more time to better edit this episode. I already posted about it earlier. I “saw” it live on twitter and I got to understand some of it because the posts can be translated on twitter. Pretty much of what I understood: RE is told that JH is dead and he is released; he goes and sees GC and she says that she is jelous of the time they spent together (RE amd JH) and offers to live with her to remember JH together but RE leaves with JH’s fan; the inspector that releases RE is actually the baby the captive was left with, she is a noble now and that man is her brother. And I think JH says something extra in that last scene and they changed the end song with a more hopeful one. Kocowa didn’t have it thus far and we might never get to see this extended version. If I find it, I will let you know.
@kodra, yes please do, thank you! I just put the four clips through my sonix AI transcription software … but you give me more info than I could work out so far. I’ll have to have a look on Twitter then too …
@kodra, I just re-watched EP 20 for the third time today … what a brilliant episode! Regardless of the outcome in EP 21 and if that were «scraps of the cutting table» as some said, to elaborate on the various relationships from this drama by extension with another episode is worth it in my view.
There are several scenes I want to hint at (without wanting to spoil for people who read this and have not seen EP 20 yet), but here are two in particular :
1) the interaction between King and Jang Hyeon, then including Ingguldai:
mimic and gestures of the actor portraying the king are excellent when he and the interpretor are alone. — When it is the three of them the whole dialogue points to the fundamental problem of the times and the ultimate humanity which even the Qing dignitary shows now. It reminded me of the scene where Hong Taiji asked why they loved that king so much …. (That was outside his tent in the war camp outside the fortress).
And then he later commented to his daughter that their people ought to learn that … (he had said so before in his throne room, too)
That links to the storyline around 2) the emerging clear ideological and humanitarian frontline between Lee Jang Hyeon and Nam Yeon-jun, his father’s disciple. Isn’t that a fantastic dialogue? And then Jang Hyeon’s statement … I fully agree, the writer makes a clear political (and social) statement here, one that reverberates into today’s time!
I am reading at the moment a selection of accounts on Korea’s history and in one of them, there is the statement that Korea, with all its tragedies, has prevailed because of its Buddhist and Neoconfucian heritage, which are —so to speak— in the DNA of the peoples. Isn’t this dialogue something to really savour … alongside this comment?
I don’t think it was “scraps of the cutting table” but then again, I am not troubled by many things others are and other issues are important to me when watching and loving a drama. I think she gave a great ending, one that was planned from the beginning because of the way she set it up already in previous episodes, preparing us for it. But one that will be trashed here, for sure 🤣
On the humanity subject, I believe that is more about the inhumanity of King Injo more than the humanity of Qings. They (the higher ups) made enough money off of them already up to that point and with them winning over mings and moving their headquarter in Beijing I believe they did not see the use of keeping them hostage any longer. Which superpower were the joseons side with from then on? I would not agree to see this as an act of humanity after all they did to joseons and ming and is like saying that how great is the USA, for example, for being charitable with the refugees after distroying a country to get all the resources. They were great diplomats and great for their people. Also, let’s not forget that when Joseon came to power it was led by a general and his fighter son just like the Qings and probably many of new empires. And, as time goes on, people forget what they fought for and become ruled by these used up kings for a long time until their dinasty eventually ends. And it happened later to the qings, right? I think it was just a statement that he regarded non fighter rulers as unworthy of being loved by his people because, well, he was one. But maybe I missing something and hope you will explain it further.
About point 2, I am fully in agreement with you.
@kodra, yeah, re (1) I have to formulate that afresh … I am not clear enough what I wanted to say I think. I’ll take your reply as a starting point and will come back to you at another time. Just finished watching EP 21. Yes, the writer did set it up like this from the beginning as you say, also my impression.
Sure, I would love to debate further the subject. This weekend is pretty busy on my wnd also, monday I will have more time to formulate better my thoughts.
Until then I want to send you a very packed article with that period that can be searched further. At the beginning has a long list of articles that used the s-city diary. It’s a very long one and with valuable info from what I gathered reading so far.
Thanks for the article! I’ll go through it. I also have very little time to think and formulate ideas at the moment (in the middle of a house renovation which is NOT going well… plus tons of to do’s on the list 🙁 But we’ll do that …
@kodra — having seen EP 20 now of «My Dearest» : you were spot on with that historical-dramatic comparison! It will take a while longer for me to really look at this sageuk accurately and in depth…
Did you see her distancing JH from the real translator? She mentions him out of the blue a couple of times. I guess she had to do that because they were to similar, she inspired JH completely after him as what he did in S city but gave him a good guy twist. Loved the whole show, loved mostly how she portrayed the CP. I can love this CP and not what they let us believe him to be for centuries. She is making a political statement, she is showing us the korean version of him, none of that fake christian martyr nonsense that has been falsely attached to his name. She really gave the CP his life back. Love her and the show!
@kodra, I just re-watched EP 20 for the third time today … what a brilliant episode! Regardless of the outcome in EP 21 and if that were «scraps of the cutting table» as some said, to elaborate on the various relationships from this drama by extension with another episode is worth it in my view.
There are several scenes I want to hint at (without wanting to spoil for people who read this and have not seen EP 20 yet):
1) the interaction between King and Jang Hyeon, then including Ingguldai:
mimic and gestures of the actor portraying the king are excellent when he and the translator are alone. — When it is the three of them the whole dialogue points to the fundamental problem of the times and the ultimate humanity which even the Qing dignitary shows now. It reminded me of the scene where Hong Taiji asked why the loved that king so much …. (That was out side tent in the war camp outside the fortress).
That links to the storyline around 2) the emerging clear ideological and humanitarian frontline between Lee Jang Hyeon and Nam Yeon-jun, his father’s disciple. Isn’t that a fantastic dialogue? And then Jang Hyeon’s statement … I fully agree, the writer makes a clear political (and social) statement here, one that reverberates into today’s time!
I am reading at the moment a selection of accounts on Korea’s history and in one of them, there is the statement that Korea, with all its tragedies, has prevailed because of its Buddhist and Neoconfucian heritage, which are —so to speak— in the DNA of the peoples. Isn’t this dialogue something to rally savour … alongside this comment?
Maybe this episode should carry the title A Drop of Ink in a Pool of Clear Water … I suspect, by the way, that this has been written somewhere at the time in some historic account as statement …
Diary entry re My Dearest on Saturday, November 11, 2023. Episode 18 aired last night ; I could see the English subtitled version this morning on Viki Europe.
Random comment alongside: Today, November 11th, is also the start of the carnival season in my neck of the woods : 11.11 at 11 AM … People started drinking at 8 AM [ sad smiley ] because the date falls onto a Saturday … only a few are genuinely and happily celebrating with little or no alcohol …
Now, finally, I am beginning to understand the overall procedure of the writer, how she laid out the storytelling and why she laid it out the way she did.
There have been, so far, two large parts to the drama I could not match up flawlessly :
the epic love story with its archetypical and also very modern and mature (in terms of relationship) undertones — and the historic events portrayed : such as the war events themselves, Joseon court’s and the King’s reactions, the social and political fallout for Joseon people after the war, be they court officials in Joseon, Shenyang Hall in Mukden/Shenyang/Shimyang, or the yanban, peasants and nobi, both in Qing and Joseon, and the reasonings and views of the New Masters in Town, the Qing and their needs from Joseon while in the process of overthrowing the 200-year long stable Ming Empire.
There had been early on a concept for the drama published by MBC on the drama’s website. It focused on the events between a man and a woman —so, the love story. When I put it through Google Translate at the time, it appeared still completely cryptic to me. Obviously, translating Hangul with a machine-learning AI, is only a crude way of transposing the Korean language into English ; there is always a lot of interpretation needed —almost impossible for someone who does not have a good command of the language. Korean —as Japanese— seems to be a largely context-driven language, way more so than European languages, where grammatical structure and individual words are already laying out where the language-logic is heading. (However, please also note my previous comment on the poverty of the English language (or all other European languages) when it comes to «(E)Valuing» (by naming) what kind of «Love» we are talking about exactly … see here: https://www.dramabeans.com/2023/11/my-dearest-episode-17/#comment-4136564
So— … when MBC published the following text as concept for the drama, I was lost, scratching my head : What DO they mean? Even after studying the writer’s comments in her interview from March 2023, I did not understand much more, while watching the drama. So, now, in the penultimate episodes, I am starting to get a better sense … and I will attempt an interpretative translation of the concept, and explain briefly thereafter.
내 인생에 사랑은 없다, 당당하게 비혼을 선언한 사내가 내 남자는 내 손으로 쟁취하리라, 야심차게 선언한 여인을 만나 벼락같은 (짝)사랑에 빠진다. 하지만 때는 병자년, 조선이 청군의 말굽에 짓밟히는 병화를 겪으며 여자의 운명이 급류에 휘말려 떠밀려가고, 흘러가는 여인 따라, 사내의 운명도 걷잡을 수 없이 휘청거린다. 세상 모든 일에 자신만만했으나 자신이 사랑에 빠지면 어떻게 변하는지도 몰랐던 어리석은 사내, 세상 모든 사내의 마음을 사로잡고서도 자신이 진짜 연모하는 사람이 누군지 깨닫지 못했던 어리석은 여인. 사랑에 한없이 어리석었던 이 사내와 여인, 과연 사랑을 이룰 수 있을까? 아니, 살아남을 수 있을까?
This is my attempt at a «smoothed out» (slightly interpretative) English translation :
There is no love in my life, [she confirms]. [Yet at the same time,] there is a man who proudly announces he doesn’t intend to get married.
I will choose my man myself ! she declares [defiantly].
He, now, meets an ambitious woman and falls in love like lightening.
But it is Pyeonga’s year [the year of the Fire Rat],
And Joseon is suffering from war, being trampled upon by the horses’ hooves of the Qing army.
The woman’s fate is caught in the torrent and washed away,
[yet] following the woman’s flow,
her man’s fate also spirals out of control.
I was confident in everything in the world, [he says]
But I didn’t even know how things change when I fall in love!
Foolish man!
Even though she captures the heart of every man crossing her path,
She did not realise whom she really loved.
Foolish woman!
This man and this woman who were infinitely foolish with love,
Can love really be achieved?
No— will they be able to survive?
My beanie friends, you might agree, that this concept can mean a lot of things ; paired with the writer’s declaration of using the «Gone With the Wind» narrative for her story, I was not the much wiser— as it seemed, for several episodes, that she was using the Selznick film as a kind of carbon copy for her story.
However, as the drama moved along, and especially after the hiatus from Part 1 to Part 2 —and the extremely confusing timeline at the beginning of Part 2— I finally realised what she had meant.
I am referring to her explanation she gave in her interview that there are a lot of difficult topics in Korean history, the Pyjeongahoran ( the Second Manchu Invasion ) being only one of them, but that it could be handled by using an (epic) love narrative as the connecting element for all plot lines ( such a narrative Mitchell had used for «Gone With the Wind», however with way less plot lines connecting, and, in the end, in quite a different manner ).
My impression is that the writer has largely succeeded with her concept and her intention.
Now what remains to be seen is the answer to the last question in the concept : Will they be able to survive?
Foolish, indeed! But aren’t we all are when young?
“there are a lot of difficult topics in Korean history….but that it could be handled by using an (epic) love narrative…”
Do you get the feeling that by not showing us some parts she actually is making a statement in her known subtle way and all of it disguised and packaged in one of the most beautiful love story?
@kodra, I just watched a download I have (w/o subtitles at the moment) of EP 19 … « subtle way » indeed!! On the personal story, certainly ; on the political story, maybe also for reasons of practicality and cost ; also, what would if have added to her and our understanding of the historic events if she would have staged a filmed meeting between the Crown Prince and the Jesuit priest in Beijing? — It would have, in my view, just opened another avenue, and not one she wanted to go down. This way now, she has kept the story tight, I think, without loosing the essential element post-Manchu War, about how, in Joseon, the Joseon people reacted, and how the Court reacted to these events. After all it is a Korean drama, attempting to be «objective» about the Korean viewpoint and interpretation without loosing sight of, for example, the Manchu point of view. THAT is very nicely done, in my opinion. Having seen so many episodes now, I know @sicarius had said that there were some unnecessary bits, but looking back, I do not think so. It all makes sense to me right now.
Also, I think the actor who plays King Injo deserves a lot of praise! Also the actors who play some of the senior court officials. They were support roles, but excellently portrayed. I also do not agree with @kiara that Sohyeon is portrayed weakly here. It is correct in my view that the fictionalised character of Jang Hyeon is getting a lot of the praise for decisions and actions, but it is also true in my opinion, that the Crown Prince did have advisors to whom he listened, and did grow because of what he experienced. The latter is clearly visible in My Dearest throughout.
I agree about the actor playing Injo, as most of them did a great job. You should see the crown princess today, magnificant performance, I was moved and really felt her pain.
I think the writer portrayed very well the love they had for eachother, the fact that they did do as much as they could ( or what were actually permited by the qings and Injo to do) to help those people and to prevent another war, even if that meant also listening to advice given by a man that had influence with the qings. There is no doubt why he stayed there for so long, why everyone bribed him and got promoted once he returned. Sohyeon was weak and easy to influence and that is why Injo and the westerners were afraid of him.
The story starts with documents that should not have been written and, by that, a true history that has not been revealed.
It’s ok to disagree. I enjoy this the most—sharing what we know and our opinions like adults. This is why I love watching sageuks. Unfortunately, most of the sageuk club are no longer interested in the show, and I don’t blame them, but I’m here for the bitter end, even if I have to skim through it.
@angelshadows50, I don’t have a problem with Sohyeon, the actor. He is fantastic! I have a problem with downgrading him in Qing, but I understand that he is not the lead character—Sohyeon was in direct conflict with the Qing officials, especially going head to head with Inggūldai. There are many unofficial records of him since not much was written about him except in Injo’s sillok.
Yes, he did have advisors, but that doesn’t mean he was a sitting duck in Qing like in this drama.
@kiara, can you get me links or references to these unofficial records for Sohyeon when you have time? It’s not urgent, … really only when you get the time to send me links or lit. references. I want to follow up on him at some point in the future, because what I have seen so far is quite disparate. Thx. a million 🙂 🙂
@angelshadows50,
Most of what I have is from a decade ago, before “Cruel Palace” came out, based mainly on Concubine Jo.
Unfortunately, I didn’t keep the links, but there were references from The Seungjeongwon and articles that didn’t make the cut in the official Annals. There were also the Journals of Korean History Studies conducted by local university scholars, but they stopped translating them into English, so I lost all that info.
