Red Moon Blue Sun: Episodes 21-22
by odilettante
Live like a dog, die like a dog. That’s the motto of Red Cry, who seems to believe in the philosophy of “a tooth for a tooth” when it comes to revenge. Not that anyone can blame him, considering the horrible way these parents have treated their children. But a killer is a killer, and a detective must catch the killer — no matter what.
EPISODES 21-22 RECAP
Unconscious, Woo-kyung is dragged away by the mysterious hooded person from the butchering barn. On the table, Ha-na’s father is tied up, his back freshly carved with a poem. By the time Ji-heon and the local police (who were alerted by Ha-na’s panic button on the watch) arrive, Woo-kyung and Ha-na are nowhere to be found.
Woo-kyung’s phone and Ha-na’s watch are discovered on the barn floor, and Ji-heon orders everyone to search for the two missing people, since Ji-heon assumes — or hopes — that they’ve been abducted (and not killed). As the forensics team investigate the barn and Ha-na’s father’s body, another team discover a skeleton buried outside — and from the size of it, it looks like it was a child.
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The brutal hand of justice
Woo-kyung wakes up from being drugged, and in trying to figure out where she is, she discovers Ha-na unconscious next to her, covered in a blanket. Just then a light shines down on them — the search party has found them.
It turns out Ha-na was drugged with sleeping pills, and is currently en route to a hospital to make sure she’s okay. Woo-kyung apologizes to the detectives that she didn’t get to see who her attacker was. She thought it was Ha-na’s father until Ji-heon reveals that he’s dead. Ji-heon also tells her about the child’s skeleton they found, and he believes that must be the secret Ha-na’s father didn’t want her to tell anyone.
Our favorite coroner investigates the skeleton and reveals that the child was no more than fifteen months old. Cause of death is uncertain, but based on a dent in the skull, he assumes the child fell down or was hit. The coroner also adds that it looks like Ha-na’s father must have suffered a lot of pain before he died, and Ji-heon darkly mutters that he’s glad.
Amused, the coroner points out that Ji-heon’s changed quite a bit from his “all life is sacred, including criminals” spiel. But the coronor also reveals that Ha-na’s father was tortured before he died due to blunt force trauma to the brain. Before the fatal blow, Ha-na’s father was tied up and had multiple teeth pulled from his mouth. It was after he died that the culprit carved the poem into his back.
At the children’s center, an old man in a wheelchair reads a book to the children. He’s actually the original director and the father of the current children center’s director. Eun-ho watches with a fond smile, since this was also the man who ran the orphanage where he grew up and who basically raised him.
The younger director is in his office with Woo-kyung, totally shocked to discover that Ha-na’s father is dead. Woo-kyung’s working to get Ha-na returned to her foster home, but Junior Director is more focused on a marketing strategy to bring in more money by promoting a counseling program to help raise kids’ grades.
Woo-kyung is baffled why her boss is so focused on raising money when they’re still receiving government funding and their enrollment hasn’t changed, but he just grumbles that it’s expensive running a counseling center. His attitude quickly changes when Eun-ho brings in his father to see them, and he becomes deferential and polite — although the old man chides him for being unnecessarily noisy.
However Senior Director is happy to see Woo-kyung, since she’s always been one of his favorites. He tells her that he trusts her the most to take care of the children’s center.
After Woo-kyung leaves the office, Senior Director warns his son that he better not be causing trouble again. Junior Director nervously reassures him that everything is fine, and pointedly looks at Eun-ho, who reassures the old man that his son isn’t gambling again. Ohhhh, well, that could explain why he’s so desperate for funds.
As Soo-young observes, Woo-kyung tries to gently question Ha-na about what happened that night. Ha-na says she woke up because of the noise outside, which is when she called Woo-kyung. Then she saw that “good person’s face” again — the same person who took her away after her mother died. She cheerfully adds that she doesn’t remember anything after that.
Cautiously, Woo-kyung asks if Ha-na ever lived with a baby, and what it must have been like. But Ha-na starts to quote her father, complaining about how noisy the baby was because it kept crying. Realizing what she’s done, Ha-na quickly covers her mouth, refusing to say anything more. Soo-young gently takes the girl’s hand from her mouth, reassuring her that it’s okay to talk and that her father won’t be able to hurt her any more.
Ha-na bluntly asks if her father died, and after Soo-young confirms it, Ha-na admits that her father killed the child, and she and her mother watched as her father buried the baby, just like Ha-na had buried the dead bird in the playground. That’s when he told Ha-na that she better keep her mouth shut or he’d wring her neck — just like he did to her baby sibling.
Woo-kyung seems concerned by Ha-na’s cheerful indifference over what she experienced, but Soo-young grabs the young girl by the shoulders, insisting that even though the Ha-na is smiling, she knows that the girl wants to cry.
The normally unflappable Soo-young starts to scream that she knows Ha-na wants to cry, but can’t because she’s so afraid of what her father would do to her if she showed how scared she really is. Soo-young yells at her to let her true feelings show — she’s just a kid; she should be scared; she should cry!
Ha-na does start crying, but it’s questionable whether it’s because she’s able to release the pent-up fear of being killed by her father like her younger sibling , or the shock of Soo-young yelling at her. Once Woo-kyung comforts the girl, she goes into the hallway where Soo-young is sitting.
Soo-young apologizes for her actions, explaining that it just seemed so unnatural for a young child who is so intimately familiar with death to be so cheerful. Woo-kyung gently reassures Soo-young that actually it was helpful, since Ha-na was able to learn that it’s okay to cry, and that if she does, someone will comfort her.
Back at Ha-na’s father’s place, Ji-heon and Soo-young search for any clues to who the killer was. There’s no sign of a break-in, so Ha-na’s father must have let him in. A flashback reveals that Ha-na’s father was super drunk when he answered the knock at the door, and was easy to eventually overpower in the fight.
The killer dragged the man out to the barn, and when he returned — after beginning his torture of her father — Ha-na was on the phone to Woo-kyung. Ji-heon muses over what kind of “good person” face would be so reassuring to Ha-na.
Based on the blood stains, Ji-heon deduces that the torture began outside, and it was to get the exact location of where the baby’s body had been buried. Ji-heon wonders how their killer even knew about the dead child, since Ha-na was careful to keep the secret.
Ha-na’s father was then dragged to the barn to be killed, and Soo-young says it must have been because the killer needed light in order to carefully carve the poem on the man’s back. That’s when Woo-kyung arrived, interrupting him in her search for Ha-na, so the killer drugged her and left her with Ha-na.
Ji-heon finds a crayon on the floor and realizes that not only did the killer carve on the man’s back, but also drew on it. Soo-young says that the killer must not have only been getting revenge for Ha-na, whose one pleasure was drawing, but also for himself.
They return to the children’s center, where they ask if anyone else knew what kind of trauma Ha-na might have experienced. Woo-kyung explains that she’s been writing reports about Ha-na’s situation and sharing them with a network of counselors, so there’s quite a lot of people who know about Ha-na’s situation, including the other counselors at the center, her assistant, and of course, the director.
The director is annoyed that the detectives keep disrupting the children’s center with their investigations, but Ji-heon assures him they’re being discrete. When Ji-heon asks if he’s read the reports on Ha-na, the director sighs and says that there are so many children at the center that he doesn’t have time to keep track of them individually, especially a child that’s an extra bother like Ha-na.
Eun-ho enters the office to drop off a deposit slip after running a financial errand for the director. Ji-heon follows Eun-ho back to the maintenance/security room, asking him if it’s normal for him to run such personal errands for the director. Eun-ho explains the director is like his family.
Ji-heon asks if Eun-ho’s heard anything about Ha-na, and Eun-ho says he knows she’s been returned to her foster home. Ji-heon tells him that a child’s skeleton was found on the dog farm, and Eun-ho, in surprise, asks if Ha-na’s father killed the child. Ji-heon points out that he didn’t say that, but Eun-ho is still convinced that her father is a terrible person.
Ji-heon knows Eun-ho saw Ha-na burying the bird, and asks if his ability to connect with the children means he somehow knows more about Ha-na’s life. Amused, Eun-ho points out that Ha-na seems to like Ji-heon more than she likes him, so Ji-heon should be the one trying to listen to Ha-na.
Asking about Eun-ho’s alibi for that night, Eun-ho calmly says he was at the children’s center like he always is. Ji-heon presses the issue, asking why Eun-ho doesn’t seem to ever go out with friends, or why he doesn’t have a girlfriend. Eun-ho retorts by asking why Ji-heon doesn’t have a girlfriend (salt, meet wound), pointing out these personal questions don’t matter to the case.
Even so, Ji-heon finds it suspicious of Eun-ho’s ability to connect to the kids so well. Eun-ho says that it’s illogical to assume he’d kill, just because he likes being around kids. But Ji-heon brings up the old arson case, asking if Eun-ho still sees the boy. Eun-ho tells him he hasn’t been in contact with that boy for years, and that Ji-heon should stop being unreasonably suspicious. Ji-heon says he’ll stop being suspicious when he stops being a detective.
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It’s my job to be suspicious
Thankfully for Eun-ho, Woo-kyung messages Ji-heon, asking to see him. She shows him the link she received for the invitation to join the horror website. She explains that when she first clicked the link, it was a black screen that required a password.
Ji-heon starts peppering her with questions about how to access the site, which baffles Woo-kyung, until Ji-heon reveals that it’s the secret way Red Cry communicates with people. He asks for Woo-kyung’s help.
He returns to the police station, where his team are waiting until 11PM when the hacking protocol will take over the horror website. Soo-young’s been studying the letter that Red Cry sent to Ji-hye when she was in prison, and she’s discovered that Red Cry mentions opening up a massage parlor — which is where Ji-hye used to work before she got married.
The mention of something familiar — and possibly the promise of a job — is likely a reason Ji-hye got in contact with Red Cry when she had ignored all the other letters. Soo-young also points out that Red Cry figured out Ha-na’s secret, so Red Cry must be quite skilled at reading people psychologically.
Woo-kyung calls just then, letting Ji-heon know that the log-in screen for the horror site just popped up. She’s been trying various simple passwords to get in, but nothing has worked. At Ji-heon’s suggestion, she tries to come up with something that only she and Ha-jung would know. Recalling the children’s story she read the first time she went to a meeting of Everybody’s Child, which is where she met Ha-jung, and how that story reminded Bit-na of Ha-jung, Woo-kyung types in the password: Red Moon Blue Sun.
That grants her access to the website, and also by using the password, Chan-wook is able to access the site and see everything Woo-kyung can. On the secret site, there’s a bulletin board listing all the news reports of child abuse, with a “Judge’s Room” where members discuss certain reports of child abuse and decide on punishments.