I’ll try to find links, but I’m sure we have more information now than we had 10-20 years ago. Even Wikipedia didn’t have much on K-history, but they do now.
I love learning from Korean sources back in the day. Now, we have a lot of studies from outside sources, which is excellent, but most are not well-versed, and you can tell when you read articles from an outsider looking in compared to the local references.
Let me know when you start searching, and I’ll do it with you.
On the political story I believe is more that she didn’t want to go that way, I feel there is not a that way at all in some korean circles and that if even there was a meeting, it did not mean anything to CP or his tragic end. I couldn’t find published articles that cite written sources confirming that Injo thought the captives were part of the CP’s rebelious army. Maybe there are but didn’t have the time to go on the rabbit hole. I did find an article though that explains the Sim Kiwŏn’s Revolt and I understood better Inju’s paranoia with the CP. It appears that the qings wanted to swap Injo with the CP and Injo among other things. The real life JH interpreter appears in the article again showing how influencial he was with the qings.
I also feel that she needed to show all the work the real life interpreter did at that time, so the whole S-city arc was used for that together with GC captive crises. She needed them to be single and I understand that it was boring to many but she really wanted to know of him. I concentrated more on GC and didn’t realize it at that time.
Diary entry re My Dearest on Friday, November 10, 2023. While we are waiting for the next episode of the historic drama to be screened tonight, I would like to make a few further remarks with regards to the character GAK HWA.
@kiara has already given details for this character’s most likely real-life inspiration, Lady MAKATA 馬喀塔 of the Aisin Gioro clan. Her full personal name in Chinese ist 爱新觉罗 馬喀塔 — which translates as Aison Gioro Makata (so in reverse order).
Having arrived at episode 18 of My Dearest, I can now understand, why the writer fictionalised this Qing princess as a pivotal (support) character —and it makes now sense to me. It is, in my view, one very valid way to dramatise the story and moved it along as the writer has. It fits the timeline perfectly.
In «My Dearest» out of boredom, this Qing princess hunts escapees. That’s how Jang Hyeon and she cross paths in the first instance, in 1642 approximately. The real-life Makata was half-Mongol (her father, Hong Taji, was Manchu, her mother was Mongol). If you remember what was said in the drama about the Mongol soldiers in the Manchu war, you understand my remark. The Gak Hwa in the drama has a wild and merciless side to her personality. In summer 1642, Makata was 17 years old, and a widow for one year. It is likely that she would have been married off by her father to strengthen his position in the Mongolian Plateau after March 1636, when all Mongol chieftains from a total of sixteen clans and forty-nine subclans gathered at Mukden/Shenyang and gave their allegiance to Hong Taiji. Erke Khongghor —also know as Ejei Khan— had surrended. Makata had been married to Ejei Khan since 1636; he passed in 1641.
Of course a 17-year old Makata does not gel well with the actress’s age who plays Gak Hwa. But that has been a problem with the male and female leads as well. Yet no appropriately young actor/actress would have been able to portray the complexities of these three characters, so I for one, do not mind too much. I prefer the depth of portrayal I find with all actors and actresses.
In the drama Gak-Hwa confides in Jang-Hyeon that she had killed her husband. It is suggested that he had just used her, once, and she had punished him with death for disregarding her and trapping her in a marriage he was not willing to live. (Also, they would not have consummated the marriage before she was 15/16, so in 1639/1640). If this is historically accurate for Lady Makata is, I believe, not known. Yet again, it fits the drama’s character. Once her father dies in September 1643 —Gak-Hwa / Makata is now 18 years old— she sides with the prince Regent Dorgon, who values her support because she has the women of the Qing court under her control, as General Ingūlldai makes clear to Jang Hyeon (in episode 16). In episode 17 Gak-Hwa boasts towards Jang Hyeon that the Prince Regent needs her and (still) relies on her a lot.
However her remark is counteracted by the two Qing nobles on the hunt passing her and Jang Hyeon in the woods. It becomes clear that the (male) Qing court regards her —a mere woman after all— as a nuisance who needs to get married off again quickly. I am quite convinced that this can be a fair interpretation by the writer of Makata’s real-life situation.
Now, in episode 18 we are in May 1645.
Lady Makata was married off in 1645 to the younger brother of her first husband. However, it was again a marriage à la raison d’état : Abunai (阿布奈) was 10 years her junior, so he was 10 years old in 1645! Their first son, Borni (布尔尼), was born in 1654 ; her second son, Lubuzung (罗布藏. With the marriage, Abunai became Prince Chahar of the First Rank (察哈尔亲王) ; he and both his sons with Lady Makata died in 1675, after a failed attempt of him and Chahar Mongols to rebel against the Qing emperor. The Qing dynasty’s punishment of the rebellion was very harsh: all royal males of Chahars were executed, including infants born to Qing princesses, and all royal females of Chahars were sold to slavery except these Qing princesses.
Lady Makata died aged 37/38 in 1663. In 1657, during the reign of Shunzi, she had been granted the title «Princess of the First Rank (固倫長公主)» —something the two Qing hunters mention mockingly in episode 17, that Gak Hwa had demanded that of Dorgon, the Prince Regent.
In 1659, she was named Imperial Princess Yongning of the First Rank (固倫永寧長公主), and posthumously the title Princess Wenzhuang, of the First Rank (固倫溫莊公主) was bestowed.
Lastly, also, a word with regards to her mother : Jerjer (哲哲) of the Khorchin Mongol Borjigit clan became Hong Taji’s married Hong Taji in May 1614 (at 15 years of age) and became one of his many wives. In 1623 Hong Taiji divorced his second primary consort, and elevated Jerjer to the position.
Jerjer gave birth in 1625 to Hong Taiji’s second daughter, Makata (Princess Wenzhuang of the First Rank), on 2 August 1628 to his third daughter, Princess Jingduan of the First Rank, and on 7 October 1634 to his eighth daughter, Princess Yong’an of the First Rank.
After Hong Taji’s death she became Empress Dowager, and when she died end of May 1649 she was posthumously honoured with the title Empress Xiaoduanwen (孝端). The full title is : Empress Xiaoduan Zhengjing Renyi Zheshun Cixi Zhuangmin Futian Xiesheng Wen (孝端正敬仁懿哲順慈僖莊敏輔天協聖文皇后).
«Jerjer» translates in fact as «lady» or «beauty» ; and if you look at the portrait from the 17th century here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:《孝端文皇后朝服像》.jpg she was really beautiful ! So it is likely that her daughters were too, and it is also likely that this was one good reason why Hong Taji loved his daughter very much (at least if one goes by the interpretation in the drama).
I am happy to hear that the princess arc makes sense to you also. I have watched her, and also RE, from her pov and I understand, at least, her motivations and actions. The writer does know how to thread her story, she needed someone that can control JH both in personal and non-personal business, someone that would and could go crazy for him ( a young beautiful princess with power but not loved so far, one that couldn’t really have an affair with men from her tribe or mongols as she knew she will get married soon; talk about a real noona, she had to wait a few yrs for her husband to grow in RL) and one that can or not help him with the captives that have become even more important now, at the end.
The mom looks gorgeous in the painting bit I think she was just as beautiful in real life. It probably had something to do with the genes, HT married 6 women from the same clan, some of them relatives and I think it had to do with their beauty. Most likely the princess was just as beautiful like her mom and just as determined as her father. She managed to keep her mongols under control until she died but afterwards her husband and two boys rebelled against her own family and got themselves killed. And, like a lesson we can learn only from real history, the mongols became captives just as the joseons they had humiliated a few decades ago.
Thank you so much for going into detail. I love this!
I will return to episode 1 and add more historical references when the show is over. It was overwhelming, so I just skimmed through it in the beginning. I’m keeping the current in order on my fanwall to add more later.
– I figured after reading up on Tatara Inggūldai that the name of the tribe one belongs to comes first. I do believe Makata was Hong Taiji’s favorite, too. I like how the writer highlighted the Chahar Mongols because they were the last ones tied to the Yuan royalty. Hong Taiji’s claim as a legitimate emperor happened after acquiring the Yuan imperial seal from the Chahars in 1634/35, as mentioned in the drama. Makata’s marriage solidified her father’s rule and united the past and current power.
EPISODE 17
-I didn’t like what those ungrateful soldiers said about her and her marriage. She also married for her people and to keep the Chahars in check.
-I thought it was interesting that Jang Hyun met Gil Chae and Gak-Hwa when they were around 16.
Following a few remarks I picked up from George Kallender’s intro to the « Diary of 1636 » (mentioned before) which I found interesting and useful for the conversation on « My Dearest » :
ONE—
« In contemporary North and South Korean historiography, the first attack in known as “the invasion of the cyclical year 1627” and the second as the “invasion of the cyclical year 1636-1637.” THESE ATTACKS WERE SEISMIC EVENTS IN CHOSON HISTORY WITH LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.
Thet fortified anti-Manchu sentiment, stimulated proto-national consciousness, and BEGAN A PROCESS THAT WOULD TURN KOREANS AWAY FROM THE OVER-GLORIFICATION OF CHINESE CIVILIZATION to focus their attention on cultural developments in Korea. »
TWO—
« Na may have also underestimated the extent to which the diary could serve as a source for Manchu and Chinese history.
The work describes the early period of Manchu development and expansion around the activities and personalities of key Manchu figures—such as Hung Taiji and his family members who accompanied him to Korea, and top Manchu generals Ingguldai and Mafuta—who appear frequently throughout the diary. Of course, New Qing History contests the notion of “Manchu” identity today, especially regarding the formative period in the early decades of the seventeenth century.
Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.
Still, HE DESCRIBES A TIME WHEN THE MANCHU STRUGGLED WITH IDENTITY— WHEN TO ACT MORE CONFUCIAN AND WHEN TO ACT MORE JURCHEN—as they moved beyond their homelands and collided with other groups, most importantly the Ming Chinese–oriented worldview of the Chosŏn. The diary shows some key concepts that appear to be unique or specific to their Jurchen or Manchu culture, such as the forced intermarriage of the Manchu and Korean elites, the stealing of horses, and the interior arrangement of Hung Taiji’s military tent. However, it also reveals that, AS EARLY AS 1636, THE MANCHU BEGAN DEFTLY ADOPTING CONFUCIAN RHETORIC AND CONCEPTS IN THEIR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE CHOSŎN DYNASTY, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN THEM. »
THREE— That can be seen in EP 14 ….
« As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, CAPTURED A NUMBER OF CHOSŎN MILITARY MEN WHO HAD FOUGHT WITH THE MING IN THE NORTHEAST REGIONS. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire.»
@angelshadows50, thank you for the historical background and attention to detail. I am inspired to go to the library to find a book on earlier Korean history. What I’ve read is more recent history. You took this drama and ran with it!
My pleasure, @owl. I am really glad that my posts here have inspired you to do so. When I discovered Korean dramas not too long ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of «otherness» I experienced. I found it utterly intriguing. «Other» from what I knew and had learnt so far … I have no family connection to Korea and so it was a far-away and even geopolitical tiny place about which I had not cared in particular. When I read praises about the « 500 years of (steady) Joseon history » I was somewhat intrigued. By now I have learnt that « steadfastness » came at a price too, and that this place did undergo the same trials and tribulations as the rest of the human world. I often quote the shorthand version, Yuval Noah Harari uses for this: famine, plague and war. Just the Korean experiences and answers, as portrayed in contemporary and period drama series, seemed to really interest me now. I still can’t answer why, like others here, I too watch almost exclusively K-Drama now. I love films and watched a lot in the past. I learn from films. I also have learnt a few years ago, why I cannot watch certain types of storytelling, of which South Korea, until recently, did not seem to do a lot: violence as in pure portray of violence ; or horror, or necrophilic portrays. I literally cannot watch that because it affects me too much, physically and mentally, as I am what Elaine Aron calls an HSP.
But I can unravel the intricacies of history, art, metaphor. I love doing that. Time jump, past life etc. experiences portrayed in K-drama feel real to me, genuine ; I can relate to that. Also, all K-dramas I have seen so far took their time to develop a story, and it was not totally angst, relationship hardship without any reason and violence for violence’s sake. Most K-dramas I saw had a soul, if I may phrase it that way. American movies/series, be they the Christian (Hallmark) or blockbuster variety seem of a stereotyping which I find much less interesting, soulless … maybe. I used to watch them a lot.
So I, too, am going backwards and forwards in Korean history. I started with Dong Yi. That was the sageuk which has inspired me most so far. « My Dearest » is a close second, moving fast to number one.
Oh, and yes, there was a really good 5-part documentary about South Korea on French/German Arte a few years back, which I recorded and recently watched again. The Koreans are portrayed as « creative » peoples … I like that idea.
Ah, good sound reasoning behind the intrigue of K-dramas for those of us who have shifted our viewing to them almost exclusively.
I don’t know how to upload a picture in this thread, but I’ve posted a book on my wall that I am reading. It is dense and fact packed, but very interesting. The acknowledgements highlight the importance of interviews of village elders combined with info from the Dept of Anthropology at Seoul U and Korean Studies.
“Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.”
While writing his journal, Hong Taiji barely declared himself emperor and changed Jurchen to Manchu and their new language in 1635. Na was a part of a court that was anti-Jin (Qing).
I wonder what would have happened if they accepted Nurhaci’s help with the Japanese Invasion.
It would have been advantageous for a small country like Joseon to have more allies than enemies, but they put all their eggs in one basket (Ming).
Only Gwanghae saw these invasions coming and did something about it, but he had to be dragged off the throne because he was seen as siding with the enemy.
The suffering of the people could have been avoided.
Our poor crown prince is another Gwanghae in the making. I wonder if he should have waited for his father to die first before introducing his ideas and plan for the future.
Hmm, yes, I see what you’re saying. It is also difficult to do because if it becomes too «documentary» people might feel lost. «Yeon-in» does —I presume intentionally— NOT do that but sticks to the historical events at that time AND then uses the human-interest «eternal» yet star-crossed love as red threat (starting with Gil-Chae’s dream) ; yet, as I said in the recap threat, one needs to know a lot to understand a lot, I find. But it’s fun to fin stuff out …. So that’s okay.
Maybe the Dramabeanies could start a list of really good sageuks, which King/Period, and why the beanie contributor thinks its particularly good … Isn’t there a section where this could be done? Mimi puts hearts against her selection …
Ladies and gents, in case you are wondering (as I was) which battle Hong Taji was referring to in EP 14 (34’39 mn of 1’28’53 mn) I did again some digging. I haven’t found any precise information yet about which battle at mount Song he refers to (when it took place exactly in 1643) but I found some interesting info re the fact that they were fighting the Ming at the southeastward point in the Ming Empire: my feeling is that it was due to the fact that it is one of the five mythical mountains (or rather mountain ranges) of China, with huge symbolic meaning. Songshan is a sacred place of Chinese Taoism, the birthplace of Buddhism where the Shaolin Temple is located, and the birthplace of Chinese Neo-Confucianism.
I am adding the names of the five mountains/mountain ranges and a screen cut-out from Korean Wikipedia with their names. So here is :
숭산 / 嵩山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/숭산_(산) [Song Shan]
항산 / 恒山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/항산 [Heng Shan]
태산 / 泰山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/태산 [Tai Shan]
화산 / 華山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/화산_(중국) [Hua Shan]
형산 / 衡山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/형산 [Heng Shan ; same English transliteration but different Chinese ideogramme]
In a way they form a five-pointed star pattern, if you look at the map. Possibly representing the five elements … but I have not looked into the mythological/symbolic meaning of the mountains in China ; I did some of that for Korea, when I researched Jirisan for example. Korea took over the Chinese cultural concept of the five mountains with mythological/symbolic meanings (the concept is represented in the screen backdrop which you see often behind the Joseon King in the Throne Room).
@dncingemma, I replied to your comments, but forgot to put your DB id in front of it, so it would not turn up in your list. You\’ll just have to go to the entries where you commented I think…
Dear DancingEmma, I would like to pick up this conversation later. Unfortunately I need to go now, start my day. It would be really good to find a working solution. 🙂
Just an important pronunciation point: In Korean, the ‘ㅇ‘ at the end of a syllable has the nominal sound of ‘ng’ but the ‘g’ is almost swallowed and should not be tantamount to ‘going’ ending.
Lastly, as for the part on social stratification : This is also important, I feel, for « My Dearest ». Mimi gives a wonderful overview on that as well (her blogsite talkingcupboard). What I found interesting and relevant from Professor Kallender’s introduction is the remark about lesser and nobler yangban … Gil Chae, now Lady Yoo, is certainly a lesser yanban (as is her husband). I suspect Jang Hyeon also to be in this category (originally), now a merchant. That’s clear to me when he “teases” the court official who asks him for advice in personam outside the Manchu war camp … (the name escapes me right now, he is now Prime Minister I believe, in the Realist camp on the court…)
Interest! Here is my take.
Gil Chae and the nobles in Neunggun-ri would be considered lesser than the Hanyang nobles who held high government posts or related to the royals etc. If you are from the village, you are basically discriminated against as a country bumpkin, unsophisticated, ill-mannered, etc. It does matter where you are from. That’s why she wanted to learn about the people in the capital. She thinks that’s where she belongs.
Officer Yu is from a military family. You can tell their ranks from their job. Military families were the lesser nobles. The higher nobles were exempt from any military duties unless one was chosen to be the minister of war and related posts in the capital, which is a high position in the branch of the government.
Jang Hyeon is a merchant/interpreter, so he is middle class. Since he has money, he can buy/register as a lesser noble.
When he first appeared in the village, there was a rumor that he bought his noble status. His past is still a mystery, so who knows if he was a fallen noble or a government slave like Ryang-eun.
From the brief flashback we saw in Episode 12, I speculate that JH belonged either to a noble or merchant family. The flashback showed him as a child carried by a servant.
THE FOLLOWING SERIES OF ENTRIES is a verbatim copy of parts of the introduction to below mentioned diary of 1636 by Na Man’gap, by the American George L. Kallender, Professor at Syracuse University in Syracuse, NY. He is an expert in premodern and early modern Korea and had translated the diary for the Asian Classics series of Columbia University Press ; it was published in 2020. His multi-page introduction is outstanding, very informative. I will only quote certain passages, which seem to be very relevant at this point in time for a viewing of « My Dearest » or serve as introduction to what this diary is and means. @kiara has quoted often from this book for her historical updates.
This is PART 1 OF 5
THE IMPORTANCE OF NA MAN’GAP’s DIARY AS REPORTING TOOL AND WHAT IS TELLS US TODAY
« The Diary of 1636 (Pyŏngjarok) is one of the best-known Korean accounts of the second Manchu assault (the invasion of the cyclical year 1636–1637). Written by a demoted member of the court who was living in exile and was a keen observer, Na Man’gap’s Diary details the unprecedented domestic and international crises faced by the Chosŏn dynasty. At roughly forty-three thousand characters, Na Man’gap’s work is the longest known nonofficial source on the Manchu invasion. Na wrote the first half of the diary during the attack, as a day-by-day narrative of events he witnessed directly. […]
In the second half of the diary, which he most likely composed and edited between 1641 and 1642 from oral stories and written documents collected after 1637, Na added political nuance and commentary, sometimes praising, sometimes criticizing those who fought on the battlefield or argued at the court over loyalty to the king. […]
Also included are stories of military campaigns along the northern and western regions of Chosŏn, the Manchu treatment of prisoners of war, and the post–invasion debates over Manchu collusion and the proper Confucian etiquette demanded of Koreans in times of war. The diary is of particular interest because of Na’s training and his detailed attention. At one point in his career, he served as a diarist for the Office of Royal Decrees (Kŏmyŏl), and he used his professional skills when writing the diary. […]
Chosŏn-era writers certainly accepted Na’s diary as an unofficial history. […] This makes it clear that the diary circulated among a handful of scholars, although the reception of the work immediately after Na’s death in 1642 is uncertain. As he was out of favor with the court when he wrote it, Na had the freedom to explore events without fear of political retribution and could thereby offer an alternative view from the official sources. […]
The Diary of 1636 can be read as a narration of the Manchu invasion of Korea and the political and social aftermath of a premodern society at war. However, much is happening below the surface of the text. As a deft writer, Na subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, critiques the contemporary politics of the Chosŏn dynasty through the structure, tone, and context of his stories. Na’s critiques range from the decision to go to war to the acrimonious environment of political retribution in which many officials were expelled from the center of power, including himself. Na Man’gap describes how the outcome of the attack redefined the relationship between the center and the periphery—those who held power in the court and those who resided in the countryside and did not. […]
The war disrupted ties between dynasties and fractured loyalties at all levels. Korea redirected relations to Mukden (K. Shimyang, C. Shenyang), the Manchu capital, and away from Beijing, challenging Chosŏn loyalty to the Ming. Ming Chinese soldiers switched sides and fought for the Qing. Mongols joined the invasion force. Chosŏn military men supported the Manchu. Korean officials split between pro- peace and pro-war, and even a handful of expatriate Japanese fought alongside Chosŏn. Loyalty was a fluid concept. »
I enjoyed reading his book, which provides a rare first-hand account of the Second Manchu Invasion. His daily records helped us keep track of the drama timeline.
Na Man’gap’s conversation at the end of the invasion with Crown Prince Sohyeon was touching. The crown prince was courteous and kind. He even inquired about Na’s mother and expressed gratitude for his service during the invasion.
“My Dearest” doesn’t do him justice. Most of his accomplishments in Qing are given to Jang Hyun in the drama. His wife, the crown princess, was business savvy. It was her idea to do farming. They earned a lot of money and bought as many Joseon hostages in Qing and sent them home. Some were paid to help at the farm.
He got along well with the Qing royals, and that didn’t sit well with Injo, who was paranoid that Qing would replace him with his son.
@kiara, yes thank you for adding this and your views. I feel that we have not seen everything of the Crown Prince yet in «My Dearest». However, I am not certain yet if the writer will, in the end, have portrayed him in a more conventional way or, as you say, as the really interesting person he seemed to have been in real life. He is in this K-Drama after all a side character, albeit an important one. — Why he got killed is clear from our vantage point. That was the former MBC head’s point, I should think. But will they touch this topic ? That’s a whole new film, and none which can be told from within the times I should think and possibly way too critical for a consensus television drama. Also the writer did say in her interview that she did not want to do Injo-bashing (my naming of her words) but portray him in a multi-dimensional way. — I would like to enter this additional information on the crown prince etc. from the diary into the conversations on «My Dearest» we are having here and on the recaps. I had so far deliberately not done a copy/paste job on this part of the diary … also because I ran out of time yesterday, and don’t have time the next several days until the new episodes come out
THIS IS PART 2 OF 5
THE RELATIONS BETWEEN MANCHU AND JOSEON (ON A PEOPLE LEVEL)
« The Manchu empire was divided into constituencies that included various groups and tribes based on language, lineage ties, and geographic proximity under the umbrella of the early khan’s leadership. This concept of inclusion extends to interaction with the Chosŏn dynasty.
Korea was an integral part of Jurchen-Manchu expansion and imperial identity. To create emperorship, the khan needed recognition by the Korean court and the inclusion of the Chosŏn dynasty into his expanding empire. The Manchu achieved this in the 1627 agreement with the Chosŏn, but King Injo’s withdrawal from this arrangement demanded action. Breaking the peace was not only a military threat, it was also an ideological danger to the Manchu emperorship. Allowing the Chosŏn dynasty to break away challenged the entire order and posed a threat to Manchu expansion into China.
Harder to tease out is whether key Korean figures who cooperated with the Manchu before 1636—and those who defected to the Manchu side—actually considered themselves Manchu. Unlike the amorphous area north of the frontier, by the seventeenth century, the Chosŏn dynasty had a defined frontier along the Yalu and Tumen rivers, combined with a distinct political identity extending back several hundred years at least. Those living south of the rivers were subjects of the Chosŏn dynasty. Those who lived across the rivers to the north were Jurchen, Khitan, Mongol, and Han Chinese. Those Koreans who moved across the northern border appeared to have other political identities.
Those Koreans who moved across the northern border appeared to have other political identities. Apparent from Na Man’gap’s diary is that the conflict around the frontier had forced people to move as refugees or as war captives back and forth to the Korean peninsula.
Did Chosŏn people become part of the Qing empire as Manchu or did the Chosŏn court consider those who traveled to the peninsula subjects of the dynasty? This is hard to know as their histories have largely been neglected. Those individuals noted in sources such as the Sillok tended to have language skills, education, or wealth that allowed them to move across political and linguistic borders. Na Man’gap describes some of these people in his diary. As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, captured a number of Chosŏn military men who had fought with the Ming in the northeast regions. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire. […]
As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, captured a number of Chosŏn military men who had fought with the Ming in the northeast regions. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire. »
NOTE : The topic of prisoners of war (after the Byeongjahoran) taken by the Qing is a difficult and not yet too well researched subject. The writer of « My Dearest » seems to be treating it in a conventional interpretation so far, although it is likely that there are more aspects to the topic (as the Manchu motivation for taking people and how many indeed they captured). But this would go beyond the scope of the drama series, I believe, in any case. — Jang Hyeon is obviously a Joseon yangban (if only one of possibly minor importance, from the countryside) who had strong connections to the Jurchen people, certainly as merchant, a livelihood he porbably took up after leaving his father’s house as he was responsible for the death of his older sister. … My current guess … ( as per 16 Ocotber 2023
THIS IS PART 3 OF 5
THE JOSEON COURT, THE BUREAUCRATS, SOCIAL STRATIFICATION IN 16TH C. KOREA
« The Chosŏn court and central bureaucracy in Seoul governed matters of the state through a Confucian lens. Confucian doctrines paid little attention to war or the importance of a well-funded military and were so influential in the fifteenth century that Chosŏn saw little need to defend itself. Theoretically, the ruler held full power over the kingdom atop the social hierarchy. For the first one hundred years of the Chosŏn dynasty, stalwart kings checked bureaucratic power, but, beginning in the sixteenth century, the bureaucracy grew cunning and made decisions based on allegiances, exerting greater control over the rulers. Kings could not stop these political competitions. Those who tried to exercise too much control over the bureaucracy were pushed aside. Within the court, rulers often sat and watched as members of the bureaucracy battled each other over matters great and small. Those in the bureaucracy, the sadaebu, often exerted real authority because kings depended upon them to run the government. Members of the sadaebu were often at odds with one another, which in turn generated political, or factional, strife. »
The sadaebu was the upper echelon of the elite yangban class. Representing only a small percentage of the population, the yangban were the scholarly and military elites, who qualified for office if they passed the government examinations. While the yangban had certain privileges, such as tax exemptions, most were impoverished and held little power. The sadaebu, on the other hand, were the governing group of the court; they continued to succeed in the highest examinations—which gave them access to government positions—and held political control. Below them, the yangin, or commoners, mostly poor peasants, were the majority of the population and carried the burden of paying land taxes and providing corvée and military service. The commoners were the ones who were largely responsible for funding the treasury of a government run by scholar bureaucrats—officials who attacked excess and surplus as supporting immoral choices that would harm the livelihoods of the people. The sadaebu and other yangban should have, in theory, paid taxes, but many yangban did not; it was a tradition that increasingly burdened the commoners. At the bottom of the social hierarchy, nobi, or slaves, were exempt from taxes or other obligations, but they had no privileges. They were considered “base” and “low” (ch’ŏn); their lives were not their own. […] »
THIS IS PART 4 OF 5
THE SITUATION « ON THE GROUND » AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT — POST-IMJIN TO MANCHU BLITZKRIEG
« In the years following the Imjin War, court officials began to improve the economy and build up defenses.30 This included passing early taxation and revenue reforms. Thousands of Koreans had died in the war, and their loss resulted in a severely damaged agricultural system—the base of government taxation and of the livelihood of the people. Routine farming had ceased for six to eight years, devastating food production. It was imperative to maintain rice paddies, as rice farming is an intricate process requiring constant work to maintain the artificial irrigation system. […]
However, domestic and international issues interfered with the rebuilding process. First, political questions arose surrounding King Kwanghaegun’s legitimacy—complicated by his proximity to the Jurchen (aka the Manchu)—that led to clashes with the scholar-official bureaucracy and a coup that culminated in his nephew, King Injo, obtaining the throne in 1623. […]
During the Imjin War, amidst concerns that the king could die without a legitimate heir, King Sŏnjo appointed Kwanghaegun as crown prince, angering one of the political factions, the Westerners (Sŏin), who advocated waiting. An opposing faction, the Great Northerners (Taebugin), supported the decision. King Sŏnjo eventually had two sons by different wives in 1601, but neither was immediately declared crown prince. However, as the children grew, more people began whispering that Kwanghaegun was illegitimate and that King Sŏnjo’s other two sons were the rightful heirs, rumors that threatened Kwanghaegun’s kingship. King Kwanghaegun’s two half-brothers were assassinated, most likely by Kwanghaegun’s supporters, which plunged Kwanghaegun into deep trouble. It was in this fraught political context that the Manchu arrived on the scene. […]
The Manchu were nomadic tribes whose lives were supported by hunting, trapping, and fishing. Some came from a forest environment, others from the plains. In addition to the Manchu, other Jurchen tribes and some Mongols lived in the region north of the Chosŏn frontier. Originally of Jurchen origin, one tribe coalesced around charismatic and militarily powerful leaders, grew into a major federation, and gained the notice of the Ming. By the 1590s, Nurhachi, their leader, emerged as a rising military power and, inspired to revive the Jurchen Jin dynasty (1115–1234) heritage, sought to conquer China for its wealth and resources. Exploiting a weakened Ming, Nurhachi expanded his power into Manchuria in the late 1610s. Based on geographic proximity, Korea was an early concern for the Manchu. As their main objective was China, they had to ensure Korea did not become a hindrance. In 1616, the Ming acted against the Manchu and began preparing for a counterattack, requisitioning thirteen thousand troops from Korea […]
The failed Ming campaign had the added effect of defeating Chinese power in Manchuria. After this loss, the Ming could no longer support Korea, a fact Nurhachi keenly understood. In 1621, all the other towns in Manchuria were captured from the Ming, making the situation even more politically tenuous in Korea. Political factions within the Chosŏn court used the threat of an invasion to gain power and vilify competing parties. The Westerners abhorred the thought of peace with the Manchu, considering them barbarians, while the Southerners urged negotiation. […]
With the Westerners in power, government policy shifted to a pro- Ming stance. King Injo was a weak king dominated by the bureaucratic officials who had enthroned him—a group of politicians belligerent toward the Manchu and supportive of the Ming. They granted Chinese generals access to Chosŏn territory, which the Chinese took advantage of to construct bases on Korean islands along the northwest coast. The Manchu were uneasy with the Ming presence and sent an army into Korea in 1627. […]
Upon recommendation by the Westerners, King Injo reneged on the promises made during the alliance ritual and resumed relations with the Ming once the Manchu troops retreated. In the years after, the Chosŏn court recognized the military disadvantages of the 1627 attack and strengthened key defenses, such as the cavalry, arquebus soldiers, and archers.62 The government built up defenses along the frontier and moved troops to the west and northwest.63 Another consequence of the defensive buildup and pro-Ming stance was that, in time, Ming bases returned to Korean territory. All of these developments indicated to the Manchu that Chosŏn had not severed its ties to the Ming. […]
The incident with Ingguldai marked the end of Manchu attempts at negotiations. In early winter of 1637, roughly fifty thousand Manchu troops crossed the frozen Yalu River and attacked. Unlike in 1627, Korean commanders did not lead the assault. The top Manchu generals, Ingguldai and Mafuta, as well as Emperor Hung Taiji, directed the campaign, indicating the seriousness of Manchu resolve to settle the Korea issue permanently. Like the previous invasion, Manchu troops were unstoppable. The Manchu struck rapidly and within four days reached Seoul. […] »
angelshadows50
December 5, 2023 at 9:45 AM
Trying something new … writing a personal message to someone. — Hi, @kodra, not sure if this works … addressing a personal message to you. Well, personal becomes public, I suppose. Also, it is more of a reflection on where I am at with K-Drama, I guess, so others may read that too.