Chan-wook discovers that there only five online IDs available, from H1 to H5, but those are randomly assigned to whomever is logged in, which means that there could be anywhere from 5 to 500 members of Red Cry’s website. There’s also strong security layers, which means that he can’t track any personal information of each member that logs in.
After investigating the list of seven cases that were sent to the Judge’s Room, three of them are revealed to be connected to the children’s center. Ji-heon asks Woo-kyung to come up with a fake abuse story that seems real enough — and is connected to the children’s center — to convince Red Cry to want to help.
Woo-kyung decides on using Shi-wan’s story, since it’s unique enough to be recognized. When it comes time to log-in later that night, Woo-kyung posts her message, with some coaching from Ji-heon on how to tweak it enough that there’s no way Red Cry could resist. Woo-kyung pretends that she’s a concerned neighbor, writing on behalf of something she’s seen from the family next door.
The detectives watch the message board as the anonymous members chime in to discuss whether or not they should help. Woo-kyung’s sent a message to join a private chatroom, and Ji-heon’s delighted because that means they’ve reeled in Red Cry.
They nervously wait as Woo-kyung weaves a story that’s very close to what happened with Shi-wan. When Red Cry asks to speak to the mother directly, Woo-kyung says the woman is too frightened to do anything. However, Woo-kyung says she can provide evidence from the woman about the abuse — photos, diary entries, and Shi-wan’s sister’s death certificate.
Red Cry takes the bait, telling Woo-kyung that they’ll make a decision after they review the evidence. He tells her a time and place to leave the documents, and Ji-heon grins in delight because now they can finally catch Red Cry.
In the morning, Mom is at her regular visit to Se-kyung. She notices that something seems wrong, and as she leans forward to check Se-kyung’s temperature, Se-kyung moves her head away from Mom’s hand, and then starts to gasp. That’s not something someone in a vegetative should do, and Mom calls for the nurses, who run in to attend to Se-kyung.
When Woo-kyung arrives at the nursing home, Se-kyung is in the ICU being monitored for pneumonia. Worried, Woo-kyung asks if Se-kyung will be okay, but Mom continues placidly knitting. Mom’s convinced that Se-kyung moved away from her touch because Se-kyung has always hated her, but Woo-kyung points out it was probably an involuntary reaction due to the convulsions from the illness. Even so, Mom believes that Se-kyung was trying to avoid her.
At the shopping center where Red Cry told Woo-kyung to drop off the package, undercover detectives are scattered about, keeping an eye on the drop site. Ji-heon, dressed as a cleaner, watches as an undercover cop that looks like an appropriately worried middle-aged woman drops off the package.
But a busking band starts to play, and the crowd that gathers to watch blocks Ji-heon’s view of the package. His team scour the area, but there are so many people walking around with bags and packages, it’s hard to find the right person. Finally he sees someone in a hooded jacket walking away with the package, and Ji-heon and the other detectives run after the man.
Woo-kyung confirms with the doctor that Se-kyung’s reaction to Mom’s attempt to touch her forhead was involuntary due to the seizure. There’s still some hope that Se-kyung might be regaining her consciousness, but the doctor says that in Se-kyung’s state, it will be impossible for her to recover.
Ji-heon nearly risks his life crossing the street to follow the hooded figure, and the other detectives are held up in their pursuit when one of their team members is injured. Ji-heon follows the hooded figure to an underground walkway, and he quietly calls for backup to block the exit.
Stopping suddenly in the middle of the tunnel, the hooded figure puts the package in his pocket. Ji-heon slowly advances, and the man takes off running down the passageway.
Sitting with her sister in the ICU, Woo-kyung is surprised when she feels Se-kyung’s fingers tighten around hers. Staring in shock, Woo-kyung watches as Se-kyung’s gaze seems focuses on Woo-kyung — but then her body starts to convulse again. Woo-kyung screams for the doctors.
Ji-heon chases after the hooded figure into an industrial building and up to the rooftop, where he nearly tackles the other man. But the hooded figure fights him off and then seemingly disappears, since when Ji-heon turns the corner, there’s no one on the rooftop.
That’s because the hooded figure is behind him, and the man punches Ji-heon in the face, sending him to the ground, and kicking him in the torso. The hooded figure holds a wrench as a weapon, but once Ji-heon passes out, the man just walks away, leaving the battered detective on the roof.
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Closer to death
COMMENTS
OMG Ji-heon was so close! I’m pretty sure the hooded figure is Red Cry. Or, at least, a minion of Red Cry, since it seems like Red Cry might be more than just one person, at least based on how many people might be able to access the website. It makes sense, in a way — it’s like a more extreme version of Everybody’s Child. I’m also still convinced that Eun-ho is the hooded figure because the build matches and he’s definitely got a sweet face that a kid would consider to be a “good person.” (Shoot, I still think he looks like an angel, even despite my suspicions.)
But I don’t think he’s the true mastermind behind Red Cry. I’m now suddenly suspicious of the old man director, for no good reason except he’s shown up halfway through the series and clearly is fond of Eun-ho and Woo-kyung, and would know what’s going on at the center. I could see how Eun-ho would be loyal to the old man who helped raised him, and who clearly cares about the children. I’m not saying it makes complete sense, but why would they introduce a new character that is potentially sympathetic to the cause if not to cast suspicion on him?
I’m worried about Se-kyung, since it did seem like she was momentarily aware of Woo-kyung right before she went into her seizure. I’m clinging to my wild belief that Se-kyung is somehow connected to the little girl in the green dress, so I don’t know what I’ll do if she doesn’t survive or eventually regain consciousness. Then again, I don’t know what Woo-kyung would do, either, since clearly she feels responsible for her sister’s condition. I’m also with Mom on the fact that Se-kyung tried to move away from her — okay, sure, maaayyyyybe it was just an involuntary jerk due to the seizure, but it was so perfectly timed! And now we know that Se-kyung has always hated her stepmother, which seems like a notable data point if only because Woo-kyung seems to bend over backwards for her stepmother’s approval.
And then there’s Soo-young. Her outburst to Ha-na about needing to cry seems an awful lot like something Soo-young wanted — or needed — someone to say to her when she was a child. We already know she’s gone through some abuse as a kid, which is why she’s so quick to lash out and beat up people who cross her. I liked the fact that Woo-kyung could sense that Soo-young needed a little encouraging of her own, which reminds me that Woo-kyung is actually good at what she does. But then that makes me worried, because that kind of counseling skill requires the ability to read between the lines, to assess what people aren’t saying — the same kind of skill that Red Cry uses to psychologically manipulate people. I don’t believe Woo-kyung is Red Cry — that just doesn’t make sense, given what we’ve seen so far. But I do believe she’s the type of person Red Cry would want to recruit to their crusade, and I’m not sure how much Woo-kyung would resist, if she were properly pushed in that direction.
Not that I think Woo-kyung would ever actively hurt someone who’s abused a kid. But we know the desire is there, the deep rage that would make her want to run over someone in her car. We know that there’s a part of her that knew Ha-jung getting up to use the restroom wasn’t a good idea, yet she let it happen anyway. Even if her participation isn’t active, she’s still allowing Red Cry to have his way in seeking vengeance on those abusive parents. And that is why I think I love this drama so much — the villain (if we can even call him that) is someone you almost want to root for. I want Ji-heon to catch Red Cry, but I also want those horrible parents who continue to neglect and abuse their children to be punished for their actions.
I doubt many of us are too terribly sad about what happened to Ha-na’s father, especially since we know what kind of man he is. But is seeking satisfaction in his torture and death something to be proud about? Where’s the line that makes us respect all of human life, no matter who someone is, and at what exact moment do we cross it, once we realize that there are people out there who will kill their own children for the simple reason they can’t stand them making so much noise when crying? It’s a murky world out there, and while Red Cry might have an extreme response, it seems almost reassuring that at least someone is trying to shine a light on all the innocent children who have gone through hell.
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Tags: Cha Hak-yeon, Kim Sun-ah, Lee Yi-kyung, Nam Gyuri, Red Moon Blue Sun
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1 gadis
January 3, 2019 at 4:28 PM
To be honest, I always felt uneasy with the way we left Si-wan's story hanging for the last several eps. I know that he could very well be a representative for children out there who couldn't get the chance to deal with their traumatic past properly. Yet I couldn't help but thinking 2that he could be something more since his is the case that I think mirrorred Woo-kyung's green dressed girl hallucination closely. Si-wan is the only other child in the drama who is affected by someone's apparition after whatever traumatic incident he experienced. And the way Si-wan hid his sister figure in his doll house, saying that she is still there, reminded me of Woo-kyung who kept insisting that the green dressed girl is very real. Maybe this attempt at baiting Red Cry with Si-wan's modified story will bring another opportunity for Woo-kyung to address the real root of both his and her problem satisfactorily.
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 6:24 PM
Me too.. I hope that the writer will give us closure to Si-wan's story. The fact that the parents' have pull him out from the centre, I'm afraid that we won't get his story's closure.
it seems like Si-wan is the one who "understands" what WK has seen...
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fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 7:01 PM
Same, same. I'm actually even more disturbed because I noticed that back in ep 1, Si-Wan's house had a staircase with three large cabinets carved into it, whose shelves could easily fit in a child.
Now, maybe that's just a random decoration and has nothing to do with anything, but I can't help but wonder if Si-Wan's little sister was abused prior to her death in that car accident, and that's why he's so obsessed with the stairs.
Not to mention, what kind of parents pull their kid out of counselling after he threw himself down the stairs??? I mean???
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:15 PM
Selfish, greedy parents who are more interested in avoiding scandal or spending more money.
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:21 PM
This is a good point @gadis. Shi Wan's story began this whole show and has not been resolved in any satisfactory way. And he, more than the other children, has parallels with WK's experiences.
Sometime back I was hazarding a guess that WK won't fully recover after whatever trauma she experienced until maybe her sister wakes up and she discovers why the phantom girl appears to her. Now I'd like to add, that Shi Wan's becoming well may be an added help to WK's recovery.
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superwhopotterlock
January 4, 2019 at 8:39 AM
I remember in a previous episode siwan was talking with eunho regarding a girl wearing a green dress,who used to play in the grounds. And it was the same girl who woo Kyung sees. so can those 2 see her as well?
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another woodalchi nicole recruit
January 4, 2019 at 2:51 PM
wait, wait, wait---really? It's for sure the same girl? This would be a game changer.
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superwhopotterlock
January 4, 2019 at 7:40 PM
I think so. She was wearing the same dress. Or they could be talking about hana.
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growingbeautifully
January 5, 2019 at 3:15 AM
I kind of thought it would be Ha Na. Ha Na draws too and Shi Wan mentioned a girl who draws. When Ha Na first was introduced to WK, she was in a green dress. Don't know if it was brought to the centre with her or the centre gave her the clothes to wear.