How is your life, @kodra? Reality has been biting me hard these past several weeks. I guess it was foreseeable, just that I ignored the signs. My life feels like climbing a steep mountain, with several paths to take and strong gusts attempting to blast me off the mountain, at every single step. I can foresee that this will be my reality for about a year … and it makes me fearful.
I used to console myself with the interesting novelty world of K-Drama, but after « My Dearest » pretty much everything has paled in this regard. The depth of emotions in that sageuk was utterly entrancing. And it made me think about precisely this : what is feeling, what is emotion in this world — and in my world ? I don’t have the time or the inclination now to read a lot on the Dramabeans site, although there are always comments which are interesting to me ; it takes a lot of time, and I don’t feel good about dedicating that time leisurely to this when I ought to start solving another piled-up crisis in my life looming on the horizon …
Also, I am noticing that I am becoming more and more my true Self and that my most fundamental beliefs are finding their rightful place. In the course of which I picked up again on this beautiful conversation between Deepak Chopra and Swami Sarvapriyananda from July 6, 2018 at the Rubin Museum of Art in New York City. I know and understand a fair amount about the « Hard Problem of Consciousness » Chopra is referring to, and his introduction to the reality of the Universe is priceless, short, precise, to the point. The scientific knowledge is exactly as he says. Swami Sarvapriyananda has been a favourite teacher for me for a while, from his talks and presentations. Have a look if this is of interest to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEGp9OvWRc&t=15s.
In the context of K-Drama, I am also picking up again a lot from Daniel Tudor’s book Korea—The Impossible Country ; in particular the chapters on the cultural codes, so chapters 7 to 12:
Jeong, The «Invisible Hug» ; Competition ; Chemyon — or Face ; Han and Heung — The Deep Sadness and Pure Joy in the Korean Mind ; From Clan to Nuclear Family ; Neophilia.
I am realising that our world of matter has its particular cultural expressions, which often are not accessible to one another, unless very well explained. I have seen people commenting on trope this and trope that in K-Dramaland, but I am wondering if this is not just another way of portraying the world of matter, reassuring us that everything is as we are expecting in our (limited) awareness.
That last thought is a bit fuzzy, I guess … but I a waning now, as the next task on my list is calling …
Anyhow, let me know how you’re doing, if you find the time. Cheerio.
Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
February 16, 2024 at 5:57 PM
It is a shame there is no option to do direct messages to individual beanies. I have done it by doing a reply to myself on one of my busy older posts and tagging the beanie there so it’s unlikely anyone else would see it is passing.
I hope that things are more settled for you now. The turn of the year or a significant birthday often leads to deeper reflections on how we are using our time and what we want from life.
Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
February 16, 2024 at 5:59 PM
Sorry, I meant to say I saw Kodra’s message to you in the weecap and I came here to check if you were ok because of what they said.
angelshadows50
February 17, 2024 at 12:52 AM
@reply1988, Motherbean, thank you so much for checking. An online community is a somewhat strange unit, as it has no actual place for oneself to fall back onto. One meets wonderful and interesting people, but it is anonymous, so there is a cap on the closeness to be built and the possibility to further the acquaintance. I am in the process of reinventing myself. I am doing better. I am not out of the woods by a long way. I am so very busy now with doing things anew and different from before, so mulling over and sharing my musings with others on Korean dramas has very little spacetime in my life at the moment. I get pulled back into a way of how I do not want to be any longer. Yesterday was an exception that I went to the Dramabeans site and read through all the comments on EP 07 to 10 and pulled myself into commenting. I’ll see if I will be able to pick up that interest again with more dedication or not. The Korean representation of life and existence both historic and contemporary in their dramas is both intriguing and heart-wrenching for an emotional-intellectual person like myself. Does it inform my inner awareness in a healthy way or not? That is the question I am asking myself. — Sorry this is a long and probably deeper response to your warm and precise-short caring.
Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
February 17, 2024 at 1:07 AM
I have no issues with you choosing to share as much or little of your transition. There are times in our life when we benefit from taking time to pause and assess and it’s up to us where we share those reflections.
It is hard to reinvent ourselves and so it important to avoid those elements that can be a distraction from the process or are part of the lifestyle we want to leave behind. I hope you find the balance you need and if sharing ideas with a random online avatar who shares an interest helps I am happy to share this part of your journey for as long as we are both on the site.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 9:28 AM
UPDATE Fri 24 NOV 2023 18h30 German time : Sooo … Viki has updated EP 21 to the extended version, and I am sure the (at the moment missing) English subtitles will be updated soon, too!
Snow Flower
November 24, 2023 at 8:53 PM
Yay!
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 4:23 AM
Herewith the link to the MBC «Yeon-in« episode broadcast in Korea, yesterday. Please see my previous fanwall post and thread for its intention and meaning. File size is 1.9 GB. Resolution 1080p.
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/67afa3652037f395e157120845ffcc2620231124121043/301887841feb78b585ee2126c10e049420231124121102/cd135e
This notification list is in no particular order, just as I remember or look up the names, and think you or your spouse might be interested (or both).
@kodra
@johnb
@kafiyah-bello
@annegray
@nokdudu
@wonhwa
@seeker
@narrativeaddict
@jerrykuvira
@loveblossom
@kiara
@lordcobol
@minniegupta1
@IsaGC
@indyfan
@marysadanaga
@pepelepeu
@MrsBuckwheat
@Qingdao
@dncingemma
@Nefret
@sicarius
@lapislazulii
@NoraL
@kurama
@vishnusa
@WarMan
@attition
@oldawyer
@LaurenSophie
@owl22
@claire2009
@jillian
@nerdy
🌸 Cera (@Seeker) 🌸
November 24, 2023 at 5:08 AM
Thank you 😊
Isa is always time travelling
November 24, 2023 at 5:17 AM
Thank you!! 👏
🌸 Cera (@Seeker) 🌸
November 24, 2023 at 5:56 AM
^^ @attiton
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 6:20 AM
Yeap! I always think it has an additional i … not the first time I have misspelt it 🙂
Kurama
November 24, 2023 at 6:27 AM
Not sure we can share episode on here. I think you should be careful and delete your post.
Kafiyah Bello
November 24, 2023 at 7:25 AM
Thank you, but I’m not sure what this is.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 7:31 AM
If you look at my post before this with the link, you’ll see that it is the Korean file of Yeon-in’s extended final episode, that MBC had broadcast this Thursday, 5 mn to midnight. Additional scenes which make things clearer ; better edited. 9 mn longer.
Kafiyah Bello
November 24, 2023 at 7:57 AM
So you just putting Yeon In is what confused me. I have no idea who that is, so this is the extended episode from My Dearest. Thanks, will check it oiut
Kafiyah Bello
November 24, 2023 at 7:59 AM
Alas, there are no subs and my Korean isn’t good enough to watch, but thank you very much for thinking of me. If you write a synopsis of what is in the extra, I will 100% read it.
Kafiyah Bello
November 24, 2023 at 8:00 AM
HA, nevermind, I am reading now.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 8:11 AM
Sorry, yes, «Yeon-in» is the romanisation of the Hangul 2 character script, means literally «Lover», and became «My Dearest» in English, as that title (Lover) exists for more than one other movie or TV programmes in English.
Kafiyah Bello
November 24, 2023 at 8:52 AM
Oh, I didn’t know that is so interesting, thanks for the impromptu Korean lesson too.🥰😊
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 24, 2023 at 8:13 AM
Thank you! 🤗
jillian
November 24, 2023 at 9:42 AM
Thanks! 😊
Healer’s
November 24, 2023 at 2:24 PM
Thank you!!
kiara
November 25, 2023 at 10:00 AM
Well done @angel! This is dedication! ❤️
LaurenSophie
November 25, 2023 at 1:45 PM
Thank you! I’ve been so busy I just saw this, but am excited to watch the re-edited version of ep. 21.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 3:40 AM
Beanie friends, the following posts are with reference to the extended edition of My Dearest’s last episode, so in fact EP 21 extended.
This programme was aired on Thursday, 23 November, 2023 at 11:55 at night Korean time and was 1h38mn long. Therefore, it is roughly about 9 mn longer than the broadcast episode 21. Apparently the viewership rate was 17.6%! It clears up several loose ends and made timeline and development of the story way clearer, as the production team spent some extra time on better editing.
On the 23rd, MBC also posted on their YouTube channel several new video clips which roughly add up to these 9 minutes. They are under these addresses :
In the extended clip, at position 51’48 mn —Concubine Jo’s horrified and scared face at the discovery of King Injo’s death— there is a commercial break and then the drama continues with clip number one (47 sec long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr3QvpU1g6w
Then the sequence moves over to Gil Chae’s apathy and deep mourning, sitting in her room, tears streaming down her face (as in EP 21). We hear the voice of Nam Yeon-jun. It is not yet clear if he is the author of the 사초 (sacho) report in question from EP 1, the one the newly appointed Jipyeong, 5th rank inspector 이립 (Yi Rip) is asked to examine by 헌영 (Heon Yeong), the scholar official (sadaebu 士大夫) in light rosé attire, probably a 3rd rank court official, who makes Yi Rip wait for several hours (until the sun is about to set), only then does he address him).
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 3:41 AM
[ NOTE : A sacho is a preliminary record by a royal scribe, not to be included in the official records, and once these were written a 사초 would be destroyed.]
[ NOTE 2 : The «current time» of that part of EP 21 is also the Spring of 1659, i.e. around the time of King Hyojong’s passing (he died in May 1659 / lunar calendar, which is being used here) ; Hyojong being the former Prince Bongrim and brother of former Crown Prince Sohyeon, who also spent eight years in Qing captivity).
[ SPOILER ALERT : If you view this new clip and then go back to the initial scenes from EP 1, you will spot the connection apart from the words …. ]
In the VoiceOver in EP 21 —while we see Gil Chae’s grief— Nam Yeon-jun says : That winter, many people, whose lives were often filled with laughter and tears, died. I ranted about creating a world filled with courtesy and loyalty. But what was I able to protect? He continues (and the viewer sees him standing in a room, that may be some years later, so the «current time» of Spring 1659) : What is the Joseon that I protected like? After all this time, the only thing that I have left, is the sound of their laughter, which I will never get to hear again.
The next sequence of scenes moves to the grey-haired Ryan-eum in the dungeon of the Hyeminseo with tears in his eyes, being questioned by Inspector Yi Rip, who snuffs : Do you expect me to believe that ? Everything that the captives, Lee Jang Hyeon, the late Crown Prince, and Thief Kang, the Crown Princess, did together? Ryan-eum replies : It is all true. So please tell me now. What happened to Lee Yang Hyeon?
At this point, clip number two is inserted (1’57 mn long) ; in the extended version at position 53’45 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hd0_npLcak. This is probably the most important of the four clips for understanding all the plot developments.