2 zitless
January 3, 2019 at 4:58 PM
There was a lot of plot movement in this episode and it tweaked my interest to the highest. Plus with the attack on our good detective i was worried about the show drawing behind.
But based on the present i know now, i will shut up, lock my mouth about the past and keep the key till the present becomes the past.
See you all then.
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witchyromance
January 3, 2019 at 5:26 PM
I feel you! I can barely contain myself after watching the newest episodes but discussion will have to wait until further recaps
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fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 7:01 PM
To live-watch is to suffer T_T
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luzitania
January 3, 2019 at 9:01 PM
The struggle is real.
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Kafiyah Bello
January 4, 2019 at 6:14 AM
This is where I am. I am caught up on the episodes. So I'll only say this drama is Glorious!!!
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zitless
January 4, 2019 at 8:18 AM
I couldn't stop saying 'wow'.😮
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3 bogumlips
January 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM
What if Se-kyung stepmother abused her, abused both girls. That's why Woo-kyung can't remember her childhood cause she blocked it out.
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:12 PM
@bogumlips This is an idea that I believe most of us are toying with. More and more hints are dropped by the show to imply that all's not right in the stepmother-daughter world of WK and Se Kyung.
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AlexDanno
January 4, 2019 at 6:28 AM
I also wouldn't be surprised if the stepmother is the missing maternal aunt, which would make me wonder if there are more skeletons in that family closet too
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Karmen ~ 🍜🏢🎭 ~ 📚☔🦋 ~ 🪂🌱💘 ~ ✨🍊💫 ~
January 4, 2019 at 8:47 AM
Wow! I didn't think about that!
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growingbeautifully
January 5, 2019 at 3:12 AM
Yikes! If true, it would explain her keeping the secret so well.
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LT is Irresistibly Indifferent, Dame Judi
January 6, 2019 at 4:43 PM
I saw a hint very early on that the stepmum is, at least, emotionally abusive. I can't remember the exact episode the scene was in but WK responded to her stepmother very much like an abused child does.
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CHARLIE
January 6, 2019 at 5:03 PM
I remember the scene you allude to. They were at the hospital and started fighting, stepmom said sth mean, and WK responded in a really weird manner (over the top apologetic, begging for forgiveness, etc if memory serves). At the time I thought that said more about WK's mental health than anything about stepmom. It is for sure the case that her attachment to her step-mum is not exactly healthy and theirs a weird kind of neediness on her side. Also I do question (just as her stepmum does) what fraction of her professed love is actually real.
On the flip side, there were a couple of instances when both step-mum and ex-husband look at WK as if they were slightly scared of her, which I've always wondered about. I am thinking that some of that immense rage that she feels inside comes out during her 'episode'. It is still unclear what happened in the period after her sister got into the crash when she was officially bed-ridden (though she has no recollection of it). This was the reason I first jumped to the dissociated personalities conclusion. Now I don't know anymore; maybe she was not that unstable and it is more a case of gaslighting. I found it worrisome that her shrink was revealed as the friend of her ex. Donno anymore. Awaiting to be surprised by whatever happens next.
Given the many parallels with Achiara, I'd say the probability of a romantic ship actually going anywhere is nil.
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LT is Irresistibly Indifferent, Dame Judi
January 6, 2019 at 5:09 PM
Yes to all of this, especially my conclusion she was disassociating (the girl in the green dress is a classic sign of this too). I was convinced for a long time she was Red Cry and just didn't know it. And that the girl in the green dress represents herself as the abused child she's forgotten she was.
As time has gone on, I've started to wonder if, instead of being Red Cry, she's being targeted by Red Cry for not being effective at stopping child abuse. The message on HaNa's father's back implied Red Cry is just as angry at the impotence of people who let abuse happen as he/she/they are about the abusers themselves.
I had missed that her shrink is a friend of her ex - that's very concerning.
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4 ryunami
January 3, 2019 at 5:43 PM
Thank you for the recap 👏👏👏
To me this episode is the most gore of all because we saw what happened to Ha na's father and the skeleton of a child found buried near his house. I wouldnt want to think about how the killer did that to him but the sight of his corpse is enough to explain everything.
Ji heon - im quite relieved; with RC attacking him, i can now pull out his name from my list of RC suspects. Because, like the show keeps mentioning, you can never tell with people. Ji heon, like the rest of the show's characters, may have the dark side we havent seen yet. Ha na loves him, and he seems to care about Woo kyung (more than his colleague Soo-young). I hope hes truly a good guy.
Im looking forward to the next ep.
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shqa2
January 6, 2019 at 10:50 AM
Hahaha! Ji Heon was not on my suspect list. Lee Yi Kyung is keeping me interested in the drama.
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LT is Irresistibly Indifferent, Dame Judi
January 6, 2019 at 4:46 PM
Also because I'm shipping. I'm shipping so hard. It's never going to happen. It's why I both thought WK was Red Cry but also hoped she wasn't Red Cry because of my ship. My skeleton of a ship, barely under construction and never setting sail.
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5 growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM
Thanks @odilettante. It continues to look like we cannot get away from the darkness of what happens to the younger sibling. Even Ha Na had one (but so far the only one without one is So Ra??). With the appearance of Head Director, we see what looks like the Director being the disgraced older son and Eun Ho being the younger adopted son. Another kind of sibling relationship.
So now I'm wondering about JH's story. Does he have a sibling and is he older or younger? How about Soo Young who says she has no family ... is she an orphan with no siblings? How many adults are there in this show who once were abused as children, and who are making decisions now or acting out now because of their tragic childhoods?
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 6:05 PM
I felt rather heartbroken that Ha Na was so afraid to cry that she remained looking 'cheerful' through all that ordeal. A lay person like me would have thought that she was OK, that the whole thing was just washing off her like water off a duck's back ... but in truth, she was so terrified that if she cried, she'd be hit and killed, because her baby sibling had cried and been killed. 😰 That horrible father had threatened repeatedly (hypnotised her in a sense) and made good on that promise towards the baby, so poor Ha Na never made a peep. 😒
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 6:31 PM
I feel uneasy seeing Eun-ho's body language to the Head Director. Their relationship feels like "master" - "servant" rather than the father and the adopted son.
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:00 PM
True @lemoncello ... which gets me thinking maybe too often parent-child relationships are, wrongly, sort of like master-servant ones. There's the fear of authority element plus obedience-vs-punishment element that permeate many parent-child relationships. It's hard for parents to exert authority except by the carrot and the stick, and the stick maybe gives faster responses with less investment. 😔
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shach
January 4, 2019 at 12:24 AM
True, it was chilling, how both Director and EunHo reacted to Head Director, they were scared, and we were shown Head Director as chill, funny grandpa at first.
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another woodalchi nicole recruit
January 4, 2019 at 2:53 PM
I'm not watching this show---I'm just reading the recaps and following the discussion (very intently!)---but I was wondering....does the Head Director give off any vibes of being an abuser himself?
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lemoncello
January 4, 2019 at 4:20 PM
Judging from Eun-ho's body language, I'd say YES. It might be sexual abuse. But we'll the in the upcoming episodes if my guess is right.
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growingbeautifully
January 5, 2019 at 3:08 AM
I'm getting the vibe of sexual abuse as well... but it's not stated clearly, so I'm not sure.
LT is Irresistibly Indifferent, Dame Judi
January 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM
I'm getting sexual abuse vibes too.
Midnight
January 3, 2019 at 8:44 PM
Bitna didn't have a sibling either.
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6 lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 6:35 PM
This drama is so hard to watch - similar with "Mothers." Child abuse issues is not an easy issue to deal with. The facts that all the characters might have abusive experiences in the past really pained me. The fact with Ha-Na hurt me the most. How could this poor kid hanged on everything her own? I'm wondering, did Red Cry really need to kill her mother for abandoning her where in fact that her mother was also helpless, and both of them was just trying to run away from the Father.
The Father's death was the most brutal one....
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:07 PM
@lemoncello No matter what, it was wrong to kill the parents: lousy, cruel parents too. In the case of Ha Na's mother, she was simple-minded, abused by her husband and pushed out of the house. She had no way to really take care of herself and her child but was abandoned and homeless. On top of that she had bad asthma. She was a victim too.
When I first saw her corpse sitting in that chair, I thought she looked like a child herself and was surprised that she was an adult and a mum. I felt sorry for her. She was placed there like a person in court, who had been judged and condemned.
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 7:58 PM
@growingbeautifully: I could also Eun-ho is the same thing while standing behind the Head Director. He looks someone who needs to be saved....
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shach
January 4, 2019 at 12:31 AM
And it wasn't like she neglected HaNa, she tried to provided for her to the best of her abilities, they hide in children centre, where she was seen playing with other children, her mother thought her how to find things she needs (dumpster diving that horrified WK so much), HaNa didn't stand out among children at the centre, so she must be well fed and in clean clothes. From the perspective of well off middle class lady it was horrible existence but HaNa mother try her best given her circumstances.
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AlexDanno
January 4, 2019 at 6:31 AM
I also thought it was a child, or a young teen. I wonder if that was done on purpose, because of her mentality and circumstances. She was supposed to look like a child to cast some criticism on her killer, because in spite of her flaws and the affect they've had on Ha-Na, she was a victim all by herself and we'll never know now just how much responsibility she was really capable of taking
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BdxPelik
January 3, 2019 at 7:08 PM
I'm watching Mother at the same time I'm watching this one. Unfortunately, the two dramas combined made me feel really down. So, I have to force myself to insert romance/comedy dramas in between (e.g. Encounter) to make me feel better.
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 7:57 PM
Please do.. "Encounter" will make you giddy, especially when Bo-gum gives us his big smile.... Who can resist with such smiles? LoL.
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AlexDanno
January 4, 2019 at 6:33 AM
He has a lovely smile, but...and I might be in the minority here...I miss the floppy hair from the first episodes more than anything.
Mother is a hard watch (the jdrama version, haven't seen the kdrama one yet), but anything involving abuse to children or animals really gets to me. This drama is incredible but it's a tense watch each week.
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another woodalchi nicole recruit
January 4, 2019 at 2:54 PM
I did enjoy that floppy hair :)
BdxPelik
January 4, 2019 at 5:01 PM
welp I accidentally turned this thread into a PBG discussion. But yeah, his smile is killer lol
7 growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 6:52 PM
After that outburst from Soo Young, now I'm super curious about her backstory. Why isn't the show telling us more about her and JH since they are also considered the main protagonists and appear on the poster?!
The unflappable Soo Young, like the previously more rigid JH become different with Ha Na and faced with her situation. Which means maybe Ha Na's suffering hit close to home for them.
We know that Red Cry is associated with Hanuel, but the speed at which Red Cry moved against Ha Na's father indicates that Red Cry is very much closer to the investigation team and to the Centre. What is decided is known immediately. All the details are known. Even the whereabouts of the dead child... this is strange. Even knowing that Ha Na may have had a dead sibling does not lead to knowing where the child was buried.