(1) We see how Ryan-eum is freed from the prison, having been told by Inspector Yi Rip that Lee Jang Hyeon perished; (2) Yi Rip has a conversation with sadaebu Heon Yeong ; and (3) sadaebu Hoen Yeong having a flashback memory on the information from a conversation between King Hyjong and Kim Ja-jeon, whom Hyjong instructs to keep Ryan-eum alive but in prison (Kim Ja-jeon was chief state counsellor from 1645 to 1650, Prince Bongrim became King in May/June 1649, and ruled for 10 years). So this conversation will have taken place some time after May/June 1649.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Then immediately follows clip number three (2’12 mn long) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS_I_vzQ6rM
This is an extended conversation between the two court officials, so I believe this is clearly shortly after Hyjong’s death, June 1659 ; it starts with Yi Rip’s question, who then wrote the 사초 (sacho). With flashbacks on Nam Yeon-jun writing …
Secondly, the former Qing captive, now a Yangban herself, writes to Lady Yoo (Gil Chae), that Ryan-eum (the only know male survivor from that massacre on the beach) was released from prison (a survivor presumably because Jang Hyeon had knocked him unconscious). (The boy in front of her is about 6/7 years old, I would say, which in my book fits the timeline approximately correctly).
[ NOTE : I have not translated this part properly yet (nor the text on the screen), but there are several very meaningful historic-political references in the conversation between the two court officials, in this clip and also some in the previous one. ]
[ NOTE 2 : This letter to Gil-Chae becomes then, I believe, the prompt for her to look for the presumed murderer of her husband, Nam Yeon-jun, and that man’s wife, her best friend, to return to their home, and find him in the process of hanging himself. ] Now this part, which was very abrupt in EP 21, makes sense.
However, before THIS happens, the production team has included clip number four (length of 3’26 mn) into the drama :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U001SoF0_8Q
This beautiful sequence between Gil-Chae and Ryan-eum (in memory of their lover) gives a resolution to their relationship as well, which had been left open because Ryan-eum had disappeared somewhat after being spotted by the viewer in the Hyeminseo. Again, a token and symbol repeatedly representing Jang-Hyun is emphasised here : the fan.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Only at that point the story continues as depicted in EP 21.
Apparently, so @kodra told me, there is some change in the last speech of Jang Hyeon (on the beach with Gil Chae), but I have not compared that as yet.
I will post a wetransfer link to download this extended episode; this link will be available for a week. I shall send an additional notification to all the ones who might want to watch this version in its entirety and want to download it FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. It is not clear, if Kocowa or Viki will pick up this extra episode. Therefore I found a way to have it as it was broadcast in Korea yesterday.
The title of that episode was : 연인 최종회 확장판 — which (apparently) simply means «Yeon-in Final Episode Extended Edition».
DK-Drama 🫘🏆Image of drama FL Character Deterioration🚺🍉🌱
November 24, 2023 at 6:03 AM
You doing this is so cool!
I haven’t been following that show, but how about posting links for these things under the recap of the final – in that way, people who are watching the show later can find it. (Could be me, could be someone else).
I could also be an idea for the link collection under the recaps, but that would involve the admins, and I don’t know how you contact them.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 24, 2023 at 8:12 AM
Thank you so much, it makes so much more sense now.
Viewership rate was 17.6%? That is truly incredible, surpased the weekender ratings, which is something very dificult to achieve with so many shows and platforms.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 8:20 AM
My pleasure. I have to doublecheck that figure again, but that’s what I saw on a Naver site … Also, my Sonix AI transcription and then Google translation gave my quite an amount of gobbledygook, so I need to check the references there again, and come up with a better translation.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 8:24 AM
It’s the weekend, so maybe tomorrow, after cleaning I’ll do some more work on the computer … Also my comment on the boy, thinking about it again, is not quite correct. He needs to be older, more like 10 or 11 … And the letter to Gil Chae was talking about Jang Hyeon, that she had heard something from her brother (that sadaebu) about «community leader Lee» …
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 8:42 AM
Also, I had started to put all Korean srt (and English in parallel) in an Excel, and then separate out the scenes ; I am quite some way down that path for EP 16. Ultimately I want to see, if I find @sicarius‘ criticisms justified or not. But I can only do that, once I have laid out the whole show. Also, @wonhwa‘s summarising analysis (recap EP 20/21) was well thought out, I found. Want to doublecheck that too.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 9:10 AM
You know, @kodra, one more thing this quality show is teaching me : wanting to truly understand the Korean broadcasting scene … How come South Korea can churn out so many shows, and most of them quality, some extremely high quality ? It appears to me to be a unique proposition in today’s world, across the globe. C- and J-drama I presume are NOT on that level… so how come? These anniversary sageuks (like Goryeo-Khitan War) seem to be in that vein for sure.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 24, 2023 at 10:08 AM
I am still amazed by it all, it’s a well oilled machine. Just think about having to film a 100 minute episode in a week! In that time frame, the original episode was still great and I don’t think that in many countries that level can be achieved. I remember reading a comment one chinese actor made (Chen Kun) a few years ago about how the chinese population is so much bigger than SK and of course it has more talent than them. And I beg to differ, in my opinion SK people have a diferrent soul that cannot be taught or imitated and it pours in almost all the shows I see.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 10:17 AM
Yes, I completely agree … from my initial fascination for the «otherness» of that Korean world, I am moving swiftly to an admiration of aspects of profoundness of that Korean world (as in world culture profoundness). It is an absolutely unique mix for such an almost peanut sized country (well a bit exaggerated, but you know what I mean … )
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 10:23 AM
Oh, and this context : when in EP 21 Jang Cheol talks about family, society, values etc. etc. (in comparison to the Barbarians he wanted to keep at bay) I find that very, very telling — also for today’s world and Korean reality. This emphasis on family is extraordinary and a Neoconfucian heritage (with both aspects, good and useless ones). To my knowledge, no other world society has kept it that way …
Elinor is trapped in the timeslip
November 24, 2023 at 11:15 AM
I’d love to hear what you think are the good aspects of Neoconfucianism – and I’m not being sarcastic, I know almost nothing of it except through the distorted lens of Korean dramas, and from that viewpoint it looks like an unmitigated disaster as a set of organizing principles and a source of misery from its inception to modern times. In my *personal* view, most of its precepts are not only useless but also immoral and wrongheaded, but that’s a matter of individual opinion/belief.
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 11:34 AM
@elinor, I only know little about it as yet ; I am working myself into the topic — starting with the Confucian part of it … any belief system (be it societal or spiritual) started off from a very valid point, attempting to change distortions in the world. For now I am assuming that was also so for (Neo)Confucianism, and what I know so far, that is the case. Let’s talk about this (huge) topic in more detail when I get a way more thorough understanding than I have at present. Does that work for you?
Elinor is trapped in the timeslip
November 24, 2023 at 9:06 AM
@angelshadows50
THANK YOU so much for your detailed explanations! It looks like the extended episode is now on Viki with subs – I checked the first couple of added clips, and the episode length has changed to 1:38. Your descriptions make both the added scenes and the episode overall so much clearer. Fantastic work!
angelshadows50
November 24, 2023 at 9:12 AM
Yeah, great !! Thanks for the info.
loveblossom🌸
November 24, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Thanks for the info!!
Snow Flower
November 24, 2023 at 5:39 PM
Thank you for this! I just finished Episode 20, so your notes on the extended scenes in the final episode will be very useful.
angelshadows50
November 23, 2023 at 4:01 PM
Hi, @kodra, I just noticed that MBC broadcast last night (November 23, 11:55 PM) an extended version of the final episode of My Dearest, about 9 mn longer, which explains some of the other characters (so the questions some of us had rightly posed). Some of that seems to be posted as clips onto the YouTube channel site … but I don’t think it’s all of the 9 mn. Have a look : https://program.imbc.com/mydearest and YouTube at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U001SoF0_8Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr3QvpU1g6w , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS_I_vzQ6rM , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hd0_npLcak
Actually they might be all, it’s just not absolutely clear where they put it in place in EP 21.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 23, 2023 at 5:00 PM
Thank you, I am happy they had more time to better edit this episode. I already posted about it earlier. I “saw” it live on twitter and I got to understand some of it because the posts can be translated on twitter. Pretty much of what I understood: RE is told that JH is dead and he is released; he goes and sees GC and she says that she is jelous of the time they spent together (RE amd JH) and offers to live with her to remember JH together but RE leaves with JH’s fan; the inspector that releases RE is actually the baby the captive was left with, she is a noble now and that man is her brother. And I think JH says something extra in that last scene and they changed the end song with a more hopeful one. Kocowa didn’t have it thus far and we might never get to see this extended version. If I find it, I will let you know.
angelshadows50
November 23, 2023 at 5:06 PM
@kodra, yes please do, thank you! I just put the four clips through my sonix AI transcription software … but you give me more info than I could work out so far. I’ll have to have a look on Twitter then too …
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 5:53 AM
REVISED VERSION (less typos and extended comment)
@kodra, I just re-watched EP 20 for the third time today … what a brilliant episode! Regardless of the outcome in EP 21 and if that were «scraps of the cutting table» as some said, to elaborate on the various relationships from this drama by extension with another episode is worth it in my view.
There are several scenes I want to hint at (without wanting to spoil for people who read this and have not seen EP 20 yet), but here are two in particular :
1) the interaction between King and Jang Hyeon, then including Ingguldai:
mimic and gestures of the actor portraying the king are excellent when he and the interpretor are alone. — When it is the three of them the whole dialogue points to the fundamental problem of the times and the ultimate humanity which even the Qing dignitary shows now. It reminded me of the scene where Hong Taiji asked why they loved that king so much …. (That was outside his tent in the war camp outside the fortress).
And then he later commented to his daughter that their people ought to learn that … (he had said so before in his throne room, too)
That links to the storyline around 2) the emerging clear ideological and humanitarian frontline between Lee Jang Hyeon and Nam Yeon-jun, his father’s disciple. Isn’t that a fantastic dialogue? And then Jang Hyeon’s statement … I fully agree, the writer makes a clear political (and social) statement here, one that reverberates into today’s time!
I am reading at the moment a selection of accounts on Korea’s history and in one of them, there is the statement that Korea, with all its tragedies, has prevailed because of its Buddhist and Neoconfucian heritage, which are —so to speak— in the DNA of the peoples. Isn’t this dialogue something to really savour … alongside this comment?
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 18, 2023 at 9:33 AM
I don’t think it was “scraps of the cutting table” but then again, I am not troubled by many things others are and other issues are important to me when watching and loving a drama. I think she gave a great ending, one that was planned from the beginning because of the way she set it up already in previous episodes, preparing us for it. But one that will be trashed here, for sure 🤣
On the humanity subject, I believe that is more about the inhumanity of King Injo more than the humanity of Qings. They (the higher ups) made enough money off of them already up to that point and with them winning over mings and moving their headquarter in Beijing I believe they did not see the use of keeping them hostage any longer. Which superpower were the joseons side with from then on? I would not agree to see this as an act of humanity after all they did to joseons and ming and is like saying that how great is the USA, for example, for being charitable with the refugees after distroying a country to get all the resources. They were great diplomats and great for their people. Also, let’s not forget that when Joseon came to power it was led by a general and his fighter son just like the Qings and probably many of new empires. And, as time goes on, people forget what they fought for and become ruled by these used up kings for a long time until their dinasty eventually ends. And it happened later to the qings, right? I think it was just a statement that he regarded non fighter rulers as unworthy of being loved by his people because, well, he was one. But maybe I missing something and hope you will explain it further.
About point 2, I am fully in agreement with you.
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 11:13 AM
@kodra, yeah, re (1) I have to formulate that afresh … I am not clear enough what I wanted to say I think. I’ll take your reply as a starting point and will come back to you at another time. Just finished watching EP 21. Yes, the writer did set it up like this from the beginning as you say, also my impression.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 18, 2023 at 12:29 PM
Sure, I would love to debate further the subject. This weekend is pretty busy on my wnd also, monday I will have more time to formulate better my thoughts.
Until then I want to send you a very packed article with that period that can be searched further. At the beginning has a long list of articles that used the s-city diary. It’s a very long one and with valuable info from what I gathered reading so far.
https://s-space.snu.ac.kr/bitstream/10371/66835/1/%EB%B3%91%EC%9E%90%ED%98%B8%EB%9E%80%20%EC%A7%81%ED%9B%84%281637~1644%29%20%E6%9C%9D%E6%B7%B8%20%EA%B4%80%EA%B3%84%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C%20%E2%80%98%E6%B7%B8%E8%AD%AF%E2%80%99%EC%9D%98%20%EC%A1%B4%EC%9E%AC.pdf
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 12:43 PM
Thanks for the article! I’ll go through it. I also have very little time to think and formulate ideas at the moment (in the middle of a house renovation which is NOT going well… plus tons of to do’s on the list 🙁 But we’ll do that …
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 2:58 AM
@kodra — having seen EP 20 now of «My Dearest» : you were spot on with that historical-dramatic comparison! It will take a while longer for me to really look at this sageuk accurately and in depth…
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 18, 2023 at 4:34 AM
Did you see her distancing JH from the real translator? She mentions him out of the blue a couple of times. I guess she had to do that because they were to similar, she inspired JH completely after him as what he did in S city but gave him a good guy twist. Loved the whole show, loved mostly how she portrayed the CP. I can love this CP and not what they let us believe him to be for centuries. She is making a political statement, she is showing us the korean version of him, none of that fake christian martyr nonsense that has been falsely attached to his name. She really gave the CP his life back. Love her and the show!
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 5:34 AM
@kodra, I just re-watched EP 20 for the third time today … what a brilliant episode! Regardless of the outcome in EP 21 and if that were «scraps of the cutting table» as some said, to elaborate on the various relationships from this drama by extension with another episode is worth it in my view.
There are several scenes I want to hint at (without wanting to spoil for people who read this and have not seen EP 20 yet):
1) the interaction between King and Jang Hyeon, then including Ingguldai:
mimic and gestures of the actor portraying the king are excellent when he and the translator are alone. — When it is the three of them the whole dialogue points to the fundamental problem of the times and the ultimate humanity which even the Qing dignitary shows now. It reminded me of the scene where Hong Taiji asked why the loved that king so much …. (That was out side tent in the war camp outside the fortress).
That links to the storyline around 2) the emerging clear ideological and humanitarian frontline between Lee Jang Hyeon and Nam Yeon-jun, his father’s disciple. Isn’t that a fantastic dialogue? And then Jang Hyeon’s statement … I fully agree, the writer makes a clear political (and social) statement here, one that reverberates into today’s time!
I am reading at the moment a selection of accounts on Korea’s history and in one of them, there is the statement that Korea, with all its tragedies, has prevailed because of its Buddhist and Neoconfucian heritage, which are —so to speak— in the DNA of the peoples. Isn’t this dialogue something to rally savour … alongside this comment?
angelshadows50
November 18, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Maybe this episode should carry the title A Drop of Ink in a Pool of Clear Water … I suspect, by the way, that this has been written somewhere at the time in some historic account as statement …
angelshadows50
November 11, 2023 at 4:59 AM
Diary entry re My Dearest on Saturday, November 11, 2023. Episode 18 aired last night ; I could see the English subtitled version this morning on Viki Europe.