So many questions! So little time!
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:39 PM
@midnight @shach @sicarius @kurama @sooyi @psycho94 @hobakky @fishnchips @loveblossom @gadis @zitless @kafiyah-bello @lemoncello @witchyromance @alex8825
I saw some of your comments in the previous recap about the possible torture of Ha Na's father to get the whereabouts of the dead child. Speaking of torture ... was it 7 of his teeth that were extracted? One for each family with a child that was abused do you think?
1) Shi Wan and his dead sister
2) Ji Hye's son
3) little sister of the boy WK accidentally killed
4) So Ra
5) Bit Na
6) Ha Na
7) the baby that WK miscarried
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 7:49 PM
OMG, this is so scary. Could be true.. One tooth represents one family..
Doesn't mean that WK is also possible the next target? I mean, by inviting her to the chatroom?
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:54 PM
@lemoncello I hope not!! At least Shi Wan's parents were not victimised yet. 😐
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shach
January 4, 2019 at 12:33 AM
Or it take 7 teeth to get him speaking ;)
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💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
January 4, 2019 at 12:42 AM
i DON'T KNOW WHY I'M HERE BUT HI
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growingbeautifully
January 4, 2019 at 12:51 AM
LOL Hi @sicarius surely not here for teeth extraction!! 😉
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💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
January 4, 2019 at 12:55 AM
That sounds painful. I've had many teeth extracted in various horrifying ways. I do not recommend.
AlexDanno
January 4, 2019 at 6:38 AM
That's a really interesting theory, though I feel [only a tiny bit] sorry for Dog Butcher if he's the one taking the brunt of the suffering for all of those cases!
I know it would be working in the context of what we've seen, but that would also suggest that Red Cry is a recent thing and hasn't been flying under the radar whilst doing their vigilante schtick for a while. If they had been operating for longer, there would be far more than 7 cases
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psycho 🍉
January 4, 2019 at 4:34 PM
I tend to take things at face value but it doesn't seem as if there were any significance in the number of teeth that were extracted. It doesn't seem like something Red Cry would do.
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8 fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 6:55 PM
Mwuahaha, my time has finally come. I introduce to you: The Shippy Comment (Part 1)
Idk if I'm the only one who's picked up on this, but the way Ji-Heon addresses Woo-Kyung in his interactions with her lately is so telling, and so fascinating to keep track of.
Like, in the beginning of the series, he always and only addressed her as 'Cha Woo-Kyung-ssi'. Trying to talk her down from a panic attack? Cha Woo-Kyung-ssi. Sharing poetry murder theories, grabbing dinner, hearing about the GGD, and teaming up to find Lee Hye Sun's daughter? Still Cha Woo-Kyung-ssi.
And then we find ourselves coming to the middle of eps 9-10. WK and JG had finally found Ha-Na, but she wasn't the GGD they'd been looking for. WK turned to JH, and asked him to give her his opinion as a detective on why she was seeing the GGD. And maybe it was to show that he was answering as someone on her side, or maybe it was in recognition of all they'd accomplished together, but JH, for the first time, dropped his form of address to a more familiar one, and called her, simply: Woo-Kyung-ssi.
What's more interesting is, while JH was careful to still call her Cha Woo-Kyung-ssi in front of his colleagues, he kept on using that more familiar mode of address whenever they were alone ('I don't think anyone lives here, Woo-Kyung-ssi.' 'You saved that child, Woo-Kyung-ssi.' 'In the end, you were right, Woo-Kyung-ssi' ). You could see how comfortable JH was with his growing friendship with WK, and just how at ease he was around her in general.
UNTIL, that is, the middle of eps 13-14. This is when Soo-Young first lowkey called Ji-Heon out on being biased ('Isn't that why you care about CWK so much? Because you heard her screaming'). JH didn't respond to it directly, but made a point of 'impartially' defending Woo-Kyung's innocence at work ('Why do you think Cha Woo Kyung is involved with every case? Doesn't everything point to Hanul Centre instead?'). Said defence was then followed by WK, with perhaps the worst timing in the world, knocking at the door with her message from Red Cry.
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shach
January 4, 2019 at 12:34 AM
Honestly I would hate it, I was burned so badly by all the partners-to-couple in American series that I wish to never see it again.
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:47 AM
Lol, I understand the feeling of getting fed up of a specific trope being played over and over again, so defo no hard-feelings over different opinions!
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Kafiyah Bello
January 4, 2019 at 6:22 AM
Lol, I didn't catch this, but the only ship I have for these characters is therapy and healing.
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:51 AM
Totally understandable, since I don't expect everyone to have the same shipping tastes lol. I'm just a sucker for lost types who seem to have found a bond with each other. That said please, let's have someone send WK and JH to therapy. They NEED IT.
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LT is Irresistibly Indifferent, Dame Judi
January 6, 2019 at 4:52 PM
I make no defence of my position. But I've been shipping them since practically their first scene together.
I don't anticipate that the show will go there nor will I be disappointed when they don't. It's not that show and I'm a little disturbed and weirded out by just how much I'm shipping them.
But shipping them I am.
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Karmen ~ 🍜🏢🎭 ~ 📚☔🦋 ~ 🪂🌱💘 ~ ✨🍊💫 ~
January 4, 2019 at 8:58 AM
Oh, thank you! I tried to keep track of the way JH addressed WK, but wasn't able to.
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:42 AM
You're welcome! Lol, my rewatching the show three times might as well come in handy. It's nice to see there are other people interested too, because it's such a cool detail for the writer to pay attention to.
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9 fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 6:56 PM
The Shippy Comment (Part 2)
I've never seen JH as visibly upset with WK as he was right then. He wasn't just bothered by how she sent a message to RC without a word, he jumped to the very betrayed conclusion that she hadn't been completely forthright with him. He peppered Woo-Kyung with questions that varied in tone from passive-aggressive ('You'd know better than I do if RC was an acquaintance or not,') to sad and vulnerable ('...why did you send that message?') to tired and accusing ('It's time you're honest with me.').
And most importantly, for the first time since ep 9, JH called her 'Cha Woo Kyung-ssi' the whole time they talked, even though they were alone.
That's not to say I think JH put WK on his prime suspect list after this. I think he believed her when she explained her reasoning for sending the message. But the thing was, a seed of doubt had been planted, not necessarily just towards WK, but towards his own behaviour as a cop. JH seemed to have decided that he needed to make and keep his boundaries.
I think his thought process was something along the lines of, sure, he wanted WK to be innocent, but he had to prove that she was innocent first, through proper investigations and evidence, and until then he couldn't ignore all evidence against her and wouldn't let his emotions get in the way of doing his job.
This was the moment that forced JH to put WK on the murder board. And this was the moment he stopped calling her 'Woo-Kyung-ssi', alone or in company.
Of course, JH may have had his good intentions and his properly formal honorifics, but that didn't mean he wasn't biased. If anything, he just grew increasingly more defensive of WK at work, snapping at anyone who so much as implied something about WK's mental health, ('She's working perfectly fine now.') let alone whether she was innocent or guilty. This lead to SY calling him out for as bluntly as any man has ever been called out ('Aren't you the one letting your personal feelings cloud your judgement?'), and JH...predictably having absolutely no defence beside an outraged 'What?', lol.
That said, I do genuinely think JH was trying (if failing) to be as impartial a cop as he could, because he still managed to at least keep his honorific boundaries firmly uncrossed. He didn't use the address 'Woo-Kyung-ssi' ever again...
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Karmen ~ 🍜🏢🎭 ~ 📚☔🦋 ~ 🪂🌱💘 ~ ✨🍊💫 ~
January 4, 2019 at 9:06 AM
And the look on his face when he and SY found out that WK was with Bit-Na,' mother... something like: "Oh, no" This can't be". I had the impression he was more upset that SY was there and could think of WK as the culprit that the situation itself.
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 4:10 AM
Oooh, tbh I'd read that scene a little differently! I hadn't thought JH would suspect WK at all tbh, since he knew her pretty well at that point, and had heard her horrified scream when MHJ jumped.
I read that moment when he clocked her on the bridge as JH and WK's eyes meeting and expressing their shared horror over what had happened more than anything else.
(To be fair, the music in the end of episode 18 is more dramatic and intended to make viewers worry at the possibility of him suspecting her, but the beginning of episode 19 is much more neutral about it.)
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Karmen ~ 🍜🏢🎭 ~ 📚☔🦋 ~ 🪂🌱💘 ~ ✨🍊💫 ~
January 6, 2019 at 7:46 AM
Sorry, I meant when JH and Sy were in the car before arriving on the suicide scene.
Acute observation about the music!
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10 fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 6:56 PM
The Shippy Comment (Part 3)
THAT IS, UNTIL THIS EPISODE. YES. THAT IS WHY I AM SPAMMING THE COMMENT SECTION.
Imagine my surprise and delight this ep, when JH not only goes back to calling WK 'Woo-Kyung-shi', but does so in the middle of work. Like literally. JH starts out their operation to lure RC, all cool-headed and professional and 'Is there anything Min Ha Jun and you share, Cha Woo-Kyung-shi?' and then not 30 seconds later, as the tension picks up, he's cradling the phone to his face and saying, 'Woo-Kyung-ssi, there's no need to rush.' My fellow beanies, I simply rejoiced.
And I was flabbergasted too. For a while I wondered if Ji-Heon had even realised he'd gone back to that less formal mode of address, if maybe he didn't slip in the excitement of luring out a perp. But nope, he's been keeping up the good ol' 'Woo-Kyung-ssi' address beyond this episode too, and that's convinced me he's made a very conscious decision.
Though I wonder what, exactly, changed JH's mind about keeping his boundaries. Was it because WK getting knocked out on the scene of RC's murder had cleared her of all suspicion in his eyes, so he felt justified in treating her comfortably again? Was it that his emotions had reared their head after his friend was put in such a dangerous situation, and he figured keeping his distance because of a lack of evidentially proven innocence wasn't worth it? Maybe it was a mix of both, who knows.
Either way, I am delighted to hear JH addressing WK more informally again, and fascinated by all the insight this provides on how he sees her.
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BdxPelik
January 3, 2019 at 7:14 PM
So... your point is that you're hoping for something MORE between the two? I can't see that happening, but quote 21 Pilots, "It's fun to fantasize"
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:39 AM
I do personally see potential for a hint at something more in later episodes, but that wasn't the intention with which I shared that analysis, nah. The point I was getting at was how detail-oriented the dialogue in this show is, and how the changes in JH's way of addressing WK throughout the story also indicate his mindset at the time. I just didn't bother to hide my shipper's bias while pointing it out lol.
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BdxPelik
January 5, 2019 at 7:46 AM
Ah ok lol. I do enjoy reading analysis on Ji Heon XD
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luzitania
January 3, 2019 at 9:06 PM
Thank you for all this. As a non Korean-speaker, I sometimes fear I miss all those nuances in the languages that get lost in translation so thank you for pointing them out for us.
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fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 9:16 PM
You're very welcome! Lol, I'm not a native speaker of Korean either, just working on clawing my way up from intermediate to fluent. But hey, share what you know, right?
One of my biggest grievances with subs for any drama is actually how often they miss out nuances like that which can add so much more depth to the story. Like, if you don't want to write the full name, just mention the surname, the nuance will still get across. Alas, few subbers bother. Lol, this is why I started learning in the first place tbh, fear of missing out 😂
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lemoncello
January 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM
Thanks for your all spammy shippy comments, LoL. I didn't realise it till you mentioned it (oh, how using last name and not is a big different here :) ... But true, he's changed from someone who at the beginning suspected her to someone who is willing to cooperate with her and ask her for some advices.
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fishnchips
January 3, 2019 at 10:15 PM
Lol, thank you for tolerating my spam X'D. I'd actually written this monster last week in my personal notes on the show, but I ended up having so much fun with it I thought I'd share it on here too. It's always so fun to notice the changes in characters as a series progresses.
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Hobakky
January 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM
Hm, I'm with you regarding Ji Heon definitely having a soft spot for Woo Kyung since there are both behavioral and lingual clues that he pays her a little bit extra attention, but I'm not sure if this is an actual viable ship yet. It's clear that the writer has been making a point of showing that JH cares for WK perhaps more than what would generally be reasonable in their particular case, but the problem is WK has displayed zero extra interest in him and the use of Woo Kyung-ssi alone is not enough to predict that he wants to pursue her romantically or anything (although part of me really ships them too, honestly).
Although WK-ssi is certainly the less formal counterpart to CWK-ssi they both are undoubtedly formal forms of address, so much so that the use of first name-ssi alone is not really very eyebrow-raising. Unless you're in a situation where it's important that you indicate a clear boundary between you and the other person, such as questioning someone at the police station, or you're intentionally trying to put extra distance between the two of you, I think that generally when talking to someone in person and not about them to someone else, it's common practice to either use just the first name after you've already used the full name once in the conversation or drop the name altogether.
That being said, I don't think JH saying "WK-ssi, there's no need to rush" is necessarily ground-breakingly unprofessional, but it is pretty notable that he used her name at all. The use of the first name always has a more gentle and personable connotation to it, so actually it's the frequency and situations in which he uses her first name that sort of raises eyebrows. His superior would have had no reason to chastise him for using her first name in the above line, but it's possible SY would have taken note of it as being extra considerate since, unless WK was having a panic attack or something, it's likely no other officer would have seen the need to use her name at all in that sentence.
The problem with JH and WK is not so much just that he calls her WK-ssi, but rather that he's spent so much time with her both on and off official business that at this point it's more unnatural for him to use her full name. He should have never sought her out or asked as many personal questions of her as he did. Although I don't know if we can necessarily call them friends yet, their relationship has definitely strongly skewed from professional working relationship to personal acquaintances, which is definitely interfering with JH's ability to be an objective police officer.
Bottom line: You're 100% right that JH is too fond of WK, but it's not clear yet if the feelings will be mutual. I certainly won't object to at least a handhold or hug in the future though ;)
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:33 AM
(Reply 1/2) Finally, someone who's as interested in writing long, analytical comments as I am! Lol, tbh I think I accidentally misled people by titling it 'the shippy comment'. I meant that as a funny disclaimer, like a 'fair warning, this character interpretation is peppered with my shipper glee’ thing, not as a ’here is proof of my ship being canon' thing. 😅
My aim was to demonstrate (amidst squeeing) how the different honorifics JH used were not only prompted by external events, but indicated an inner storyline where he’s been struggling to reconcile his required impartiality as a cop with his personal attachment to WK. My intended takeaway was that JH's behaviour showed he was self-aware of his bias towards WK, without any specific argument on the nature of said bias. It wasn’t meant as a ship-proving thing, lol.
Tbh tho, I don’t ship anything unless I think the author’s hinted at the possibility. Something I've consistently noticed in the writing and directing of this show is there’s a LOT of attention drawn to JH's strong attachment to WK, sometimes with an air of ambiguity. This, coupled with how WK’s emotionally stabilised after finding a confidant in JH, leads me to believe the author is setting something up there. I wouldn’t expect anything explicit tho, just a hint of something more. Of course, my reasoning is based on circumstantial evidence, so I can only say time will tell.
About honorifics: I would describe CWK-ssi or WK-ssi comparatively as 'less formal' or 'properly formal', but I wouldn't call either a formal mode of address, bc -ssi is the default polite term for anyone of equal or lower ranking. Surname-First-Name-ssi and First-Name-ssi can be used between strangers, acquaintances, co-workers, friends, and couples (before and after marriage). It all depends on the circumstances (e.g. age and how they know each other) and how polite/casual a person the speaker is.
An good example is Fox Bride Star where the leads start off as co-workers addressing each other as Han Yeo-Reum-ssi and Lee Soo-Yeon-ssi. After they get together, only the male lead changes his form of address to a more familiar one, Yeo-Reum-a, whereas the female lead keeps calling him politely as Lee Soo-Yeon-ssi.
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:34 AM
(Reply 2/2) I also would not say it's generally practised to immediately go from Surname-First-Name-ssi to First-Name-ssi, let alone First-Name-a. You’d see that between high-schoolers or young adults, or when addressing someone younger. Beyond that it's expected you wait until appropriate (SY, for example, is still using CWK-ssi). Again, it also depends on circumstance. For example, when introduced to a friend of a friend, you can use First-Name-ssi right off the bat. But if you're meeting a co-worker for the first time, you always use Surname-First-Name-ssi to start, and drop to First-Name-ssi later, if ever.
JH interests me bc he doesn’t seem to do friendship level-ups easily. He's on very casual terms with his captain and two other cops, but also seems to have known them for years. He and Soo-Young have been working together for at least 6 months, but he's only ever called her 'Jeon Soo-Young', and, in a hissy fit after she used one casual word with him, sarcastically asked if they were friends.
The way JH stuck to using CWK-ssi for so long in the beginning indicates he was reluctant to show more familiarity, whether bc it doesn’t come easy to him or bc WK was a person of interest, or both. While going from CWK-ssi to WK-ssi isn't scandalous, it's significant bc it's an expression of increased closeness, and from the ever-reluctant JH at that. That’s why him going back to CWK-ssi after the Red Cry Messaging Incident was also super passive-aggressive.
Finally, just to clarify on his return to using WK-ssi: JH had already started using WK-ssi again in the ep, and then, on top of that, called her that at work. I wondered if it was just him slipping not bc he did it once, but bc each time he did it, in private (twice) and with a coworker (three times), it was related to them trying to lure out RC.
The main reason I was stunned when JH called her WK-ssi at work was bc, no matter how he addressed her in private, he’d always made a point of using CWK-ssi in front of co-workers. The way he said CWK-ssi as per his usual at-work ethic literally 30 seconds before switching to WK-ssi particularly stuck out, bc he seemed to have suddenly changed his mind about it. (I also fully expected SY to needle him about being biased again, but I think she’s taken WK off her suspect list, so she doesn’t see it as a problem anymore.)
In summary, circumstances need to be considered before analysing any honorific, and JH’s usages interest me bc he seems to put a lot of thought into them. I do expect fruition from JH/WK but my honorific analysis is just one of the trees in the forest rather than explicit evidence.
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Hobakky
January 5, 2019 at 11:26 AM
(1/2) Oh, sorry! I should've been more careful about my wording. I think you are right about JH's way of calling WK being significant as well as the writer making a point of showing that JH has feelings for her. The biggest reason for saying I'm not sure it's a viable ship (even though I ship it and am quite a fan of shipping people in general) is because the writer has yet to show WK having any kind of reciprocal feelings which makes me wonder what the writer's purpose of continually emphasizing JH's feelings is. Then again, I think WK is kind of emotionally repressive in general so perhaps once she learns her past she will open up more and this ship may finally get its sails.
As for the honorifics, I'm no expert on them, but I really can't think of any instance where I've seen people that have met several times outside of a work environment or something similar that continue to use full name honorifics when directly addressing each other beyond maybe an initial call of their name to get their attention. That's why it doesn't bother me that he switched to WK-ssi while on the phone with her at work, since if he had used her full name it would have sounded to me like, "Hey, Cha Woo Kyung, are you listening to me? You don't need to rush," and it wasn't like she was in a situation where she was distracted (like perhaps if she was in a panic) and would need her attention snapped back to him. I think the reason he used her full name initially in that conversation was for the benefit of his co-workers listening in on the conversation.
I think you're right about his insistent use of her full name in episode 14 when he was questioning her about messaging Red Sky being significant. He was clearly trying to be the business only objective cop questioning a potential suspect; however, I doubt WK considered it passive-aggressive since she has treated him as simply a detective questioning her for the sake of a murder investigation from the start (remember she doesn't know that JH and her are connected by her affair). For that reason, although she likely noticed the change in address, I don't think she was in anyway hurt or affronted by it. I think the deliberate use of her full name in this scene was a testament to how JH hasn't been sticking to his "suspect everyone" motto.
In a sense, if his captain was aware of how JH spoke to WK, he really should be criticizing him for not informing his superior that one of the suspects is a woman he personally knows, but he can't really say anything about his use of her first name. The fact of the matter remains that before CWK was a murder suspect, she was the woman whose husband JH's girlfriend was having an affair with. They can't chastise him for having a personal connection with her prior to her involvement in the case, but they can point out his bias. The use of her first name would primarily be an insult to her, but as long as WK herself is making no sign of being uncomfortable...
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Hobakky
January 5, 2019 at 1:57 PM
oops, I got too wordy and cut myself off.
As long as Woo Kyung herself is making no sign of being uncomfortable with the use of her first name, then it's not anyone else's place to say anything about it to him.
On the flip side, it doesn't bother me that SY still calls her by full name-ssi because they have an impersonal relationship, as they're supposed to. SY has pretty much only spoken with WK for official investigation business, unlike JH, and even then JH normally does the brunt of the direct questioning to WK. You can sort of think of SY and WK's relationship like that of a bank teller and a client. Even if a client comes to the same teller every month to deposit money, the teller is supposed to treat them like it's their first meeting every time.
That being said, this episode had the first personal SY/WK moment that wasn't investigation related. When SY asked for WK's opinion after yelling at Ha Na to cry, she was asking as a regular person seeking WK's professional advice as a child psychologist, not a subject of a criminal investigation. Although she didn't use WK's name in that instance, if she did I would have expected her to switch to WK's title of CWK-seonsaengnim. If our main characters form end up staying in touch with each other after the Red Sky investigation is over, then I would suspect that SY will eventually turn to either seonsaengnim or WK-ssi as the default address for WK as well.