Random comment alongside: Today, November 11th, is also the start of the carnival season in my neck of the woods : 11.11 at 11 AM … People started drinking at 8 AM [ sad smiley ] because the date falls onto a Saturday … only a few are genuinely and happily celebrating with little or no alcohol …
Now, finally, I am beginning to understand the overall procedure of the writer, how she laid out the storytelling and why she laid it out the way she did.
There have been, so far, two large parts to the drama I could not match up flawlessly :
the epic love story with its archetypical and also very modern and mature (in terms of relationship) undertones — and the historic events portrayed : such as the war events themselves, Joseon court’s and the King’s reactions, the social and political fallout for Joseon people after the war, be they court officials in Joseon, Shenyang Hall in Mukden/Shenyang/Shimyang, or the yanban, peasants and nobi, both in Qing and Joseon, and the reasonings and views of the New Masters in Town, the Qing and their needs from Joseon while in the process of overthrowing the 200-year long stable Ming Empire.
There had been early on a concept for the drama published by MBC on the drama’s website. It focused on the events between a man and a woman —so, the love story. When I put it through Google Translate at the time, it appeared still completely cryptic to me. Obviously, translating Hangul with a machine-learning AI, is only a crude way of transposing the Korean language into English ; there is always a lot of interpretation needed —almost impossible for someone who does not have a good command of the language. Korean —as Japanese— seems to be a largely context-driven language, way more so than European languages, where grammatical structure and individual words are already laying out where the language-logic is heading. (However, please also note my previous comment on the poverty of the English language (or all other European languages) when it comes to «(E)Valuing» (by naming) what kind of «Love» we are talking about exactly … see here: https://www.dramabeans.com/2023/11/my-dearest-episode-17/#comment-4136564
So— … when MBC published the following text as concept for the drama, I was lost, scratching my head : What DO they mean? Even after studying the writer’s comments in her interview from March 2023, I did not understand much more, while watching the drama. So, now, in the penultimate episodes, I am starting to get a better sense … and I will attempt an interpretative translation of the concept, and explain briefly thereafter.
One can find the concept here : https://program.imbc.com/Concept/mydearest.
Or if you go to the Korean website [ https://program.imbc.com/mydearest ], it’s under the first tab «프로그램 소개 » [Program Introduction].
Here is the Hangul text :
내 인생에 사랑은 없다, 당당하게 비혼을 선언한 사내가 내 남자는 내 손으로 쟁취하리라, 야심차게 선언한 여인을 만나 벼락같은 (짝)사랑에 빠진다. 하지만 때는 병자년, 조선이 청군의 말굽에 짓밟히는 병화를 겪으며 여자의 운명이 급류에 휘말려 떠밀려가고, 흘러가는 여인 따라, 사내의 운명도 걷잡을 수 없이 휘청거린다. 세상 모든 일에 자신만만했으나 자신이 사랑에 빠지면 어떻게 변하는지도 몰랐던 어리석은 사내, 세상 모든 사내의 마음을 사로잡고서도 자신이 진짜 연모하는 사람이 누군지 깨닫지 못했던 어리석은 여인. 사랑에 한없이 어리석었던 이 사내와 여인, 과연 사랑을 이룰 수 있을까? 아니, 살아남을 수 있을까?
This is my attempt at a «smoothed out» (slightly interpretative) English translation :
There is no love in my life, [she confirms]. [Yet at the same time,] there is a man who proudly announces he doesn’t intend to get married.
I will choose my man myself ! she declares [defiantly].
He, now, meets an ambitious woman and falls in love like lightening.
But it is Pyeonga’s year [the year of the Fire Rat],
And Joseon is suffering from war, being trampled upon by the horses’ hooves of the Qing army.
The woman’s fate is caught in the torrent and washed away,
[yet] following the woman’s flow,
her man’s fate also spirals out of control.
I was confident in everything in the world, [he says]
But I didn’t even know how things change when I fall in love!
Foolish man!
Even though she captures the heart of every man crossing her path,
She did not realise whom she really loved.
Foolish woman!
This man and this woman who were infinitely foolish with love,
Can love really be achieved?
No— will they be able to survive?
My beanie friends, you might agree, that this concept can mean a lot of things ; paired with the writer’s declaration of using the «Gone With the Wind» narrative for her story, I was not the much wiser— as it seemed, for several episodes, that she was using the Selznick film as a kind of carbon copy for her story.
However, as the drama moved along, and especially after the hiatus from Part 1 to Part 2 —and the extremely confusing timeline at the beginning of Part 2— I finally realised what she had meant.
I am referring to her explanation she gave in her interview that there are a lot of difficult topics in Korean history, the Pyjeongahoran ( the Second Manchu Invasion ) being only one of them, but that it could be handled by using an (epic) love narrative as the connecting element for all plot lines ( such a narrative Mitchell had used for «Gone With the Wind», however with way less plot lines connecting, and, in the end, in quite a different manner ).
My impression is that the writer has largely succeeded with her concept and her intention.
Now what remains to be seen is the answer to the last question in the concept : Will they be able to survive?
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 11, 2023 at 8:57 AM
Foolish, indeed! But aren’t we all are when young?
“there are a lot of difficult topics in Korean history….but that it could be handled by using an (epic) love narrative…”
Do you get the feeling that by not showing us some parts she actually is making a statement in her known subtle way and all of it disguised and packaged in one of the most beautiful love story?
angelshadows50
November 11, 2023 at 9:43 AM
@kodra, I just watched a download I have (w/o subtitles at the moment) of EP 19 … « subtle way » indeed!! On the personal story, certainly ; on the political story, maybe also for reasons of practicality and cost ; also, what would if have added to her and our understanding of the historic events if she would have staged a filmed meeting between the Crown Prince and the Jesuit priest in Beijing? — It would have, in my view, just opened another avenue, and not one she wanted to go down. This way now, she has kept the story tight, I think, without loosing the essential element post-Manchu War, about how, in Joseon, the Joseon people reacted, and how the Court reacted to these events. After all it is a Korean drama, attempting to be «objective» about the Korean viewpoint and interpretation without loosing sight of, for example, the Manchu point of view. THAT is very nicely done, in my opinion. Having seen so many episodes now, I know @sicarius had said that there were some unnecessary bits, but looking back, I do not think so. It all makes sense to me right now.
angelshadows50
November 11, 2023 at 9:51 AM
Also, I think the actor who plays King Injo deserves a lot of praise! Also the actors who play some of the senior court officials. They were support roles, but excellently portrayed. I also do not agree with @kiara that Sohyeon is portrayed weakly here. It is correct in my view that the fictionalised character of Jang Hyeon is getting a lot of the praise for decisions and actions, but it is also true in my opinion, that the Crown Prince did have advisors to whom he listened, and did grow because of what he experienced. The latter is clearly visible in My Dearest throughout.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 11, 2023 at 10:45 AM
I agree about the actor playing Injo, as most of them did a great job. You should see the crown princess today, magnificant performance, I was moved and really felt her pain.
I think the writer portrayed very well the love they had for eachother, the fact that they did do as much as they could ( or what were actually permited by the qings and Injo to do) to help those people and to prevent another war, even if that meant also listening to advice given by a man that had influence with the qings. There is no doubt why he stayed there for so long, why everyone bribed him and got promoted once he returned. Sohyeon was weak and easy to influence and that is why Injo and the westerners were afraid of him.
The story starts with documents that should not have been written and, by that, a true history that has not been revealed.
kiara
November 11, 2023 at 12:22 PM
It’s ok to disagree. I enjoy this the most—sharing what we know and our opinions like adults. This is why I love watching sageuks. Unfortunately, most of the sageuk club are no longer interested in the show, and I don’t blame them, but I’m here for the bitter end, even if I have to skim through it.
@angelshadows50, I don’t have a problem with Sohyeon, the actor. He is fantastic! I have a problem with downgrading him in Qing, but I understand that he is not the lead character—Sohyeon was in direct conflict with the Qing officials, especially going head to head with Inggūldai. There are many unofficial records of him since not much was written about him except in Injo’s sillok.
Yes, he did have advisors, but that doesn’t mean he was a sitting duck in Qing like in this drama.
angelshadows50
November 11, 2023 at 1:27 PM
@kiara, can you get me links or references to these unofficial records for Sohyeon when you have time? It’s not urgent, … really only when you get the time to send me links or lit. references. I want to follow up on him at some point in the future, because what I have seen so far is quite disparate. Thx. a million 🙂 🙂
kiara
November 12, 2023 at 5:58 AM
@angelshadows50,
Most of what I have is from a decade ago, before “Cruel Palace” came out, based mainly on Concubine Jo.
Unfortunately, I didn’t keep the links, but there were references from The Seungjeongwon and articles that didn’t make the cut in the official Annals. There were also the Journals of Korean History Studies conducted by local university scholars, but they stopped translating them into English, so I lost all that info.
I’ll try to find links, but I’m sure we have more information now than we had 10-20 years ago. Even Wikipedia didn’t have much on K-history, but they do now.
I love learning from Korean sources back in the day. Now, we have a lot of studies from outside sources, which is excellent, but most are not well-versed, and you can tell when you read articles from an outsider looking in compared to the local references.
Let me know when you start searching, and I’ll do it with you.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 11, 2023 at 10:20 AM
On the political story I believe is more that she didn’t want to go that way, I feel there is not a that way at all in some korean circles and that if even there was a meeting, it did not mean anything to CP or his tragic end. I couldn’t find published articles that cite written sources confirming that Injo thought the captives were part of the CP’s rebelious army. Maybe there are but didn’t have the time to go on the rabbit hole. I did find an article though that explains the Sim Kiwŏn’s Revolt and I understood better Inju’s paranoia with the CP. It appears that the qings wanted to swap Injo with the CP and Injo among other things. The real life JH interpreter appears in the article again showing how influencial he was with the qings.
I also feel that she needed to show all the work the real life interpreter did at that time, so the whole S-city arc was used for that together with GC captive crises. She needed them to be single and I understand that it was boring to many but she really wanted to know of him. I concentrated more on GC and didn’t realize it at that time.
https://ijkh.khistory.org/upload/pdf/12-01.pdf
angelshadows50
November 10, 2023 at 9:27 AM
Diary entry re My Dearest on Friday, November 10, 2023. While we are waiting for the next episode of the historic drama to be screened tonight, I would like to make a few further remarks with regards to the character GAK HWA.
@kiara has already given details for this character’s most likely real-life inspiration, Lady MAKATA 馬喀塔 of the Aisin Gioro clan. Her full personal name in Chinese ist 爱新觉罗 馬喀塔 — which translates as Aison Gioro Makata (so in reverse order).
Having arrived at episode 18 of My Dearest, I can now understand, why the writer fictionalised this Qing princess as a pivotal (support) character —and it makes now sense to me. It is, in my view, one very valid way to dramatise the story and moved it along as the writer has. It fits the timeline perfectly.
In «My Dearest» out of boredom, this Qing princess hunts escapees. That’s how Jang Hyeon and she cross paths in the first instance, in 1642 approximately. The real-life Makata was half-Mongol (her father, Hong Taji, was Manchu, her mother was Mongol). If you remember what was said in the drama about the Mongol soldiers in the Manchu war, you understand my remark. The Gak Hwa in the drama has a wild and merciless side to her personality. In summer 1642, Makata was 17 years old, and a widow for one year. It is likely that she would have been married off by her father to strengthen his position in the Mongolian Plateau after March 1636, when all Mongol chieftains from a total of sixteen clans and forty-nine subclans gathered at Mukden/Shenyang and gave their allegiance to Hong Taiji. Erke Khongghor —also know as Ejei Khan— had surrended. Makata had been married to Ejei Khan since 1636; he passed in 1641.
Of course a 17-year old Makata does not gel well with the actress’s age who plays Gak Hwa. But that has been a problem with the male and female leads as well. Yet no appropriately young actor/actress would have been able to portray the complexities of these three characters, so I for one, do not mind too much. I prefer the depth of portrayal I find with all actors and actresses.
In the drama Gak-Hwa confides in Jang-Hyeon that she had killed her husband. It is suggested that he had just used her, once, and she had punished him with death for disregarding her and trapping her in a marriage he was not willing to live. (Also, they would not have consummated the marriage before she was 15/16, so in 1639/1640). If this is historically accurate for Lady Makata is, I believe, not known. Yet again, it fits the drama’s character. Once her father dies in September 1643 —Gak-Hwa / Makata is now 18 years old— she sides with the prince Regent Dorgon, who values her support because she has the women of the Qing court under her control, as General Ingūlldai makes clear to Jang Hyeon (in episode 16). In episode 17 Gak-Hwa boasts towards Jang Hyeon that the Prince Regent needs her and (still) relies on her a lot.
However her remark is counteracted by the two Qing nobles on the hunt passing her and Jang Hyeon in the woods. It becomes clear that the (male) Qing court regards her —a mere woman after all— as a nuisance who needs to get married off again quickly. I am quite convinced that this can be a fair interpretation by the writer of Makata’s real-life situation.
Now, in episode 18 we are in May 1645.
Lady Makata was married off in 1645 to the younger brother of her first husband. However, it was again a marriage à la raison d’état : Abunai (阿布奈) was 10 years her junior, so he was 10 years old in 1645! Their first son, Borni (布尔尼), was born in 1654 ; her second son, Lubuzung (罗布藏. With the marriage, Abunai became Prince Chahar of the First Rank (察哈尔亲王) ; he and both his sons with Lady Makata died in 1675, after a failed attempt of him and Chahar Mongols to rebel against the Qing emperor. The Qing dynasty’s punishment of the rebellion was very harsh: all royal males of Chahars were executed, including infants born to Qing princesses, and all royal females of Chahars were sold to slavery except these Qing princesses.
Lady Makata died aged 37/38 in 1663. In 1657, during the reign of Shunzi, she had been granted the title «Princess of the First Rank (固倫長公主)» —something the two Qing hunters mention mockingly in episode 17, that Gak Hwa had demanded that of Dorgon, the Prince Regent.
In 1659, she was named Imperial Princess Yongning of the First Rank (固倫永寧長公主), and posthumously the title Princess Wenzhuang, of the First Rank (固倫溫莊公主) was bestowed.
Lastly, also, a word with regards to her mother : Jerjer (哲哲) of the Khorchin Mongol Borjigit clan became Hong Taji’s married Hong Taji in May 1614 (at 15 years of age) and became one of his many wives. In 1623 Hong Taiji divorced his second primary consort, and elevated Jerjer to the position.