Hobakky
January 5, 2019 at 11:28 AM
(2/2) After thinking about it a little more, I think the matter of titles is why I’m not surprised by JH’s quick transition to WK’s first name but still consider it to be formal. Like you said, you should never immediately transition from full name-ssi to first name-ssi, but you shouldn’t continue using full name-ssi with people you see on a regular basis since it is primarily meant as a mode of address for strangers. Normally, if you’ve met or spoken with someone more than a couple times the next step would be to switch to addressing them by their title instead. Even in Fox Bride Star, Yeo Reum actually refers to Soo Yeon by his title, Lee Soo Yeon-sawon.
Right off the bat, WK’s first interaction with JH was when he was an officer on duty driving her home after committing a crime so it’s natural that she would refer to him by his title. However, in JH’s case his first interaction with her was just as an ordinary woman, not child psychiatrist Dr. Cha, and her profession has never mattered to him in his interactions with her so using her title wouldn’t make much sense for him. When WK confessed about her hallucinations to him, he knew too much about her personally to still speak to her like a stranger. Therefore, the only logical and natural solution left that was still respectfully formal was calling her Woo Kyung-ssi.
There’s actually a lot of interesting things to analyze regarding the use of names in this show. For instance, I believe WK calls EH Eun Ho-ssi as a deliberate sign of respect to him. I’m sure he has an official working title that would be more appropriate for her to use considering she is much older and in a position of greater power so she’s not required to use honorifics with him. EH is certainly not a stranger to her so I feel like using the honorific with him is her way of showing she doesn’t pity or look down on him and instead considers him an equal.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, JH’s decision to not use honorifics is a deliberate sign of disrespect. He makes no secret of his dislike of EH by rudely calling him simply Lee Eun Ho despite EH always using appropriate honorifics to him. Likewise, he doesn’t use appropriate honorifics at work when he really should. He gets away with it with the Chief because they are old friends, but the show has shown since the start that our tech cop doesn’t like him because he’s rude to him. The thing is JH actually must like tech guy pretty well though since he uses banmal right back to him, despite JH being his superior and older, and JH says nothing about it. Poor SY got an earful when she tried the same thing though because JH is still sulky about being assigned her as a partner. JH is a very diligent cop, but he clearly has some professionalism issues lol
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fishnchips
January 9, 2019 at 10:23 AM
@hobakky Hey! :D Replying here so this doesn't become a thin block of text lol. And sorry this reply is so late! (Lol, can you tell I only make time to go on dramabeans after every new ep? XD)
[Reply #2 1/2]
Actually, I think you’ve misremembered the beginning of the drama a little bit? (Which is totally understandable since it’s been so long!) WK & JH did first meet as a cop & person of interest, back when he questioned her about Ji-Hye in ep 1-2. That’s how he knew her name, her husband, & that his ex worked with him. That’s why when they met again in ep 3-4, he immediately understood why WK was bashing the car.
And WK does know about the affair connection. She found JH's keychain with the couple pic in ep 7-8 & returned it to him saying "My husband & I got a divorce. I thought you'd want to know." specifically to let JH know that she knew. Lol, JH was so mortified, the next time she called him, he made SY pick up.
But moving back to honorifics for a bit. My example of Fox Bride Star was referring to eps 1 & 16. YR uses ‘Lee Soo-Yeon-ssi’ in both, whereas in ep 16 SY has dropped to YR-ssi/YR-a. Similarly, Lie To Me and The Girl Who Sees Smells have male leads who used their counterparts’ full names for a long time. I’m sure there are a few more examples out there tbh, but alas, my fuzzy memory lol.
Of course, this doesn’t change the general principle that you drop honorifics as you get closer. What I’m trying to underline is that not everyone will drop honorifics in the same situations or at the same speed, and most of time this is perfectly acceptable in personal relationships since how you address each other hinges largely on personal choice (& consent, esp if there’s an age/seniority disparity).
That’s why some ppl will keep calling their lover the way they did initially (see: Lee Soo-Yeon-ssi). Some young ppl will call each other FN-a although they’re total strangers (see: uni students). Some adults will keep using FN-ssi even after growing close to a new friend (see: Bon-ssi in Terius Behind Me). And so on.
Even some social norms can seem contradictory unless you remember honorifics are more about deference than distance. E.g. It’s quite common for FN-ssi to be used with a lover esp. by women who don’t like sickly-sweet nicknames. Many newly-weds will also call their spouse FN-ssi, and sometimes refer to them as SFN-ssi when talking to others. Don’t even get me started on addressing in-laws lol.
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fishnchips
January 9, 2019 at 10:40 AM
@hobakky [Reply #2 1.5/2 (it got too long lol)]
But back to honorifics on the show. It’s bc JH first met WK as a cop that he started out using her full name, since that’s how cops keep all POIs straight (imagine investigating 5 Dr Parks lol). E.g. the director, who the cops already knew, became ‘Director Song Ho Min’ when suspected. Conversely, WK calls JH detective not bc of how they met, but bc a work title is standard address for cops/doctors/etc. If they’d met normally, JH’d likely have called her by her work title too.
During the phone call, JH calling WK as ‘CWK’ by itself could’ve been like ‘hey!’, but CWK-ssi wouldn’t have that kind of nuance at all. Remember, JH’s been calling her that for over half the show, and it wouldn't have made much difference if he'd kept it up over the phone call.
Bc really, it’s not how JH addresses WK at work that’s problematic, but what it lets on. If a cop's childhood friend was involved in a case, no one would say anything about him continuing to address them casually. What would be questioned is if the cop should be in the investigation when they have a personal connection.
JH using WK-ssi is problematic bc a) it indicates a personal connection with a POI & b) this connection developed while WK was a POI in multiple cases JH was investigating, which is even worse. Honestly, I shudder to think of what would happen if JH was seriously investigated considering all the times he let WK know unauthorised information or used police resources for her personal problems (not to mention certain events in last week’s eps).
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fishnchips
January 9, 2019 at 10:43 AM
@hobakky [Reply #2 2/2]
But focusing on individual manners. WK is polite to EH, but her using -ssi isn’t a big deal, since it can be used w/ ppl who do and don’t have work titles (NIKL standards). She’s also typically dropped his surname since a) he’s younger than her & b) he’s in a lower position at work. But WK’s politeness shines bc she uses haeyoche with EH, even though he’s lower on the social hierarchy.
The hierarchy is also why JH’s way of addressing EH isn’t actually rude. JH’s allowed to use haeche with him & call his name plainly, bc not only is JH older by more than a few years, he also met EH when he was younger. EH is also addressing JH as he should his elder in return, which may be why JH's address seems rude in comparison --tho it's certainly not helped by how plain nasty JH can be when in his interrogator mode lol-- but JH's completely within his social rights (I recommend comparing how JH sounds later when he softens to EH. His speech level is exactly the same, but the feeling is v different).
JH always adjusts his speech levels accordingly with anyone he meets, addressing those the same age or older than him with haeyoche (e.g. So Ra’s mother, WK) and those younger with haeche (e.g. the truck driver, EH, SY). He is casual at work, but this isn’t really a problem since he works with ppl younger than him (and not all police stations fixate on formal speech patterns- like, if anything, SY stands out for constantly using hapsyoche lol). He also adjusts his speech level with his captain every now and then to be more formal in certain moments.
I don’t think techie’s ever complained about the way JH addresses him? He has complained about JH’s general behaviour, lol. But techie loves him, really, otherwise he wouldn’t call him hyung in return.
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fishnchips
January 9, 2019 at 12:13 PM
@hobakky Annnd I just realised I forgot to reply about WK, LOL.
I really don't think WK saw JH as a detective just doing his job when he switched back to CWK-ssi. There are two vital things here: 1) it wasn't an official interrogation, or even in front of other cops, but a non-recorded, unofficial conversation in private, 2) the two had a growing friendship beyond child-saving collaborators and poetry-murder theorisers, where she'd confided her whole story, including the GGD to JH, and he'd done nothing but reassure & support her.
Both of which made it all the more devastating and deliberately distancing when JH not only switched to 'CWK-ssi', but outright questioned her forthrightness with him.
Note WK’s body language. She starts out slouched, eyes casually glancing around, with wide tilting/nodding head movements. At JH’s first CWK-ssi, the camera pans to her still face, looking slightly bothered. Her movements lessen as she asks if RC knew her, then, with some quiet accusation, why JH won’t answer. After the second CWK-ssi, and as JH continues to question her motivations, WK stiffens more and blinks less. This is her usual upset dissociative body language.
WK's emotions are subtle sometimes, but she consistently gets upset if she feels JH's shutting her out. Early on, when JH shut down WK’s attempt to talk poetry-murders in front of SY, she grew v curt with him, but softened when he explained why poetry was no longer relevant. Similarly, she gave him the cold shoulder after he didn’t believe her child-in-the-centre theory, but grudgingly responded when he called out to her first. Much later, after JH had switched back to CWK-ssi, after WK told the cops her RC-truck-driver theory, she immediately became defensive towards him specifically, asking “Do you not believe me, Det. Kang?”, and calmed when he explained his reasoning.
Imo, JH's importance to WK is linked to how WK's stepmum, dad, & ex-husband emotionally repressed her for so long. WK’s loved ones always told her to forget the bad things, to move on, to get a grip, etc. She could never fully assert her feelings, because it got waved off as her being oversentimental or crazy or remembering things that didn’t happen.
JH, on the other hand, has always listened to everything WK has to say, even when he didn't agree. Not only that, he validated her feelings by saying of course she’d be upset, of course she wasn’t crazy, of course she should look into it. Even during disagreements, he's never shouted her down or ignored her. He always lets her be heard.
That's why I call JH her emotional stabiliser, bc his role as her confidant has given WK confidence but also made her more sensitive to his opinion.
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Hobakky
January 10, 2019 at 7:04 AM
@fishnchips I apologize in advance. This was supposed to be a short reply but I completely failed to curb my tongue lol
Reply (1/3)
I think for the most part we're on the same page. I guess the main point I'm trying to get at is I think JH's way of addressing WK is significant to him because it's an indicator of familiarity which, as we both agree, affects his ability to work on this case; however, I don't view it as significant to WK because I don't think it's a sign of closeness. JH's use of WK-ssi makes sense to me because his relationship with her is not defined by her profession. Therefore, using her first name to address her instead of her title of seonsaengnim seems to me to be simply a way of acknowledging he knows her, nothing more.
That's not to say it couldn't mean more. You're right that there are plenty of examples of couples that continue to use more formal ways of address with each other even after dating. In fact, if the JH/WK ship were to become real I would expect them to continue addressing each other as WK-ssi and Detective/JH-ssi. I believe the distinction between "familiar" and "close" in these cases though becomes purely behavioral and situational based, rather than lingual.