Jerjer gave birth in 1625 to Hong Taiji’s second daughter, Makata (Princess Wenzhuang of the First Rank), on 2 August 1628 to his third daughter, Princess Jingduan of the First Rank, and on 7 October 1634 to his eighth daughter, Princess Yong’an of the First Rank.
After Hong Taji’s death she became Empress Dowager, and when she died end of May 1649 she was posthumously honoured with the title Empress Xiaoduanwen (孝端). The full title is : Empress Xiaoduan Zhengjing Renyi Zheshun Cixi Zhuangmin Futian Xiesheng Wen (孝端正敬仁懿哲順慈僖莊敏輔天協聖文皇后).
«Jerjer» translates in fact as «lady» or «beauty» ; and if you look at the portrait from the 17th century here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:《孝端文皇后朝服像》.jpg she was really beautiful ! So it is likely that her daughters were too, and it is also likely that this was one good reason why Hong Taji loved his daughter very much (at least if one goes by the interpretation in the drama).
john
November 10, 2023 at 10:27 AM
She was beautiful. Very nice portrait.
Kodra aka Qanon something
November 10, 2023 at 10:29 AM
I am happy to hear that the princess arc makes sense to you also. I have watched her, and also RE, from her pov and I understand, at least, her motivations and actions. The writer does know how to thread her story, she needed someone that can control JH both in personal and non-personal business, someone that would and could go crazy for him ( a young beautiful princess with power but not loved so far, one that couldn’t really have an affair with men from her tribe or mongols as she knew she will get married soon; talk about a real noona, she had to wait a few yrs for her husband to grow in RL) and one that can or not help him with the captives that have become even more important now, at the end.
The mom looks gorgeous in the painting bit I think she was just as beautiful in real life. It probably had something to do with the genes, HT married 6 women from the same clan, some of them relatives and I think it had to do with their beauty. Most likely the princess was just as beautiful like her mom and just as determined as her father. She managed to keep her mongols under control until she died but afterwards her husband and two boys rebelled against her own family and got themselves killed. And, like a lesson we can learn only from real history, the mongols became captives just as the joseons they had humiliated a few decades ago.
kiara
November 10, 2023 at 10:52 AM
Thank you so much for going into detail. I love this!
I will return to episode 1 and add more historical references when the show is over. It was overwhelming, so I just skimmed through it in the beginning. I’m keeping the current in order on my fanwall to add more later.
– I figured after reading up on Tatara Inggūldai that the name of the tribe one belongs to comes first. I do believe Makata was Hong Taiji’s favorite, too. I like how the writer highlighted the Chahar Mongols because they were the last ones tied to the Yuan royalty. Hong Taiji’s claim as a legitimate emperor happened after acquiring the Yuan imperial seal from the Chahars in 1634/35, as mentioned in the drama. Makata’s marriage solidified her father’s rule and united the past and current power.
EPISODE 17
-I didn’t like what those ungrateful soldiers said about her and her marriage. She also married for her people and to keep the Chahars in check.
-I thought it was interesting that Jang Hyun met Gil Chae and Gak-Hwa when they were around 16.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 6:07 AM
Following a few remarks I picked up from George Kallender’s intro to the « Diary of 1636 » (mentioned before) which I found interesting and useful for the conversation on « My Dearest » :
ONE—
« In contemporary North and South Korean historiography, the first attack in known as “the invasion of the cyclical year 1627” and the second as the “invasion of the cyclical year 1636-1637.” THESE ATTACKS WERE SEISMIC EVENTS IN CHOSON HISTORY WITH LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.
Thet fortified anti-Manchu sentiment, stimulated proto-national consciousness, and BEGAN A PROCESS THAT WOULD TURN KOREANS AWAY FROM THE OVER-GLORIFICATION OF CHINESE CIVILIZATION to focus their attention on cultural developments in Korea. »
TWO—
« Na may have also underestimated the extent to which the diary could serve as a source for Manchu and Chinese history.
The work describes the early period of Manchu development and expansion around the activities and personalities of key Manchu figures—such as Hung Taiji and his family members who accompanied him to Korea, and top Manchu generals Ingguldai and Mafuta—who appear frequently throughout the diary. Of course, New Qing History contests the notion of “Manchu” identity today, especially regarding the formative period in the early decades of the seventeenth century.
Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.
Still, HE DESCRIBES A TIME WHEN THE MANCHU STRUGGLED WITH IDENTITY— WHEN TO ACT MORE CONFUCIAN AND WHEN TO ACT MORE JURCHEN—as they moved beyond their homelands and collided with other groups, most importantly the Ming Chinese–oriented worldview of the Chosŏn. The diary shows some key concepts that appear to be unique or specific to their Jurchen or Manchu culture, such as the forced intermarriage of the Manchu and Korean elites, the stealing of horses, and the interior arrangement of Hung Taiji’s military tent. However, it also reveals that, AS EARLY AS 1636, THE MANCHU BEGAN DEFTLY ADOPTING CONFUCIAN RHETORIC AND CONCEPTS IN THEIR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE CHOSŎN DYNASTY, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN THEM. »
THREE— That can be seen in EP 14 ….
« As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, CAPTURED A NUMBER OF CHOSŎN MILITARY MEN WHO HAD FOUGHT WITH THE MING IN THE NORTHEAST REGIONS. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire.»
owl 🦉 🫰
October 22, 2023 at 6:59 AM
@angelshadows50, thank you for the historical background and attention to detail. I am inspired to go to the library to find a book on earlier Korean history. What I’ve read is more recent history. You took this drama and ran with it!
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 7:38 AM
My pleasure, @owl. I am really glad that my posts here have inspired you to do so. When I discovered Korean dramas not too long ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of «otherness» I experienced. I found it utterly intriguing. «Other» from what I knew and had learnt so far … I have no family connection to Korea and so it was a far-away and even geopolitical tiny place about which I had not cared in particular. When I read praises about the « 500 years of (steady) Joseon history » I was somewhat intrigued. By now I have learnt that « steadfastness » came at a price too, and that this place did undergo the same trials and tribulations as the rest of the human world. I often quote the shorthand version, Yuval Noah Harari uses for this: famine, plague and war. Just the Korean experiences and answers, as portrayed in contemporary and period drama series, seemed to really interest me now. I still can’t answer why, like others here, I too watch almost exclusively K-Drama now. I love films and watched a lot in the past. I learn from films. I also have learnt a few years ago, why I cannot watch certain types of storytelling, of which South Korea, until recently, did not seem to do a lot: violence as in pure portray of violence ; or horror, or necrophilic portrays. I literally cannot watch that because it affects me too much, physically and mentally, as I am what Elaine Aron calls an HSP.
But I can unravel the intricacies of history, art, metaphor. I love doing that. Time jump, past life etc. experiences portrayed in K-drama feel real to me, genuine ; I can relate to that. Also, all K-dramas I have seen so far took their time to develop a story, and it was not totally angst, relationship hardship without any reason and violence for violence’s sake. Most K-dramas I saw had a soul, if I may phrase it that way. American movies/series, be they the Christian (Hallmark) or blockbuster variety seem of a stereotyping which I find much less interesting, soulless … maybe. I used to watch them a lot.
So I, too, am going backwards and forwards in Korean history. I started with Dong Yi. That was the sageuk which has inspired me most so far. « My Dearest » is a close second, moving fast to number one.
Oh, and yes, there was a really good 5-part documentary about South Korea on French/German Arte a few years back, which I recorded and recently watched again. The Koreans are portrayed as « creative » peoples … I like that idea.
owl 🦉 🫰
October 22, 2023 at 8:07 AM
Ah, good sound reasoning behind the intrigue of K-dramas for those of us who have shifted our viewing to them almost exclusively.
I don’t know how to upload a picture in this thread, but I’ve posted a book on my wall that I am reading. It is dense and fact packed, but very interesting. The acknowledgements highlight the importance of interviews of village elders combined with info from the Dept of Anthropology at Seoul U and Korean Studies.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 8:50 AM
Great! I’ll have a look. Thank you.
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 7:46 AM
Great job, @angelshadows50!
“Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.”
While writing his journal, Hong Taiji barely declared himself emperor and changed Jurchen to Manchu and their new language in 1635. Na was a part of a court that was anti-Jin (Qing).
I wonder what would have happened if they accepted Nurhaci’s help with the Japanese Invasion.
It would have been advantageous for a small country like Joseon to have more allies than enemies, but they put all their eggs in one basket (Ming).
Only Gwanghae saw these invasions coming and did something about it, but he had to be dragged off the throne because he was seen as siding with the enemy.
The suffering of the people could have been avoided.
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 7:51 AM
Our poor crown prince is another Gwanghae in the making. I wonder if he should have waited for his father to die first before introducing his ideas and plan for the future.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 7:54 AM
Have you seen a good sageuk on Gwanghae?
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 8:07 AM
I’m still waiting for a good sageuk on Gwanghae. Diving deep into a controversial figure is difficult without riling up the historians and viewers.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 8:54 AM
Hmm, yes, I see what you’re saying. It is also difficult to do because if it becomes too «documentary» people might feel lost. «Yeon-in» does —I presume intentionally— NOT do that but sticks to the historical events at that time AND then uses the human-interest «eternal» yet star-crossed love as red threat (starting with Gil-Chae’s dream) ; yet, as I said in the recap threat, one needs to know a lot to understand a lot, I find. But it’s fun to fin stuff out …. So that’s okay.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 9:05 AM
Maybe the Dramabeanies could start a list of really good sageuks, which King/Period, and why the beanie contributor thinks its particularly good … Isn’t there a section where this could be done? Mimi puts hearts against her selection …
Snow Flower
October 22, 2023 at 8:15 PM
A good Gwanghae sageuk is my dream drama. Starring Jang Hyuk, of course.
angelshadows50
October 23, 2023 at 8:00 AM
Don’t we have a few writers in the beanie community? Let’s start an ideas sheet for it ….
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 5:37 AM
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 5:36 AM
Ladies and gents, in case you are wondering (as I was) which battle Hong Taji was referring to in EP 14 (34’39 mn of 1’28’53 mn) I did again some digging. I haven’t found any precise information yet about which battle at mount Song he refers to (when it took place exactly in 1643) but I found some interesting info re the fact that they were fighting the Ming at the southeastward point in the Ming Empire: my feeling is that it was due to the fact that it is one of the five mythical mountains (or rather mountain ranges) of China, with huge symbolic meaning. Songshan is a sacred place of Chinese Taoism, the birthplace of Buddhism where the Shaolin Temple is located, and the birthplace of Chinese Neo-Confucianism.
I am adding the names of the five mountains/mountain ranges and a screen cut-out from Korean Wikipedia with their names. So here is :
숭산 / 嵩山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/숭산_(산) [Song Shan]
항산 / 恒山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/항산 [Heng Shan]
태산 / 泰山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/태산 [Tai Shan]
화산 / 華山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/화산_(중국) [Hua Shan]
형산 / 衡山 wikipedia KO : https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/형산 [Heng Shan ; same English transliteration but different Chinese ideogramme]
In a way they form a five-pointed star pattern, if you look at the map. Possibly representing the five elements … but I have not looked into the mythological/symbolic meaning of the mountains in China ; I did some of that for Korea, when I researched Jirisan for example. Korea took over the Chinese cultural concept of the five mountains with mythological/symbolic meanings (the concept is represented in the screen backdrop which you see often behind the Joseon King in the Throne Room).
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 6:52 AM
I should say eastward point really, not southeastward … but you know what I meant … 🙂
Ghost of Tim (eccentric observations from a male perspective)
October 22, 2023 at 2:37 PM
You had me at “digging”. Well done!
kiara
October 23, 2023 at 6:52 PM
Love the little details!
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 11:24 AM
@dncingemma, I replied to your comments, but forgot to put your DB id in front of it, so it would not turn up in your list. You\’ll just have to go to the entries where you commented I think…
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 12:07 AM
@dncingemma, that\’s just a short Korean phrase and my method using an Excel spreadsheet … if you have an idea on how to improve on the romanisation …
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 12:43 AM
Dear DancingEmma, I would like to pick up this conversation later. Unfortunately I need to go now, start my day. It would be really good to find a working solution. 🙂
DancingEmma
October 17, 2023 at 2:13 AM
Sure thing!🙂
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 12:06 AM
DancingEmma
October 17, 2023 at 2:23 AM
Just an important pronunciation point: In Korean, the ‘ㅇ‘ at the end of a syllable has the nominal sound of ‘ng’ but the ‘g’ is almost swallowed and should not be tantamount to ‘going’ ending.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 7:06 AM
Lastly, as for the part on social stratification : This is also important, I feel, for « My Dearest ». Mimi gives a wonderful overview on that as well (her blogsite talkingcupboard). What I found interesting and relevant from Professor Kallender’s introduction is the remark about lesser and nobler yangban … Gil Chae, now Lady Yoo, is certainly a lesser yanban (as is her husband). I suspect Jang Hyeon also to be in this category (originally), now a merchant. That’s clear to me when he “teases” the court official who asks him for advice in personam outside the Manchu war camp … (the name escapes me right now, he is now Prime Minister I believe, in the Realist camp on the court…)
kiara
October 16, 2023 at 9:36 PM
Interest! Here is my take.
Gil Chae and the nobles in Neunggun-ri would be considered lesser than the Hanyang nobles who held high government posts or related to the royals etc. If you are from the village, you are basically discriminated against as a country bumpkin, unsophisticated, ill-mannered, etc. It does matter where you are from. That’s why she wanted to learn about the people in the capital. She thinks that’s where she belongs.
Officer Yu is from a military family. You can tell their ranks from their job. Military families were the lesser nobles. The higher nobles were exempt from any military duties unless one was chosen to be the minister of war and related posts in the capital, which is a high position in the branch of the government.
Jang Hyeon is a merchant/interpreter, so he is middle class. Since he has money, he can buy/register as a lesser noble.
When he first appeared in the village, there was a rumor that he bought his noble status. His past is still a mystery, so who knows if he was a fallen noble or a government slave like Ryang-eun.