I think you and I both agree that there are multiple reasons, completely exclusive of his use of her first name, that indicate JH and WK have some level of a close relationship. I think what we’re disagreeing on is whether that level of closeness is significant enough to affect how WK feels about the use of her name. I view JH’s regression to CWK-ssi as a sign that he’s trying to make it clear that he’s a police officer who’s simply not holding anyone above suspicion, whereas you seem to view it as some kind of violation of trust.
During his questioning of her, you interpreted WK’s body language as being upset, but I saw it completely differently. I thought she was anxious and uncertain herself, and therefore uncomfortable about the questioning, but not downright offended by the implication that she’s Red Cry. Just because JH has been supportive of her regarding the girl in the green dress and they’ve got a bit of a camaraderie going on, it doesn’t mean she’s no longer a POI to him, or at least it shouldn’t. I think JH was in the right for distancing himself from her in that conversation and that WK is mature enough to understand that he was just trying to do his job and so she needn’t take it personally.
Hobakky
January 10, 2019 at 7:06 AM
@fishnchips Reply (2/3)
I’ve also still yet to be convinced that WK doesn’t suspect herself as Red Cry, or at the very least capable of being a Red Cry, and I believe JH senses that about her as well. Though she says she’s incapable of murder, it’s undeniable that she and Red Cry have a loooot of similarities and the loss/fabrication of her childhood memories is taking a toll on her self-identity right now. How can she be so sure that she’s different from Red Cry when every day she’s discovering more lies about herself and it’s becoming clearer that she’s harboring some kind of terrible hidden past? That’s another reason why I don’t think she’d be hurt by JH’s aggressive questioning, but possibly a little unsettled by it.
So, basically, I think the two of them are close in the sense that they know more than the average stranger would know about someone (at least when it comes to WK knowledge. We all still know next to nothing about JH) and have been in life-threatening situations together. But I don’t think they’re close enough yet for the way they address each other to matter beyond a cordial friendship. It’d be a different story for me if JH started referring her as WK-ssi when speaking to other people, but as far as I can tell he’s mostly following the general rule that you use the full name/title when speaking about someone and use first name/title when speaking directly to someone. Everything is up to free interpretation though so it’s possible you’re seeing something I don’t.
The only thing I have to completely disagree with you on is JH’s decision to use Lee Eun Ho and Jeon Soo Young. I may not have any kind of education regarding honorifics, but I do have enough personal experience with them to say with certainty that just because someone is younger it doesn’t give you the free pass to address them by their full name like that. It’s not necessarily something that someone will call you out on, but it’s considered to be standard manners that unless you are close, or have some other good reason for doing so, you don’t address a person in that way.
Hobakky
January 10, 2019 at 7:09 AM
@fishnchips Reply (3/3)
JH’s use of Lee Eun Ho by itself is uncalled for and combined with his use of banmal can be interpreted as condescending to him. Unless you are speaking to a child, -ssi is the standard polite form of address you are expected to use when speaking to anyone, younger or older, when not using a title. Just as JH’s use of WK-ssi is a sign of his bias in favor of her, JH’s choice to not use EH-ssi is a sign of his bias against EH.
JH’s previous familiarity with EH was as a POI, not a personal relationship, so there’s no reason for him to call his name like that. In fact, it’s actually even more important that he uses EH-ssi to address him since he is otherwise letting on that he is treating him as a prior criminal suspect right off the bat when he should be considering the Boy A case and Red Cry case completely separate, especially since EH was declared innocent in their prior meetings. This is just another example of how JH lets personal emotions interfere with his work.
Soo Young’s case is very similar to EH’s in that it is not encouraged to speak to your co-worker the way JH speaks to her. He should be addressing her as Officer Jeon Soo Young out of respect for her position as a fellow police officer, even if she is his subordinate. Also, SY’s use of highest speech when speaking to JH is the proper expected standard considering she’s a rookie officer and was just transferred to this station which makes her at the bottom of the hierarchy chain right now. Perhaps she will lower her speech a tad when JH finally decides to accept her as his partner.
I think the show is trying to portray JH as this gruff police officer that doesn’t place much value on propriety so he gets a lot of leeway with how he speaks to people. He kind of gives me School 2013 Namsoon/Heungsoo vibes in that he talks rough with certain people, but at some point it becomes clear that the roughness became a sign of endearment, like with the techie. In general though, my experiences have always given me the impression that any kind of professional environment or relationship calls for polite speech regardless of age or rank. Even teachers have to use polite speech with their students instead of banmal. JH definitely has professionalism issues, but since this is a drama he gets away with it.
fishnchips
January 16, 2019 at 6:20 PM
@hobakky Lol, if anything I’m sorry bc my replies are both long & sporadic.
(1/3)
I agree, our WK-ssi dissent boils down to 1) suffixes 2) WK’s reaction.
On WK-ssi vs CWK-ssi, I think you see it as ‘Miss Lucy Jones’ vs ‘Miss Lucy’, whereas (particularly bc of circumstances) I see it as ‘Miss Jones’ vs ‘Lucy’.
I saw what JH did more as going back on what he’d said. Ofc, JH never told WK he trusted her beyond suspicion, but he said it plenty well enough indirectly, not just w/ how he addressed her, but how he treated her. WK knew it too, which is why when JH said his job was to suspect everyone, she almost smilingly asked, ‘Am I included?’.
This is where JH really did wrong tbh, bc what he said was ‘Of course,’ but what he did was outright smile at her, like it was a private joke. That, more than anything, expressed her POI-on-paper status. That’s why him both addressing a friend distantly + revoking her paper-POI status was interpersonally hurtful.
That said, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree since 1 & 2 are both subjective lol.
Note: I never thought JH was implying WK=RC at that time? If you’re referring to your personal take & not mine, then sorry for misunderstanding ^^;
On honorifics, I was referring to specific norms applicable in JH’s circumstances, but it’s my bad for not elaborating (I was trying so hard to keep it short lol). There are diff norms in diff situations, but it seems like you’re not familiar w/ some that I am. Not saying my knowledge is all-comprehensive, just going on what I know. (Note: Will be using Korean ages throughout.)
First, -ssi isn’t universally applicable; it & plain full name are offensive w/ superiors. Plain full name isn’t inherently rude; ppl comfortable w/ banmal but not close enough to drop the surname will use it, as do some uni profs (plain name & name-ssi are also common) for students.
Idk who told you teachers don’t use banmal? Maybe in uptight places, but generally, teachers only use polite speech in lectures; w/ individual students it’s banmal + plain names. Maybe you meant uni profs? But even they’ll use polite speech or banmal w/ individual students, depending on age gap & prof personality.
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fishnchips
January 16, 2019 at 6:21 PM
@hobakky (2/3)
This is bc many adults automatically use banmal w/ ppl at haksaeng age, right up to early 20s uni. Some adults stop at 20y.o HS grads, but the general trend is significantly older + young haksaeng age = drop w/o a 2nd thought.
Technically, any older person could drop w/ a younger, but common courtesy (this is what you referred to) is you don’t drop before it’s natural, &/or asking permission. But what’s ‘natural’ will change with circumstance or perspective (this is what I referred to).
The haksaeng drop is bc many adults think early 20s are no different from teens, so they feel banmal’s natural. Similarly, many elderly ppl use banmal w/ all youngers, whether a 40 y.o cop or a 20 y.o cashier. Ofc, a 45 y.o could see a 30 y.o as a kid too, however their immediate dropping is criticised, whereas the last 2 are viewed as exceptions. Ppl think ‘yeah, it is kinda natural’, & hence it’s not seen as rude.
Meeting someone before a certain age creates an instant familiarity. That’s why banmal’s so common between & towards young ppl. If you met a young just once, you’d naturally use banmal, & if you met them again years later, you’d still use it bc that familiarity is still valid.
I have no IRL sources on cop culture beside military norms, so take this bit with a grain of salt. These are trends I've noticed in cop dramas since 2007, which I think are fair representations of the kdrama!cop norm.
Police stations aren't high-speech-all-around places, likely bc of military influence (low speech to juniors, high speech to superiors) & strong comradery (low speech between close friends or same-ranks). When cops use work titles, it’s surname+rank, but using first or full names w/ juniors is extremely common.
With citizens, I've seen:
Haeyoche (informal high): used w/ all adults. this is also what ppl use for cops.
Hapsyoche (formal high): sometimes use for elderly or officials.
Haeche (banmal): for younguns. young cops stop at 19-20, older cops stop at early 20s.
The 3rd trend is very much like the IRL haksaeng drop between citizens, so I've no reason to think all cops in multiple dramas are being rude to random youths, and simply assume that that and other social norms carried over.
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fishnchips
January 16, 2019 at 6:22 PM
@hobakky
(3/3)
Coming to show-specific stuff. I initially assumed JH was 30 & EH was 22 but double-checked & found I had them too young. Having since calculated/noted proper ages, I realised the banmal’s purely bc of their first meeting.
Rn, JH should be 35 (or older, but I’m sticking to a conservative estimate) & EH 27. MG is 17-18, so it’s been 5-6 years. Back then, MG was 12, EH was 21-22, & JH was 29-30.
Had EH been 24, JH would’ve likely just used haeyoche. But as it was, EH was 1-2 years out of highschool, & JH was a srg if not lt going on 30. JH didn’t even suspect EH at first, so it would’ve been normal for him to use haeche at their first meeting, just like he did with young MG & the truck driver. Again, it’s the ‘natural’ perspective.
And bc meeting someone when they’re young is taken as familiarity, JH still uses haeche w/ full-grown MG & older EH, years later. Hence he refers to himself as a hyung when he advises EH to stay away from the director. But bc JH met EH at an older age than MG, he doesn’t feel v close & thus uses his full name vs MG’s first. He’d likely do the same with the truck driver.
JH does drop his honorifics w/ ppl to be rude sometimes, but he goes back to polite speech when the moment passes, bc he knows he should. His way of addressing EH tho is consistent & perfectly natural considering their past history.
Finally, I referred to SY bc she uses hapsyoche with everyone like she's in the army, when haeyoche would've been just fine and still polite. During my rewatch to find ages, I was actually delighted to note SY’s slowly been using more haeyoche since ep 20. In current eps, it’s her dominant speech level w/ JH & techie.
A few more fun things I’d missed:
JH used WK-ssi before his ‘GGD must be someone u know’ line, so quickly & casually I couldn’t believe my ears. But it was too natural for it to be his first time, so he must’ve dropped off-screen, sometime after finding HN but before that convo.
Better yet, JH is also guilty of doing this with SY! I finally noticed he called her by name when asking her to come eat in ep 22. I’m even happier now that he’s really treating her like one of his kids in current eps, but I really wish he’d enunciate properly so I didn’t have to catch these things on the 4th rewatch X’D
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Hobakky
January 16, 2019 at 9:35 PM
Lol no offense taken for the long responses. I obviously also have a problem with being brief so I totally get it^^ I swear I'm going to keep it shorter this time though!
You’re right about the Miss Lucy Jones vs. Miss Lucy difference, since that is generally how I think of the use of –ssi. But I also think it can vary between Miss Lucy and plain Lucy depending on certain situations. Honestly though, 90% of my experiences with addressing people/seeing other people address people has always been through use of titles so it’s hard for me to really make a judgement on this. I should probably just ask one of my old colleagues about it someday.
The impression I’ve gotten about the use of cheondetmal and banmal is that it’s about both age and social status, and that social status trumps age. The reason I say this is because I lived in Korea for a time and worked with and was close with people often 20-30 years older than me and I don’t think anyone ever used banmal with me. In fact, I’m pretty sure our entire office used cheondetmal with each other regardless of age and I suspect it’s because it was a way of showing respect for everyone’s title. Even our principals used polite speech with everyone else despite being the highest social rank in the school, which is why I assumed it is the norm for workplaces and similarly professional environments at least. I’m not sure if I just happened to be surrounded by a lot of particularly polite people, but I kind of get the sense that dramas can often be very liberal with their depictions of reality in general.
Because I used to work in a middle school that’s how I know that it’s not necessarily a given that teachers use banmal with children. I had a few colleagues that never used banmal, but I think many did drop the “yo” when speaking to kids outside of the classroom. I had the awkward realization one day that I was the only one that spoke to them in banmal all the time… Again, I think this is because social relationship trumps age, unless you’re elderly- being a senior citizen trumps all lol.
Hobakky
January 16, 2019 at 9:37 PM
@fishnchips Reply (2/2)
In the general public though I think your explanation is spot-on. It makes sense to me that JH would initially use plain name with EH and MG because they were just random kids. But when meeting EH again as a working professional to working professional I would have expected him to change his way of treating him to reflect that. I think JH’s way of speaking is an expression of personality, especially with him considering his team as his “kids,” so I guess from that perspective maybe he wasn’t being outright rude. But, police officer or not, I’m not so keen to believe it’s wholly professional.
Interesting point about military influence on police btw. I’ve actually been in a Korean police station before, but sadly can’t remember anything linguistically about the experience. I think it involved satoori though so I guess there’s not much use to remembering it…
Anyway, I’m just trying to give another perspective. You definitely have much more education on the matter than I do and I’m certainly no expert on it, so it’s probably best if I don’t talk about it anymore. Thanks for taking the time to explain things and allowing me to indulge in long ramblings about it though! I love language related discussions^^
Also, drat! I was so close to getting this all in 1 reply!
fishnchips
January 17, 2019 at 12:18 PM
@hobakky Lol, well hey I think we both did a fine job w/ a complex topic ^^
And oh, I got the impression you’re used to a formal environment! Lol, I wanted to mention, but felt it’d be presumptuous. But I'd hate it if you felt discouraged to share; I only meant to emphasise there’s no one set of rules, but differing norms across a wide spectrum. Your experience is one of them.
Formal education neglects many norms in diff situations tbh, I picked up most useful things from natives/other learners discussions, articles, forums (you’d be surprised how often Koreans ask each other what speech level to use lol), etc. The NITKL site has an awesome guide on titles, a bit old-fashioned/formal, but still referenced.
It’s harder bc while there’re general trends, there isn't always consistency. (Exhibit A: some of your colleagues not dropping -yo, when many others did.) Like, I’ve not seen anyone object to teachers using banmal, but oh, the cat fights over uni profs. ‘All profs use banmal’, ‘no prof uses banmal’, ‘it depends on how old the prof is’, ‘well MY school taught me to be a respectful member of society’. X'D
Similarly, for teachers & heads I’ve heard of -nida (hapsyoche) with most colleagues, while older colleagues use -yo (haeyoche) and sometimes banmal. I’ve heard of a head using banmal to all the teachers, while all the teachers use -yo. It’s a spectrum.
You’re right in that high-speech is likely w/ high status, but work culture decides the rest, as even respected professions may use low speech w/ juniors. It's power dynamics tbh, which I guess is why there's no guaranteeing same norms in similar workplaces. E.g. some salarymen wouldn’t dream of calling their juniors by plain name, while others easily will.
W/ Korean cops, I get the feeling being both authority figures and public servants puts them on more of an equal-footing with civilians. (Well, lesser considering how much cop abuse ppl get away with.) What interests me IRL is how cops & citizens seem to mutually use -yo & social titles like ‘ajussi’ or ‘agassi’, which is v diff compared to other civil servants. It reminds me of how local shopkeepers and customers address each other.
When coupled w/ drama trends, I lean towards the idea of the cop-civilian norm being addressing each other as you normally would. Tbh, I’ve never bothered to investigate if those trends hold up IRL, but I really should find time to see how much art imitates life lol.
But seriously, I hope I haven't put you off discussing languages. We foreign learners must learn from each other and stick together!
another woodalchi nicole recruit
January 4, 2019 at 2:58 PM
....or does it mean he is just trying not to show that he suspects her still?
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fishnchips
January 5, 2019 at 3:54 AM
Nah, I don't think so. JH as I've understood him is very transparent about whether he's keeping a distance or showing more familiarity. His interactions with Eun-Ho in recent episodes, for example, show how quickly his attitude reflects his inner thoughts.
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11 PeepsLeAwesomePotato
January 3, 2019 at 7:29 PM
"eung-ae, eung-ae, eung-ae... duk."
Creepy.
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growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:31 PM
😰 Chilling 😱
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Midnight
January 3, 2019 at 10:55 PM
It is very sad that this scene convinced me that Hana has the full potential to turn into a horrifying sociopath later in life. I hope she gets a very thorough counseling.
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12 growingbeautifully
January 3, 2019 at 7:44 PM
This is a note to @mary ... I've been wondering for some time about the banner of this Recap thread. Other banners are of the show itself and have the Favorite option, but Red Moon Blue Sun has the generic Dramabeans banner only. Is there a bit of a problem in having the banner?
Also the dropdown list of previous episodes never comes up on Red Moon recaps, again, unlike for other recapped shows. Just thought I'd ask and see if these could be fixed, in case no one brought this up to attention yet. 😃
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mary
January 4, 2019 at 5:03 AM
Oh, I noticed that and forgot about it! Thank you for tagging me!
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growingbeautifully
January 4, 2019 at 5:49 AM
Hi @mary I'm glad you've read this. You're welcome!
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13 Kurama
January 3, 2019 at 9:11 PM
The stepmother is a very intriguing character. She's very cold but I don't think she always is mean or wrong. For example, when she talks about WK's daughter, it's not very kind of her but I don't think she was wrong. WK seems to hold all the misery of the world on her shoulders and if her daughter doesn't know why, she can feel it. She's ready to spend a lot of money for the sister's cares when she could have the opportunity to get rid of her. She clearly is hidding something from the past and I'm curious to know who she's protecting herself? WK? Their father?
Poor JH, so close of the killer and the truth.
I don't like the old director. He looks more like an abuser himself than a Red Cry.
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14 luzitania
January 3, 2019 at 9:15 PM
Not going to lie, mystery aside, I really enjoyed mulling in my head how a website like Red Cry's would work. As a software engineer, I was a bit baffled first by the idea of ids used for multiples people, but then by going over it, I think the possibility is there. Users can still have a unique id (for user session and which is never displayed to the users) while having a randomly assigned username (from H1 to H5). Anyhow, I am always curious to see if movies/tv shows can get the tech right.
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15 shach
January 4, 2019 at 12:45 AM
If We should treat every detail in the show as a clue than, I don't belive EunHo is a Red Cry, because he would never left HaNa on the barn floor at that weather and in the night.
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16 AlexDanno
January 4, 2019 at 6:48 AM
What a great episode! It's getting more and more complicated, though. I was surprised at the ease with which the police used Woo-Kyung to set up a trap for Red Cry. Did the bag contain real information? If it did, they're complicit in endangering more people. If it didn't? Woo-Kyung will now be in danger for trying to arrange a set-up.
Then again, I'm pretty sure Red Cry has some access to Haneul Centre's computers and database. They would probably know of Woo-Kyung, and know that she spends a lot of time around Ji-Heon, talking with him or working with him. Her login uses her name, using a direct invite from another member. I'm pretty sure Red Cry knows who she is, and might even have suspected a set-up.
From the ease with which they whipped Ji-Heon's butt, I'd guess it's a guy of between 20 and 40 years old. The fact that they were holding a wrench concerned me, since it's a maintenance tool, and Eun-Ho is already a suspect. They seemed to relish taking Ji-Heon down as well.
That scene between Eun-Ho and Ji-Heon was intense. I actually like Eun-Ho a lot, and hope he isn't Red Cry for his sake. I'm sympathetic towards him when Ji-Heon seems determined to suspect him above and beyond what seems reasonable (like the line-up), but at the same time I respect Ji-Heon's intuition and dogged determination because at the end of the day I suspect Eun-Ho too.
Eun-Ho had a distinct edge of nastiness when he was talking to Ji-Heon, and it's just enough and just tempered enough to make you think 'I understand why but I'm uncomfortable'. N is doing a fantastic portrayal here.
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Karmen ~ 🍜🏢🎭 ~ 📚☔🦋 ~ 🪂🌱💘 ~ ✨🍊💫 ~
January 4, 2019 at 9:14 AM
I, too, fear that RC will find out soon that WK "betrayed" them to help the police and that the woman will soon be "judged" by them.
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psycho 🍉
January 4, 2019 at 4:57 PM
Their plan seems to be a bit rushed shouldn't they have at least put a tracker in the envelope then tried to follow him or something, there's a possibility it wasn't Red Cry but an accomplice of his, they really didn't think it through.
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17 another woodalchi nicole recruit
January 4, 2019 at 2:59 PM
Do we have any real insight into Ji-Heon's past yet? Family history, etc?
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growingbeautifully
January 5, 2019 at 3:26 AM
Unfortunately no. A few of us have been asking for backstory of both JH and Soo Young. 😔
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18 psycho 🍉
January 4, 2019 at 4:22 PM
Ha Na's cheerfulness was a bit unsettling but I don't think screaming in her face to cry is the way to go to me that scene was in service of Soo Young rather than Ha Na. Maybe it is too soon but I want see her talk about happened to her not just to help the police but actually express in her own words however simple how she felt.
I hope this is not the last we see of her, I want to see her getting help and attending therapy sessions and being cheerful and playing with other kids.
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19 Snowflower
January 5, 2019 at 12:33 AM
thank you for the recap! This drama is truly amazing.
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