Snow Flower
October 17, 2023 at 11:46 AM
From the brief flashback we saw in Episode 12, I speculate that JH belonged either to a noble or merchant family. The flashback showed him as a child carried by a servant.
angelshadows50
October 17, 2023 at 11:54 AM
Yes, absolutely, I got the same impression. I suspect as I said above noble, but the woods and fields variety (a German expression) 🙂
kiara
October 17, 2023 at 12:14 PM
We still have a lot of history to unload in these two episodes. I’m not as speedy as I used to be. I’ll post some on the recaps.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 6:59 AM
THE FOLLOWING SERIES OF ENTRIES is a verbatim copy of parts of the introduction to below mentioned diary of 1636 by Na Man’gap, by the American George L. Kallender, Professor at Syracuse University in Syracuse, NY. He is an expert in premodern and early modern Korea and had translated the diary for the Asian Classics series of Columbia University Press ; it was published in 2020. His multi-page introduction is outstanding, very informative. I will only quote certain passages, which seem to be very relevant at this point in time for a viewing of « My Dearest » or serve as introduction to what this diary is and means. @kiara has quoted often from this book for her historical updates.
This is PART 1 OF 5
THE IMPORTANCE OF NA MAN’GAP’s DIARY AS REPORTING TOOL AND WHAT IS TELLS US TODAY
« The Diary of 1636 (Pyŏngjarok) is one of the best-known Korean accounts of the second Manchu assault (the invasion of the cyclical year 1636–1637). Written by a demoted member of the court who was living in exile and was a keen observer, Na Man’gap’s Diary details the unprecedented domestic and international crises faced by the Chosŏn dynasty. At roughly forty-three thousand characters, Na Man’gap’s work is the longest known nonofficial source on the Manchu invasion. Na wrote the first half of the diary during the attack, as a day-by-day narrative of events he witnessed directly. […]
In the second half of the diary, which he most likely composed and edited between 1641 and 1642 from oral stories and written documents collected after 1637, Na added political nuance and commentary, sometimes praising, sometimes criticizing those who fought on the battlefield or argued at the court over loyalty to the king. […]
Also included are stories of military campaigns along the northern and western regions of Chosŏn, the Manchu treatment of prisoners of war, and the post–invasion debates over Manchu collusion and the proper Confucian etiquette demanded of Koreans in times of war. The diary is of particular interest because of Na’s training and his detailed attention. At one point in his career, he served as a diarist for the Office of Royal Decrees (Kŏmyŏl), and he used his professional skills when writing the diary. […]
Chosŏn-era writers certainly accepted Na’s diary as an unofficial history. […] This makes it clear that the diary circulated among a handful of scholars, although the reception of the work immediately after Na’s death in 1642 is uncertain. As he was out of favor with the court when he wrote it, Na had the freedom to explore events without fear of political retribution and could thereby offer an alternative view from the official sources. […]
The Diary of 1636 can be read as a narration of the Manchu invasion of Korea and the political and social aftermath of a premodern society at war. However, much is happening below the surface of the text. As a deft writer, Na subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, critiques the contemporary politics of the Chosŏn dynasty through the structure, tone, and context of his stories. Na’s critiques range from the decision to go to war to the acrimonious environment of political retribution in which many officials were expelled from the center of power, including himself. Na Man’gap describes how the outcome of the attack redefined the relationship between the center and the periphery—those who held power in the court and those who resided in the countryside and did not. […]
The war disrupted ties between dynasties and fractured loyalties at all levels. Korea redirected relations to Mukden (K. Shimyang, C. Shenyang), the Manchu capital, and away from Beijing, challenging Chosŏn loyalty to the Ming. Ming Chinese soldiers switched sides and fought for the Qing. Mongols joined the invasion force. Chosŏn military men supported the Manchu. Korean officials split between pro- peace and pro-war, and even a handful of expatriate Japanese fought alongside Chosŏn. Loyalty was a fluid concept. »
kiara
October 16, 2023 at 9:58 PM
I enjoyed reading his book, which provides a rare first-hand account of the Second Manchu Invasion. His daily records helped us keep track of the drama timeline.
Na Man’gap’s conversation at the end of the invasion with Crown Prince Sohyeon was touching. The crown prince was courteous and kind. He even inquired about Na’s mother and expressed gratitude for his service during the invasion.
“My Dearest” doesn’t do him justice. Most of his accomplishments in Qing are given to Jang Hyun in the drama. His wife, the crown princess, was business savvy. It was her idea to do farming. They earned a lot of money and bought as many Joseon hostages in Qing and sent them home. Some were paid to help at the farm.
He got along well with the Qing royals, and that didn’t sit well with Injo, who was paranoid that Qing would replace him with his son.
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 11:44 PM
@kiara, yes thank you for adding this and your views. I feel that we have not seen everything of the Crown Prince yet in «My Dearest». However, I am not certain yet if the writer will, in the end, have portrayed him in a more conventional way or, as you say, as the really interesting person he seemed to have been in real life. He is in this K-Drama after all a side character, albeit an important one. — Why he got killed is clear from our vantage point. That was the former MBC head’s point, I should think. But will they touch this topic ? That’s a whole new film, and none which can be told from within the times I should think and possibly way too critical for a consensus television drama. Also the writer did say in her interview that she did not want to do Injo-bashing (my naming of her words) but portray him in a multi-dimensional way. — I would like to enter this additional information on the crown prince etc. from the diary into the conversations on «My Dearest» we are having here and on the recaps. I had so far deliberately not done a copy/paste job on this part of the diary … also because I ran out of time yesterday, and don’t have time the next several days until the new episodes come out
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 6:58 AM
THIS IS PART 2 OF 5
THE RELATIONS BETWEEN MANCHU AND JOSEON (ON A PEOPLE LEVEL)
« The Manchu empire was divided into constituencies that included various groups and tribes based on language, lineage ties, and geographic proximity under the umbrella of the early khan’s leadership. This concept of inclusion extends to interaction with the Chosŏn dynasty.
Korea was an integral part of Jurchen-Manchu expansion and imperial identity. To create emperorship, the khan needed recognition by the Korean court and the inclusion of the Chosŏn dynasty into his expanding empire. The Manchu achieved this in the 1627 agreement with the Chosŏn, but King Injo’s withdrawal from this arrangement demanded action. Breaking the peace was not only a military threat, it was also an ideological danger to the Manchu emperorship. Allowing the Chosŏn dynasty to break away challenged the entire order and posed a threat to Manchu expansion into China.
Harder to tease out is whether key Korean figures who cooperated with the Manchu before 1636—and those who defected to the Manchu side—actually considered themselves Manchu. Unlike the amorphous area north of the frontier, by the seventeenth century, the Chosŏn dynasty had a defined frontier along the Yalu and Tumen rivers, combined with a distinct political identity extending back several hundred years at least. Those living south of the rivers were subjects of the Chosŏn dynasty. Those who lived across the rivers to the north were Jurchen, Khitan, Mongol, and Han Chinese. Those Koreans who moved across the northern border appeared to have other political identities.
Those Koreans who moved across the northern border appeared to have other political identities. Apparent from Na Man’gap’s diary is that the conflict around the frontier had forced people to move as refugees or as war captives back and forth to the Korean peninsula.
Did Chosŏn people become part of the Qing empire as Manchu or did the Chosŏn court consider those who traveled to the peninsula subjects of the dynasty? This is hard to know as their histories have largely been neglected. Those individuals noted in sources such as the Sillok tended to have language skills, education, or wealth that allowed them to move across political and linguistic borders. Na Man’gap describes some of these people in his diary. As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, captured a number of Chosŏn military men who had fought with the Ming in the northeast regions. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire. […]
As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, captured a number of Chosŏn military men who had fought with the Ming in the northeast regions. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire. »
NOTE : The topic of prisoners of war (after the Byeongjahoran) taken by the Qing is a difficult and not yet too well researched subject. The writer of « My Dearest » seems to be treating it in a conventional interpretation so far, although it is likely that there are more aspects to the topic (as the Manchu motivation for taking people and how many indeed they captured). But this would go beyond the scope of the drama series, I believe, in any case. — Jang Hyeon is obviously a Joseon yangban (if only one of possibly minor importance, from the countryside) who had strong connections to the Jurchen people, certainly as merchant, a livelihood he porbably took up after leaving his father’s house as he was responsible for the death of his older sister. … My current guess … ( as per 16 Ocotber 2023
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 6:57 AM
THIS IS PART 3 OF 5
THE JOSEON COURT, THE BUREAUCRATS, SOCIAL STRATIFICATION IN 16TH C. KOREA
« The Chosŏn court and central bureaucracy in Seoul governed matters of the state through a Confucian lens. Confucian doctrines paid little attention to war or the importance of a well-funded military and were so influential in the fifteenth century that Chosŏn saw little need to defend itself. Theoretically, the ruler held full power over the kingdom atop the social hierarchy. For the first one hundred years of the Chosŏn dynasty, stalwart kings checked bureaucratic power, but, beginning in the sixteenth century, the bureaucracy grew cunning and made decisions based on allegiances, exerting greater control over the rulers. Kings could not stop these political competitions. Those who tried to exercise too much control over the bureaucracy were pushed aside. Within the court, rulers often sat and watched as members of the bureaucracy battled each other over matters great and small. Those in the bureaucracy, the sadaebu, often exerted real authority because kings depended upon them to run the government. Members of the sadaebu were often at odds with one another, which in turn generated political, or factional, strife. »
The sadaebu was the upper echelon of the elite yangban class. Representing only a small percentage of the population, the yangban were the scholarly and military elites, who qualified for office if they passed the government examinations. While the yangban had certain privileges, such as tax exemptions, most were impoverished and held little power. The sadaebu, on the other hand, were the governing group of the court; they continued to succeed in the highest examinations—which gave them access to government positions—and held political control. Below them, the yangin, or commoners, mostly poor peasants, were the majority of the population and carried the burden of paying land taxes and providing corvée and military service. The commoners were the ones who were largely responsible for funding the treasury of a government run by scholar bureaucrats—officials who attacked excess and surplus as supporting immoral choices that would harm the livelihoods of the people. The sadaebu and other yangban should have, in theory, paid taxes, but many yangban did not; it was a tradition that increasingly burdened the commoners. At the bottom of the social hierarchy, nobi, or slaves, were exempt from taxes or other obligations, but they had no privileges. They were considered “base” and “low” (ch’ŏn); their lives were not their own. […] »
angelshadows50
October 16, 2023 at 6:57 AM
THIS IS PART 4 OF 5
THE SITUATION « ON THE GROUND » AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT — POST-IMJIN TO MANCHU BLITZKRIEG
« In the years following the Imjin War, court officials began to improve the economy and build up defenses.30 This included passing early taxation and revenue reforms. Thousands of Koreans had died in the war, and their loss resulted in a severely damaged agricultural system—the base of government taxation and of the livelihood of the people. Routine farming had ceased for six to eight years, devastating food production. It was imperative to maintain rice paddies, as rice farming is an intricate process requiring constant work to maintain the artificial irrigation system. […]
However, domestic and international issues interfered with the rebuilding process. First, political questions arose surrounding King Kwanghaegun’s legitimacy—complicated by his proximity to the Jurchen (aka the Manchu)—that led to clashes with the scholar-official bureaucracy and a coup that culminated in his nephew, King Injo, obtaining the throne in 1623. […]
During the Imjin War, amidst concerns that the king could die without a legitimate heir, King Sŏnjo appointed Kwanghaegun as crown prince, angering one of the political factions, the Westerners (Sŏin), who advocated waiting. An opposing faction, the Great Northerners (Taebugin), supported the decision. King Sŏnjo eventually had two sons by different wives in 1601, but neither was immediately declared crown prince. However, as the children grew, more people began whispering that Kwanghaegun was illegitimate and that King Sŏnjo’s other two sons were the rightful heirs, rumors that threatened Kwanghaegun’s kingship. King Kwanghaegun’s two half-brothers were assassinated, most likely by Kwanghaegun’s supporters, which plunged Kwanghaegun into deep trouble. It was in this fraught political context that the Manchu arrived on the scene. […]
The Manchu were nomadic tribes whose lives were supported by hunting, trapping, and fishing. Some came from a forest environment, others from the plains. In addition to the Manchu, other Jurchen tribes and some Mongols lived in the region north of the Chosŏn frontier. Originally of Jurchen origin, one tribe coalesced around charismatic and militarily powerful leaders, grew into a major federation, and gained the notice of the Ming. By the 1590s, Nurhachi, their leader, emerged as a rising military power and, inspired to revive the Jurchen Jin dynasty (1115–1234) heritage, sought to conquer China for its wealth and resources. Exploiting a weakened Ming, Nurhachi expanded his power into Manchuria in the late 1610s. Based on geographic proximity, Korea was an early concern for the Manchu. As their main objective was China, they had to ensure Korea did not become a hindrance. In 1616, the Ming acted against the Manchu and began preparing for a counterattack, requisitioning thirteen thousand troops from Korea […]
The failed Ming campaign had the added effect of defeating Chinese power in Manchuria. After this loss, the Ming could no longer support Korea, a fact Nurhachi keenly understood. In 1621, all the other towns in Manchuria were captured from the Ming, making the situation even more politically tenuous in Korea. Political factions within the Chosŏn court used the threat of an invasion to gain power and vilify competing parties. The Westerners abhorred the thought of peace with the Manchu, considering them barbarians, while the Southerners urged negotiation. […]
With the Westerners in power, government policy shifted to a pro- Ming stance. King Injo was a weak king dominated by the bureaucratic officials who had enthroned him—a group of politicians belligerent toward the Manchu and supportive of the Ming. They granted Chinese generals access to Chosŏn territory, which the Chinese took advantage of to construct bases on Korean islands along the northwest coast. The Manchu were uneasy with the Ming presence and sent an army into Korea in 1627. […]
Upon recommendation by the Westerners, King Injo reneged on the promises made during the alliance ritual and resumed relations with the Ming once the Manchu troops retreated. In the years after, the Chosŏn court recognized the military disadvantages of the 1627 attack and strengthened key defenses, such as the cavalry, arquebus soldiers, and archers.62 The government built up defenses along the frontier and moved troops to the west and northwest.63 Another consequence of the defensive buildup and pro-Ming stance was that, in time, Ming bases returned to Korean territory. All of these developments indicated to the Manchu that Chosŏn had not severed its ties to the Ming. […]
The incident with Ingguldai marked the end of Manchu attempts at negotiations. In early winter of 1637, roughly fifty thousand Manchu troops crossed the frozen Yalu River and attacked. Unlike in 1627, Korean commanders did not lead the assault. The top Manchu generals, Ingguldai and Mafuta, as well as Emperor Hung Taiji, directed the campaign, indicating the seriousness of Manchu resolve to settle the Korea issue permanently. Like the previous invasion, Manchu troops were unstoppable. The Manchu struck rapidly and within four days reached Seoul. […] »